Federally Designated Gun-Free Zones As Effective As Ever

Goulds-FL-Post-Office-33170-1024x768

Reader Chris writes:

Today I had to ship a package via USPS for work so I headed to the nearest post office. This location has bullet proof glass at the counter…funny I thought guns couldn’t enter federally designated gun free zones. As I always do, I parked across the street, removed my concealed carry gun and stowed it in my glove box. I then got my package and proceeded into the building . . .

As I entered the counter area I noticed on the door a $50K reward for an attempted armed robbery that happened just a few weeks before at that very post office (notice the bullet-proof glass to the right). It was at that point I thought to myself jokingly “I’m glad I had to disarm myself before entering this building!”

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I proceeded to the counter, but one of my packages was too large to pass through the double-sided “safety” window. The postal worker told me he would be unable to accept the package and that I would have to find a different location.

I asked him if he could open the side receiving door so I could give it to him, but he refused. He then told me about the attempted robbery that had happened and that he couldn’t open the doors for anyone. For his own safety.

So I asked, well what about my safety? He shrugged his shoulders and said he couldn’t help me and to have a nice day. Which is apparently close enough for government work.

 

comments

  1. avatar Ralph says:

    The USPS would make Franz Kafka very proud.

  2. avatar Mike says:

    I never ship anything from the Post Office. I always use UPS or Fedex. That way I can be sure the package gets there. Had one too many failure to deliver from them.

    1. avatar Mike in OK says:

      +1. If it’s bigger than a letter it goes with Fed Ex or UPS.

    2. avatar hobbez says:

      With UPS and FedEx being triple the cost, or more, than USPS shipping, for no better or faster shipping, I do all of my shipping, except for ammo, with USPS. However, I do not go into post offices. A quick trip to usps.com will let you put in your address and check a few boxes and then have your local mail carrier pick up your packages, deliver stamps to your door, and bring you free shipping boxes. No muss, no fuss, no taking off my carry gun to go inside.

      1. avatar JasonM says:

        And they lose money on every package. So the more you use USPS, the sooner it will go away.

        1. avatar Richard In WA says:

          The more you use USPS, the more tax dollars go toward a government agency that will NEVER go away.

    3. avatar Jonathan - Houston says:

      For economy shipping, Fedex partners with the USPS to have them carry the package from the post office to the home. So some people are still dealing with the post office, even though they shipped via Fedex.

    4. avatar RalphAN says:

      You do realize that USPS delivers a ton of packages for UPS and FedEx? I’m a custodian at the local Post Office near the town where I live and I see these trucks dropping off shipments daily at our post office for our carriers to deliver.

      1. avatar The Old Coach says:

        So what was alleged to be overnight shipping now becomes 4 day shipping. Fedex delivered to the USPS overnight, sure enough. Tracking showed turnover at about 09:00 on Friday. USPS didn’t give a damn. I got the shipment the following Tuesday.

  3. avatar Paul53 says:

    Worked in an ER where the triage area was protected by bullet proof glass. A security guard pointed out that the walls surrounding the glass were NOT bullet proof. Bummer!

  4. avatar Raul Ybarra says:

    Your tax dollars at work.

    And don’t forget, he’s likely earning 30% more than you and will actually be able to look forward to retiring. (You however will be expected to cheerfully work until you’re 80 to pay for his service.)

    1. avatar Rad Man says:

      The USPS budget is funded entirely by postage sales. Your tax dollars are not at work there at all.

      1. avatar styrgwillidar says:

        I thought they were running a deficit, with that coming out of general taxpayer funds. (Well, more accurately put on credit adding to our federal deficit since it’s funding in addition to what was authorized in the budget)

        1. avatar Tom in Oregon says:

          Yup. They run in the red every year. Just like amtrack

      2. avatar JasonM says:

        …except they don’t have to pay any corporate income taxes.
        …or property taxes.
        …and they get government discounts on their purchases of vehicles and other equipment.
        …and they have a legally granted monopoly on first class mail.
        …and when they lose money, congress votes to “loan” them more at 0% interest, with no repayment requirement.

        But yeah, they’re just like a private sector shipper.

        1. avatar Curtis in IL says:

          Just to be fair, I would point out that a for-profit corporation with a negative net income will also pay no corporate income taxes.

          The more you learn about the way USPS does business, the easier it is to understand why they’re losing milions of dollars a day.

      3. avatar Ted says:

        This is only true if you ignore the USPS huge unfunded pension liability:

        From the GAO:

        At the end of fiscal year 2013, USPS had about $100 billion in unfunded liabilities: $85 billion in unfunded liabilities for benefits, including retiree- health, pension, and workers’ compensation liabilities, and $15 billion in outstanding debt to the U.S. Treasury—the statutory limit.

        Who, exactly, do you think is going to be on the hook for these pensions? I’ll tell you who – the taxpayers.

        1. avatar Ing says:

          I heard that they were ordered to pre-fund all their future liabilities at 100%, which is unheard of either in gov’t or the private sector. Generally, companies establish a sustainable investment level that lets them pay off those future liabilities like any other debt (at least, in my limited understanding that’s how it works).

          By the arbitrary standards the USPS is being held to, nearly every major corporation in the world would be broke.

        2. avatar Bob102 says:

          Of course, that assumes the government doesn’t get “Greeced”, default on its obligations, and crash. Some day, this debt will come due, and many people aren’t going to get what they were promised. I see it is happening now, but on a smaller scale. I was promised VA medical benefits as a part of my service in the military. I planned to use that benefit when I retired. The US changed the rule recently. Since I made more than $65K in a year, I will not be able to claim it. Welcome to our new reality. Do not expect the US government to fulfill its promises to its people.

  5. avatar Grindstone says:

    Never had a single problem with my local USPS office. Cheaper and faster than UPS. Also, concealed is concealed.

    1. avatar JoshinGA says:

      “Concealed is concealed” until its not and you get a one way trip to Club Fed for not adhering to their rules.

      1. avatar Sammy^ says:

        ^^^^^^^^^^ And you will never be able to legally own a firearm again.

        1. avatar Mark N. says:

          Yup, it’s a felony. Although the risk of getting caught is pretty small, the consequences being caught are severe. Personally, I would lose my freedom, my guns, and my professional license, meaning my means of making a living after release. Simply not worth the risk. And P.S.: A federal court has upheld the ban on guns in USPS parking lots. You are warned.

        2. avatar cmonnow says:

          @Mark N.

          Yup, it’s a felony.

          No, it’s NOT a felony. Why do people keep repeating this? Because other people keep repeating it?

        3. avatar Retired LEO says:

          This pretty much sums it up as to felony or ability to ever again posess a firearm

          U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 44 › § 930

          Current through Pub. L. 114-19. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)

          US Code
          Notes
          Authorities (CFR)
          (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
          (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
          (c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
          (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
          (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
          (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
          (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
          (e)
          (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
          (2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
          (f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.
          (g) As used in this section:
          (1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
          (2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.
          (3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
          (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a)

        4. avatar cmonnow says:

          @Sammy^

          And you will never be able to legally own a firearm again.

          False. Please don’t definitively write about things you know nothing about.

        5. avatar In4apennyIn4apound says:

          @Mark N–“Personally, I would lose my freedom, my guns, and my professional license, meaning my means of making a living after release”

          Thank you sir for illustration how free Americans were able to be enslaved without cracking a whip.

        6. avatar cmonnow says:

          @Retired LEO, Mark N., Sammy^:

          U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 44 › § 930
          words
          stuff
          words

          That applies to Federal agencies, which the USPS hasn’t been since 1971. The applicable law is 39 C.F.R. § 232.1(l), and it’s not a felony. It’s still a crime, and you’ll probably lose your CCW, but you won’t lose your gun rights. See 39 C.F.R. § 232.1(p)(2) and 18 U.S.C. 3571.

          I’d advise against it, but it’s not a felony.

        7. avatar Retired LEO says:

          Then you better tell the U.S. attorneys office in Charlotte and the postal inspectors, as they cited it. It’s considered the same as Amtrak a government owned business.

        8. avatar cmonnow says:

          @Retired LEO

          Then you better tell the U.S. attorneys office in Charlotte and the postal inspectors, as they cited it. It’s considered the same as Amtrak a government owned business.

          First, the USPS is not a government-owned corporation like Amtrak (see: USPS v. Flamingo Industries). And, if USPS property is already covered by 18 U.S. Code § 930 as a felony, then why did the feds feel the need to also write 39 C.F.R. § 232.1(l) which defines the same crime but with a significantly lesser penalty?

          And why do people feel the need to dig in their heels and stand by their misinformation? Because spreading bad information sure isn’t helping anyone.

        9. avatar Retired LEO says:

          Not digging in heels just saying who info came from. I personally can’t afford to be a test case if you can get a 2A friendly lawyer to take take a case pro bono or NRA(not likely) more power too you. With our gun loving Governor now becoming a Dixiecrat, and privately campaigning with a few state reps to make sure we don’t get OC or constitutional carry. Having enough keeping us a red state, as the NY, NJ crowd is incoming for taxes. Fudd city

    2. avatar Gunr says:

      The only problem I have with them is the super inflated insurance rates, which amount to almost 3% for $100 worth of insurance.
      I spoke to big wig at the Eugene, OR Post Office, and he admitted the package loss was far below 3%, but they needed the money to subsidies other areas that were operating at a loss.

      1. avatar barnbwt says:

        Their crap service also damages a lot of stuff, so that 3% is probably about right

        1. avatar BigDinVT says:

          I’ve had lost packages from UPS and late deliveries (that were guaranteed for delivery on a date) with FedEx. Two of the late deliveries involved Private Branch Exchange (PBX) telephone systems for which I had contracted personnel sitting on their hands waiting for the equipment to install. Another situation involved an indoor electric grille that installs into countertop. I knew the item couldn’t have weighed over 50 lbs but FedEx insisted they needed an eighteen wheeler to deliver it. I waited three days before they had a truck freed up. It was comical to see the driver open the door and have only a 2.5 x 2.5 x 3 ft package sitting in the middle of the empty trailer.

          I do as little work with FedEx as possible and I’m persistently leery of UPS.

          BTW, I have heard that part of the challenge the USPS faces is the fact that congress will not allow them to shut down unprofitable post offices.

    3. avatar JasonM says:

      Concealed is concealed. And illegal is illegal.

      When I lived in Phoenix, there was a local greeting card store (near the Safeway at 7th & Bell for you locals) that had a postal counter in the back. The back room counted as a post office. The store area where the customers stood did not. I went there every time I shipped something. (They were also closer, quicker, and more courteous than the Deer Valley post office).

    4. avatar Evan in Dallas says:

      “Faster” is anecdotal at best. Anything over letter size that I’ve sent rarely gets there. I would say it’s probably just the average speed or inconsistent.

  6. avatar Shire-man says:

    Seems like a good opportunity to dump a bunch of “why waste money and harm service on bullet proof glass when there are no guns allowed in the post office?” letters on every local pol’s desk, the reps desks, local editorial pages and anywhere else applicable.

    Just getting one of these anti jackasses on record saying “unfortunately, establishing a gun free zone does not keep guns out of said zone” would be well worth the effort.

    1. avatar Evan in Dallas says:

      Notice the bullet proof glass lack of service and the reward for the people that robbed THEM. This is what the government generally thinks of serving you and how they care much more about their own property. If someone robs your house they aren’t putting a CSI team together with a $50K reward. They will “let you know if they hear something.”

  7. avatar chris says:

    Glad I could contribute to ttag!!

    1. avatar In4apennyIn4apound says:

      Good example of showing how Law abiding Americans are neutered and comfortable in their chains.

      Exactly why in “1984” the proles were free to ignore the laws, because WE outer party members have to follow the law or WE lose our social status at the hands of state sanctioned agents with guns..

      1. avatar Kelly in GA says:

        You, sir, are a jackass.

        1. avatar In4apennyIn4apound says:

          You sir are part of the problem if you think the authors article is any resemblance of exercising his Second Amendment.

          Kelly you are just a gun owner, and not a supporter of the Second Amendment.

  8. avatar Gman says:

    Is not the mere presence of bullet proof glass an admission of the inefficacy of the gun free zone? But of course, their patrons “Feel” safer with the sign in place.

    1. avatar Gman says:

      New headline Dan-
      USPS Admits Gun Free Zone designation is ineffectual – Installs bullet proof glass for employee protection. Of course, you’re on your own for your own protection.

      1. avatar JoshinGA says:

        “you’re on your own for your own protection.” And if you bring a gun in violation of our rule to protect yourself, we’ll send you to federal prison for several decades, and make you a felon for life.

  9. avatar Cloudbuster says:

    Glad I don’t live in the kind of ****hole that has to have bulletproof glass at the post office.

    1. avatar Gunr says:

      What country do you live in?

      1. avatar SteveInCO says:

        I don’t know where he lives, but I live in Colorado, near Colorado Springs, and have never seen it.

      2. avatar JasonM says:

        I’ve never seen it in Columbia (Irmo & Spring Valley), SC, Phoenix (Deer Valley), AZ, Seattle (International District), WA, or Bellevue (Factoria or Crossroads), WA. But those are also all very safe cities that have a strong tradition of gun ownership, and little or no gun control.

  10. avatar Aaron says:

    My local post office is friendly, clean, with no bulletproof glass.

    If it was like the one you described, I’d consider moving because the whole area must be pretty bad.

    1. avatar neiowa says:

      Ditto.

      The clerks are utter morons though. Have no idea how to give directions or where any particular address is located. All are out of town drones placed based on Fing Union seniority and drive miles to their featherbed position (I’d bet a donut are paid mileage).

  11. avatar Larry says:

    Except they don’t receive any tax dollars……

    I don’t mind them, anyone who’ll pick up an envelope at my East Coast house and take it cross country to Seattle Wash. Then put it on a boat and deliver it my my friends home on Bainbridge Island , all for around 50 cents is ok with me.

    Oh and the driver tosses my dog a biscuit each day as well .

    1. avatar Raul Ybarra says:

      Ok, you are giving me hope. I had thought those days long gone.

    2. avatar Gatha58 says:

      Our postal carrier is personable and give my dog a treat every day as well. Now the guys at the local USPS office are a different matter. Kind of a rude, joking demeanor. Stopped in one day at almost their quitting time. I just wanted to use a pen on one of the counters to sign something. As I walked in, one of them yelled out at me “We are closing so we can’t help you”. NOT “Sorry”, and then the statement. Just a blunt statement of fact. I said “No problem, just using a pen”. As I walked out, I thought no private business would get away with an attitude like that. And God help you if you actually want to mail a package or some other service because you will stand in line for a long time to get help. They really need to get rid of some of their entitled workers and hire people that give a damn about customer service.

      1. avatar Red In Texas says:

        Reminds me of the joke about the guy that lost his balls in combat and his first day as a USPS employee.

        Come in at 10, because we stand around drinking coffee, and scratching our balls for 2 hours out back.

    3. avatar Ted says:

      The USPS has well over $100 billion in unfunded liabilities and has run the treasury credit card right up to the limit.

      The only way the USPS will meet these obligations without taxpayer help is if everyone in the United States gives up email and starts mailing letters to each other.

      That’s about as likely as pigs flying.

      1. avatar Evan in Dallas says:

        Not quite, they are an inefficient government agency, but the biggest problem is they don’t charge real market rates for delivery and especially in remote areas. If everyone started using the post office more, they would likely just lose even more money.

    4. avatar Evan in Dallas says:

      But that is precisely why they are in the red. It is expensive to deliver from “the middle of nowhere to the middle of nowhere.” And that money has to come from somewhere.

      1. avatar Curtis in IL says:

        Back when a stamp cost 2 cents, most of the US was in the middle of nowhere and USPS managed to break even.

        Today the country is much more urbanized, postage rate increases have exceeded inflation for several years on a row, and they still lose millions of dollars a day.

  12. avatar 2AMexican says:

    If there is no metal detectors or pat down, I carry.

  13. avatar gsnyder says:

    With the sad news of the day, we are seeing more of what happens in gun-free zones and unarmed people.

  14. avatar Gatha58 says:

    Back to the original topic: Our politicians should be made aware that these prohibitions against self protection in Post Offices are ridiculous and ineffective. Cite the above armed robbery and the bulletproof glass as a prime example of this. Then we need to lobby Congress to get rid of this asinine prohibition against weapons in our Post Offices.

    1. avatar Henry says:

      Well, to be fair, it was an ATTEMPTED armed robbery, so citing it would be counterproductive.

      Of course, the irony is that almost all the shootings that occurred in Post Offices prior to the “no guns” law were committed by postal EMPLOYEES. Hence the origin of the phrase, “going postal.”

  15. avatar PeterW says:

    They should just let the postal workers carry. This has been debated for decades. I have a clipping I found from 1922 https://books.google.com/books?id=eExFAQAAMAAJ&dq=postal%20gun%20arming%20carrier&pg=PA157#v=onepage&q&f=false

    1. avatar Wood says:

      Only if everyone else can also carry on postal property and in postal buildings.

  16. avatar Retired LEO says:

    What’s amazing is USPS is technically privatized, but federal crime to mess with them & postal inspectors actually have broader powers than a U.S. Marshall. However if one of the postal employees or retired supervisors steals mail or your identity, gets $300k in credit & credit cards and a false identity card. You spend 2 years of investigation including VIDEO and they dump it and walk away saying he can’t be found even though he gets a pension from them, even the Inspector General said they were covering up. They waited until 24 hours after the statute of limitations ran out to get to it. I use the post office as little as possible. Congress either needs them to show a profit or sell off the equipment and properties to repay us the taxpayers that have supported them.

    1. avatar twency says:

      They aren’t privatized. Ever noticed mail delivery vehicles have no license plates? No private company would be allowed to drive their fleet of trucks on public roads all over the country without license plates.

      1. avatar Daily Beatings says:

        USPS is both a business and a federal agency ever since the Postal Reorganization Act of 1970.

  17. avatar Nate says:

    One of the only LE officers that has pissed me off with a “I don’t give a shit about you or your stolen goods” was a postal inspector….

  18. avatar RetiredJarhead says:

    It is striking to me how little many of you know about OpSec (Operational Security to the jargon challenged). While I would never be so forward as to insinuate any of you were Constitutionally wrong in your decision to carry wherever you darn well pleased (“shall not be infringed” and all), I would discourage anyone from bragging about it. You may think you are anonymous with a nom de plume on a gun blog, but every single post originates an electronic signature tied to your unique IP address. There are entire departments in law enforcement agencies dedicated to tracking down criminals that think they are anonymous. Why expose yourself to further risk? Do what you chose, by all means, but keep your mouth shut. Every one of you that gets caught makes the rest of us look like lawless rabble.

  19. avatar Henry says:

    “Today I had to ship a package via U_PS for work”

    There, FIFY. Also fixed your problem. 🙂

  20. avatar Roger V. Tranfaglia says:

    “Shall not be infringed” except at the post office? And other places w/no guns signs??
    BULLSHIT

  21. avatar RetiredJarhead says:

    I assume Roger wants to be the subject of a test case. I do not. Even though I agree with him, mostly. Private property owners have the absolute right to ask you to leave for ANY reason. If you refuse, at the very least, you are going to be charged with criminal trespass. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze.

  22. avatar JSJ says:

    Meh. No private business could survive under the rules congress sets for the USPS.
    USPS may be “privatized”, but it’s congress that stands in the way of closing unnecessary post offices, eliminating unnecessary employees and dumping relics like Saturday delivery. Carper/Coburn, the latest attempt at pulling USPS out of the red specifically prohibits them from closing any mail facilities for at least 2 more years. That ‘aint how it works in the real world.

  23. avatar Kyle says:

    Pretty much the only reason the USPS still exists is so the Aleutian Island chain of Alaska can have mail service for under 400.00 per letter. Silly government tax sop (Yes I know they dont get tax money, but I think we all know that’s a bunch of crap) should go the way of the horse and buggy.

  24. avatar kap says:

    Typical Political BS just like the Politicians trying do manage something they don’t know a Damn Thing about sorta like Vietnam, Iraq etc. Lead by our egg sucking Democratic Party Hoe’s,
    Funny how most of the shooting were from the inside! those dumb crooks broke the Law by bring weapons into a no gun Zone! Oh I know they couldn’t read because the Educational system is PC. and passed them any way!

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