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Against all odds, the ATF has announced that they’re pulling the proposed ban on 5.56 M855 green tip ammunition. After a barrage of comments from the public as well as bipartisan criticism from Congress, our friends at the bureau issued a press release announcing that, “ATF will not at this time seek to issue a final framework.” Make the jump for their full statement . . .

NOTICE TO THOSE COMMENTING ON THE ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION EXEMPTION FRAMEWORK

Thank you for your interest in ATF’s proposed framework for determining whether certain projectiles are “primarily intended for sporting purposes” within the meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). The informal comment period will close on Monday, March 16, 2015. ATF has already received more than 80,000 comments, which will be made publicly available as soon as practicable.

Although ATF endeavored to create a proposal that reflected a good faith interpretation of the law and balanced the interests of law enforcement, industry, and sportsmen, the vast majority of the comments received to date are critical of the framework, and include issues that deserve further study. Accordingly, ATF will not at this time seek to issue a final framework. After the close of the comment period, ATF will process the comments received, further evaluate the issues raised therein, and provide additional open and transparent process (for example, through additional proposals and opportunities for comment) before proceeding with any framework.

[h/t Louis B.]

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158 Responses to BREAKING: ATF Backs Down on M855 Ban…For Now

    • I am guardedly optimistic that the price will indeed drop even lower than the recent panic price for two reasons. First, ATF scuttled the initiative which should (in theory) reduce demand. Second, I have to think that a bunch of distributors placed emergency orders for more M855 and manufacturers started emergency production to fill the demand before any ban would have taken place. That means manufacturers and distributors should be sitting on a glut within the next couple weeks or so when the supply chain catches up.

      Thus, if demand subsides and supply increases, the price should go down to the pre-panic level.

      Furthermore, I picture many people holding back on their purchases because they are hoping for the upcoming price decrease. Saying it another way, many purchasers have nothing to lose and everything to gain if they wait a while to purchase. Therefore many will wait and supply should increase.

        • It worked for me as a USMC 0311 when I was out at the 500 yard line with open sights, and still making hits at 80-90% with an M16A2. Not half bad for ammo that should cost about $.35-.40 / round.

        • If I remember correctly, in Nick Leghorn’s study of various types/brands of 5.56 available on the market, the M855 was amongst the lowest in velocity standard deviation. Over the years I’ve found it to be pretty good stuff, certainly not match grade but plenty good enough for most applications. And at a third to a quarter of the price of Federal GMM and the like, well, quantity has a quality all of its own.

      • The ATF and Obama had no justification to rewrite the laws on this bullet or any other 5.56 round as they have been legal for nearly 50 years … There are no banks, armored cars, or mass populations being mowed down with these bullets and as far as I am concerned is a far better round for general target practice and punching through dense brush than the lighter 55 grain bullet.

        I have little doubt the administration was doing nothing more than a test run to see how far they could go regarding ammunition and this bullet was the perfect candidate for their experiment. I imagine they found out not too far. Had they been successful the 7.62 would have been next and on down the line for all semi-automatic ammunition.

        A second concern for the administration is he wanted to remove equal parity with the military by keeping this bullet military only — not that an AR15 has the same punch as an Abram Tank or an F17. however, the 62 grain green tip does give the population at least partial parity with the military in that it helps level the playing field should conflict (conflict I believe Obama is intentionally attempting to set the foundation for with the eventual economic collapse from excessive spending) arise.

        The constitution called for a well armed and organized militia. In short, it meant equally armed. This bullet makes for equally armed; albeit most of the civilian weapons are semi-automatic and not fully automatic.

        The framework for militia was to assist and function with the Federal forces and if need be in opposition to the Federal government to prevent tyranny for taking hold. Today these sycophants see the armed population and or militia’s as a social threat and groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center routinely categorize any group as terrorist and gun owners in general as nut-jobs and paranoid haters.

        Well, when someone tries to make a play for my ammo or gun I suppose it does make me paranoid…lol…but just because I am paranoid it doesn’t mean someone or some thing isn’t really a threat.

        I can’t say if the bullet cost will drop — that probably won’t happen until after the government is forced to stop buying a big chunk of it — a chunk that far exceeds their needs many times over — which includes the .22.

        It is not hoarders that keep the bullet supply low … IT IS THE GOVERNMENT …

        Anyhow, I did see the .223 Perfecta brand show up in decent amounts (something not seen in this part of Kentucky for well over a year — in fact not at all) first in Alabama when I returned from a cruise earlier this week, and then in the local store just a few days ago. 50 round boxes for about 18.95 a box — the brand name ammo was still 20 dollars for 20 rounds. Obviously, I bought the Pefecta as I see no difference between it and the more traditional names when firing it.

        That was refreshing, and was the first indication the ATF had backed off.

        I know the .223 isn’t the 62 grain green tip, but my AR fires both and I was just happy to get some ammo for it — any ammo for it — in a decent quantity from a local store. Maybe I am looking for daisies under a manure pile, but as the bullet cases return to normal it gives me hope the conservatives are moving towards taking back control and trying to set things right in this nation and undue much of the president’s insanity.

        • Sorry, but this isn’t a test run for anything. It is a full court press and its timing with the undermining of the 1A via taking control of the Internet is not an accident.

          ATF has already noted the problem isn’t M855 but the whole 5.56 caliber. Well .233 punches through justas easily. They’re not going ban one and not the other.

    • Maybe they were afraid of growing support to pass legislation to shutdown the ATF resulting in many agents losing their jobs.

      • Or they realized that it wouldn’t stand up in court since M855 doesn’t meet either definition given in the law and that there was no way there wouldn’t have been a lawsuit if they did try to ban it.

        • Government agencies do not give a single *uck about the cost of litigation. All they care about is the inconvenience of getting a ruling against them and the hassle of re-writing the regs.

        • They might not care about wasting money on on defending stuff that would obviously not stand up in court, but they do care about the loss of power such a defeat would entail, by putting an end to how far they could stretch that law. In fact I think there are other rounds that are currently banned that technically don’t meet the definition of armor piercing by law which they then would also be forced to over turn.

    • Now we have to penalize them for the attempt….

      …perfect time to morph the issue to the similarly illegal 7.62 and 5.45 bans.

      • Someone should go for the “5.7mm/44/357/9mm are widely used rifle rounds and should not fall under this law” route. The ATF’s stupid interpretation cuts both ways, and the law should be repealed just like the rest of the gun control laws.

  1. Good deal. Roaches heading for the cracks in the wall becasue someone turned on the light.

    “further evaluate the issues raised therein, and provide additional open and transparent process”

    Sure they will… not. They’ll wait and hope someone turns off the light.

    • Translation: We need more time to decide how best to screw the American public WITHOUT them noticing next time so we can keep our jobs and still get what we want.

    • My fear is that they will try to work on the USE of the item. In other words…they may come back and say you can have the m855, but if you fire it through a pistol you will be breaking the law. I know…unenforceable…like 922r, the brace ruling and who knows what else. But if they can say that someone is “redesigning” a brace by how it’s used…then it’s easy enough to make the transition to you can’t use that gun with that type of ammo.

  2. Give me back my damn 7n6 you corrupt tyrants! I hope all you ar guys that sat back and did nothing about the 7n6 ban have a better understanding. There was a big push from ak guys trying to keep this ban from happening. we are in it together. I did my part and I’ve never even owned a single round of m855. If the atf wants it… Fight it! Everyone, every time.

      • first they came for the 7n6. I did not speak up, because i did not shoot 7n6.

        Then they came for the M855. And there was nobody left to speak up for m855…

      • 7n6 (sort of) meets the technical classification within the framework by having a mild steel core (it is a bit more complicated than that, but the mild steel core is truly the ‘core’), while M855 has a steel ‘tip’, followed by the lead core, therefore failing the component test:

        “…a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium;…”

        Don’t get me wrong. I disagree with the ban on 7n6, but at least the round is closer to the definition as provided in LEOPA. M855 does not (argued elsewhere related to the tip actually being a ‘core’).

        7n6: http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/ua5357555a.jpg

        M855: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ammo_Cross_Sections/SS109.jpg

        • I disagree with the ban as well but another problem of the 7n6 was that it was imported. It just so happened at the exact same time relations with Russia was really breaking down, because Putin knows he can wipe Obama off his shoe. Anyway the outcry for the 7n6 wasn’t going to make a difference because they just would have done it with an import ban vs an ammo ban.

          I did however send a letter in during that one too. I don’t want to see any of it banned and I really hate that they throw the word “sporting” in there. The 2nd isn’t about squirrel hunting it’s about putting a hole in enough oppositions chest that they decide you can’t be “ruled”

        • But where’s the handgun in America that can fire the round? It meets the criteria for being armor piercing as stated, but it doesn’t have the handgun component to activate the ban.

          They used a true ghost gun that was made in like the Czech Republic or something but there’s not one documented case of an example of that “handgun” being imported into the United States.

          Besides, the whole thing is absurd anyway.

        • Any idea how they slice those rounds lengthwise like that?
          (Aside from “very carefully…”‘(:>) )

        • The ATF itself has listed the “Fabryka Bronie Radom, Model Onyks 89S” (A ‘commonly available pistol’ according to them…): https://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2014/04/040714-special-advisory-test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545×39-ammunition.html

          MAC, however, indicates that only 200 were made: http://www.thebangswitch.com/bye-bye-7n6/

          Others that a human could actually buy (maybe):

          Robinson XCR Pistol in 5.45×39: http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2012/5/7/robinson-arms-xcr-l-pistol/

          JBI armory: http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129763

          Might be others but most of what I found were one-off ‘bubba’ builds. I didn’t put a whole lot of effort into the search, but I was curious based on the questions myself.

      • After 1987, it had a hardened steel penetrator which also had more steel than the M855 which has a soft steel penetrator.

    • While we are at it those pricks still have some ak ammo held up if I’m not mistaken. Let’s get off of the defensive for once and get to fighting them. Let’s get 7n6 back!

  3. We should not stop until we dismantle their framework at the very least. Otherwise, we are gonna have to deal with this nonsense again.

    • PRESS THE ATTACK – Do not stop calling / writing . FINISH THEM OFF…. for good . De-Fund and Dismantle
      this rogue ,murdering agency. Sharpen that wooden stake , or they WILL be back.

      • I agree totally. Let’s get this agency under some sort of control.

        At this point the ATF is the loose cannon because they ultimately are not directly responsible to the American people.

        Let’s get together and get the ban on Russian 5.45 lifted now while we have some momentum.

        • All it would take to defang the ATF banning any ammunition (including 7n6) it wants is changing one line in the GCA to specifically not apply to ammunition designed for rifles that happens to have a pistol chambered in it. Call your reps and senators.

  4. I bet this is because they got caught leaving the barn with a bloody axe. If they had waited out the comment period, they could have gone ahead with their ban, but no — they just had to give us gun clingers the middle finger. Was it Katie Pavlich who uncovered their pre-published rules? Thank God for the internet. Legacy media couldn’t be bothered.

  5. Who wants 1k of M855 on stripper clips for $1 per round? Hurry and get it now!!! lol

    In all seriousness, I’m about to dump a bunch on the local buy/sell page to see if I can double my money before word gets out. Especially now that I know I can replace it at the normal cost at some point. I’m a jerk like that.

    • You’re not a jerk, it’s supply and demand 101. I don’t care what your asking price is. If I deem it to be a valuable exchange, I’ll participate. If not, I don’t have to. But when Certain Thrifty Dealers do it, people lose their collective sh!t, as if they are entitled to low prices. There’s a reason pretty much every store has a disclaimer to warn that prices are subject to change at any time without notice. Markets can be unpredictable and require a quick response. Deal with it.

      • That CTD cancelled orders which it had already accepted (and which it had the means to fulfill) so that it could then sell that stock at the new, higher market price. That may have been legal, but it was unethical and I won’t deal with them.

        At the other extreme, AIM Surplus tried to maintain their old pre-panic prices, and so had no stock for about a year. That’s well meaning, but really foolish.

        • That is exactly what CTD did to me. They cancelled the order I placed before Sandy Hook. Sat on it for a couple of weeks and then canx’d it claiming it was out of stock. I looked the very same day I was notified and the prices had gone up on each of the three items I ordered. Yes from the same warehouses originally selected.

          I will never purchase anything from them ever again.

        • I still remember CTD trying to sell 30rd AR mags for $125 each during the mag shortage post Sandy Hook.

        • I think my last purchase from them was before the panic, so I haven’t experienced any of this order cancellation nonsense. I’m certainly not defending that. But what did many people do with the regular priced items they bought during the panic? They flipped them on Gunbroker the next day for a much higher price.

        • That CTD cancelled orders which it had already accepted ……………… That may have been legal,

          I’m not a lawyer but I’d bet that’s illegal in some states. Sure seems like that was contractual intent when they charged your credit card.

    • AMEN!!! But it won’t happen now. I’d give up M855 in a heartbeat if it meant getting rid of the ATF.

      • Elect me president and I’ll do everything I can to make it happen. You won’t even have to give up even one of your favorite ammos…
        I’m not R, not D. I’m independent. That means I’ll piss off everybody…

      • Getting rid of the ATF doesn’t get rid of the laws that need to be enforced.

        The ATF should be abolished, absolutely … but until the dumb laws that it enforces are repealed, it doesn’t really solve the problem.

    • Repeal the laws they were enforcing FIRST. Otherwise, you’ll have more competent bureaucrats enforcing the law more efficiently.

      • “Competent bureaucrats”? It would be easier for them to find some albino unicorns to enforce the laws than competent government bureaucrats.

  6. So 80,000 negative comments makes it OK to keep selling cop-killing, armor-defeating, senseless-child-death bullets? Must have been so very necessary…

    Real laws (like those against murder, robbery, and rape) don’t have public opinion aspects to them. FU ATF

  7. Holy crap… that surprises the hell out of me. I’m sure they’ll come back with a new angle soon though.

      • Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by (government) incompetence.

        The people at the top who are pushing the agenda certainly have no technical grasp of the law or M855 bullet construction. All they would have had to hear is, “M855 Penetrator ammunition penetrates armor!” and, “you can fire it out of AR-15 pistols!” and, “There is a law which empowers the ATF to ban ‘cop killer’ bullets!” to jump into action.

        And you know the people at the top didn’t write the proposal. Rather, some lackey had to write it. And even if the lackey knew this would fail on technical merits alone, what is he/she going to do? … tell Dear Leader that the law as written doesn’t support the agenda? Nope. That lackey would just write a proposal anyway and the let the chips fall where they may.

        I am confident the upper brass at ATF and the Attorney General’s office were truly blindsided. They had to be. The only way they could know otherwise is to have a few firearms enthusiasts give them the skinny. And therein lies their problem: no firearms enthusiasts are going to help the ATF draw up a ban. The ATF had to go it alone with people who hate firearms and they got a bad result. Sounds about right to me.

        The only thing that surprises me is that they cared about the fact that they had no legal authority for the ban. I figured they would go ahead anyway. Rule of law hasn’t seemed to stop Dear Leader or his minions up to this point.

        • It’s also entirely possible that the same people A) don’t know anyone who has a gun outside of LEO or their private security, and B) never talk to anyone out side the Beltway-NYC bubble:

          Pauline Kael (New York Times theater critic) famously commented, after the 1972 Presidential election, ‘I live in a rather special world. I only know one person who voted for Nixon. Where they are I don’t know. They’re outside my ken. But sometimes when I’m in a theater I can feel them.’

  8. …further evaluate the issues raised therein…

    Am I the only one who read that and immediately thought that they’ll try to use all of the comments that say any rifle ammunition penetrates light body armor as an excuse to ban more ammo?

    • Don’t for a minute think that isn’t the trajectory of the antis and this administration’s strategy.

      Control the message; rejuvenate “cop killer” when referring to any and all common, popular ammunition and ban as much as possible.

    • I don’t think they will continue this way. The real objective was far too obvious, especially with the Progressive unable to resist jumping on the “cop-killer” bullet bandwagon. I rather expect they would shift tracks and try to ban all handguns that can shoot a centerfire rifle cartridge. They’ll have more luck with the unwashed masses and the Fudds that way.

    • I don’t see it. Any rifle ammo above .22 LR will penetrate soft body armor. The trouble they are running into is that the AP definition doesn’t make any logical sense to begin with, and they were trying to stretch it further. They’re kinda stuck in an all-or-nothing situation in that if they stick to that definition then they have to admit that all rifle ammo this side of african game cartridges would qualify and ban all of it, or admit that their definition is garbage. The former won’t happen without a constitutional amendment repealing the 2A, and they won’t want to lose face via the latter. They will regroup on the effort to ban ammunition, but it will be with a different tack.

      • It is supposed to be a constitutional republic

        Also a big difference.

        Shall not be infringed seems a bit more infringed upon these days than it was when my grandpa grew up.

      • It’s both. Republic just means that it does not have a hereditary ruler. Democratic means that the rulers are representatives elected by the people. Constitutional means that the power of those representatives to legislate is limited by a constitutional.

        The whole “US is not a democracy, it’s a republic” line is bullshit – or rather, correct, but only when adjusted for the difference in the meaning of those words back when it was coined and today. It’s based on the meaning of the word “democracy” that hasn’t been mainstream for like 200 years now. When the Founders talked about “democracy” in their letters, they referred specifically to what we call “direct democracy” today. In their time, there were pretty much no other countries that were democracies in any sense of the word, so for them it was largely a historical term dating back to Ancient Greece.

        Today, though, most of the countries in the world are democratic, and so the term has grown to encompass all varieties of popular rule, with additional terms like “direct democracy” or “representative democracy” to qualify how exactly it is implemented. So the correct way to say it in modern English is “US is not a direct democracy, it is a representative democracy”.

  9. Or waiting for the Executive Action to get it banned..I can never quite trust their side much less anything they say or print unless it’s been proved and in effect for 90 years.

    • Jesus H Christ! Unless you will starve or die from exposure to the elements because you can’t buy m855 then shut the fvck up about price gouging… Market climate/demand setting the price for a non-essential commodity is NOT price gouging!

      • But, wait.

        If I have several cases of it, am I ‘hoarding’?

        Heh. Love your response, 300TX. That gave me a great chuckle this morning, thanks! 😀

      • Well, obviously you won’t starve due to a lack of M855, because it has no “sporting purpose”. BATFE said so, so it must be true.

  10. Well, legally it was a loosing case on their part. It didn’t fit the definition of an AP round. Quietly waiting for the next attack.

  11. Fantastic! I hope all the ammo grabbers can’t pay their rent this month trying to “cash in”. Dirt bags.

  12. Translation: We half-stepped our process this time – not enough emotional angst in the air. We’ll wait for another opportunity when the bloody red flag is flying high and we, at the administrations behest for urgency, will more likely succeed with a coordinated political effort.

    Stay vigilant my friends.

  13. Translation. The ammo companies told the government they wouldn’t see another round of 5.56 for the military if they pushed this civilian ban!!!

    • I tend to doubt it. Ammo manufacturers are by and large a pretty pragmatic bunch, I think, and I expect the margins are likely higher on other rounds they would be selling more of.

    • Please tell me you don’t actually believe that. If the ammo and gun companies really cared that much about the 2A, they wouldn’t sell to any government agency any small arms or ammo that can’t also be bought by mere mortals. A few small companies do have that policy, but as far as I know, none of the big guys do.

  14. Wow, I’m surprised–they actually read and paid attention to the comments? I really am surprised.

    • Nobody actually believes they will READ them all. They just need time to delete all of the expletives(quite a few I’d guess) before they post them to a website.

    • Congressional push back; the administration is getting over its head with resistance to its “executive” actions – not that they’re not used to being “in over their head” with everything they do. An ammo ban at this time is raising a lot of opposition and putting more spotlight on *all* Obama’s executive “pen and phone” actions no matter how much he tries to obfuscate them.

      They’ll wait ’till some time passes and another tragedy goes down to provide sympathetic support for more restrictions on guns…and the ammo to feed them. This is a very opportunistic, deceptive administration in its moves to push unpopular agendas.

      The pro-gun crowd must consistently, relentlessly, stay on message.

    • I think this has almost nothing to do with the public’s comments and far, far, far more to do with the resistance from Capitol Hill. Those senators who are pushing back on this have a fair bit of say in the BATFE’s budget, and they’re wisely dropping this now before any serious talk about budget cuts or withholding funding gets bandied about.

      They’ll be back with an equally ludicrous proposal in time, but next time they will probably have the good sense and poor taste to wait until an appropriately tragic shooting catches the media’s attention.

  15. I figure this was a smoke screen to collect names and addresses of AR-15 owners for future reference. Or to further the guidelines. One thing is for sure: this IS NOT a retreat.

  16. Well, it looks like TTAG is on the ball. I was just sending this to RF when the TTAG email came in. I’ll include it here for everyone else’s thoughts.

    Dear Robert & All,

    This is just breaking. The ATF is backing off on their attempt to ban M855. Here is the story reported from The Hill: http://thehill.com/regulation/pending-regs/235216-atf-shelves-proposed-bullet-ban

    While this is a very good thing, there are a few very disturbing facts that came out of this debate.

    First, even our supporters kept referring to M855 as a popular armor piercing bullet. This is NOT true any more than it is true for any other centerfire rifle round and we really need to get that message out.

    Second, what kept getting dropped from the conversation is the precedent that this sets. What we would have with this ruling is the precedent of a standard rifle round being banned because it can defeat body armor. This is a case of letting the camel’s nose into the tent.

    Finally, I’ve thought the “correct” action to this badly described “Framework” would be to actually apply their definition to M855. If done so, it would not be classed as AP and wouldn’t even require an exemption. Indeed, my thought is that with their pulling back, we should really keep up the pressure and push for the outcome that an exemption is not needed. If we do not, I fear we will be fighting this battle all over again in the near future.

    Anyway, it was a battle well fought, so let’s celebrate the victory and continue the war.

    Regards,
    Raul Ybarra

    Basically, my suggestion is that if you were holding off on writing to see what develops, you still need to send them a comment. Don’t simply let this go away or it will be back and in a much more covert manner. The second thing is to push on the idea that M855 shouldn’t need an exemption anyway.

    Finally, we need to learn a lesson from the Progressives. To many times we simply go for the momentary win and ignore the long game. We need to keep it up and continue pushing them back.

  17. Wow, barry can’t even get cop killer bullets banned. Went from lame duck to sitting duck. Couldn’t have happened to a more deserving as@hole.

    • I wouldn’t be doing any victory dances just yet; this isn’t over.

      On what they see as domestic ‘political’ issues, they learn from their mistakes too, and are good at misrepresenting, misleading, and dirty politics despite claims of “transparency”.

      I don’t for a minute doubt the ammo ban effort won’t be revisited on Obama’s watch, not even a bit. Next time it will likely be more comprehensive.

      Raul Ybarra above makes some good points. A LOT of pushback speaks volumes.

  18. Now maybe ya’ll can help try and get the 5.45×39 ban lifted since they used the same reasoning behind that and none of ya’ll showed up to help!

  19. Tighten your tinfoil: A small part of me says that they just wanted to drive the prices of surplus ammo up.

    The rest of me of course says that a letter by 52 senators got their attention.

  20. Found a very interesting blog by Dennis Santiago over at Hufpo about the political fallout this action could have. His insight is quite, well, insightful.

    “One then returns to the dramatic effect it will have on the supply-demand equation for ammunition availability for a popular rifle’s owners – both left and right – impacting its most common sporting use … and then ponder the political consequences of it. The bottom line is that what the BATFE proposes will create a physical shortage of ammunition that will in turn create a stockpile of political ammunition. I’m not really sure the country needs that right now.”
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dennis-santiago/executive-order-m855_b_6773274.html

    • That is a really good point. The only thing Progressives did accomplish was building a large stockpile of tangible (cartridges) and political ammunition that can be used against them. Both weaken their position.

  21. THIS is why it annoys me so much when I see 2A supporters turn a blind eye to petitioning, calling and making their voices heard. When we stand together, we can stop any tyranny, no matter who is in office, by sheer force of numbers alone. When we let the tyrants divide us, or we slip into apathetic ways, that’s when they win.

    NEVER give up. NEVER assume the threat is over with. NEVER let down your guard.

  22. Just keep on eye on ATF they may wait to see if attention dies and try again. BE Vigilant!!!

    Otherwise good job gun owners keep it up!!!

  23. Although ATF endeavored to create a proposal that reflected a good faith interpretation of the law…

    I don’t see how anyone who actually read the proposal can believe this. The flaws in reasoning pointed out by myself and others indicate that either the authors of the framework had an agenda to make the framework as strict as they could get away with or they have no ability to reason.

    • It all boils down to the left’s standard disclaimer:

      “But we meant well !”

      Anything and everything is forgivable if you meant well…

      It’s their standard Cop-Out.

  24. Why did this happen? I know they are saying it is because the voice of the people was heard, but I have one other thought. They initially left m855 off the exemption list of their recently published guide. Did they already plan to ban it, and then have to reverse course for fear of showing that they had already made up their mind? I’m just wondering if this was backtracking to try and save face.

    • I don’t know – but if I were the manufacturers I would point to the new regulations as simply being an acknowledgement that no exemption was ever necessary in the first place.

  25. Well- after the upholding of the micro-stamping thing in CA, this was a positive note.

    Now, if the 9th would just issue a refusal to re-hear the Peruta case en-banc and let the shall-issue direction to the SD sheriff to stand, it will be a good week.

  26. Now is the time to turn up the heat on the rest of this NFA/ATF nonsense. Keep pushing! they gave up an inch let’s get that mile. I want to be able to buy a silencer out of a vending machine by the years end!

    • “I want to be able to buy a silencer out of a vending machine by the years end!”

      That would be sooooo cool.

        • I think you’re right… I attended a blacksmithing class recently. The older guys were making anvil stands, forge parts, etc. The younger guys, knives and swords. Not saying there’s anything wrong with that at all; in fact, they created some nice weapons. Just an amusing observation.

  27. Phew… Imagine if we didn’t have a Republican Congress.

    I think we owe the NRA, SAF and our Congress Folks a big Thank You for backing us up on this one. They too saw that this was about more than just M855….

    • Don’t leave off the FOP their dissent from this ban no doubt played a part. I know they don’t always land on our side of the fence so this would be a really good opportunity to show some support and let them see how grateful we are when they stand up for our rights.

  28. Damm I wish I had paid attention to what companys that had “jacked up” their ammo prices during this mess as to NOT EVER BUY FROM THEM again. Down south if you jack up prices during a hurricane the feds will crack your head open, too bad it dosen’t apply to other things.

    • “I wish I had paid attention to what companys that had ‘jacked up’ their ammo prices during this mess …”

      That would be ALL of them. Supply and demand my friend.

    • Right. Because if there’s one thing we need it’s more federal regulation over our ammo supply.

      Increased demand is also what persuaded some people to drive from out of state with a bunch of generators to sell in the hurricane ravaged zones. Yes, at marked up price, but if they had to sell at cost, why bother? Of course when the feds caught them they locked up the generators. Fat lot of good they did anyone stuck in a warehouse when people were willing to pay the markup so they could have power.

  29. I do not own an AR platform nor a traditional hunting rifle. I have a question that I hope someone who knows about AR’s can answer. Given that the AR can be built using .308/NATO, 7.62 x 39, and 12 gauge shotgun loads, as well as .223/5.56, why can’t it also be built in .30-06, .243, or other “traditional hunting” calibers? Granted, that ammunition is more expensive, but wouldn’t it allow those who wanted to be sure that their “military caliber” rounds would not be banned to have an alternative? Or with the wide availability of .308 and even .223 bolt actions are the non “armor piercing” versions considered both “military” and “hunting” and therefore left alone, at least for now? Is there a technical as opposed to economic reason that AR’s are not built in the “hunting” calibers? Thanks.

    • You can build an AR platform rifle in just about any caliber. All types of centerfire rifle ammunition fired out of a 16+ inch barrel in all calibers will zip right through the soft ballistic vests that police use. Therefore, there is no reason to single out M855 ammunition.

      As many people pointed out to the ATF, there is no legal basis either as M855 ammunition doesn’t even fit the definition in the law. The ATF tried playing fast and loose and they have retreated at this point.

    • Because it’s NOT COOL to have one in 30-06! C’mon guy get with the tacticool! and it’s an AR… hard enough to get the .223 to act right or any other caliber let alone a high power round like the 30-06.

      12ga thru an AR I’d like to see that epic fail.

      I think we’re lucky that the Adam’s or other physco’s used AR’s if they had AK’s it would have been worse.
      Sorry FACT.

      • Why I asked the question. And I agree, by the way, that if Lanza or one of the other crazies had used an AK things would have been even worse. For me, too, because I have an AK and an SKS, and I am definitely worried about a ban on imported 7.62 x 39 ammo, not just from Russia, if Obama or Hillary ever really got their way.

    • It can, and it already has been so built. For example, DPMS G2 Hunter (also sold by Remington as R25) is available in .243, .260 Rem, .338 Federal and 6.5 Creedmore. The Remington version also comes in 7mm-08. And then there’s Noreen N36, an AR chambered in .30-06.

  30. I don’t have a smidgen of faith in this administration or the ATF. They flip and flop like Marrin’ john kerry.

  31. The ATF/Obama is not done and they clearly said so. They took a pot shot so to speak and missed. No one has left office, same attitudes remain in place. As the NRA suggested, law needs to be created to stop this nonsense. Inalienable Rights, hello!

  32. A big thank you to all 80,000 shooters who commented. Hopefully the rest of the shooting community will pitch in and send in comments when the next BATFE outrage is published.

  33. Is it just me or is anyone else somewhat disappointed with “only” 80k comments? With the number of AR owners alone, it shoulda been way more than that. Hell I don’t even own a weapon of any sort chambered in 5.56 and I was on this like white on rice on a paper plate in a snowstorm.

    • Not really.

      I always figure that those that actually bother to respond are a subset (gun owner), of a subset (informed), of a subset (timely, meaning they actually noticed it within the window), of a subset (has ‘skin in the game, be it an AR owner, or any gun owner that is perturbed by govt. overreach), of a subset (will actually channel their outrage into action), of a subset (is willing to put their name on the list).

      That thins things out quite a bit. The rest are ‘sleeping’.

  34. There is still a bll before the House to strip the ATF of the power to ban ammo or guns without oversight. LONG overdue. The tech guys at ATF see B.Todd Jones as a buffoon and ignorant political hack.

    Ray

  35. So I’m a member of the TSRA (Texas State Rifle Association) and got this email today:

    “Half an hour ago, Congressman John Culberton (R-Harris Co) called TSRA and asked that we get the message out to our members.

    The ban on green tip ammo has been repealed and it’s gone for good!

    Congressman Culberson chairs a committee with direct influence over BATF and was able to convince those within the agency to remove the ban. We were also told that the ban was actually the first of several. All part of a “research project” designed to review many types of common ammunition which might be armor-piercing.”

    I personally doubt they are done trying to go after Ammo. I also think part of the equation was the chance of losing the resulting lawsuits and possible having “Sporting Purposes” tossed as unconstitional based on Heller.

  36. Taking a victory lap now, about this one issue, is like a boxing match and the amateur challenger claiming victory after throwing and landing the first punch to the steroid enhanced champion.

  37. Any bets on how long it takes Eric Holder to “walk” some green tip and maybe some black pistols to gang neighborHoods?

  38. Translation: We need another false flag mall/school/military base shooting. And this time, make sure they’re loaded with green-tips.

  39. We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. (B. Franklin)

    We won the skirmish, not the war! Read the BATF statement, they WILL be back. Everyone from the largest organizations to the individual commenter helped win this skirmish.

    Now we must still all hang together and not splinter again.

  40. All you, who sat back ,while the ATF took our bulk, cheap (non armor piercing) Russian import 7N6 ammunition, are actually the root of the problem.
    I wrote letters, I protested like hell.. I did the same thing during the M855 attempted ban.. the reality of it is, anything in opposition of any 2nd amendment ban, however small it appears, I am immediately writing letters to anyone and everyone I can.. I have a form letter ready for just about any single situation, that just needs to be amended for the situation.. Where the hell was this massive support when the ATF blocked our 7N6 ? Where was the massive opposition?
    The sole reason we do not have modern, new manufactured Full Auto is because in the 80’s, there were a lot of people asleep at the wheel.. they allowed the ATF to ban new manufactured FA firearms. The ATF will take anything they can.. they don’t want us having anything that sends a projectile out faster than is possible with a slingshot.. We need to file a lawsuit for 7N6 and get that back.. the block was a back door deal. The other thing is to get the Russian manufactured AKs back.. Notice Obama administration banned primarily firearms from Russia.. it was the first thing he went after.
    I’m so sick of the single ended support… when a single ban takes place, on anything related to guns.. hell, even if it’s a ban on an early 1900’s revolver, we need to all band together and stand up for our rights, block whatever the ATF is trying to block.. It’s absolute BS that here we are, losing everything, almost every month.. death by a thousand cuts is what the ATF is doing under this administration.
    The alternative to a full on gun ban, is a very ugly, very violent civil war. When the government tries to block or ban firearms in this country, there will be tremendous blood shed. Everyone reading this article needs to keep this show of support.. because even though you don’t have an AK-74, the ban on the 7N6 ammo was the start .. once they got their foot in the door, they went after AR ammo.. This fight isn’t over.. it just began. Trust me.. they’ll be back, stronger next time, changing rules .. This will get ugly.

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