TTAG reader Ray H. writes:

I can say with 100% certainty that short barrel rifles (SBRs) are the absolute best guns for home defense. Not pistols. How can I know this with such certainty? Because when a SWAT team enters a home, SBRs are the firearms that they use to protect themselves. SWAT does not and will not enter a dangerous situation with pistols, and civilians shouldn’t have to either. Wait? What? Of course SWAT teams need SBRs, but what do you need it for? Well, are police executioners? No, they only have guns to protect themselves and to protect others. So do we. So if they need their SBR to clear bad guys out of a house, I also need a SBR to clear bad guys out of my house . . .

While the gun control crowd has gotten people to think of law enforcement gun rights as different from civilian gun rights, it is unnatural, and I think exposing this false dichotomy and exposing this invalid separation of force is paramount to winning hearts and minds back to firearms freedom. If we can get the public to realize that civilians need weapons for the same reason that police do, all other gun control arguments become invalid.

For instance, a federal judge recently upheld Maryland’s assault weapons ban. I read her opinion and she cited that police in Maryland were unable to find a single instance of a civilian needing more than 10 rounds to defend themselves. She coupled that with another statistic that most civilian uses of firearms only include two rounds or less being fired and then subsequently deemed high-capacity magazines as “dangerous and unusual” and unnecessary for self-defense.

Wait, what? Well if I don’t need a 17-round magazine in my pistol, do the police need them? Yes. Why? To protect themselves and to protect others. Well that’s why I need 17 rounds!

I’m upset at the plaintiff’s legal counsel for not attempting to draw parallels between police need and civilian needs in that case. It would have negated the judge’s position that high-capacity magazines were not necessary. My cousin is a police officer. He shot 14 rounds at a single armed robbery suspect who was barricaded in a car shooting back at him. Why did my cousin shoot 14 rounds? Because that’s all he had. His partner shot 16 times at the same perp, he had to reload. But really, why did they shoot so many rounds? Because bullets lose their power after penetrating barriers and the point of police shooting anybody is not to exact justice, but to stop a threat. Do civilians need to stop threats? Yes.

I think the future of civilian defense statistics need to incorporate police shootings as part of the context. Police use their guns a heck of lot more times than civilians do for lawful self-defense. But just because police use guns more doesn’t mean our need for the same types of guns is less. Although the Maryland police couldn’t find any instance of a Marylander shooting more than 10 rounds in self-defense, I’m sure they could have found dozens of instances of their own police needing more than 10 rounds.

I tried searching for hours and couldn’t come across any nationwide statistics that are readily available for how often police use AR15s, SBRs, machine guns etc to protect themselves and protect others. But I’m sure it’s a lot. When the next Piers Morgan ask’s how many times do you know somebody who used an AR15 to defend themselves, we should be able to point right to that statistic, people using AR15s to defend themselves. They may be police, but they’re people just like you and I.

Likewise, I can’t find any readily available statistics for the number of police shootings each year and the number of shots that they fired, but I’m willing to bet they shoot more than 10 rounds per officer per instance in a fairly high rate of occurences. If they need the extra capacity so do I. Not that I would only need 10 rounds if we restricted police to 10 rounds, it’s that we don’t restrict police to having just 10 rounds because they need more, and so do we! They have found that short barreled machine guns like the MP5 are the absolute best guns for clearing bad guys out of houses. Wait!!!! What if a bad guy were in my house!? I don’t get an MP5 submachine guns to protect my house?

Since there isn’t a level-headed politician that would ban police from having more than 10 rounds in their magazine nor is there a level-headed politician that would ban SWAT teams from having SBRs and machine guns, we know that they are the most ideal weapons suited for home defense and pass the tests for constitutional rights according to Heller and McDonald.

I recently came across a new gun rights organization that is advocating for expanded rights regarding NFA items. The organization is NFAFA. They want to repeal the Hughes Amendment, get rid of CLEO sign offs or at least make it into CLEO “shall” sign, and they want to remove Silencers, Short Barrel Rifles, and Short Barrel Shotguns from the registry. I’d like to see more people support them in their cause, because it’s an area of advocacy that needs more attention from the gun community.

Roy Harden

(Note to editor, I’m not a member of NFAFA, don’t work for them, and not personally associated with them at this time. I just like them.)

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147 Responses to Ray H: Short-Barreled Rifles Are the Best Guns for Home Defense

  1. SBRs are cool but I would like to still have some hearing after a DGU. Anyone who’s shot an SBR knows they are LOUD!

        • It’s like if they would tell you “OK, now your car is fine, but you have to register your muffler or run a straight pipe…”

      • And I’m sure you sleep with electronic hearing protection on every night. Civilians should be allowed to own silencers because they make using firearms LESS DANGEROUS, not the opposite.

        • And I am sure you sleep with your rifle slung around your body. Just hang your ear muffs on the mag so they are there when you need them. Suppressor is the way to go but popping on your hearing protection takes two seconds.

        • No, I don’t but I also don’t sleep with a shotgun slung across my chest either. I keep hearing protection with the shotgun in the closet.

          I was just giving them another option, I’m on the gun freedom side, so check the grandstanding. clown.

        • I often do, simply because it’s a small house and I got to sleep earlier than everyone else. My electronic muffs are low profile, and thus comfortable to sleep in.

        • If you’re firing a supersonic bullet, a suppressor may not be enough. I don’t know all the circumstances, but I remember RF saying that he has permanent hearing loss from firing a rifle with a suppressor and no hearing protection.

      • That’s a good idea if you live alone, but I don’t want to have to take the time to tell everyone else in the house to cover their ears before I go see what’s bumping in the night. I’d rather just have the can.

    • I accidentally shot my M92 once without earpro, in a very wide wooded clearing. Even with the bell booster installed, it was unbearably loud. Cannot imagine firing an SBR indoors without earpro.

      • I’ve shot an M-4 inside a building before, and yes it is loud. Can I say my permanent hearing loss and tinitis is a direct result from that event…no, but it damn sure didn’t help. But I’d still risk increased hearing loss v.s. whatever the individual who is kicking in my front door has planned for me. BTW, a suppressor on a M-4/AR-15 doesn’t help that much anyways

        • Shooting an AR with a suppressor is a HUGE difference, especially a SBR. When shooting at the range, surrounded by walls on 3 sides, the act of me firing will not trip my electronic ear pro. I can do that by clapping my hands ironically. It does not silence the shot, but it brings it into the realm of safe for your hearing. This can also be proven by any department with an entry team having several suppressors in stock for that very reason. You can’t communicate if you cannot hear.

        • Not quite to sure about that. I’ve fired an SBR ar suppressed right after an SBR ar with a compensator. The the compensated on was uncomfortable shooting outside with both ear plugs and muffs on. The suppressed could be fired without ear pro. It was still uncomfortably loud but it after 200 rounds I still have all my hearing, except for the bit I lost when someone decided to touch of a .338.

      • Tell me about it… I did the same thing with my 8″ barrel .300 Blackout AR-15 once and it was so loud it was unbelievable. I’d love to use that rifle for home defense but even if I put on hearing protection it would make my wife and son deaf. I really need to get a can for it, because the pistol I use now isn’t exactly quiet either.

    • Wanna know a secret? guns fired indoors, especially after long periods of ambient noise at very low levels, are loud as fvck. No getting around that. Your shotgun or handgun is going to be loud too.

      Or you can put electronic earpro at a easy to reach location and actually train.

  2. Don’t know if it’s possible to do any of it. Federal laws don’t really go away, ever. 99% do not think on principle, they think in terms of convenience and cultural inertia. Without a good marketing campaign, we’re stuck with the NFA and GCA.

    • Piece by piece man. Suppressors first, that’s an easy one. Then SBRs and SBS’s then the big daddy, repealing hughes and beyond.

      Every crack and chink in the armor is a victory. The push to take race off 4473s for instance. Lets get behind that. Anything to show the law is not a ratchet. It can be repealed if only in part.

      We need to make NFA more widely known, make it something all gun owners talk about, not just hardcore blog readers and shooters. Let your rep in congress know what you think about NFA. Tell the NRA to make it a priority. Lastly, elect a GOP house, senate and executive, then hold their asses to the fire or hound them out. I don’t want to get wrapped up to much on that point, so skip it if you don’t like it.

      I live in California, I will never get an NFA item (with some odd exceptions), federal law or not. Im going to join NFAFA anyway. Its important.

      • “Piece by piece man. Suppressors first, that’s an easy one. Then SBRs and SBS’s then the big daddy, repealing hughes and beyond.”

        Slight disagreement. I think SBR’s/SBS’s are far more likely to come before suppressors, because they are a much easier sell. With out the banning of pistols it’s justification was nonsensical to begin with. Now between things like AR pistols, the Sig arm brace, and that all it takes if a criminal want’s an SBR/SBS is a hacksaw, convincing the general public that deregulating them is not going to cause problems.

        Suppressors on the other the anti’s have a better chance of pushing back. It’s an assassin’s weapon they will claim while putting out video of an NYPD or LAPD officer shooting a .22 pistol with the best suppressor they can find, loaded with loaded with the weakest .22 short ammo out there, with the camera an mic as far away as possible though zoomed in to look like it’s close, while either the “reporter” narrates over the officers shooting or there is no cancellation of the wind noise, to make them appear as if they almost if not fully silence a firearm.

        Remember they will do every thing they can to rig all demonstrations in their favor to “prove” their point, like that anti college student campus carry demonstration, where I think it was NBC news rigged the test to guarantee all the students failed to stop the “mass shooter”.

        • “With out the banning of pistols … [the short barreled rifle and shotgun ban] justification was nonsensical to begin with. Now between things like AR pistols, the Sig arm brace, and that all it takes if a criminal want’s an SBR/SBS is a hacksaw, convincing the general public that deregulating them is not going to cause problems.”

          This is right on the money. There is absolutely no sense or justification for federal government infringement to own short barreled rifles or shotguns. It is simply another impediment to firearms ownership, another legal “minefield” for firearms owners, and an illegal/unconstitutional source of tax revenue.

      • Okay great! SBRs first.

        I will wait for the day when we see ‘for the children’ calls to normalize suppressors. Just like in Europe.. You don’t want the little children to go deaf do you?

        How about an old man, a judge or something, ‘Ive been shooting my whole life and now im deaf, a simple safety device could have saved my hearing’ We’ll have to think of some reason why he just can wear ear pro.

        Lets start making those arguments. Why is no rep running an NFA Reform Act bill every year? Gun grabber throw out all kinds of unpassable garbage, lets gets moving on this.

        • Reasons why we need suppressors:

          Hunting, It’s impractical to wear hearing pro since you need to need to listen to help find game. Even with electronic hearing pro you lose the ability to tell which direction a sound is coming from.

          Noise pollution, Around firearms ranges and even around the woods during hunting season there can be a ton of noise from gun shots, suppressors can tone that town so it’s not as much a public nuisance.

          Self defense, You are not going to wear hp all the time and criminals are not going to give you time to put your’s on. Nor are any people around you are going to have hp, so if you need to use a firearm for self defense it is nice not to blow out your’s and everyone around you including children’s eardrums.

          I am not a fan of the introducing the legislation every year idea though, because I believe that will only serve to weaken us. Now this is probably because I am a bit of a pessimist, but I honestly believe that our power in politics is mostly a myth. It comes from the fact that when they went after firearms in 94 they were doing other things as well that was pissing the public off, which is why many of them were then replaced. Instead of accepting that people were unhappy about a bunch of things they decided blame solely lies on the firearms issue and the NRA and gun owners. That’s wear I fear we got a lot of our power from, simply the belief that we are powerful so politicians give into us out of fear of that supposed power, rather then us actually having that power. Even after Newtown I don’t believe it was so much us rather then the simple fact that the republicans were going to oppose almost any thing Obama supported.

          Getting back to my original point because I think most of our power is really an illusion every time we fail we put a kink in that illusion. Then if we fail to replace those who voted against it, the illusion starts to slip. The more we slip the less powerful we appear and the more emboldened our opposition becomes and the more willing politicians become to ignore us. No it’s best to wait till conditions are right for the best chance to introduce such legislation. Of course I could be completely wrong and we are every bit as powerful as we appear, and I am simply being a major pessimist here.

  3. While I definitely agree that what’s good for the cops is good for the citizen, I personally prefer handguns for home defense because they are easily concealable. Yes, I prefer a concealable weapon for home defense. A while back I had a Chinese delivery guy with the wrong address ring my doorbell around about midnight. I was awake, but having no idea who it was, I answered the door with a loaded .44 magnum revolver in my right hand, held behind my back. The delivery guy figured out his mistake without having to change his drawers and had the delivery guy not been a delivery guy I was about as ready to fight as I could have been. Anyway, there are scores of other possible situations like that, maybe a woman is frantically banging on your door in the wee hours – is this a set up for a home invasion or a lady in distress? If you’re looking for massively overwhelming power at inside the house distances, I’d go with the venerable 12ga. If you’re looking for something handy that will reach out to 200 or 300 yards, that’s where the SBR comes into it’s own.

    • I like the shotgun option for when you actually have to shoot. Home defense is not “clearing rooms” so the length of the weapon is not as important as stopping power. Nothing beats a 12 gauge for stopping power and it doesn’t matter what you load it with #4 buck through slugs are all going to get it done. The weapon of choice is not as important to home defense as construction of the home itself. If we want to seriously defend ourself in the home then we can prevent an invasion in the first place.
      #1 Install alarm and cameras.
      #2 Reinforce doors. Most dead bolts only lock into door jams. When the door was installed, the studded openning was made bigger than the door jamb by a few inches. Most doors are pre-hung in the jamb with moulding installed at the shop. A sub will separate the two parts of the jamb and will “sandwich” the openning and only use a finnish nail through the brick mould on the outside and the case mould on the inside. Hardly anyone properly shims a door or window these days. There is dead airspace behind the jamb so the dead bolt is only held by weak pine or poplar wood. There should be a stud alongs side the jamb that the bolt goes into and even better would be a steel plate screwed onto that stud. An extra dead bolt near the top of the door doubles the strength of the entry.
      #3 Flood lights.

      • Deadbolts SHOULD be shimmed and the plate on the jamb should be installed with long enough screws to reach into the trimmer. But a determined attacker can still get through in seconds. Often times home invasions start off with ringing a doorbell though. They will have a cover story if you answer and they are either trying to get inside and out of sight before they pull a weapon or they are simply trying to confirm that no one is home before breaking in.

        I keep a couple of 3″ #4 buck in front of a couple of 3″ 00 buck, just in case 6 rounds of .44 doesn’t do the trick.

  4. Let’s talk about short barreled shotguns.

    I’m not sure I buy the stat that police use their guns in self defense more in a year than the other 300+ million citizens of this country.

    But really, let’s talk about short barreled shotguns for home defense. Unless you live in a remote country setting the sbs is probably a better choice for the majority of us who happen to be city dwellers.

    • You know unless you are planning to use something like birdshot, shotguns are going to have far more penetration through drywall than most rifle rounds

      • My standard house load is 00 buck. But I have used birdshot inside a house. Unless you live in the Playboy Mansion the ranges inside most homes are so short that even birdshot mostly hits in a solid clump.

        For those of us in heavily settled areas there are valid reasons for a shotgun. I’m not worried about drywall penetration. I’m worried about killing the neighbor 2 blocks over.

        A defensive use against an armed intruder implies a certain amount of desperation on the defendors part. A shotgun is much more likely to kill on the first hit than either a pistol or a rifle.

        Lastly. I live in CA. 10 round mag limits and bullet buttons put “assualt rifles” in the novelty camp here.

        • Has there ever been a homeowner who was defending themselves from a true home invasion and who then accidentally killed an adjoining neighbor by a stray bullet and then sent to jail by a jury because of it? Example #1 any one?

          I’m not saying this is a reason to be reckless but I doubt I’d convict somebody in this scenario if I was on a jury.

      • The 5.56 can easily be loaded to reduce penetration and dump energy quickly. You can have a load like a 55 grain VMAX which will penetrate less than 12 inches of ballistic gelatin and produce a large, shallow wound channel.

        But if most rifle rounds include .30-30, .308, .270, .30-06, 7mm mag, 300 win mag, .243 Win, 6.8 SPC, .45-70, etc. – those rounds smoke handguns and 00 buck in terms of penetration. That’s why they are big game rifles.

      • Sean, are you really stating that 00 buck shot from a 12G shotgun will penetrate walls more than a 5.56mm even only fired from a 10.5″ barrel (assuming you have the required NFA paperwork of course)?

        • A 16″ carbine can push a 55grain or lighter projectile fast enough that it will start to come apart as soon as it touches drywall.

          A 10″ SBR can’t generate the kind of velocity to cause that sort of violence. If you’re going to SBR for home defense, go to a larger caliber (.300, 6.8, etc) with the heaviest subsonic you can load, and have safe firing lanes with backstops.

      • Bull! Anything that is going to penetrate sufficiently and incapacitate an attacker is going to go through walls with lethal energy retained on the other side. Get used to it and practice. Choose the weapon/ammo most likely to score hits with and most likely for those hits to put the aggressor on the ground. You will have to accept a certain level of risk unfortunately.

      • Anything that will penetrate a bad guy sufficient to reach vital organs is going to penetrate interior walls of a home. That said, there are a great many myths surrounding the topic of overpenetration.

        It would behoove those with serious concerns to research the findings of various credible experiments, or conduct some themselves. TTAG has run some articles on this topic before, which are an excellent start.

        Unquestioned Internet conventional wisdom, however, should be avoided. In its puniness of factual foundation, such collective wisdom is indistinguishable from shared ignorance.

  5. My HD weapon is my AR-15. Not a pistol, not a shotgun. I use an AR 15 because it is going to ruin a bad guys day and not ruin the neighbors from over penetration. It is a 16″ barrel version, I would go shorter if there were no NFA rules. I want a silencer in the future to allow me to hear if I ever need to use it. The rifle also has a single point sling which means it will be more difficult for it to be taken from me and turned on me. Also I can smash you in the face with the butt stock if needed. An SBR is great, but it is also very loud as has been stated by other people. If it had a can on it, then it would be perfect.

    • Mostly same here, though don’t be too fooled on the overpenetration part. Check out the AR pistols (in case you haven’t already). Coupled with the Sig Sauer brace you’ve basically got an ATF approved SBR with no tax or registration.

    • I am sure everyone can realistically claim that they clean their rifle every time it goes back in the safe. That one time you had to use it for home defense you just happened to forget to remove the big fram and oil filter adapter when you were done cleaning.

  6. Tavor>SBR. Of course, I’d love to have the option of an SBR and the reasonable chance to own a suppressor even more. Until then…

    • Tavor is much heavier than your typical SBR AR, much less some of the specialized lighter options (like e.g. Extar).

      • True. I was actually surprised how much heavier the Tavor was compared to an AR. And I don’t have a light mounted on it – jury’s still out on that one, with cost being the biggest hangup I have to get by. But truthfully, I don’t mind the weight. The gun balances beautifully, and the weight just soaks up all the recoil. It’s a fantastic shooter.

  7. Under current legal and political circumstances, I would disagree with the author .

    Perhaps the day will come when people recognize that bad people are not so because of hardware.Sadly it is not yet upon us. Even in relatively pro gun states, there are district attorneys and civil lawyers who would tear apart a citizen who dare used such a politically incorrect weapon as an SBR. There is a survey which shows that juries gave harsher sentences in a hypothetical trial of a home defense civilian with an AR15 then to a defendant with a Mini 14 wood stock model.

    It is an unpleasent thing to note, but it does one no good to clear the home like a ninja with an NFA weapon ,only to lose ones home and life’s assets in a BS legal case.In review, I would personally stick to over the counter firearms, and the closer I lived to a Blue Zone, the more basic the guns would get. NFA items are , IMO, a safe queen only proposition for non-uniform folk.

    • How can a district attorney tear anyone apart for using a SBR as long as it is legally owned?

      As far as hypotheticals go, anyone can hypothetical any situation. With that said, I would like to see a linked citation for your hypothetical jury case you stated. It would be interesting to see all the details of said hypothetical scenario you just used.

      As far as SBR’s being a safe queen, that depends on the individual. For you, maybe so. For many folks I know, not even close.

      • “How can a district attorney tear anyone apart for using a SBR as long as it is legally owned?”

        Zimmerman was attacked for having a Keltec and carrying a round in the chamber. Crazier things have happened.

        • I followed the trial and that tactic had no play with the jury. Also, that was a keltec pistol. Not a SBR. Your post about hypotheticals and DA’s centered around the “appearance” a SBR would make and now you are talking about Zimmerman’s pistol. Using that logic then infers no matter what one uses the attorneys will go after the choice of tool. if that’s the case then using a SBR is no more a liability than any other firearm.

          In the end use what you are comfortable with. I’m just not buying into the what-if mentality when it comes to the defense of myself, my family and my home.

          Regards.

      • Sadly, they can. It was discussed in a recent Self-Defense Law class I took and that segment was taught by an attorney who had been both a state and federal prosecutor. You shoot someone with your SBR. You claim self-defense. The prosecutor doesn’t buy it for whatever reason and decides to go after you. He will parade your SBR in front of the jury. He will get experts to come in and say that it is a military spec ops weapon that no normal person would own. He will make the argument that you are a “paramilitary vigilante” and a “gun nut” who has been just waiting for his chance to shoot someone. The jurors, having been already screened as being non-gun owners, will buy it.

        On top of that, he gets a warrant for all your guns. He has the cops lay them out in the squad room for a photo shoot, just like they do after a big drug bust and they line up all the weapons they seized. He will characterize your collection as an “arsenal” and your hundreds of rounds of ammo as a “stockpile.” Once he has the jury thinking you are out on the fringe, then they will start to discount your self-defense claim. Keep in mind that SD is an affirmative defense, meaning you’re already admitted to the shooting, so now you have to prove you’re innocent by reason of self-defense and it is no longer a “reasonable doubt” situation.

        • Examples please.

          BTW, haven’t you heard that there are too many lawyers already and everybody hates lawyers sight unseen (and deservedly so).

          Also there’s always the eternal question…. Are lawyers azzholes before they go into law school or does law school make all lawyers azzholes? You know that chicken/egg thing.

        • +1
          Add to the fact that if you get rung up on state charges for using your SBR/SBS/suppressor, you’re also looking at federal charges for the use of NFA items in commission of a crime — charges that have very, very long minimum sentences.

          And don’t kid yourself . . . If you are in a jurisdiction where the DA goes after you for a DGU (either because he’s anti-gun or is under Zimmerman-type political pressure), they are going to use every tool in the box.

          The nominally increased advantage of a NFA weapon for home defense is just not worth the increased legal risk. I’ll stick with a handgun, 18″ barreled shotgun, or maybe something like the Sig MPX. With ear protection.

        • If I use my canned-SBR in home defense, I won’t be charged. It’s 3am and you’re in my bedroom. If I’m wrong, have you seen the photos of my 3 year-old and 7 month-old little girls, jury?

        • What I would like to see is actual cases of DA’s going after someone who used a SBR for lawful self defense rather than third party hypotheticals. So far it’s a lot of what ifs with no actual cases on record.

    • You know what’s truly awesome with the SIG brace? Extar EXP-556. The thing is 3 lbs unloaded, that’s lighter than some revolvers! And that muzzle brake of theirs actually works great – I think it would be comfortable even in full auto.

      The only tricky part is not getting your eye brows singed when shooting …

  8. Pistols are best to negotiate doors and lights to get the family to a safe room, which best defended with a long gun

        • Additionally swat teams will often have someone armed with a pistol who does not need to have their hands both occupied and can easily holster securely to deal with something that does not require bullets at the moment.

        • Again as I said why do SMUs use SBRs for hostage rescues instead of handguns. Hostage rescues are the one time that one man room entries and clearances become the norm. And what tactics would change in a single man clearance that would make a handgun more beneficial that a SBR.

  9. i agree that short barreled rifles are an excellent choice for home defense but going on house clearing mission, even in your own home, is down right foolish. Get to safe room, barricade you and your family in it and wait for the cavalry. If the perp(s) want to crash your position give it to them good.

    • Clearing homes is not an impossible task. You may be calling cops to do the job who can’t shoot as well as you can, and don’t know your home nearly as well as you do.

      I’ll clear my own home – letting the dogs out first to investigate / attack. We’ve got a couple of Tasers set up so the wife can back me up. I’ve also got spare body armor. YMMV.

      • Clearing a home, especially yourself, is walking into a ambush.

        The bad guy will be hiding and watching you. He will see you long before you see him.

        Best approach is to move within the house as little as possible with a handgun so you have a hand free to deal with doors, lights and family members. Get your family to a safe room–a room that they family knows to gather in an emergency– that has a phone and long guns. Defend that room with a long gun.

        • Can’t agree, at least not in my house. Dogs will be in it from the start, so I know precisely where the perp is from the get go. Add to that 3 motion activated lights in downstairs rooms(Wifey insists on night lights, I prefer moving in the dark, so we compromised) which show where anyone moving inside house is. Yes, the sensors are set above 36 inches so cats and dogs are not constantly tripping them.

          Choosing to clear your home during a break in is a matter of training and skill level, plus the 7 P Principal. Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

        • I understand it’s not advisable to clear a house if you know you have an intruder, but what about when you don’t know?

          I can’t tell you how many times growing up and as an adult that the home security system alarm has gone off in the middle of the night and all it was was a bird flying into a window or a poor connection in the door sensors. Not in just one house by the way, just seemed to happen a lot.

          Do you still hunker down behind cover in a case like this?

        • That is the problem with any mechanical alarm system. Any kind of dog will act to confirm that the threat is real and if it’s the right kind of dog then you will know before the house is even breached. Still if you suspect a bad guy go to a secure place and call 911. Remember if the guy tries to get through your safe room door you know exactly where he is and he doesn’t know where you are. I won’t say it will be like shooting a target at the range but shooting for the center of the door will have a very high hit probability. Even a miss is going to send the perp packing because he knows that he has to come through a narrow entry not knowing where you are. That is a virtual suicide mission.

        • I don’t accept your defeatist attitude, your assessment of my own preparedness, or the fact that you don’t realize the motivation that my dogs have to protect their dad. I’ve got kids in multiple rooms to gather up, and they have Taser C2’s with lights and lasers as a backup.

          Regardless, you are welcome to handle your own home as you see fit.

        • “I don’t accept your defeatist attitude” That is my take on this “hide from the bad person” strategy.

        • Your plan has all the confidence of the French Plan XVII of 1914 and will likely have the same outcome. I will go with Meade’s strategy at Gettysburg of grab the high ground and let my opponent bash himself into oblivion.

    • I agree. As long as you and your family are safe in one defensible room together, it is downright stupid to go seek out the bad guy(s).

    • Most house floor plans have master and family bedrooms separated by kitchen, living room, dining room, etc. In these scenarios, locking and waiting isn’t an option. I want a weapon to take the fight to those that would threaten or harm my family. All around – AR pistol works for me.

        • In my scenario I’d run into a totally unfair fight to defend my family, armed or not. At least with an AR in the dark I know the layout.

        • Your house layout sounds like a ranch. The standard two story house has all the bedrooms on the second floor. And it’s not a fair fight if he has to come to you through a narrow opening.

        • “In my scenario I’d run into a totally unfair fight to defend my family, armed or not. At least with an AR in the dark I know the layout.”

          Even if you didn’t *have* to?

          The way I see it, the best response to an aggressor entering your territory, which you know better than he does is “ambush.” Lie in wait, in a defensible position (assuming you have managed to gather your loved ones).

          If you go off searching, you lose most of the advantage you had. If you are then killed, who protects your family? What’s safer for you, is safer for them.

  10. SBRs are cool, but just because cops use them doesn’t make them better… Cops around here drive Crown Vics and those things suck.

    Velocity is everything with the 5.56, and you don’t get high velocity out of short barrels.

    I’ll keep the Glock 9mm by the bed and the standard length pump 12ga in the closet, you can keep the SBRs.

    Now, that being said, repealing the NFA.

    • You needed velocity with certain types of 5.56 rounds. Well designed rounds like MK262, 318 or nowhere as depenedent on velocity for terminal ballistics and are amazing man stoppers out of SBRs.

        • M855 which is extremely dependent on speed, and is what has really given the 5.56 round its undeserved reputation the last 25 years.

        • Tactical buckshot works great in my Mossberg 930, and shooting it indoors won’t blow my ears out.

          But if I could get a suppressor without prison time my home defense gun would be a 300 BLK pistol with a Sig brace (or a real stock) and a 110 grain Hornady VMAX at 2000+ FPS with a 30 round mag.

      • Don’t blindly assume that better rounds will “just work” out of your SBR. Check the muzzle velocity for your barrel length and a given load, and then look up the actual fragmentation threshold. You’ll find that e.g. Mk262 might still not fragment reliably, given a sufficiently short (8″) barrel.

        Generally speaking, the loads that seem to work best for ultra-short barrels are those with Barnes TSX bullets. Yes, it won’t fragment, just expand – but it will expand very reliably, and offer good penetration at that.

        • I don’t blindly assume anything, I have personally seen the effects of 262 and 318 from short barrels rifles, and have also seen what 855 does. I would recommend frang rounds but have yet to find oOneida trust on the civilian market.

  11. A lot depends on where you keep your weapon, during the daytime, and at night, when you are in bed, asleep.
    An AR15 is nice to have around in your closet, or near the front door (put another one near the back door!) out of sight.
    At night, it’s a different situation. I keep a nine with in reach, it’s hidden under the lip of something, but I can grab it in a second. Unless you are going to make a “cradle” for a rifle, attached to the side of your bed, or box springs. A pistol will usually be much faster to grab and get it pointed.
    Your really not gonna have much time if you wake up to some dude coming into your bedroom.

  12. My HD gun is my 10.3″ AR15 in 300 BLK. In addition to having 30 rounds, I like that I can drop my gun if I need both hands and still retain the gun, and I feel that I’m more likely to be able to maintain positive control of my rifle in the event that someone tries to take it from me; I also like knowing that I’m much more likely to hit my exact target with the rifle than a handgun, and effectively zero recoil means I’ll be almost immediately back on target after a shot. No matter how good I am, I can’t say the same for my handguns, they always take me substantially longer.

    And being a woman, despite knowing how to use my command voice, there is always the chance that the BG isn’t going to take me seriously when he sees a handgun in my hand. I feel, with no basis in experience for my claim, that a BG looking down my AR is more likely going to make him soil his pants than a handgun.

    SBR all the way, for me.

    • Do you keep ear protection handy, next to, or on your gun, and do you realize you might not have time to put them on? just saying.

      • Correct me if I’m wrong, but the reason 5.56 SBRs make so much noise is that the powder is still buring as the bullet leaves the barrel, making the explosion continue in past the muzzle. 300 BLK was designed for short barrels and uses up the charge in a 9″ barrel, meaning the burn is done by the time the bullet leaves the barrel and should not be nearly as loud.

        I’ve yet to fire one, but I do have a lower with a Sig brace that I plan on using as the foundation for a 300 BLK pistol for that very reason.

        Either way, whether I leave ear pro on the nightstand or the gun can be shot without ear bleeding, I want THE most effective tool to protect my family with if something goes down. Accuracy, ballistics, maneuverability, capacity, ease of adding a red dot, light, etc. and the fact that it can be tethered to me with a sling (less likely it can be snatched and turned on me if I was to get jumped) makes it seem like the best choice. Of course two is one and one is none, which is why I won’t plan to move the XD .45 from my nightstand safe or put it’s retention holster in the holster box downstairs.

      • 1. The powder is fully burned before the bullet leaves the barrel, making my SBR no louder than its long cousins;

        2. I keep subsonic rounds loaded

        3. Yes, I do in fact have ear pro right next to the gun (And NV too, but that’s a different topic). Which I’ll use depending on my perception of the threat.

        4. My can is still in “jail” but that may or may not be added to my HD gun, depending on whether I feel the added length makes it too unwieldy in my home.

        • Yes, SBRs are louder. Subsonic is quieter, but at less than half the velocity of supersonic, the ballistics drop down to that of a .45acp. 220gr at 1000fps. You loose the terminal ballistic benefits of a rifle by using subsonic.

        • “Yes, SBRs are louder. Subsonic is quieter, but at less than half the velocity of supersonic, the ballistics drop down to that of a .45acp. 220gr at 1000fps. You loose the terminal ballistic benefits of a rifle by using subsonic.”

          Maybe so, but that still leaves a lot of advantages over a .45:
          More ammo capacity.
          Less felt recoil.
          Faster followup shows.
          Better accuracy.
          And with a stock/brace relying on your trigger pull discipline in a high stress situation is a lot less important, as you don’t have the same barrel movement when pulling the trigger that you would with a pistol (at least not enough to be a problem at home defense ranges).

  13. Weren’t Constitutional rights meant for only those who could afford to pay their tax stamps and insane inflated prices for full autos? Or the $200 and premium for suppressors and SBRs? Yea…the founding fathers MUST have meant that…

  14. Al well in good with arm brace used from the shoulder, but why do you have to put it in the ATFs face with an explanation by video and the middle finger. Just MHO. It like a neener neener neener that is going to f__ it up for everyone that wants to play too.

    If I were the ATF, I would re-nig on the Sig arm brace descision after seeing this. They now see the publics “intent” with the arm brace. Let’s be smart about these little gifts……

    • I know this is going to come off kind of d-baggy, but;

      1. It’s “all well and good,” not “well in good.”

      2. “Renege,” not “re-nig.” Plus one for good vocabulary, but minus several thousand for deciding to spell it like a racist jackwagon.

      As far as the content of your post, you’re spot on. If I was the ATF agent who’d written the opinion on the arm brace, I might be contemplating a new stance.

      • You are right. Sheesh, I used to work with professional editors regularly. It was late and I was tired. Sorry. Stretching it with rascist comment…..

  15. SBRs are the bestest because SWAT uses them? SWAT also kicks down doors on unconfirmed evidence, shoots every dog and half the people in sight, and flash-bangs babies. You’ll forgive me if I don’t just assume their weapon choices are any better than their other ones.

    • Not to mention, if a SWAT officer lets fly a couple wild rounds, and they kill the guy two houses down, it’ll all be whitewashed as an “unfortunate accident”. If a guy defending his home does the same thing, he’ll likely be prosecuted for reckless endangerment at the very least, possibly manslaughter. In any case, the “regular guy” is going to be open to a civil suit that the cop won’t have to worry about.

  16. +1 pump shotgun. For 200bucks my pardner pump is a fearsome home defense weapon. Add in a semi auto pistol and I’m good. If you’re worried about the neighborhood use a lighter buckshot or even birdshot. No plans for a short barreled rifle.

      • Pardner Pump with #4 buck FTW!

        I love my PP. I shoot skeet with it, but I was getting laughed at so much I just ordered one with wood furniture and a field barrel for the trap range.

  17. Everything has their advantages and disadvantages. SBRs are loud and need 2 hands usually to use effectively. They also are generally more accurate than pistol, can carry more rounds, and fire rounds that are generally more effective than pistol rounds. I think most gun owners know that, and will take that into account when they choose a weapon that’s right for protecting their family at home.

    I will say this: having recently put together a m92 AK pistol with a SIG brace, muzzle device, and US-made optic mounting solution, it’s an awesome “car gun” and home defense rifle… 30 rounds of HP or SP 7.62×39 ammo is beastly. I took to a “move and shoot” event at the local range, and the short barrel and compact size definitely make it lot easier to handle around barriers, obstacles, etc. Sure, that’s something I thought I understand beforehand, but using one hands-on, in actual practice, was a great experience.

    SBRs for everybody!

    • You said AK pistol, but it’s also a “home defense rifle.” I thought I’d call you on it just to make you aware of it. The thing does sound capable for its purpose….

    • Sweet. I’ve been itching for an AK pistol. Only thing I feared was the possibility of the heavier 7.62 going through a few more barriers than I’d like compared to 223.
      In HD scenarios; either way. Don’t miss. #4 Know your target and what’s beyond it.

  18. Judges in states like MD, NJ and NY will contrive any logic and overlook any opposing caselaw necessary to come to the conclusion they want… which is to ratify any gun control put forth by those states. And it seems the federal courts will largely do the same.

    Bizarrely the west coast has had better luck recently. Not like the USSC is interested in actually making a decision from the split circuits.

  19. Great MP-5 reference, because upon reading the title my first thought was “forget the SBR AR, I want a select fire MP-5…”

    Thank you for the article and the passion!

    • Agreed.

      I really have no interest in SBRs(outside of an AKS-74U, and a real HK 416; in my dreams I know), but I think a suppressed MP5 is my ideal home defense gun if I had the choice(and they didn’t cost $25k because of artificially inflated prices due to stupid laws). Lots of firepower at short range. Accurate and controllable, and you wouldn’t have to worry about bleeding from your ears afterwards.

  20. It’s hard to make a call when both of your hands are tied up with your long gun. SWAT teams don’t have to unlock their iPhones to summon the police in the middle of a raid.

    And as others pointed out, SWAT teams have cans so they could actually hear the people on the other end of the line pick up if they did call someone during a raid.

  21. SBR’s are great for use in home defense, and they are legal to do so with, with one major caveat. If you do use it for a DGU, your legal defense better be air tight. NFA items have minimum sentencing guidelines when they are used in a crime, so even a minor trumped up charge from a self defense scenario could mean massive jail time.

  22. 9mm for HD here. I live in town, it’s rural but there are houses close to mine. Just about any rifle cartridge would have too great a penetration and could risk my neighbors’ lives. I’ll stick with my 9. If it comes out of the bad guy, it ain’t going far. Can’t say the same for 223/7.62.

  23. Really? Do your neighbors agree? Its them who will be eating your rds after they blow through your walls and then through their walls. Wow. Just, wow. Simply because police do stupid sh*t does not mean everyone should do stupid sh*t. Next you will tell us its just fine to throw flashbangs and teargas grenades into rooms with small children. Why? Cuz cops get away with it so it must be just fine.

    • “Its them who will be eating your rds after they blow through your walls and then through their walls.”

      and what the fvck do you think pistol and shotgun rounds are going to do!?

      Here’s a better idea: get some training so that you miss less often

      • Here is a better idea, don’t be blasting high velocity rifle rds through the walls of your residence, knucklehead.
        Just keep pushing mag dumps into innocent and uninvolved bystanders, that the only strategy/training you ever push.

        • Im the knucklehead? you didn’t read did you?

          lets review: It is a bad thing for rounds to miss, yes? whether they are pistol, rifle, or shotgun loads due to all of them being rather effective in penetrating modern homes and making the inhabitants’ lives inside a living hell.

          The best way to reduce misses is to train and become proficient with your weapon yes? that means “getting training” from someone besides yourself in the 180 degree square range with overhead cover.

          Nobody is advocating “mag dumps”. where in the fvck did you get “mag dumps” out of what I said?

          You use the anti-gun buzzword “high velocity rounds”, which shotguns and pistols are no better at when it comes to over-penetration than 5.56. This is even more obvious when newer generations of 5.56 defensive ammunition are fired through a SBR.

          So start paying a little better attention to to detail before responding back to me. The need for me to conduct the most elementary lectures about reading comprehension gets fvcking sickening after a while

        • “lectures about reading comprehension gets fvcking sickening after a while” Here is a hint, stop pushing mag dumps as the only legitimate tactic for all situations, knucklehead. Now you add to that stupidity by jumping on the “high powered rifle is the only weapon for home defense” band wagon. Hope some of your neighbors survive to sue the h*ll out of you after you pull that ignorant sh*t.

        • You better read this very carefully cocksucker, because im only going to say it once more:

          Nowhere have I suggested mag dumps. Nowhere. So pull your pathetic excuse for a cranium out of your big dark cavity.

          Since you seem to know everything: how many rounds does it take for you to stop somebody? how many is “reasonable” for self defense? Lets see some examples or STFU.

          “Now you add to that stupidity by jumping on the “high powered rifle is the only weapon for home defense” band wagon. ”

          You. Are. A. FVCKING MORON

          There you go again…using anti-gun buzzwords.

          For starters, my 270 deer hunting rifle is more powerful than any AR15 or AK in my inventory. You want to see “high powered” defense? you should see my M1 garands. The point is, SBRs in 5.56 are not “high powered”. But do pray tell “Expert”, WTF exactly is a “high powered defense rifle”?

          If you have bothered to pay attention here or any other site that reports self defense situations, you would already know that handgun cartridges and shotgun rounds penetrate just as much as 5.56 does in indoor environments or urban areas. For christ’s sake, just go to box o’ truth’s page about 5.56. “high powered’ for defense it is not

          “Hope some of your neighbors survive to sue the h*ll out of you after you pull that ignorant sh*t.”

          What ignorant shit?

          and you do realize that 00 buck or 9mm or 45 ACP can over penetrate and make my neighbor’s life a living hell right? oh but you would know this if you actually knew how 5.56 behaved when penetrating buildings versus other calibers, which has been covered ad nauseum on this site and others.

          So go smoke the shit out of yourself until you throwup. Maybe youll start paying some fvcking attention to what im posting. If you pulled that “lack of attention to detail” bulls hit on me in my platoon, I would have stomped a mudhole in your ass a long time ago.

  24. The only thing I would add is that police use SWAT when they expect armed resistance. Many departments use SWAT for serving warrants on suspects that are assumed to be armed and “high risk”. SWAT isn’t just for bank robbers with hostages. SWAT is for when the police expect armed resistance. p.s. Most departments just use standard lenght AR-15s.

    Police have handguns for primarly self-defense. The main reason a police officer would be using a handgun against a criminal is because he didn’t expect a criminal shooting at him, and it is what he/she can carry all the time and use on short notice. If they expect shooting they grab their rifles. or shotguns.

    you wouldn’t bring a knife to a gun fight, so why would you bring a pistol to a gun fight if you had the choice of a rifle.

    The main reason I see for a pistol, is the rifle is usually in the gun cabinet. The pistol is on the nightstand where I left it when I took off my pants. A usual home invasion happens to quickly to get to the gun cabinet.

    The only drawback is over penetration. your kids are in the bedroom on the other side of the wall. Someone elses kids are next door. But you can use that as well to your advantage. some thug/thief sees you with your gun and pops off a couple of rounds at you sideways/gangsta-style which hits the drywall to your right then tries to duck behind the sofa (momma’s getting herself that new couch, and new carpet)

  25. Short barreled shotguns and rifles are certainly an excellent choice for people to defend themselves in close-quarters environments. There are other firearms which are excellent choices as well. The main point is that government has no legitimate authority to dictate those choices to the good people of our nation.

    It is time to repeal the regulation of short barreled rifles and shotguns.

  26. I think a SBR 9 mm AR would be the best of both worlds. Especially with a sound suppressor. Mine is is pistol form right with a sig brace right now. Trying to decide if I want to spend the money on engraving and a tax stamp for SBR.

  27. JOIN the NFAFA. now .

    muzzle blast reducing hearing protection would be a great advantage in protecting gun rights.
    people who don’t care onwe way or another about guns are frightened gunshots.

    one of the bigest drivers of local “no discharge ” ordanances is the fear factor from neighbors hearing gunshots. They then go to the next township council meeting and complain.

  28. I would argue that the police should be limited to fewer rounds and then point to cases where they fired to many Amadou Diallo comes to mind.

  29. The only good home defense weapon is one that shoots projectiles at less than 1,000 fps. This eliminates most if not all rifles short or long. A slow large bullet is best so I’d say a .45 handgun or rifle or a sbs up to 18″ in .410-12 gauge. Rifles are a ridiculous home defense option if one cares at all about collateral damage.

  30. I’m surprised to see that no one has brought up U.S. v. Miller (1939), in which the federal government successfully argued, in the face of no opposition (since at the time if you ran out of money, you were not provided legal counsel to act in your defense), that the NFA of 1934 was perfectly constitutional in restricting and regulating short barreled rifles and shotguns.

    Why, you may ask? In short, because the second amendment was written in such a way as to guarantee citizens access to MILITARY PATTERN WEAPONS ONLY. No, I swear I am not making this up. This was the prosecution’s position, which the majority opionion of the U.S. Supreme Court agreed with. Since no military arsenal in the world possessed a short barreled shotgun (Master key, M26 MASS, Serbu super shorty) or a short barreled rifle (M4 carbine, various even shorter AR platform rifles), then the government was free to restrict such arms from the public and require registration, excessive taxes, etc.

    Since such weapons are now starting to become predominant in military arsenals, doesn’t that require modification of the regulations?

    • You are missing the part where Miller established that the arms available to “the militia” (which is the unorganized and organized militias) are to be conducive to militia duties. Which is AR15s now.

    • My understanding is that the military had used SBS before, but the .gov attorneys lied to the court but there was no one to point it out.

      • basically yes. The term “trench shotgun” was created in WW1, where shotguns were used in close quarters combat, and that preceded miller. Even dating back to the civil war, such muzzle loaded variants of weapons were used.

  31. SBR’s are VERY limited use weapons, 0-15 yards and in close quarters. For everything else they pretty much suck.

    I have friends that have them and that are stupid loud even outdoors with ear pro on. The flash is also stupid beyond all get out. A 11inch AR15 has maybe and effective range of 25 yards? After that the bullet won’t frag or tumble, making it a very loud and very flashy .22 rifle.

    If you got the cash to burn, why not. If you are looking to get an AR for all around use, stick to a 16inch it still has enough barrel to make it at least a 150yard gun.

    • You realize modern 5.56 doesn’t need to be flying 3000fps to have effective terminal ballistics. Saying it is only effective at 25 yards is asinine. I have personally experienced witnessed a first round hit/kill at 600 yards from a MK18Mod1. Unless I plan to do most of my fighting past 400yards I carry a shorty.

  32. I have an idea: in light of all of the discussion on the ins and outs of the topic, I think most have lost track of the original problem: massive “government” intrusion upon our RIGHTS. So here is my proposal:

    In light of our heritage, which the Founders enforce by MASSIVE CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE, why not just IGNORE UNCONSTITUTIONAL “LAWS” AND PROCLAIM OUR RIGHTS ONCE AGAIN?

    What are “they” going to do, imprison us ALL? I’m sure there are many, many American men and women that possess the knowledge, skill, tools, and motivation to build our own SBRs, SBS’s, suppressors, and private F/A weapons. C’mon, WE’RE AMERICANS! We do things because we CAN, and we want to! After all, we got our start by kicking a tyrannical regime off the continent!

  33. Thank you seans for addressing this, as it is quite obvious here has real world experience and who doesn’t when it comes to these matters. I see a lot of opinions thrown around, but no facts.

    First and foremost, SBRs are effective past 300 meters. End of story. With modern ammunition and optics, they are capable of point target effectiveness within ranges that their longer carbine and rifle brethren are. So this notion that SBRs are bullet hoses or submachine guns is completely WRONG. As a matter of fact, on the account of how terrible many gun people shoot from my experience, the SBR AR or AK will out shoot the shooter in many circumstances.

    Second, I see the use of “high velocity rounds in your home! omg!”. Well jesus christ, WTF do you think pistol and shotgun rounds are going to do in a home and your neighbor’s home if you miss? largely the same thing 5.56 from a SBR will do and TTAG has even covered overpenetration of different calibers multiple times. It has been beat to death, yet some still fear the myth of rifle/carbine overpenetration. At worst, such military calibers are no worse than civilian ones.

    Last but not least, 5.56 doesn’t need 3000 fps velocity to be effective with modern defensive ammunition. End of story. I mean, its like some of you believe that M855 green tip is the only ammunition available for the 5.56 caliber when multitudes of extremely effective civilian defensive ammunition has been on the market for decades. Is TSX 5.56 going to care about sub-3000 fps velocity from an AR? probably not. Just saying…

    AR15s are the most effective weapon for home defense. SBR AR15s are even more so.

    Here’s a bonus: the next person that brings up “mag dumps” or anything of the sort is going to get smoked until they black out.

      • How do you get “mag dump” out of these posts? Besides demonstrating you have no clue about this topic, you also engage in uncalled for name calling. Here is a concept, educate yourself on this subject and get off of the juvenile name calling and folks might actually take you serious.

        • If you are going to defend LC perhaps you should keep up with all his “wisdom”. Mm’kay.

        • And please don’t tell me you are one of these people pushing high power, high cap mag rifles as the best option for home defense. Or are you in the “12ga has more penetration than a 5.56 rd” camp?

        • I’m pushing nothing, just pointing out that you are engaged in nothing more than hyperbole and you clearly do not know what your talking. Feel free to limit yourself as you see fit. The fact that you denigrate others while ignoring proven ballistic data only highlights how ignorant and narrow minded you are on this subject.

          Like I said, feel free to limit yourself in a defensive situation. For myself, I’ll stick with the proven maxim that the “enemy get a vote” and I prefer having as much of an advantage in a fight whenever possible. Especially in my own home.

          Goodnight.

        • Because he’s a two bit, inbred, mucous membrane bag of filth that slithered out of his mother’s polluted hole that grew up into a 3IQ dimwit completely incapable of middle school-level reading comprehension.

          Its best if he just fills a 5 gallon bucket up with bleach, sticks his head inside, and starts inhaling with much frequency.

          Seriously. Only a fvcking retard or vehement anti-gunner would get conclude that using a SBR AR for home defense means that you must be “using magazine dump techniques to defend your home!”

          2hotel, go fvck right off. you are contributing absolutely nothing useful here. “My wisdom” exceeds yours in great multitudes on my worst fvcking day, with an absolute hell of a hangover and a case of the flu. But it shows here.

        • You are the one who screeched, at length and repeatedly, that emptying the weapon is the only real shooting technique to ever be used. What I especially like is how you are now trying to pretend you did not push that crap. You are the one that defended cops mag dumping, and now you screech something different. You are so precious. Enjoy f*cking yourself.

        • I am not limited at all, I just don’t go blasting high power rifle rds into my neighbors homes while stopping a criminal in mine. Or is limiting collateral damage a bad thing now? I know! Lets us ask Instructor Zero! He has all the latest answers.

        • “You are the one who screeched, at length and repeatedly, that emptying the weapon is the only real shooting technique to ever be used.”

          And where did I say this? provide proof and reference where I said it, or shut the fvck up.

          You must have missed by plethora of posts in other articles explaining shot placement and non-specific response, but i guess you shouldn’t worry your pretty little head over that because apparently those two terms mean “magazine dump”/rolls eyes/ (you are a real special case aren’t you?)

          But you can always depend on a single bullet stopping a bad guy immediately, yes? because apparently with your magical powers of insight, you can determine how many bullets are adequate for self defense…

          “What I especially like is how you are now trying to pretend you did not push that crap.”

          What I especially like is how every time I ask you where I endorsed “magazine dumps” as credible self defense advice, you remain strangely silent. So I ask again? where did i push for magazine dumps?

          “You are the one that defended cops mag dumping, and now you screech something different.”

          Again, show me where I specifically defended magazine dumps and cops magazine dumping into people, or shut the fvck up.

          “You are so precious. Enjoy f*cking yourself.”

          erm…okay? (LOL)

          “I am not limited at all, I just don’t go blasting high power rifle rds into my neighbors homes while stopping a criminal in mine.”

          Well gee whiz einstein, none of us see that as a viable strategy either.

          and again, stop using anti-gun bulls hit terms like “high powered”. Just stop. You are embarrassing yourself.

          Is it even remotely possible in your own mind that one can have a AR15 and not plant hundreds of bullets everywhere? is it possible that maybe gun owners are more sensible than that and will only place well aimed shots into the bad guy? Maybe the bad guy is stopped by one bullet, will the owner of the AR15 that just defended his home all of a sudden light up the entire neighborhood?

          Your astounding lack of logic hurts my brain.

          “Or is limiting collateral damage a bad thing now?”

          Limiting collateral damage is undoubtedly not a bad thing since it can result in a very costly civil suit and imprisonment for manslaughter in many cases. Unlike government officials and many police officers, civilians are held accountable for the bullets they put downrange and the cost of a stray round is extremely expensive in multiple ways. This is probably why owners of AR15s aren’t inclined to conduct grazing fires once they have an intruder enter their home…just saying.

  34. 2hotel9, you are clearly a anti-gun/anti-2A plant. Everytime you post you use the same worn out and disproven “arguments” sprinkled with the normal hyperbole and straw man arguments that the Bloomberg types go out of their way to use.

    No one has advocated “mag dumps,” or “blasting high power rifle rounds” randomly into a neighbors house. BTW, you do realize that the 5.56/.223 originally was categorized as an intermediate rifle cartridge that falls between true high power rifle cartridges such as 7.62X63 (that’s 30-06 to you Einstein) and 8X57 and the pistol cartridges (45ACP and 9mm Para) that were used in SMG’s.

    Take some time to research ballistic data and you will find that pistol cartridges often actually penetrate further than the “high power” rifle rounds you have such a problem with.

    In the end, use what you want but it’s pretty clear you have no idea what you are talking about.

    Have a nice day

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