Waco Police on Deadly Biker Brawl: We Didn’t Start It. More Inconsistencies Revealed

Bikers arrested at Twin Peaks, Waco, Texas (courtesy cnn.com)

Earlier this week, Waco Police Spokesman W. Patrick Swanton said 22 members of law enforcement were on-scene before shooting broke out at a motorcycle club gathering at the Twin Peaks restaurant. The police force included the Assistant Police Chief, ten members of the Waco SWAT unit, two sergeants and four State Troopers. Despite the fact that an autopsy of the dead has been completed, we still don’t know who shot whom. And with 169 citizens under lock-and-key pending $1m bail – each –  we’re not getting the  bikers’ side of the story. What we are getting is some extremely defensive comments from the cops. Here’s Sgt. Swanton’s most recent message to the biker community [via cnn.com] . . .

Police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton said Wednesday that three or four Waco officers probably opened fire but that it’s too early to tell how many of the dead bikers may have been struck by police bullets.

Swanton told CNN’s “Erin Burnett OutFront” after the bulletin was sent to authorities that police live with constant threats.

“Unfortunately, in our line of work, it’s something we deal with day in and day out. I would, however, like to say this, to those that are listening that are making the threats: The incident that occurred here Sunday afternoon … was an absolute tragedy,” he said. “However, those of you that were there know that we did absolutely nothing to start that. We would ask you to remember that and remind you that although you have totally different ways from us, law enforcement did not start the melee.”

Again, “those of you that were there” are all in jail. Every single one of them save one, and he ain’t talking. We’ve not seen any police body-cam video of the incident – should it exist. On Wednesday, the AP (and the AP alone) viewed restaurant security video. They report that “only” one of the dozens of bikers recorded fired a gun from the patio of the restaurant.

There’s been no footage of the parking lot, where [we believe] the victims were shot. Anyway, even if the bikers started the violence, even if they threatened the police with deadly force, that doesn’t absolve the cops from responsibility for their actions once the lead started flying.

Sgt. Swanton’s comment came after claimed threats from brother bikers bent on retribution.

Texas law enforcement officials are investigating what they say are new threats against officers from biker gangs in the wake of a recent shootout in Waco.

Members of the Bandidos biker gang who are in the military “are supplying the gang with grenades and C4 explosives,” according to a bulletin issued Thursday by the Texas Department of Public Safety and reviewed by CNN.

The bulletin warns of plots targeting high-ranking law enforcement officials and their families with car bombs. The bulletin is based on unsubstantiated information from an informant who claimed to have obtained it from Bandidos and Black Widows motorcycle gang members.

The Bandidos want to retaliate against police for shooting “their brothers” as they came out of the Twin Peaks restaurant, the bulletin says.

The gang has ordered a hit against Texas troopers and other officers, according to the bulletin. Among the threats are running over officers at traffic stops and the use of grenades and Molotov cocktails and firearms.

The bulletin includes some locations as possible targets: McLennan County Jail in Waco as well as sites in Austin, El Paso, Dallas, Corpus Christi and Houston.

We’ve also learned [via dailymail.co.uk] that not all of those killed were criminals, as the police maintained. One of the dead includes Jesus Delgado Rodriguez, a 65-year-old Marine without a criminal history. His son said he was “not violent” and rode in charity events to combat crime. Whatever that means.

It would be really nice to know the facts of this mass shooting. The police’s refusal to provide key details and the court’s decision to jail such an enormous group of witnesses, does not give one confidence that this will be the end of it. In some ways that’s good. In others that’s very, very bad. [h/t DrVino]

comments

  1. avatar Slick says:

    IIRC, those without records are there to buy firearms for other members. At least that’s the way it is with street gangs.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/2zinox/guns_gangs_and_the_glawk_40_a_primer_on_street/

  2. avatar Nicks87 says:

    “Anyway, even if the bikers started the violence, even if they threatened the police with deadly force, that doesn’t absolve the cops from responsibility for their actions once the lead started flying.”

    What is that supposed to mean? The cops didn’t have a right to self-defense? Or that they are trying to cover something up? I love how this website trashes the police every chance they get. Off-duty cops get threatened all the time. Doesn’t it make sense that maybe one of these dirt bag bikers threatened a cop that previously arrested him and it turned into a brawl which ended in a gunfight. A lot of cops ride and it’s common to see members of outlaw biker gangs out riding as well. It’s inevitable that their paths might cross eventually. I love how the civilians at TTAG automatically throw the cops under a bus before the facts even start to come out.

    1. avatar B says:

      It means we had 22 cops with rifles waiting outside of a restaurant who opened fire on an entire group with machine guns within seconds of them coming outside and then arrested every single surviving witness on $1M gag bail. It seems like none of the group mowed down actually drew a gun, it was just that one guy back on the patio. But whatever, I’m sure the media will follow up a report on this when all the facts come to light in the trial a few months down the road.

      1. avatar Nicks87 says:

        How do you know that’s what happened if all the witnesses were arrested and gagged? More speculation and cop bashing from angry TTAG tough guys.

        1. avatar BlueBronco says:

          Regardless, the Waco police are sitting on facts and video. They are either hiding something or screwed up or both.

        2. avatar Tomyironmane says:

          If it’s on the up and up, why is everyone sitting under a gag order?

        3. avatar Fuque says:

          How do you know it didnt go down that way?… Again, the uniform worshiping, badge lickers defending Cops actions Blindly, then, get defensive, and throw around the TTAG tough guy defense when Questions arise of their validity…Critical thinking isnt your strong point is it?

      2. avatar Dev says:

        Apparently some guns actually were drawn inside the restaurant if we are to believe some of the postings that staff of Twin Peaks made on their social media pages. That still doesn’t excuse the police IF they opened fire without warning, however.

      3. avatar Kent says:

        “Then all the Bandidos standing in the parking lot started pulling guns and shooting at us,” he said. “There were maybe 60 or 70 of us in the parking lot. . . . We took off running. We scattered. Three of our guys went down instantly. They caught a couple more that tripped and fell, and Bandidos were shooting at them.” . . .

        A guote from an interview with a Cossack chapter president…

        I’m looking for where he says the cops opened fire on him and his guys, but for some reason I just can’t see it…

    2. avatar Chris In Texas says:

      civilians? Just what in the Hell do you mean by that? You do know Police are civilians also. Saying shit like that is one of the reasons why this Country’s Police force is turning into a standing Army. And I’m sure you just love that ideal right?

      1. avatar Taylor TX says:

        I am not one to condone the generalist LEO hate, but this is the entire point imo. The idea of a standing “police force” is the army without a war and that is the something I think that needs quite a bit of specification. I have family that are LEOs and we have very interesting talks based on things like this. Some really believe in the Oath Keeper mentality and others not so much… I am really waiting to pass judgement on this situation until ALL the facts come out.

        1. avatar Jonathan - Houston says:

          Same here. So far, most of what I’ve read is slanderous speculation.

          Something might be amiss, as something almost always is with explosive events and their aftermath, but that does presuppose some criminal conspiracy.

          Waco P.D.’s steadfast denials, however, coupled with denial of access to the evidence, only further fuel suspicions as people fill the information void with their own fabrications. It seems enquiring minds, like Nature, abhor a vacuum.

        2. avatar NotAHater says:

          Look, I criticise the po-po justly – they’re definitely out of control in a lot of ways. But outright murderers? Well, I too reserve judgement, but like Zimmerman came out with his story on day 1 and stuck to it to the very end, these police are doing the exact opposite. They’re escalating a war instead of de-escalating it. If shit went sideways, people need to be held accountable, whether MC or LEO, and the leadership should get out in front and say it. But no, the blue wall of silence gets erected, and all the witnesses are having their civil rights violated. And by accountable, I mean the death penalty is on the table, for anyone from either side if any actions are found to not have been in self-defense. Texas still does hand out death penalties right? Even if they don’t actually perform them anymore?

          Plain and simple, it looks like the police fucked up majorly and are buying time to cover their asses.

          Maybe not the truth, but the perception after this past year is definitely not working in their favor.

          And this: Members of the Bandidos biker gang who are in the military “are supplying the gang with grenades and C4 explosives,”

          Real or just more rhetoric to buy themselves some public favor?

        3. avatar Kent says:

          Perception vs. Reality. Your comment about the events of the last year makes me wonder. Events like Ferguson? The perception of “police brutality” is quite different than the reality. The cop haters would like you to believe that the police are out of control thugs. The reality is quite different.

      2. avatar Indiana Tom says:

        You do know Police are civilians also. No. The Police are now high speed low drag Military Team 6 Operators. The Professional Elite with intensive training and skills.

      3. avatar Fuque says:

        The term ” Civilian” is used in a condescending context by Badge lickers,..Picked up by their Liberal gun control cronys. They are one in the same, just flying a different banner.

    3. avatar Cuteandfuzzybunnies says:

      What it means is that the cops have a responsability not to shoot at bad guys when they might kill innocents. They can just LEAVE. I hope the cops did not start this or murder innocents. BUT I hope this time if they did kill any innocents the biker gangs hold THE INDIVIDUAL COPSwho pulled the trigger and THE COPS ON THE SCENE THAT covered for them responsible. Murder and or torture them as needed BUT please don’t shoot at random cops. Some poor patrolman in Houston may be a dick and maybe he is a cop BUT he didn’t kill your brothers. He’s not even on the same dept. it’s not fair for him to die while some scumbag laughs as he takes the fall.

      1. avatar Kent says:

        “They can just leave”??? Really? Is that how you want law enforcement to behave? So when the riots in Baltimore, Ferguson etc. started, the cops should have just left? Your comment is a perfect example of the current climate in the U.S.. Cops will be judged and condemned by some, no matter what they do. Leave and be labeled cowards who didn’t have the guts to do their jobs, or stay and be accused of being trigger happy thugs. Do you think this might be why over 80% of LEO’s would NOT recommend police work to anyone who asks? Here is an idea, how about we wait to see what the investigation reveals.

    4. avatar MDC says:

      “I love how the civilians at TTAG automatically throw the cops under a bus before the facts even start to come out.”

      It is citizens asshole. Not civilians. Civilian is a war time term only. And them law dawgs are nothing more than citizens with a silly badge and too much camo and us v. them mentalities.

    5. avatar J.W. says:

      Civilians? Cops are civilians, as are Fire Fighters. Only the Military can use the word Civilians, as you have.
      Or am I hurting the feelings of my LEO Overlords.

    6. avatar JeremyR says:

      If you got your facts from Der Strumer, Hitler was entirely right to slaughter the Jews. As in NAZI Germany, the people controlling the narrative are not necessarily telling the TRUTH. The police story is changing faster than a six year old’s explanation about how the window got broke.
      22 police on scene, and the bikers still decided to go full on? Are these the dumbest bikers in the world?

  3. avatar Gov. William J. Le Petomane says:

    They forgot the first rule of perp shooting – form a circle before you start shooting.

    1. avatar Indiana Tom says:

      As the Boston Elite did.

  4. avatar Model 31 says:

    There is a fairly interesting debate streaming from the Texas Senate chamber concerning open carry at the moment.

  5. avatar Geoff PR says:

    169 bikers have a 1 million dollar bail *each*.

    There is no way they can realistically cough up the 100,000 each to bail out.

    Those that had jobs likely are unemployed now.

    That is going to leave the bikers with a *very* negative opinion of the legal system out there.

    I’ll be very surprised if some cops don’t get killed as a result of this BS.

    A very bad time to be LE in Texas right now.

    Especially if the autopsies show .556 – .223 wounds.

    1. avatar Grindstone says:

      How much you wanna bet that the autopsy will be 100% truthful?

      1. avatar Geoff PR says:

        $0.00

        E.O.F.

      2. avatar Tomyironmane says:

        I think the stuff that isn’t lost, damaged, “sealed” misplaced, or purposefully given to the biggest idiot in the morgue t do the autopsy will be 100% truthful.

      3. avatar Fuque says:

        It Can’t be anything but 100% correct.. Waco Insurance underwriters would drop the town in an flash if this were deemed a bad shoot…cant have 169 guys bankrupting the city because of a silly misunderstanding..

    2. avatar Kent says:

      “That is going to leave the bikers with a *very* negative opinion of the legal system out there.”

      I had to stop myself from laughing out loud at this comment. You are joking, right? Or are you really so delusional that you think that outlaw MC’s normally are big supporters of law enforcement. I especially like the comment from the guy who admits that he doesn’t know what happened but if every cop there was to be killed, it would be justice. Gee, what a thoughtful, educated opinion. Just another example of an idiot who is doing his best to push all LEO’s into the enemy camp. SMDH…

      1. avatar Geoff PR says:

        ““That is going to leave the bikers with a *very* negative opinion of the legal system out there.”

        I had to stop myself from laughing out loud at this comment. You are joking, right?”

        Not one bit, ‘Kent’.

        “Or are you really so delusional that you think that outlaw MC’s normally are big supporters of law enforcement.”

        Wrong again. Try harder.

        Starting a war with every outlaw M.C. in the state of Texas will get cops killed.

        Outlaw M.C.s happen to be quite good at dispensing murder without getting caught.

        They’re good at it, Kent. Better at it than the cops. All that dashcam video and the footage from inside the restaurant is rope that can hang the cops.

        Texas has thousands of miles of roads with no video cams on them.

        Where the Outlaw M.C.s can do what they do best.

        I’m shaking my damn head here, ‘Kent’, you’re about as dense as it gets.

        1. avatar Kent says:

          Because up to now, the outlaw M/C’s held no animosity towards law enforcement, right? If a cop was up against a 1%er and the 1%er thought he could kill the cop and get away with it, he would already. If you don’t believe that, you are kidding yourself. Are they “good at it”? Do you really think a biker gang wants to declare war on U.S. law enforcement? You want to place bets who wins that war? I know which side I am picking. You are welcome to pick theirs.

        2. avatar John in Ohio says:

          You want to place bets who wins that war?

          If our government and society were operating as designed, law enforcement ought to lose any such hypothetical “war”. Think about it for a moment. The People are supposed to be strong enough to defeat them. If everything were as it ought to be, the National Guard would need to be called in to win any such “war” (essentially putting down an insurrection). If law enforcement, on its own strength and resources, could win something like that then it is already a standing army. Are you willing to admit that you believe law enforcement today to be a de facto standing army? If so, are you okay with that?

  6. avatar barnbwt says:

    Next up, prison riot once the most credible witnesses are identified. Tragic barbeque to follow; an old Waco tradition.

  7. avatar Robb says:

    I’m not throwing the police under the bus, both my step brothers are police, but the lack of information/double talk/backpedaling and the one sided view of it is concerning. I’ve driven past that strip mall numerous times since it came into existence and the lack of video footage from that area is concerning.

    And the idea that they were there under peaceful pretenses under the confederation of clubs banner is a joke. That organization is a facade. The club webpage features a pic of a guy wearing a 1%er patch on the leadership page (http://txcocinews.org/notes-from-our-leaders.html) for goodness sake.

    The whole thing stinks to high heaven. I doubt we will ever know the full truth.

  8. avatar Icabod says:

    ” Biker lives matter?”

    1. avatar cag404 says:

      Beat me to it!

  9. avatar Dave in VA says:

    Tin foil hat? Check. Cop bashing? Check.

    I’ve come to ignore most of the anti-law enforcement, pro-cop bashing on TTAG; especially from Farago. When did TTAG become pro-1%er? Is there anything the police could do that would inspire your confidence? I doubt it. Let’s just throw more speculation and hearsay out there.

    I also love every commenter on here continually saying the cops opened fire with machine guns…. Really??? Was it a M-249, M-60, or M-240? These are probably the same people that get mad when a magazine is called clip.

    1. avatar Grindstone says:

      I love how supposed “2A supporters” will immediately rush to defend the armed agents of the states no matter what. Is there anything the police could do that would ever get you off your knees?

    2. avatar CoolHand says:

      Yeah, ’cause lord knows the cops never do anything wrong. /rolleyes

      It’s funny how people like you see questioning cops as bashing cops.

      That’s part of the reason a lot of people on the other side are starting to see people who defend cops without question as part of the problem too.

      Even scumbag criminals have got a right to due process. That means not getting gunned down at the slightest provocation.

      Sure, you shoot at the cops, they’re gonna shoot back, but you and I both know that all nine of those dead guys didn’t simultaneously clear leather and threaten cops in different directions all at the same time. MAYBE one guy pull a gun and threatened a cop, but when he fired, all his compatriots opened up as well, turning one dead asshole into a pile of dead guys who may or may not have been assholes, but may also have just been motorcyclists looking for a parking spot in the worst possible place at the worst possible time.

      If you give the cops a free pass to shoot motorcyclists ’cause 1% of them are hardened criminals, you’re a scant walk from there to shooting people who don’t produce their ID fast enough (or too fast), or people who answer the door too slowly (or too fast), etc.

      Do not pre-judge victims of state sponsored violence, lest ye end up pre-judged and riddled with bullets your own self.

    3. avatar S.CROCK says:

      I am truly curious how is wondering if the cops acted out of line cop bashing? Why is it considered cop bashing to want to know if the cops did kill those 9 people?

      Is it called fire fighter bashing when there is an investigation to see if a back fire got out of control and spread?

  10. avatar Paul says:

    I,m sure that the fine Waco police swabbed all of the suspects to know who was or had shot a gun. That way they would have a legal leg to stand on. It’s a simple test

    1. avatar Cuteandfuzzybunnies says:

      Yea I bet all 170 of them including the pastor that was there with the motorcycle ministry where all shooting at the cops. Many of them it seams where hiding in the back.

  11. avatar paul says:

    those law enforcement officers would have been appreciated in ferguson and in baltimore.
    having the balls to do their job.

    1. avatar Grindstone says:

      Opening fire on a crowd of people? Yeah, some balls.

  12. avatar JWM says:

    For a minute there I thought I had checked in on Alex Jones.

    1. avatar Fort Fun says:

      I can look to PrisonPlanet for this content, TTAG focus on firearm content please. Your brand is getting diluted. No I’m not a cop, loosing my patience with this extraneous diversion.

      1. avatar Grindstone says:

        Alex Jones is a conspiracy nut. Demanding accountability for the armed agents of the state is not nearly the same and is perfectly congruent to the POTG and specifically to the purpose of the 2A. If you’d rather give violent police actions a pass, that’s on you.

        1. avatar Joel from PA says:

          Grindstone, you have the same mentality of the Ferguson and Baltimore protestors. I thought stereotyping and not relying on facts was a tactic by the other side, oh wait, I guess you are the other side. We already know their are bad cops, but there are good ones also, just like in any proffesion, there are good and bad. This bashing all cops on this site is childish and immature. When one or a group is found to have overstepped their authority, bash away, but let’s be above the other side and use some common sense…its an investigation people, not all the information is going to be released yet.

        2. avatar 16V says:

          Joel, if memory serves, pretty much everyone here supported Darren Wilson. Why? Because it was clearly a good shoot from very early on, with all the evidence and testimonies bearing that out.

          The problem is the bad shoots (and outright murders on tape like James Boyd) are far too common. It is our job to watch our public servants, because if we the people let this get much farther down the rabbit hole, there will be no turning back without really bad things happening. I’d rather avoid that scenario.

        3. avatar Grindstone says:

          You seem to be misattributing things I’ve never said to me, Joel. YOU must be on “the other side” since facts don’t seem to be your strong suit. Do you disagree with me that the armed agents of the state should be held accountable for their actions?

        4. avatar czp09jrs says:

          We are still WAITING for the facts are we?? Do you always have some first hand information the rest of the world doesn’t? And yes if ANYONE acts outside the law including Officers they should be held accountable, but we don’t know that yet do we…

  13. avatar NYC2AZ says:

    I’ll reserve judgment until (if?) more facts come out. Chaotic events are rarely reported on correctly in the first few days/weeks. However, I would like to point out that Texas citizens aren’t burning businesses down in Waco. Keep it classy Baltimore.

  14. avatar Mark says:

    Biker trash?? Cop bashing?? Killer cops?? I’m sure we will soon hear the full truthful story from the police and witnesses.
    I love how people stereotype and bash both sides. Not every biker is bad and not every cop is perfect.
    I’m a biker and damn proud of it, retired my colors, former military, combat veteran and have massive respect for good cops, those who do the job for the love of helping people. Bikers do the same thing, we’ve given shitloads of money to various charities over the last few decades.
    But we are biker trash and all cops are superhuman perfect.
    Welcome to Unicorn land.

    1. avatar Mike says:

      Actually, I thought you were living in Strawman Land.

    2. avatar Kent says:

      Are you a biker or a 1%er? There is a HUGE difference. I’ve ridden bikes since I was 15, does that make me a “biker”. Who knows? The Bandidos are a self professed 1% MC. To me that means they are criminals who happen to ride bikes. “Bikers” are mostly good hard working American men and women who are the first to help someone in need. If you have ever been stranded on the side of the road, you know that these people are the first to stop and help. 1%ers are thugs who run organized crime syndicates. Prostitution, drugs (especially meth, guns, you name it and they are into it. If someone is “proud” to be one of these drains on society, they need help. A lot of my LEO friends are bikers. They do charity runs, funeral escorts, Honor Flight escorts etc. etc. It’s funny how some people think they are not “bikers” because they are not criminals…

  15. avatar Accur81 says:

    Based upon what I know so far, which is a whole lot less than I’d like to know, this shooting looks fishy. As a cop, I’ve got no problem with my video being shown. I’m proud of what I do and how I treat people. Although I do get sarcastic when people lie to me.

    I have a big problem with the way that the Sandy Hook shooting investigation was covered up, and it’s looking like Waco (2.0?) is going to take a similar path.

    1. avatar ihatetrees says:

      Well stated.
      Note to Waco, PD: The more transparency is the better in these incidents.

    2. avatar Kent says:

      As a cop, you should be the first one to understand the proper way to conduct an investigation. That does NOT include throwing out videos DURING the investigation just to keep the press and naysayers happy. Proper investigations take time and patience. I’m curious what you think was covered up at Sandy Hook…

      1. avatar 16V says:

        Kent, I’m not sure if you live in fantasyland or a cave. Here in the US, if the video shows someone assaulting an officer it’ll be on the first newscast after the incident. If it shows the officer in a positive defensive position, it’ll be on within a day or two of the incident. There’s no ‘waiting to complete the investigation’. Cop shows aren’t reality.

        When it clearly shows police misconduct, or outright executions, it generally is lost to a technical glitch. If it ever sees the light of day because it can’t be covered up, it will be months or years later.

        1. avatar Kent says:

          Generally speaking, the videos I see being shown by the media are from bystanders with their ever present cell phones. They are generally not released by the police until some time after the incident, and ideally not until the investigation is completed. BTW, though I am in Afghanistan, I am not living in a cave… lol

        2. avatar 16V says:

          Sorry you’re in A-Stan for whatever reason. I hope you’ve figured out by now that for all of recorded history, nobody wins in A-Stan, ‘cept the Afghans. Do try to get back in one piece.

          Anyway, I think you’ve missed what happens stateside in local news. Here in the MW and westward, locals will be running dashcam vid and whatever else that shows a good shoot (minus the actual shoot ‘natch) within hours. At longest, next day. The only stuff that ever doesn’t appear in near real time is that which may reflect unfavorably on the coppers.

          Politics and PR drive the bus, thorough investigations ride in the back.

  16. avatar Glenn says:

    I once was derisively called “citizen” by a 1%er while visiting the clubhouse bar of a motorcycle club in the Chicago area.

    I didn’t take the insult personally and, after having a few drinks with this terror of the road, he revealed to me that he was a manager at a major local drug and grocery chain store.

    America is a major costume party.

    I’m still waiting to see the videos of the police “fusillade” on the bikers. What and who did their bullets hit?

    I’ve seen no mention whatsoever of how many gun injuries and deaths were by bullets from police weapons.

    Looks like the media has been given orders to shut up, “move along, there’s nothing to see here folks.”

  17. avatar Mark N. says:

    The thing that bothers me most about this incident is that pretty much everyone who was there has been arrested and charged with one or more major felonies–even though it is indisputable that the vast majority of the folks there had nothing to do with the brawl or the shootings. There were a whole bunch of guys in the restaurant who ducked and covered–why are they under arrest? Mere membership in one of these motorcycle clubs or gangs or whatever you want to call them is simply not a crime. With this realization, I started to see that the sergeant who is the face of the Waco PD is doing a lot of preaching and spin when he gives a statement, and that the facts as he has reported them are not accurate. But without film, I doubt we will ever get the full story.

    1. avatar John in Ohio says:

      I keep reading in comments on blogs that their bikes are in the asset forfeiture process already. I’m skeptical but still wonder if it’s true. Seen any evidence of such so far?

      1. avatar 16V says:

        It’s Texas. The government (especially cops) are complete and utter thieves.

        http://www.texasobserver.org/preying-innocent-civil-forfeiture/

        They use civil asset forfeiture at pretty much any opportunity, one of the the worst abusers in the nation. It’s 20:1 that they’ve seized those bikes.

  18. avatar Gordon Wagner says:

    The police panicked, is what it sounds like. Spraying live rounds into a crowd?! That’s Egyptian. They’re keeping people in jail at insane bail levels. Trying to figure out what to do now that they’ve ****** up.

    1. avatar Indiana Tom says:

      I have sort of been wondering if the cops had a panic attack myself.

    2. avatar Samuel W. Helm says:

      It may be “Egyptian”, but it sounds a lot like Kent State. There is still no consensus about what happened there, and it has been about forty years. I agree with the majority that we need to wait to pass judgment on these civilians.

  19. avatar Silver says:

    It’s just a bunch of white males who violently died, so no one gives a crap and this’ll all go away very soon. Politicians can’t milk anything out of it and the media can’t stir the pot, so they don’t care.

    1. avatar Glenn says:

      Cops opened fire on a bunch of white guys and the liberals cry about how the whites got better treatment by police in the media than blacks did. Police who shoot dissenting black people, by liberal standards, are bad; police who shoot dissenting white people are good.

      To paraphrase Niemöller:

      First they came for the rights of black people, and no one spoke out. Then they came for the rights of white people demonized in the media for alternative lifestyles, and no one spoke out.

      Then they came for the rights of anyone not a state functionary and there was no one left to speak out.

      The Bill of Rights came into existence to prevent police from acting as soldiers: that is as judge, jury, and executioner.

  20. avatar AllAmerican says:

    Yeah. Pretty sure the cops also started World War Two, Vietnam, Al Queda, Slavery, the crusades, and the Roman invasion of Britain. Those damn cops have been lurking around every corner throughout history, conducting every evil act known to take place. If Alex Jones and the history channel is correct, cops were actually brought to earth when aliens arrived. To order around humans to start mining gold for their alien overlords. I also heard that the cops created a calendar that predicted Hillary Clinton (reptilian) would be nominated president on Dec. 21st 2016 and she wound then grant the police a special class of citizenry which would place them above us as all intellegent beings. I know all this because I saw a YouTube video that said it was REAL!!!!!

    1. avatar Cuteandfuzzybunnies says:

      No not the cops. They didn’t start those wars BUT THE GOVERNMENT DID. And the cops are a big part of how the GOVERMEMT keeps control and violates our human rights by sterling our money, labor and liberty. Then they start wars and kill people. They use police to keep control.
      And EVERY cop no matter what kind of person he is EVEN a 3% has to rectify with that. He is partially responsible for the state he enables. Sure some cops have a moral compass but are cops because they wouldn’t want anybody who wanted the job to have it. Some feel that the governement itself is moral( they are fools). Some just want a job or like to beat up people. BUT they are all part of the government they serve. In this country and in others.

      1. avatar JWM says:

        We are all responsible for the .gov and state we have. To pile it all on the cops is very much a lie. Raging against this corrupt system on the internet does nothing. If you believe what you’ve stated then you either get physically active agains the corruption or you’re part of it.

      2. avatar Kent says:

        So the cops have responsibility but you have none? Police are hired to enforce laws. They don’t write them or have anything to do with their creation. Government does that at every level from your local city ordinance, all the way up to federal statutes. And who elects the people in government who write the laws? You and I do. So tell me again who is responsible. Don’t like the laws? Don’t look at the police, look in the mirror, or better yet do something about it!

        1. avatar John in Ohio says:

          The officers are responsible for their own individual actions. Just following orders holds no water.

    2. avatar Indiana Tom says:

      then grant the police a special class of citizenry which would place them above us as all intellegent beings. You spelled intelligent wrong, so what you stated must be true.

  21. avatar Paul53 says:

    No dogs or dolphins were injured in the above mentioned confrontation. That’s the important thing.

  22. avatar rosignol says:

    I dunno what the hell happened, but I’ve seen enough fusterclucks that this is starting to look kinda familiar.

    I am a wee bit skeptical that there weren’t any cameras pointed at that parking lot. “Recent construction” usually means “cameras errywhere”.

  23. avatar David says:

    This really shouldn’t be that difficult. Do cops not have ammunition accountability? We should know exactly who fired and how many rounds.

    1. avatar Kent says:

      They are and it’s not. Unfortunately, a lot of people forget that you can have speed or accuracy, but rarely both. Some would rather begin the cop bashing immediately.

  24. avatar Christian says:

    ‘His son said he was “not violent” and rode in charity events to combat crime. Whatever that means.’

    Charity events where bikers ride for a particular cause are pretty much the same as people running a 5k for a cause. You pay for a “ticket” to an event that doesn’t cost much (if anything) and the proceeds benefit whatever the event is for. No need to belittle a dead man who may have done nothing to deserve that fate. Given that he had a clean record, odds are he did NOT deserve that fate. No need to be sarcastic or dismissive.

    1. avatar Joel from PA says:

      They also use “charity events” to move drugs, weopons and money. Oh yea, they also seem to have a large portion of the prostitution trade under their umbrella…every dad’s dream, to have his daughter be an “old lady” at the local 1% club. Nice….but hey, again, let’s wait till the facts of this case come out. I don’t feel sorry for anyone in this situation, u wanna put on the colors and be a tough guy, have at it. But, if the police acted in a manner that warrents discipline, have at it.

    2. avatar Jjimmyjonga says:

      Italian,Irish, and many other Mafia and organized crime “clubs” were/are famous for their “charity” events. Hells Angels do charity rides too. Just wonderful hard working citizens. Charity events for kids with cancer, followed by a blowout party where illegal drugs, excessive drinking, fights, DUI, and violence are par for the course. Yep, people typically join these gangs to show their respect to fellow drivers on the road, help the helpless, pay taxes, take care of their own kids, and stay away from criminal activity.

      1. avatar Kent says:

        I recently read an article about an outlaw MC buying bikes for the kids in foster care in their area. I had to laugh at all the feel good comments that followed the article. Not one of those people stopped to consider how many of those kids are in state custody because of the meth and heroin addictions of their parents. Meth and Heroin trafficked by the same “good guys” who used that drug money to buy bikes for the kids.

  25. avatar ihatetrees says:

    I’m not familiar with the TX (or any) legal system. However, has there ever been a crime where 150+ people have been subject to $1 million in bail?
    Do they all have exactly $1 million bail?
    Did they all do the same (alleged) crime?

    I understand gangs exist. Bad people DO group together. And prosecutors need strong tools to deal with them. But the uniformity of the bail (and charges – have they’ve charged 169 people with accomplice liability murder/manslaughter?) and the lack of information are troubling.

    1. avatar Roy says:

      They were able to achieve the uniform bail amounts because all of them can be charged under Texas’s capital murder laws. If they were there to do illegal activity and somebody died, they’re all guilty of murder is how that law works and murder typically commands a high bail amount.

      I’m interested to learn though if the majority of the people shot were shot with 5.56 from the police rifles. If so this stinks like one step away from being a Mexican mass arrest where those detained are never seen or heard from again.

      1. avatar Kent says:

        You would prefer it was the cops with the gunshot wounds? Video has already shown at least one MC member firing a weapon. Add that to the fact that many of those wounded had stab wounds (definitely NOT a wound caused by police), and what do you have? You want to be a 1%er and live that life? I have zero sympathy for you.

        1. avatar Geoff PR says:

          ” Add that to the fact that many of those wounded had stab wounds (definitely NOT a wound caused by police)”

          I know socially several LEO in my Florida city.

          Knifes like the Spyderco clip knifes with the thumb-hole opener are VERY popular with on-duty LEOs, Kent…

          Seeing theirs motivated me to add Spyderco knifes to my every day carry…

        2. avatar Kent says:

          So your theory is that they gunned down the poor 1%ers till they ran out of bullets, and then waded into the crowd with their pocket knives? Is that really how you see this going down?

  26. avatar Ben says:

    “Members of the Bandidos biker gang who are in the military “are supplying the gang with grenades and C4 explosives,” according to a bulletin issued Thursday by the Texas Department of Public Safety and reviewed by CNN.”

    Sure, because everybody knows that the military just gives high level security clearances to everybody, especially gang members, then issues them grenades and C4 for everyday use. And of course, the military doesn’t inventory that stuff, either, or keep any kinds of records… That just sounds a little too ‘matter of fact’ and ‘it is what it is’… It doesn’t seem like it would be that hard to bust someone who was actually doing stuff like that. IF it was actually happening, that is.

    1. avatar Kent says:

      This might surprise you, but things go missing from the military inventory all the time. It is not that difficult to make small items like that disappear. Sure there are investigations, but I doubt if it will ever be stopped. You read all the time about morons getting busted, selling sensitive items like night vision on Ebay. Grenades and/or C4 would not be that hard to get.

      1. avatar Glenn says:

        True. Stuff goes missing from the military all the time.

        That’s why ISIS is using American made weaponry.

        1. avatar Kent says:

          Yeah, not so much. ISIS did not get their weapons from our military. They got them from the Iraqi’s who we gave/sold them to. There is a difference.

        2. avatar Glenn says:

          Went missing. ISIS got them.

          You concede they went missing.
          You concede ISIS has them.

          My point has been made and I see no need for further discussion on these points.

          Next: The CIA distributed crack in LA.

        3. avatar Kent says:

          Sorry, but that is not how reality works. You do not get to misstate facts and then declare victory based on that falsehood. I did not say they were missing. I said we gave/sold (depending on the type of equipment) them to the Iraqi’s, who then lost them in fighting. They did not go “missing” from our inventory. You are now free to continue your denial of reality.

      2. avatar JeremyR says:

        The last time a grenade went missing from Ft Riley, the base was on lock down for three days. That is how long it took to find it.
        Certain items are considered sensitive, others are highly sensitive. NVG’s, not so much as civilian stuff is just as good.

    2. avatar 16V says:

      This has been established fact for over two decades. Prison-based gangs and motorcycle-based gangs have long since infiltrated the US military. This is not speculation. The military has tried to screen them out, but has been largely unsuccessful.

      And yes, things go missing all the time. They can’t even keep track of all the nukes, does anyone really think they could keep track of small arms and munitions?

  27. avatar Gunr says:

    I looked through the photos above. I was trying to find how many of them I would trust to take my granddaughter out. I only found one!
    And that’s because she’s 6’3″ and weighs 296!

  28. avatar Bungameng says:

    The US justice system works weird. There is now way that a Czech judge would approve summary jailing of 200 people for just being in the parking lot where something bad happened. Most of these guys would have been out of jail within 48 hours in my country (which is the maximum detention time without judicial order).

    1. avatar Kent says:

      This was mostly likely done because these MC’s, especially the Bandidos, are considered members of organized crime. They traffic in narcotics, prostitution, guns and anything else to make a dime. RICO has been used against them before and will be again.

  29. avatar Dustin says:

    Speculation is one thing, but to fail to see a pattern is another. Look at the vacuum, look ad the same things cops would look at while investigating… The inconsistencies. The unsolicited comments and over-defensiveness, the absurd bond on a blanket arrest of almost 200 witnesses with no evidence of any kind… It’s as if this was planned months in advance, and timed perfectly for political reasons… To keep one’s head in the sand after such amazing combinations of fact-vacuum, planned and assured by two segments of the same branch of government with no checks or balances… Support the boot-lick position; It’s like setting up dominoes, knocking them over, and then pretending you don’t even know what dominoes are… It’s one thing to be a boot licker, but under this extreme set of circumstances, you gotta be completely brain dead to fail to admit, at the very least, that something very obviously dirty is going on… I’m not saying every last one of these cops deserves to die, but it sounds like a good idea. If they ended up getting a reciprocal taste of their own medicine, I wouldn’t bat an eye. It’d be the closest thing to justice we’ve seen in this country in over a century.

    1. avatar Joel from PA says:

      WTF???

    2. avatar Kent says:

      It was planned in advance… by the MC’s you moron. I suppose all the guys in the hospital with stab wounds were put there by the police also, right? You need to put your tinfoil hat back on. The voices are talking to you again…

  30. avatar daniel l says:

    Um am i wrong but have military grenades or c4 ever been used in a crime in the u.s.? Ive never heard of that, so that to me sounds like slander, hypothesising something might happen that never has…also to my knowledge only two legally registered machine guns habe ever been used for a murder, and one of those was a cop murdering an informant. So again this sounds like the police slandering the biker gangs, characterising them as terrorists, which is the best way these daya to justify unlawful actions against a person or persons

    1. avatar Kent says:

      Look at the Wikipedia listing for the Bandidos. It has an interesting listing of crimes, including bombings and multiple murders associated with the Bandidos. I challenge anyone to look at that list and then tell me that these are just hard working joes that conduct charity rides for the children. They are proud of their 1% criminal status!

  31. avatar Nick says:

    While I’m not one to cop bash, it would appear as if Waco PD needs to get their PR guys to work. Arresting ALL of the people involved (on what charges do you arrest nearly 170 people? Wrong place wrong time?) and then getting a judge to order a $1M bail on each (why so high if not to silence them) seems fishy. Add to that the lack of camera footage (AP has it from inside, almost a gaurantee there’s cameras outside too) and it all seems really suspect.

    What is most disturbing is locking up all of the witnesses. Simply being there or being an alleged member in a group (without any evidence of an actual crime) is not unlawful as it is guaranteed by the first Ammendment right of association. If they didn’t engage in the fight, they should’ve never been arrested. I foresee many wrongful death/ malicious wounding claims as well as unlawful arrest lawsuits in the future.

  32. avatar Sheepdog6 says:

    Honestly we just don’t know enough yet…

  33. avatar H says:

    It goes both ways.
    Our present focus is on unnecessary force. That’s it.
    A guy is a perp. Past record. Do you use necessary or exaggerated force? I’m not throwing the cops under the bus. They are the professionals here and are called to a high standard.
    It’s not wrong to question.
    We know that some are overzealous. We know that some police cover for their own. It seems society is asking for a higher quality of police work.

    1. avatar John in Ohio says:

      I think what the People have been seeking is restraint, accountability, and equality under the law.

      If agents of government didn’t screw this incident up then they have a transparency and public relations problem at the very least.

  34. avatar kap says:

    you have cops armed with M-16s , with burst capability, behind cover shooting into a crowd or you have cops with shotguns and # 4 buck why #4, it is more effective than 00!
    Most Bikers I know have varying relationships with the police, but most assuredly it does not involve openingly provoking the police,
    If a buddy opens fire in a firefight do you hold fire, or if you go on a mission pumped up with inflammatory pre-mission, briefing you already have the mind set of waste them all, and pulling the trigger is easy because in your mind you are protecting your own life and your buddy’s!
    Most police I know Lack the intestinal fortitude to let a situation develop
    Mentality has switched from reaction to pro action, all in the name of Police safety! How about the Federal Baby Incinerators at the Waco church compound! Same presumption, here you have a group attacked in there homes for a staged political event to garner support from the new President! they protect their homes, now home owners are the bad guys so kill them all and let God sort it out! gets facts before speculation because it can and will get people killed!
    Freedom to gather is a God given right, even if it is bad guys on bikes!
    So one idiot with a weapon of some kind opened fire and now the Police Shot fish in a Barrel so to speak! How many other supposed bad guys weapons were retrieved that had been fired!

  35. avatar Kent says:

    Ok, first of all, I said nothing about an “insurrection”, or a war between the “people” and the police. My comments were quite clear. In a war between 1%ers and U.S. law enforcement, my bet is on the police. Think about that statement. 1%ers are the self proclaimed criminals of the biker world. So my statement could just as easily have read, “in a war between criminals and U.S. law enforcement, my bet is on the police”.

    Isn’t that the way it should be? Why would you not want this to be the case? (Unless you are a criminal of course)

    1. avatar czp09jrs says:

      +1….also, we seem to have many on this board who think, Law Enforcement bad, criminal biker gangs good…LOL

    2. avatar JeremyR says:

      Are you stupid enough to think we believe that all the people at that event were 1%ers? The Bandito’s may very well be ALL 1%ers, but no Bandito’s were killed according to some accounts while others say one bandito and the rest Cosacks.
      The event was not a meeting of the Banditos and Cosacks, it consisted of numerous clubs. At first I was leaning toward believing that this was a biker rumble that went overboard. Now It is becoming clear that the LEOs are the problem here.
      I believe that when the smoke clears, that the citizens of Whacko will be on the hook for millions in compensations to the various bikers and their families. What should happen instead is the Police union, specifically their retirement fund should pay the damages.

      1. avatar Joel from PA says:

        Nobody said all the bikers were 1%ers….nobody said all the bikers were criminals…. You evidently must be the stupid one since u can’t seem to comprehend what you read…yes, the cops must have set this all up to shoot a bunch of non criminal bikers cause they have nothing better to do….and u call other people stupid…

  36. avatar MontieR says:

    The Waco PD and the feds do have a wonderful track record of literally killing the problem and then excusing themselves as law enforcement. This entire ehem problem smells like dead fish.

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