Quote of the Day: Tough Choices Edition

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“No cop goes out in the morning and says, ‘Hey, I’m going to go kill someone in the stairway.’ Every cop you meet could give you a litany of examples of times they wish they had drawn their gun, and didn’t, and times when they did draw their gun and later learned it was unnecessary.” – Former New York City Police Academy commander Vincent E. Henry in For New York City Officers, Drawing Guns Is Based on Discretion, Not Rules [at nytimes.com]

comments

  1. avatar Hello World says:

    Someone should tell the NY times that having a concealed carry does work!

    http://pagesix.com/2014/11/27/how-bo-dietl-outsmarted-four-muggers/?_ga=1.152078457.1343350736.1414590221

    1. avatar Mediocrates says:

      No. No. This would put The New York Times School of Passive Cooperation out of business.

  2. avatar dakiwi13 says:

    if the choices are so tough then cops need to find another line of work

  3. avatar Pascal says:

    I am certain that nobody wakes up and says “today I am going to shoot someone in the stairway”

    At the same time, nobody goes down stairways assuming the police is going to shoot them either.

    It may not be a matter of rules, but it seems like poor training if the police are ready to shoot simply from foot steps coming down the stairs, it seems like the threat should be identified before shooting. Or, idk, shout out and identify yourself before shooting and see if the person is prepared to comply.

    In this shooting and the 12yr old boy in Cleveland, it seems it was poor training or trained fear versus assessing the actual situation. Reacting before knowing what is going on.

    1. avatar 16V says:

      In reading the reports, it appears the punk kid with a badge didn’t have nearly the testicular fortitude the job is supposed to require. Why he was not washed out of the academy is the bigger issue to my mind.

      I do hope who ever his connect to get the job was re-evaluates their recos in the future.

    2. avatar Really? says:

      The incident in the project staircase is a serious screw up and should be dealt with. I personally think putting two rookies together on one of the scariest jobs the NYPD has to offer is a big mistake. The Ohio incident with the 12 year old is a good shoot. Big difference.

      1. avatar JasonM says:

        Where’s Jesse? Where’s Al? Where are the protestors on this one?

        Or does an unarmed black man’s life not matter when the cop who kills him works for a city controlled by the democrats?

    3. avatar Jus Bill says:

      It may not be a matter of rules, but it seems like poor training if the police are ready to shoot simply from foot steps coming down the stairs…

      But, but… IT COULD HAVE BEEN A MONSTER!

  4. avatar James Andonelli says:

    Once again the police will try to explain away bad shootings with the “you don’t know how hard we have it” In this case a man was shot for walking into a stairway in front of a jittery cop. probably someone who has no business being a cop, much less carrying a gun. Once again we see a citizen murdered, yes I use that word because that is EXACTLY what a CCW holder would be charged with in the same circumstance. He/she would be crucified and would only be made to look like a complete ass by making asinine statements such as “I didn’t wake up this morning wanting to shoot someone in a stairwell”

    If being a cop is so terrifying and dangerous then get a new job. No one forced you into the police academy…..

  5. avatar Roll says:

    Oh boy, can’t wait to read all the derpy cop basher comments on this one…

    1. avatar 16V says:

      So then you find this behavior acceptable, or believe that everyone should just write it off as ‘accidents happen’? Oops?

      1. avatar Roll says:

        No, some of this is not acceptable, but remember, hindsight is 20/20, its easy for us to second guess them typing on this page, they do not have that luxury when out on the streets.

        I’m actually just waiting for the comment from the guy who wants to shoot at cops because they “look threatening”, he/she sounds like a real winner(sarcasm).

        1. avatar barnbwt says:

          You’re wrong; there is only one group with the luxury of defending a shooting like this, and it ain’t the general public

    2. avatar James Andonelli says:

      Maybe folks are tired of cops shooting up innocent folks then getting away with zero punishment. Maybe we are tired of being told average folks shouldn’t have weapons but “highly trained” cops should yet we see this stuff (along with 12 y/o boys murdered) and yet there is no accountability. NYPD’s explanation seems to be “well, gee he didn’t wake thinking about killing this guy so its just an accident, get over it”

      Of course I bet he sees no charges and narrative becomes we should feel sorry for him cause he killed a guy.

    3. avatar meandmealone says:

      Derp

    4. avatar Indiana Tom says:

      Well, at least the cops who blew away the kids knew they were going home that night. No hesitation! Hey , with the cops, they are all good shoots , just ask the local Prosecutor. Blast away!

      1. avatar Roll says:

        If you’d like you can try and replicate what the kid did, go pull an air gun/bb gun on a cop or another armed citizen, write back and let me know how that goes for you.

        Just to add a hint, it’s a bad idea

    5. avatar Jonathan - Houston says:

      Nice. Way to keep an open mind and stay receptive to opposing views.

      No reader goes out in the morning and say “Hey, I’m going to bang my head against the stone wall that is Roll.”

      Put another way, there’s a reason this place isn’t called TTAR: The Truth According to Roll.

      1. avatar Roll says:

        I’ve got an open mind, but when some guy posts that he wants to be able shoot at cops because they “look threatening” (just walking around not doing anything) then you’ve got some screws loose in your head

  6. avatar Juliesa says:

    Going by this and other incidents, the NYPD seems to be a very poorly trained and equipped force, plus they’re recruiting from a population that has zero experience with firearms.

    1. avatar Roscoe says:

      Good point on the lack of firearms experience, but that is also not so uncommon. Many LEO’s (similarly to military recruits) come as newbie shooters, and many don’t do much to improve their ability until coerced to do so.

      NYPD appears to be particularly bad with firearms proficiency. That may be due in part to the anti-gun atmosphere that exists in NYC, a gun averse NYC government, inadequate firearms proficiency training, and the ‘quality’ of police recruits.

      The NYPD has a certain ‘Keystone Cops’ quality about it. That doesn’t make the NYPD any less significant, just less proficient in some regards.

      1. avatar Hannibal says:

        In the battle to have a proficient or significant police force, I know which I choose 😉

        1. avatar Roscoe says:

          In NYC, I’m not sure it matters; the residents lose either way.

    2. avatar Jus Bill says:

      I’ve yet to encounter a “poorly trained and equipped force” that boasts helicopter gunships and Coast Guard-quality patrol boats. And liberally helps themselves to the DoD and DHS “toy chest.” Poorly screened and trained yes, but certainly not poorly equipped.

  7. avatar El Mac says:

    Well, it is Friday afterall. Time for another libtard bomb throwing anti-cop rendition on TTAG. [Yawn…]

    1. avatar James Andonelli says:

      If this is how you understand things and if you think folks being upset about an innocent man gunned down by an inept cop is “cop bashing” then perhaps you should start working on joining the rest of us in the reality based community.

      1. avatar El Mac says:

        @JA, that is the reality here James. TTAG is leftist and anti-cop.

        1. avatar Rambeast says:

          As opposed to you, being fascist and anti citizen. Got it. The only leftist comments I have read here are the occasional abortion and anti-religious rants. If your idea of leftist is anyone that will not immediately prostrate themselves to under-skilled, under trained, authoritarian, rule crazy, trigger happy, uniformed thugs…then call me a leftist because your type have a special place in hell waiting for them. 9am? Time to join Hitler for his daily pineapple suppository.

        2. avatar El Mac says:

          @Rambeast, ahhhhh……spoken like a well tune Leftist…..or Nihlist…..or Anarchist……not much difference in that they all suck.

        3. avatar Grindstone says:

          For you to interpret criticism of the actions of armed agents of the state as “cop-hating” just shows that you are a fvcking moron and fit more into the gun-grabbing fantasies of leftists like the mommies and mayors.

        4. avatar El Mac says:

          @Grindstone, spoken like a pure bred mouthbreathing booger eating moron.

        5. avatar Grindstone says:

          Look out! He’s got his anti-logic shields up!

        6. avatar El Mac says:

          @Grindstone, nahhh….you nust have your blinders on.

    2. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

      It’s okay, officer El Mac…

      You’ll be home safe after reading this article, which is all that matters after all.

      1. avatar El Mac says:

        @ROHC, is that you Mr. Sharpton?? Thought so…

        1. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

          Flash bang any babies lately?

        2. avatar El Mac says:

          @ROHC, snipe cops or firemen much?

        3. avatar 16V says:

          Straight-up bad shoots (above), horribly violent no-knocks, flashbangs on infants, mistaken identity shoots, wrong house no-knocks that get violent. Take that abbreviated list and I’ll bet we can go back everyday and find at least one of those.

          You’d be hard pressed to find an officer or fireman “sniped” once a month. (Sniping being actual targeted gunfire.) I know who has the better odds of being the victim, and they aren’t wearing badges.

    3. avatar Taylor TX says:

      What makes it libtard exactly?

      1. Seems to me that expecting that government agents- considering the power that they wield- would be well-trained and professional is a very conservatlve opinion. Anything else would be an experiment and therefore not conservative. Pulling up five feet from a potentially armed suspect? Buffoonery.

        1. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

          All the left leaning rags reposted around here touting only police should be armed would make one disagree with that first sentence.

        2. avatar Marcus (Aurelius) Payne says:

          Regardless of the dictionary definition, “conservative” doesn’t always mean averse to any change and pro status quo. Just as those who call themselves “progressive” routinely advocate backwards and failed ideas.

      2. avatar Hannibal says:

        Liberals hate cops because cops are part of the oppressive capitalist slave system. And arrest them for weed.

        Conservatives hate cops because cops are part of the oppressive socialist slave system. And give them speeding tickets.

        1. +1. My only comment is that “conservatives” of that stripe are actually right wingers. Though the far right and far left can’t be equally correct they are (IMO) equally crazy. I’ll bet that there is big money in cooking up conspiracy theories for blogs…would that be considered journalism?

        2. avatar Hannibal says:

          Yeah I was being glib. It’s funny, though, that anti-cop folks from both sides could get together and probably agree on some things if they weren’t so busy blaming the other side (anti-cop leftist folks assume it’s the conservatives who are using the police to keep down the minorities and young people while the anti-cop rightest folks tend to see the police as the arm of the democratic party ready to confiscate everyone’s guns)

        3. avatar 16V says:

          Which I never understand. What everybody should be really worried about are bad cops, and the enablers of bad cops – good cops who are afraid to do anything about the bad cops. There need to be better mechanisms than IA.

          Sure, eventually they do something so egregious that it can’t be covered for anymore, but it’s not like it’s the first time. Or the 10th time they’ve been given the gold star pass. Then, the jacket is sanitized of the really bad stuff, they get foisted off to some muni, and the cycle begins anew somewhere else.

  8. avatar Roscoe says:

    The paragraph directly PRIOR to the quote attributed to Vincent E. Henry states:

    “Too much gun-drawing by officers, though, presents other risks: An officer can lose control, be disarmed or unnecessarily escalate to deadly force. That can lead to “tragedy for everybody,” said Vincent E. Henry, a former city police officer who retired in 2002 as a Police Academy commander.”

    Nice try framing the quote with perspective.

    Apparently the projects in question are notoriously a highly dangerous, confined labyrinth of doors, stairways, hallways and rooms/apartments where it is common to walk into…trouble. That’s a dangerous dynamic and though I might find it unnecessary as an officer to constantly hand carry, I can readily envision the need to un-holster – a lot.

    Where this nug rookie screwed up is not being proficient with his sidearm and safe handling. That is a BIG negligent, if not reckless mistake both on the part of the rookie and those responsible for training him for the duties he was assigned.

    I think Liang has proven decisively he is not right for the job and should be canned.

  9. avatar Mk10108 says:

    NYPD is nothing more than a shithole corporation selling itself as the worlds finest with the added benefit of getting a pass when murdering citizens. Mob rule in uniforms, all the while enforcing laws that deny citizens the tools for lawful self protection. Never met a cop that I liked, nor would call a friend. And since they serve themselves and protect their pension, I still maintain if I was present when one got shot, I soon step over one and let’em bleed out than to help. Reason….on to occasions where I helped a cyclist after they were hit, neither officer offered to help saying it was not their job and that they would call an ambulance.

  10. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

    “…and times when they did draw their gun and later learned it was unnecessary.”

    And what was the result of that? Slap on the wrist or paid vacation?

    Yeah, that should reenforce good behavior, don’t mess up, you’ll get a stern talking to or be sent home with pay.

    Us lowly commoners would get to spend some time at the gray bar hotel, getting to know our new wife, Roscoe.

  11. avatar JackieO says:

    No. he didn’t go out intending to kill someone that day, but with the ny trigger on that Glock he did intend to shoot. Put yourself in his place or don’t bottom line, unacceptable.

    1. avatar Marcus (Aurelius) Payne says:

      Good point. I’d forgotten about the NY trigger.

  12. avatar Shire-man says:

    About 11 years ago a CT state trooper staying at my house quite literally said to me on his way out to his shift “I want to f#cking kill somebody today.”

    That was the last time I let him onto my property.

    1. avatar Really? says:

      Did he actually kill anybody? LEOs are as prone to hyperbole and irritable, but meaningless statements as anybody else.

      1. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

        Mechanic: I want to break someone’s vehicle today.

        Cook: I want to sh*t in someone’s food today.

        Banker: I want ruin someone’s credit today.

        Doctor: I want cripple someone’s today.

        Babysitter: I want to lose someone’s child today.

        I think the point is made… Some jokes aren’t f*cking funny.

        1. avatar Really? says:

          Meh, my wife says those exact words 10-15 times a day. I rarely say them more than 3-5 times a day. Maybe it’s because I have a badge and she doesn’t, so I feel a subconscious responsibility to make fewer hyperbolic threats.

  13. avatar Mk10108 says:

    The ONLY thing a cop does different than a well armed law abiding citizen is paperwork and writing tickets (a tax assessor) In fact I’m leaning toward them being useless. Ferguson…didn’t protect businesses. The owners who armed up didn’t get burned. In fact the owners who asked about the plan, was told repeatly that they would be protected. They were not. Cops average time arrive at a crime is 2-6 minutes, that’s if you can get to a phone, meanwhile your on your own.

  14. avatar DaveL says:

    I have no problem with police drawing weapons according to their own discretion. None whatsoever. So long as they’re properly accountable for when bad calls result in harm to innocents.

    1. avatar Hannibal says:

      I agree. I bet some of our CCWers here would have been holding a gun if they had to walk around one of those buildings too.

      But there’s no excuse whatsoever for letting a round off anywhere, much less one that ends up killing a dude.

  15. avatar Ralph says:

    We have to cut the officer some slack because we want him in that stairway, we need him in that stairway and we have the luxury of not knowing that Akai Gurley’s death, while tragic, is what happens when somebody Walks Down the Stairs While Black, which is a felony in NYC. Besides, Gurley made a furtive movement or something.

    1. avatar Hannibal says:

      Al Sharpton, shouldn’t you be in MO?

      1. avatar Mark N. says:

        (I think he’s channeling Nicholson.)

  16. avatar Marcus (Aurelius) Payne says:

    You still don’t point as gun at anything but a positively identified threat. Doing so is either negligent or downright criminally malicious. Period.

    1. avatar Hannibal says:

      Apparently he was pointing the gun at a wall and the bullet ricocheted off and hit the very unlucky man. Doesn’t exculpate the officer but I’d say, if true, it’s a little better.

  17. avatar Allen says:

    “No cop goes out in the morning and says, ‘Hey, I’m going to go kill someone in the stairway.”
    Oh boy, a cop saying cops don’t want to kill; not like that shouldn’t be taken at face value.

    Pft.

  18. avatar Grindstone says:

    I wonder if all the people jumping to the defense of armed agents of the state shooting citizens are also pro-2nd amendment? Because that takes quite a bit of cognitive dissonance.

  19. avatar Dan says:

    Actually I would not be surprised if a significant percentage of the LEO in America DO put on their uniforms everyday hoping they DO get a chance to shoot at someone. When you spend massive amounts of time training to do something it’s a normal for a lot of people to want to put that training to use…..even if that means someone else has a very bad day. A HUGE part of the problem is the “GO HOME AT THE END OF YOUR SHIFT NO MATTER WHAT” mentality that is pounded into LEO from day one at the academy till they retire. The never ending litany repeating that message primes them to be on the edge constantly. The result is the proverbial “shoot first, ask questions later”. Which is why we see videos and read reports of LEO killing someone literally within a second or two of arriving on scene…..HARDLY enough time to know with any certainty if something bad is truly happening and operating on little to know REAL facts. The prevalence of the
    “No Hesitation” targets is a glaring example of the mindset that is being cultivated and inculcated in LEO….and that mindset poses a very real danger to society. The kind of danger that breeds people like Eric Frein.

    Apologists can harrumph and pontificate all they want about how “tough the job is”….that’s irrelevant. LEO is
    hired and tasked by society to PROTECT AND SERVE. Not to “Shoot Firstest and Fastest” and let the union rep and the DA cover your ass later when it’s learned they effed up.

    Put an end to “qualified immunity”. Put an end to turning a blind eye to the actions of LEO…..hold them to the exact same standards as ANY citizen. If I would be charged and tried for an action then if an LEO acted that way they must be charged and tried. If not then we do not live in a land with laws…just a land with rules that are applied only to certain people and not to others….and THAT is a recipe for revolution.

    1. avatar El Mac says:

      @Dan, soooo……which agency/PD turned down your application Dan?

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