Border Patrol Agent Fires at Armed Militia Member

The Border Patrol has for decades adopted strict policies about the firing their weapons. In the most famous recent case, Border patrolman Brian Terry was killed in a firefight in which the patrolman used less lethal “bean bag” rounds.    Border patrolmen I have talked to have always said that the mere presence of a weapon isn’t enough to justify shooting at someone. This makes sense, because most people in the United States can legally possess weapons, and because the law is clear on what is required to justify the use of deadly force. And in border areas, where there is often rampant criminality, many people consider it foolhardy not to be armed . . .

The Arizona Supreme Court recently reiterated this maxim, when they ruled that the mere presence of a weapon is insufficient to allow a person to be detained.

From ap.org:

Border Patrol spokesman Omar Zamora said agents had been chasing a group of immigrants east of Brownsville Friday afternoon when an agent saw a man holding a gun near the Rio Grande. The agent fired four shots, but did not hit the man….

The man, whose name has not been released, was wearing camouflage and carrying a long arm that was either a rifle or shotgun, Lucio said. The agent had lost the group of immigrants when he turned around and saw the man holding the weapon.

An unknown number of militia members have come to the Texas border following a surge in illegal immigration this summer.

The totality of the circumstances must be taken into account. In this case, the patrolman was pursuing a group of illegal aliens when he saw the armed citizen. However, the citizen never made any threatening moves, and never pointed his long gun in the direction of the patrolman. Perhaps the shots were meant as a “warning,” but it’s counter to Border Patrol policy and a good way to instigate a gun fight.

The citizen in this case immediately dropped his weapon. He very likely had seen the patrolman coming in his direction and knew that the person firing at him was a member of the Border Patrol.

I suspect that the Border Patrol agent will be in a lot of trouble for this breach of protocol. He is very lucky that he did not hit the armed citizen, who was on private property, who had permission to be there, and who was not reported as doing anything illegal.

©2014 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice is included.
Gun Watch

comments

  1. avatar the ruester says:

    This is kind of funny to say, but if he had been dressed in shorts and flip flops (like the infamous chipotle ninjas) it might have been easier for the law man to assess him as a non threat. It is possible that this man is responsible for the illegals escape, simply for having worn camouflage! 🙂

    1. avatar Dirk Diggler says:

      Maybe it was Rev Run himself (aka Paul McCain) who was down in Texas to preach to the illegals and show the rest of us how to open carry??

      1. avatar Danny Griffin says:

        More like he would shoot at them for OCing.

  2. avatar Pascal says:

    While this situation is unique to the border, things are going to get ugly.

    The Sunday morning talking heads where all cheering “ISIS is coming”, I heard a few chant “see something, say something” Someone is going to get shot some place over a bogeyman under the bed that does not exist.

    1. avatar tdiinva says:

      It;s a bogeyman until it isn’t and ISIS is not the JV as the President proclaimed. I predict that you will one of strongest critics if ISIS does pull something off in September. I can hear you now. “Stupid government agents could not find the bad guys. We don’t need them.” Either that or you will proclaim it was a false flag operation to declare martial law.

      I no longer have the access to intelligence that I had two years ago but I find the publicly sourced intelligence compelling enough not to discount the possibility. I would recommend that people not patronize public spaces during peak hours for the next month or so. If I were I ISIS I would be planning lone wolf attacks instead of a big bomb. That is why I am glad I bought a 10mm. I want to be carry the biggest, baddest concealable handgun I can right now. I think the most likely time for an attack would be the weekend after 9-11 when everybody has let their guard down as another 9-11 anniversary passes.

      1. avatar B says:

        That would be like celebrating Festivus. Sure it may be smarter, but it makes you feel like a loser that you didn’t party with everyone else. These guys want their Christmas. They aren’t going to wait when they’ve been on a roll making the Caliphate.

      2. avatar .38 wheelgun says:

        heaven help you if you ever bother to research who initially sponsored and armed ISIS in the first place – your head would explode. (Hint, it involves the state dept. and US “allies” Qatar and Saudi Arabia).

        I will say I do feel a lot safer knowing you and your trusty 10mm are on the case there though Mr. Jack Bauer.

        1. avatar DJ says:

          Is that where the recovered weapons from Libya went?

          Aren’t the Iranians supplying them, too?

        2. avatar tdiinva says:

          ISIS developed out of Islamic radicalism and was sponsored by Turkey and Qutar. Our fearless leader is under the spell of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Erdogan, (pronounced Erowan) under third world radical that reminds him of his con man father. So yes I am very aware of why ISIS has gotten out of control.

        3. avatar Jus Bill says:

          tdi, your OSINT is only as good as the source’s axe being ground. Remember that. Just like your former COMINT.

          You remember the INTEL buildup to OIF/OEF? Those WMDs and CHEM weapons are still missing…

        4. avatar .38 wheelgun says:

          “Aren’t the Iranians supplying them, too?” Actually, in kind of an odd twist of fate, the Iranians are with us against ISIS. Maybe not so much “with us” as they are “against ISIS” though. They flew some bombing runs in Iraq a few weeks ago to try to break up some ISIS convoys while our government was still figuring out how best to leverage the crisis in order to grab more power…err, I mean, discussing the most rational course of action as they are wont to do. You can probably find some stuff on the “mystery planes” that did airstrikes in Iraq a few weeks ago. Everyone wanted to say it was Israel which would have been a logical assumption but it was actually the Persians.

        5. avatar .38 wheelgun says:

          “ISIS developed out of Islamic radicalism and was sponsored by Turkey and Qutar.”

          They didn’t just materialize out of the thin ether of “Islamic Radicalism” – they splintered off from the Syrian Al Nusra rebels that people like McCain, Kerry and Clinton wanted to arm and fly airstrikes for just a year ago. Interesting that someone with access to the intelligence community would gloss right over this part.

          Lets not forget who sells weapons to Turkey / Qatar / S. Arabia.

      3. avatar karlb says:

        I do not remember the president calling ISIS junior varsity. The one thing I would think he would be doing is working to make sure there is not a terrorist attack on US soil during his last two years in office. I imagine that he wants to be able to say, years from now, “Sure, my presidency sucked, but there were no terror attacks on my watch.”

        1. avatar esitue says:

          Sooo the Boston Bombing was a JV victory party that got out of hand?

        2. avatar Roscoe says:

          Great point, esitue.

        3. avatar Yellow Devil says:

          “In the 2012 campaign, Obama spoke not only of killing Osama bin Laden; he also said that Al Qaeda had been “decimated.” I pointed out that the flag of Al Qaeda is now flying in Falluja, in Iraq, and among various rebel factions in Syria; Al Qaeda has asserted a presence in parts of Africa, too.

          “The analogy we use around here sometimes, and I think is accurate, is if a jayvee team puts on Lakers uniforms that doesn’t make them Kobe Bryant,” Obama said.”

          The president already failed the “no terror attack on my watch” mantra. That unless you ignore the first Fort Hood Shooting, The failed SUV car-bombing of Time Square, the Boston Marathon attack and a myraid of other Terrorist attacks that have been performed for in the name of religion of “peace”.

      4. avatar Indiana Tom says:

        My own real attitude towards Islamic terror groups is that they can organize about anywhere there are failed Islamic States. With the border patrol being neutered and the TSA incompetent, the terrorists probably would be successful in entering the USA as the illegal aliens have been.. As we have found out through the Boston and Oklahoma City Bombers that making weapons with some destructive capabilities is not too difficult. Of course you could always use airplanes as well. As far as government agencies stopping the terrorists, I put little stock in that as the Obozo Administration considers Tea Party Members a larger threat than ISIS or the Red Army.

  3. avatar Danny Griffin says:

    If the BP had fired at illegal immigrants he’d probably be in trouble. A.citizen militia member? Not so much.

    1. avatar Mecha-Ben says:

      Sadly, +1

    2. avatar Jim Barrett says:

      The real danger would have been if the militia member had fired back. I’m not sure how much practice Border Patrol agents get, but if they are anything like typical police departments, the militia member might have been a better shot. If it becomes policy for agents to open fire whenever the hell they feel like it, this is going to get ugly. More and more militia members are patrolling the border every week and they’ve already shown they don’t have any problems with pointing guns at identifiable law enforcement officers (Bundy Ranch). All it’s going to take is a militia member getting shot and possibly killed and the border area is going to get even more dangerous for everyone.

  4. avatar LordGopu says:

    So this guy had nothing to do with the illegals and wasn’t dressed like them or anything and the border guard just shot at him for nothing? Sounds like someone needs firing, lawsuit and jail time.

    1. avatar Mark N. says:

      Illegals, no, but coyotes maybe. Coyotes are often armed and will engage BP is pressed. I’ve seen plenty of pics of drug smugglers kitted up.

    2. avatar Roscoe says:

      Lotta Sunday morning quarterbacks on this thread – seems to be a favorite blood sport for all the ‘in the know’ keyboard kommandos, no doubt typing with 20/20 insight and first hand experience from wearing the Agent’s boots at that time and place.

      The internet is you’re friend, but there are a lot of nuances google and other online sources simply cannot convey, let alone the accurate facts.

      1. avatar LordGopu says:

        Pray how we’re supposed to discuss information that wasn’t provided in the article?

        And don’t feed me that kind of crap. When you live in a place where guns are common you don’t just start shooting at people cuz they have a gun. Especially if that gun isn’t even in their hands.

        At worst he was abusing authority, at best he was jumpy, but either way he fucked up badly.

        1. This all started with 3 patriots patrolling private property on a road that parallels the river. A border patrol officer pulled up and warned them that a group of illegals had crossed nearby and that they should leave the area. He was a single agent and was the blocking force for several agents trying to drive the illegals in his direction. The 3 patriots offered to help, and the agent agreed. So they set up between the river and the road behind the agents position to protect his back. 1 by the river, 1 by the road, and 1 in between. The patriot nearest the river saw an illegal emerge near the water yelling for others, he was described as early twenties with lots of tattoos. As he was observing this young illegal, he heard shots fired near the road. He immediately withdrew and headed for the road where he knew one of the others in his group was sitting next to the road. Upon exiting the tree line he saw a different agent, the one who had fired the shots, and his fellow patriots in a discussion. they put their guns on the mule they had been using as part of the patrol. Pretty soon the BP supervisor arrived, then the DEA and DHS were all on the scene. The patriots guns were checked and cleared, but the border patrol seized them as part of the investigation, even though the only shots fired were from the BP agent.

  5. avatar tfunk says:

    Yet another argument as to why only the police and govt should have guns…then they wouldn’t shoot at us lowly citizens! 😉

    1. avatar Steve Day says:

      I assume you meant “shouldn’t” ?

  6. avatar lizzrd says:

    Well, as in all these cases, it’s difficult to make an informed decision about the incident without all the facts being in. We should withhold judgement until we hear both sides of the story.

    1. avatar Danny Griffin says:

      We should withhold judgement until we hear both sides of the story.

      What scenario would make the BP agent shooting at the citizen militia member okay?

      1. avatar B says:

        Dirty militia member was asking for it, wearing that sexy camo and seductive operator rifle. If he didn’t want to be fired at, why was he wearing all that stuff?

        Hmm, need a catchy term for that. Op-slut-shaming? Need a campaign too: Just because I’m wearing this doesn’t mean I want it.

        1. avatar Dirk Diggler says:

          would love to shannon watts wearing camo

        2. avatar Roscoe says:

          The guy apparently wasn’t showing enough hairy skin to convey his true intentions to the Agent.

      2. avatar Hannibal says:

        What scenario would make shooting an unarmed surrendering man in Ferguson okay?

        The one that you don’t know about or that counteracts the narrative you’ve been reading.

        It may be that this guy was amped up over his chase and engaged the wrong target with no justification. Or maybe there was. Maybe the citizen briefly aimed his gun at the fleeing suspects or even the officer and we just haven’t heard about it. You’d think that maybe things like the Brown shooting would teach people that neither they nor the media (nor even the police mouthpieces) know all the facts immediately, but it never does..

        1. avatar JR_in_NC says:

          “Maybe the citizen briefly aimed his gun at the fleeing suspects or even the officer and we just haven’t heard about it.”

          Then it’s more than we just haven’t heard about it; that would mean someone is actively lying.

          From the article:

          “However, the citizen never made any threatening moves, and never pointed his long gun in the direction of the patrolman.”

        2. avatar Roscoe says:

          And JR, we all know how the media and reporters only report the facts on every event, never rumor, and always get it right the first time without letting their personal biases influence their news stories.

      3. avatar lizzrd says:

        Oh, I don’t know…How about the “militia” member aiming his weapon at the officer – or anyone else for that matter.

        1. avatar Danny Griffin says:

          Oh, I don’t know…How about the “militia” member aiming his weapon at the officer – or anyone else for that matter.

          The BP admitted the citizen did no such thing. Try again.

        2. avatar Roscoe says:

          IF that is accurate and the Agent confirms it, then the Agent over reacted. What is key is the Agents perceptions, and his experience, in that treacherous border environment.

    2. avatar neiowa says:

      Should we “withhold judgement” until Holder is thrown out or until he is in jail?

    3. avatar pwrserge says:

      I would have returned fire… Unlike the BP thug, I would have hit what I aimed at.

      1. avatar Mark N. says:

        Good luck making out a self-defense claim in that scenario. You’ll need it.

        1. avatar Drew says:

          Assuming the events un folded exactly like described here with the exception of return fire a self defense claim would be incontestable. If someone fires at you without cause returning fire to end the threat is legal and reasonable.

        2. avatar Roscoe says:

          @ Drew
          Laugh!

          In an open border enforcement environment at a uniformed PA (hint: Federal Officer) engaged in a known enforcement operation.
          Laugh! Laugh!

          Pack a toothbrush.

      2. avatar lizzrd says:

        No, just like this “militia” guy, you would probably have thrown down your AR and hit the ground – wetting your pants in the process.

        1. avatar Steve Day says:

          Is that Rev. McCain playing with ninja-sock-puppets again?

        2. avatar Drew says:

          Really? You just have to belittle the man? He knew the shooter was an officer and certainly didn’t want to take a life due to a misunderstanding. Honestly disarming in the face of gun fire to spare an innocent life is a damn brave thing to do.

        3. avatar Chip Bennett says:

          More projection – another arrow straight out of the liberals’ argumentation logical fallacy quiver (with an ad hominem combination FTW!).

        4. In case you are wondering, the “Patriot” never put down hi firearm, he maintains strict discipline and kept it pointed at the ground directly in front of him. Also, He was carrying a AK-47 pistol grip rifle, not a AR. Everyone, including the border patrolman who fired the shots, said the “patriot” acted very professionally in the way he maintained his gun discipline. Each of the 3 men placed their firearms on the Mule, (motorized), and 2 of the 3 put their exposed handguns in the glove compartment of the mule, also. One of them had a concealed handgun, which remained concealed and was not confiscated. The authorities also removed a handi cam from the Mule which had been recording during the incident. They were told they could retrieve their guns after September 1st. As far as I have heard, all the firearms were returned, but the Patriots couldn’t mention anything besides that.

  7. avatar juliesa says:

    It could have been fog of war and all that, but this is extremely alarming to those of who now only traverse our ranches while armed, and have CBP passing through all the time. There are sensors on our ranch, and the feds have stopped and questioned us, and guests who’ve set off the sensors while hunting, but they never threatened any of us. OTOH, they’ve caused other hassles, to the point that some landowners no longer let CBP on their land. They just call the sheriff instead when they see illegals. The sheriff’s deputies are more knowledgable and responsible than the feds in our particular area.

    I know CBP has a hard job, and I appreciate that they’re risking their lives, but some improvements are needed. The bosses at the very top are making things harder for the agents too.

    1. avatar Danny Griffin says:

      they’ve caused other hassles, to the point that some landowners no longer let CBP on their land.

      What kind of problems have the BP caused ranchers and landowners?

      1. avatar juliesa says:

        Leaving gates open, pooping (I guess they can’t help that), sneaking up on ranch wives in unmarked vehicles–nuisance stuff. I don’t think they meant to scare my cousin’s wife in that unmarked truck, but they did.

        The smugglers are sneaking around in fake utility trucks anyway, so you really can’t be sure who’s in what vehicles you see on your own property. And now we have illegals from Ukraine coming up to the house to ask to use the phone. Strange times, and just getting stranger.

        1. avatar Danny Griffin says:

          illegals from Ukraine coming up to the house to ask to use the phone.

          😮

        2. avatar The Brotherhood of Steel says:

          Illegals from Ukraine? hmm, wonder if that’s spetznatz..

        3. avatar Roscoe says:

          Ukrainian separatists getting lost on their way back home to Russia.

    2. avatar Roscoe says:

      “The bosses at the very top are making things hard for the agents too.”

      Bingo, on the money. This is the primary reason the illegal alien ‘tonk’ over-run condition has existed and will continue to exist. It’s been that way for many decades.

      Border enforcement has been a political football and bargaining chip forever, with competing interests that sometimes converge depending on the economy, political pandering, and long-range political strategizing. This all begins with opportunistic yet out of touch incompetent Administration officials, political appointees, and legislators primarily interested in political advantage, leverage, and formost, their own careers.

      The U.S. Border Patrol has ALWAYS been the under supported, WAY underfunded stepchild of first the DOJ, and now DHS. The agents and supervisors working the line and checkpoints, Station APAICs, PAICs, are all at the mercy of Sector level Chiefs, Deputy and Assistant Chiefs trying to do their jobs yet cover their own asses in an often politically charged environment. Mostly these are hard working law enforcement field officers (PAs) trying to do their best in an often harsh, always dangerous and frequently ambivalent usually hostile environment. And yes, agents will if possible react with overwhelming force and force of law whenever the circumstances appear to warrant. Isolation and treacherous conditions completely warrant such a strategy.

      Any seasoned PA could provide a rational reasoned solution to securing ‘la frontera’. Most comprehensive solutions are out of reach due to lack of political commitment and funding. This problem will continue unresolved because of the politics, even if there is a serious attack that originates from a surreptitious border crossing by terrorist elements.

      Any PA or ex PA reading this knows I speak from first hand experience.

  8. avatar Dickie J says:

    Good thing this border patrol agent apparently took his marksmanship training from the NYPD.

    1. avatar Jake says:

      I expected a Stormtrooper joke.

    2. avatar Roscoe says:

      It would be a mistake to make that assumption, Dickie.

  9. avatar Last Marine OUT ! says:

    My congressman Bill Posey sent out a letter of a trip to the border he took pictures it is a joke holes in the fence , no fence for many miles , well worn trails . We need to do lots more, even the Mexico army comes over, and drugs gangs kill everyone they see… The ranchers and locals get a lot of crime …and ISIS and others cross very easy…. I would be trigger happy too……..don’t blame B.P. agents it’s a job that needs more everything….

    1. avatar juliesa says:

      Yes, plus the Audubon preserve where this occurred has a border fence–but the preserve is on the Mexican side of the fence, so the fence does them no good. No wonder they were asking for help from these volunteers.

    2. avatar Roscoe says:

      @ Last Marine
      Despite the grandiose claims of success from members of the current Administration, little has changed over the years; especially the lip service from politicians.

  10. avatar tdiinva says:

    This is a command and control issue. The problem is that neither the militia guys and the government guys have communications so they cannot coordinate and deconflict their activities. I am surprised that worse hasn’t happened by now. Just remember cartel guys also dress in camo. The solution is for the militia guys to tell the BP guys where and when they will be about and perhaps wear something distinctive so they can be readily identified as non hostile. Even in the early days of the Republic the militia operated under government authority. They were not a private army. If you do not understand any of this then that is a sure indicator that you are a keyboard commando.

    1. avatar CarlosT says:

      I agree with everything you said, but what value does your last sentence bring to the discussion? I find myself in an odd position with a lot of your comments, nodding along with your very good points for a lot of it, then shaking my head at a pointless jab. I think the latter distracts from the former, which is a shame.

      1. avatar tdiinva says:

        Carlos:

        I understand your bewilderment but I threw it out their because of the kinds “what the cops did wrong” posts that I saw during the Ferguson riots. It was the kind of second guessing that the antis make when a citizen is forced to make the same kind of decision. I want to impress on people that the cops aren’t always wrong and Ferguson was one of those times.

        1. avatar .38 wheelgun says:

          *Takes swipes at random people for being “Keyboard commandos” in an unrelated thread*
          *Engages in fantasy thinking where he stops ISIS with a 10mm handgun*
          comedy kind of writes itself.

        2. avatar tdiinva says:

          I will carry the 10mm for the same reason I carried a rifle in my car during the DC sniper incident. It makes me feel better. {By the way, I shared an office with a woman named Linda Franklin, you might want to look that name up] The most likely scenario for ISIS terrorism is a suicide vest. A gun will do me nor anybody else any good. However, there is a possibility that a lone wolf, like Major Hassan, will use a gun because he will not have access to a the materials to make a the vest. For those of us who live a high threat area like the DC metro area the ISIS gunman scenario is far more likely than the usual scenarios trotted out to justify ones purchase of a AR or AK .

          There are hundreds of Europeans and Americans (mostly Europeans) who are fighting with ISIS. They have the appropriate European or American travel documents to return to the US through Europe. I am more concerned about this threat than a VBIED coming out of Mexico. One of the hotbeds of such jihadist recruitment and activity is the little Mogadishu neighborhood in Minneapolis. I suspect the cartels don’t like the idea of ISIS screwing up their drug and human trafficking business and they will either deal with ISIS themselves or tip US officials if ISIS tries to cross the border with a bomb. I suspect that the original intelligence about the ISIS presence in Ciudad Juarez came from the cartels.

          FYI. This is a place where people get say silly things sometimes because you can. For those of us who never had this option at work to be flip or less than serious it is a great pleasure to have the ability to say dumb@$$ things and not have any consequences associated with it.

        3. avatar Danny Griffin says:

          serious it is a great pleasure to have the ability to say dumb@$$ things and not have any consequences associated with it.

          If you say dumbass things, there will be consequences. You may not care, but there will be consequences nonetheless.

        4. avatar John in Ohio says:

          Your elitist, I know better than any of you slip is showing, tdiinva.

          http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/navy-seal-copypasta

        5. avatar tdiinva says:

          @JohninOhio:

          That all you got?

        6. avatar .38 wheelgun says:

          “That all you got?”

          I don’t know – I thought it was pretty appropriate. Your posts reek of “HEY EVERYONE I HAVE A 12 FOOT LONG DICK LOOK AT ME” – Everyone is a bad ass on the internet. Hell I’m a 9th generation ninja with telekinesis and precognition who worked for the CIA for 2 decades while also running a line of successful bagel shops in the Polynesian Islands. I’m also best friends with Bono and Bill Gates and I invented the cellphone. Honest!

        7. avatar tdiinva says:

          @38:

          Is John of Ohio your other personality?

          It may come as a surprise to you that the only people who have some sort of credibility on internet forums are those who publish by name and are traceable. All others are just pudknockers. Now, some of us pudknockers actually know a bit more than others based on experience but that is largely irrelevant since we (that means all of us who post anonymously) won’t provide the personal information required for vetting. So I know what I know and you can think what you want. You can think what you want about my dick size and I really don’t care.

          And John is no less an elitist than I. The only difference is that his elite is composed of neo-Nazis, Klansmen, black nationalists and other assorted sociopaths but he considers them the elite just the same.

        8. avatar tdiinva says:

          Danny:

          Tell me who hasn’t said a dumb@$$ thing or two on an internet forum? You perhaps? The difference between me and some others is that I recognize that I say dumb@$$ things from time to time. The truly earnest 100% of the time internet denizen is generally the easiest to punk and manipulate. That never is my initial intention but when someone gets all out of joint about what amounts to an opinion (and you know what they say about opinions) I have no problem doing it.

        9. avatar John in Ohio says:

          And John is no less an elitist than I. The only difference is that his elite is composed of neo-Nazis, Klansmen, black nationalists and other assorted sociopaths but he considers them the elite just the same.

          ROTFLMAO! Even on his worst day posting AT me, Reverend Grumpy didn’t go so far afield. None of those groups would ever accept me as a member due to my genetic and ethnic background as well as my staunchly held beliefs. I believe that all people are created equal. They are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights and among those rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

          And, no, I post under no other name than this one on TTAG.

        10. avatar Danny Griffin says:

          tdiinva,

          the easiest to punk and manipulate.

          You aren’t manipulating anyone, they are simply recognizing you for who you are. But as I said, you may not care.

    2. avatar Roscoe says:

      Other than for shock value, the cartels are and will continue to be the biggest threat.

      1. avatar Last Marine OUT ! says:

        And keep in mind the drug gangs NOW have FULL MILITARY gear , bullet poof vest, machine guns , camo , and employ combat vets from many nations even special force vets etc …they shoot first and ask no questions …….So the BORDER is now a live WAR ZONE… and if some dumb a– wants to play G.I. Joe he better watch out for both sides….Even the National Guard is NOT up to dealing with what is going on ….for my self in a hot area , I shot first , and asked no questions and saved the body bags for the rule keepers … WAR IS HELL, and WE are at war,,,WAKE UP AMERIKA!

  11. avatar Scrubula says:

    There’s no such thing as warning shots in the eye of the law. Nor should there be. If you fire a gun at someone, you intend to harm them. The same way slashing a knife at someone is still assault even if you don’t hit them.

  12. avatar Hannibal says:

    Glad it didn’t turn turn into a firefight with casualties.

  13. avatar Sixpack70 says:

    Sounds like the BP agent needs to brush up on ROE. It’s not Afghanistan, oh wait you can’t do that there either.

    1. avatar Calvin says:

      No, in Afghanistan the ROE is actually enforced, being watched over by not just the chain of command but also lawyers, politicians and bureaucrats. OTOH, cops can do what they please.

      1. avatar Sixpack70 says:

        I guess my second sentence was worded poorly. In Afghanistan I know the ROE is enforced and you can’t just go shooting at randomly armed people. That was the point I failed in making. The BP agent opened fire on a person he did not identify and made no attempt to identify himself to the person with the weapon.

      2. avatar Roscoe says:

        “…cops can do what they please.”

        Yeah, right.
        Fantasize much?

        1. avatar Calvin says:

          Go for it:
          1-What’s a cop’s ROE?
          2-Who’s looking over his shoulder to make sure he keeps it?
          3-When did a cop ever get tossed in the brig or stockade for violating it?

          It’s ironic that cops want all the toys and glory of real soldiers but none of the rules or accountability.

        2. avatar Roscoe says:

          I don’t disagree that there have been way too many overly aggressive cops drunk on authority becoming abusive to anyone not in the ‘club’, and lax accountability, but you paint with an overly broad brush.

          You’d be wrong to believe when a cop is caught screwing up he gets off scott free. There is a lot of oversight and accountability in play, but since you’re dealing with humans and all the faults humans bring with them it varies widely by agency and current politics.

          I agree with you on the BDUs and excessive ‘toys’, and on too many officers overbearing judgmental nature. But to broadly assume unaccountability is a mistake.

  14. avatar Wade says:

    Anyone else catch the irony here ? We have been hearing for over a month how the *trained* law enforcement was worried about all the *common* people running around armed. Its been insinuated over and over that the common people would cause a dangerous altercation.. Man…good thing we have such professional and well trained law enforcement !

    1. avatar Roscoe says:

      When your ass is hanging out there exposed in a known dangerous enforcement situation, you don’t have the luxury of time to determine which armed guy is a good guy or bad guy. You MUST presume they are all bad, unless you KNOW otherwise. To do otherwise is to risk becoming a casualty.

      BTY, I am totally opposed to civilian disarmament and fully support open and concealed carry.

      I am also opposed to officious inter meddling in a stupid manner

  15. avatar lolinski says:

    “Chasing a group of immigrants”?

    I know we are not liked but it’s on motherf****. You started it now.

    1. avatar Chris In Texas says:

      Ok even I laughed hard at that.

      1. avatar Danny Griffin says:

        I don’t get it.

        1. avatar outwardhound says:

          “immigrants” ≠ “illegal aliens”

        2. avatar lolinski says:

          He was chasing a group of immigrants. If you do stuff like that don’t act all surprised when people get violent.

  16. avatar Adub says:

    If the militia member had been a true criminal instead of good citizen, I am sure he could have returned effective fire with a scoped rifle. Instead he dropped his weapon because he didn’t want to start a firefight.

  17. avatar Steve says:

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    OFFICIAL NONCLASSIFIED INCIDENT REPORT
    SITREP: CAMP LONESTAR
    Posted to ACR by KC on the border in TEXAS about an clash between his group and Law enforcement agncies

    30 Aug14

    SUBJECT: BP AGENT DISCHARGES FIREARM AT VOLUNTEER CONCERNED CITIZEN

    On or about Wednesday 27AUG14 at approx 18:00 Archie, a fellow teammate at Camp Lonestar, met Mr Aguliar curator of the wildlife sanctuary located on the Texas Border at a Gas Station named “Stripes”. After speaking with Archie, Mr. Agulair showed interest in having us patrol the sanctuary due to illegal alien incursions onto his property. He invited us to come speak with him.

    On 29AUG14 at approx. 14:00 We (KC, Wolf, Jesus) went to speak with Mr. Aguliar about patrolling his property. After agreeing to his terms for patrol on his property, we set out to scout the new property along the river. After we cleaned up 3 crossing spots(we remove refuse to beautify our state and to allow us to monitor new traffic) we observed a dismounted Border Patrol Agent walking down the river road. We knew from working with BP when they are dismounted they are actively looking for illegals that have crossed into US territory. I approached the Agent and asked him what was going on. The BP agent informed us that they had illegals being pushed toward our location from other BP agents. We asked if we could help him and he said yes. We heard voices coming from the river so we deployed to the river approx. 75 yards apart, which was to the rear position of the BP agents position to cover his back. Wolf took the most Northern position I assumed the middle position and Jesus was in the southern position. While I was in a covered position on the river I observed a heavily tattooed late 20’s early 30’s Hispanic male hollering and whistling up and down the river. While observing suspect I heard a series of approx. 5 gun shots ring out. My first impression was, it was the cartel flexing their might to attempt to intimidate us as they had done previously to BP. I observed suspect until he got out of my visual range. When I went back up to the top of the ridge to reposition myself to further observe the suspect, my teammate Wolf informed me a BP Captain was looking for me. I immediately proceeded to meet the Captain on the border road. I observed the BP Captain coming toward me holding the AK Pistol Jesus was carrying and Jesus following behind the Agent. When the BP Captain and I got within speaking range he informed me that one of his agents discharged his firearm at my teammate(Jesus) approx. 5 times. He stated to me his agent mistook our teammate as an illegal and saw the weapon and he opened fire without provocation or without ordering Jesus to drop his weapon. I then observed the Agent who discharged his weapon and he was visibly shaken. His skin was flushed and his color appeared to be white. After about 20 minutes the Agent was back to a normal darker skin tone. The BP Captain then asked us to move out of the “HOT” zone for our security to further discuss the incidental discharge. We agreed and moved approx. 250 yards from the site of the shooting.

    When we arrived at the new location the BP agent chose, we stopped approx. 30 yds. behind his vehicle. I disarmed and stowed my side arm in the glove box of the mule and left my rifle leaning on the gun rack mounted to the mule. Wolf left his rifle laying on the back seat of the mule and we dismounted. Wolf retained his pistol concealed under his blouse. We then approached the BP Captain and continued to discuss the incident. After approx. 15 minutes BP agents started to gather at our location to secure the scene for the ensuing investigation into the discharge of the BP agents firearm. The BP Captain asked us if he could secure our weapons since we did have illegals in the area and we were not in a position to protect the weapons from being used against us by an illegal. We consented to him securing the weapons in his vehicle. The BP Captain also took possession of my GoPro camera that was mounted to the mule.

    After approx. 45 minutes a Charge Sargent of the Cameron County sheriffs office arrived and took possession of our identification and he proceeded to run our names and backgrounds. He also ran the numbers on our weapons which all came back clear. I had to scratch the paint off of my AK pistol for the BP and deputy to obtain the serial number. He also ran the VIN of my mule which was clear. Shortly afterwards top ranking Border Patrol commanders and investigators arrived. The FBI and Homeland security investigators arrived on the scene. I was questioned by Homeland Security agent and an FBI agent about what I knew and observed. I answered all questions posed to me truly and accurately. After approx. 5 hours being detained by Federal and county officials we were told we were free to go.

    While we were waiting for our identification back we observed the Deputy Sheriff taking possession of our weapons. When I questioned why he was taking our weapons after they were cleared as not stolen and we had every legal right to possess them on the private property we had permission to be on, I was informed they were “Part of the investigation” into the discharge of a weapon by a federal agent. I again questioned why our weapons were part of an investigation that we had not committed and wrong doing. The Deputy asserted he was told to do so and I could retrieve my weapons Monday 1SEPT14 at the Sheriffs office. I was not given an inventory list of the weapons being held nor for my GoPro camera they refused to give back due to their investigation. I was just told to go to the Sheriffs office next week. The SSG with the Cameron County sheriffs office returned our identification and told us we were free to go. Again I asked about my weapons and camera and again I was refused access to my lawful property. We mounted up on the mule and departed to our base camp.

    The statement reported by AP is completely false. We never identified ourselves as “Militia” as a matter of fact we all stated we are NOT Militia just Concerned Patriotic American Citizen here to help protect and serve our fellow Americans being victimized by these illegals aliens and support the Border Patrol in the deterring of illegal incursions onto American soil.

    KC Massey
    CO Camp LoneStar

    1. avatar Danny Griffin says:

      Wow, wonder why the LEOs took everyone’s guns? They weren’t involved with the shooting, and how are their weapons part of the investigation? WTF?

      1. avatar B says:

        You know why. The feds have to record all the serial numbers, names, and addresses. Plus to show who’s boss.

      2. avatar Dirk Diggler says:

        make sure you count all of your rounds. wouldn’t be surprised if they used YOUR weapons to smoke a few illegals and BLAME you.

      3. avatar Mark N. says:

        Any time a firearm is at a location where an incident occurs, police will seize it as ‘evidence” and “as part of their investigation.” It is nonsense. Police just don’t like it when civilians have firearms in their presence. The excuse that the firearms needed to be “secured” because illegals might attack and seize them–with a bunch of BP standing around–was complete hog wash. None of these weapons were used in a crime and none are evidence of a crime. Only the pistol is even arguably “relevant” to the investigation of the officer’s weapons discharge, and a photograph of the person holding it would have been more than sufficient.

        1. avatar Tom Collins says:

          Police are civilians…

    2. avatar Hannibal says:

      Don’t worry guys, it’s “non-classified.” Roger Roger!

      Jesus, and people say the cops are ‘playing soldier’! These guys not only dress in cammies but have to play soldier with paperwork, too…

      1. If you have been trained in techniques that work, you tend to use them.

    3. avatar juliesa says:

      Thanks for posting that. It kind of sounds as if the BP guy mistook the volunteer for an illegal because the volunteer is Hispanic. Thank God no one was hurt.

      This border situation is a gd mess. By this report, it looks as if BP and volunteers were trying to do what they could, and it’s still not enough. I don’t know what the solution is, but the agencies, LEOs, volunteers and landowners are being overwhelmed.

    4. Steve:

      Please keep me informed on any further developments. You can send me an email at isherllc@gmail.com.

    5. Steve,

      Can you point us to a source for the statement that you posted? I am coming up dry on it.

      1. avatar Steve says:

        Sorry, I forgot to attribute the source, something I ordinarily ALWAYS do. The release came courtesy http://guerillamedianetwork.com/

        Because of the sensational nature of the source, I took quite a bit of time trying to find anything or anyone, anywhere, to refute it’s authenticity and came up empty.

    6. avatar Roscoe says:

      There sure isn’t any CYA in THAT report.

      /sarc off/

    7. avatar Chip Bennett says:

      incidental discharge”?

      Seems to me like the discharge was intentional, and negligent.

  18. avatar former water walker says:

    So the militia guy was completely in the right? And some of you still think he did something wrong? Guess I’m just a keyboard commando 🙂

    1. avatar Roscoe says:

      Where there’s smoke, there’s fire; and your keys are smokin’, Dude. 😉

  19. avatar projectile dysfunction says:

    yes I’m sure that this federal agent will get in a lot of trouble for firing shots at someone without provocation and will be punished to the fullest extent of the laahahahahahahhahahahah

    1. avatar .38 wheelgun says:

      held a straight face longer than I could.

  20. avatar Ralph says:

    Maybe the BP guy thought that the militia guy was a black male. They’re in season.

  21. avatar John in Ohio says:

    If it went down as described, this is one of those situations that I would think should be considered “no harm, no foul.” Assuming the person shot at wasn’t interested in charges or otherwise pursuing the issue, I wouldn’t have a problem with a simple refresher on ROE for the agent.

    1. avatar B says:

      See, the problem is it was a Fed who actually broke the law here. That just won’t do. Thats why they are scouring records, checking plates, measuring barrels, looking for any kind of crime to pin on this group to cover up their own.

      1. avatar John in Ohio says:

        Yeah, after reading some of the comments here, I’m thinking that I missed some major details. Usually, I try to read the story, comment if necessary, and then read comments. I’ll read things again, perhaps see what I missed and correct myself afterwards.

      2. avatar Steve Day says:

        Bingo!

        They have to find a reason to justify attempted murder – even if it’s after the fact.

        “We can’t go down for this guys. Find whatever you can on them… even if it’s unpaid student loans!”

    2. avatar John in Ohio says:

      If “KC Massey’s” report (above) is real and accurate then government is clearly in the wrong regarding their response to the incident. BP should have been falling over itself to apologize and not playing Gestapo. 🙁

      Perhaps people should remained armed and refuse to comply in these situations in the future.

      1. avatar Tom Collins says:

        No good deed goes unpunished…

  22. avatar Mark Lloyd says:

    This is where this BS over officer safety has gone too far. The cops anymore can kill your dog, beat people, basically violate ever law and decency, all in the name of officer safety.
    Since when does being a cop override being a free citizen? Being a cop is a tough and dangerous job. Get used to it or don’t be a cop.

  23. avatar Ken Hagler says:

    It’s interesting to compare this incident to the recent cases where cops have killed young black men with airsoft guns.

    1. avatar Steve Day says:

      The only difference is that the BPA missed his target…. Though Holder, Obama, Sharpton, Jackson (et. all) will never admit it.

  24. avatar Unapologetic American says:

    Let’s see, the BP officer not only shoots at an American citizen but ALL four of his shots miss their target, there’s so much “wrong” here.

    First the Border Patrol REFUSE or are PROHIBITED from opening fire on the REAL criminals ie. the verminous, tubercular, social disease ridden invaders and drug mules. Hell, the border should be a “Free Fire Zone”. Second just which EEOC/AA hire can’t hit his target?

    Screw this PC (politically correct) crap, ICE/BP should be shooting ALL the ILLEGAL ALIENS no matter what their age as they attempt to cross our southern border, what the hell did we taxpayers foot the bill for millions of rounds of ammunition for if they, the Feds, ain’t going to use on those who most deserve it?

    Yeah I know those millions of rounds of ammo purchased by the Feds are intended for US, the law abiding citizens who refuse to be re-educated into “Marxist/Leftist think”.

    1. avatar Ken Hagler says:

      Oh look, it’s Tyler Craddock.

      1. avatar Unapologetic American says:

        Not! Unlike Leftist Tyler Craddock (had to look him up) I’m a “closed border”, “Open Carry” everywhere, TEA Party-type of guy.

        1. avatar Unapologetic American says:

          Now that I’ve taken the time to see what Tyler Craddock has written I’ll take that as a compliment.

          My idea for a New Civilian Marksmanship Program: Inviting law-abiding gun owners down to the southern border to cull the herds of illegals aliens crossing into the USA. Since ICE/BP aren’t doing anything they can set the yard markers ie. 50, 100, 200, 300, 500 for us, tally the scores, and they can distribute “awards” after all we MUST have medals and trophies for everyone or the Liberals will complain.

          There’s a reason I chose the name “Unapologetic American”.

        2. avatar Roscoe says:

          There was a time in the 20’s I think when foreign Mexico border crossers were shot by border guards if they didn’t go back and stay back. That was often at the whim of competing land owners and labor needs.

          But then an official Border Patrol was formed and civil rights came along and politics screwed up the whole thing.
          😉

      2. avatar Evan in Dallas says:

        We all know it’s not murder if it’s just a bunch of brown foreigners. They aren’t really people anyway so just drop em like a sack of potatoes with the biggest bullet you can find.

        /sarc

        1. avatar lolinski says:

          I was hoping for sarcasm but didn’t find it.

          Being a bloodthristy wannabe murderer is not being unapologetically American (I think).

        2. avatar Unapologetic American says:

          Evan in Dallas:

          You like the hordes of illegal aliens so much then you can house, clothe, and feed them.

  25. avatar Tac o says:

    I love how the article quoted some official saying they didn’t need militia and that they have enough feds to take care of it…if the feds could take care of it, we wouldn’t have tens of thousands of illegals invading the country and the militia wouldn’t think about wasting their time there…but alas the militia sees the gov’t sitting around doing nothing about the invasion so the militia is there. Personally, I think a mine field and shooting ANYONE who sets a foot over the line is completely reasonable…

    1. avatar Roscoe says:

      The Feds COULD take care of it, humanely, but there isn’t the political will, nor with oft changing party dominance in the White House and Capital Hill, the ongoing political commitment to secure the border with Mexico. It would take a massive infusion of manpower and technology to secure the line end to end and well out past costal waters.

      Ain’t gonna happen. Too many unearned entitlement handouts and fraudulent welfare claims to fund, and not just to the poor.

      1. avatar John in Ohio says:

        Then you would agree that non-border-patrol citizens patrolling the border is a necessary solution in reality.

        1. avatar Roscoe says:

          No; and the subject incident is a great example of why.

        2. avatar John in Ohio says:

          The subject incident might very well be dramatic instance.

          Since, according to your previous post, your ideal solution “ain’t gonna happen,” what do you suggest would work that is actually possible?

        3. avatar Roscoe says:

          Drivers speeding, driving DUI, texting while driving, and road rage can be deadly and regularly are the cause of injury and death. Should we have armed vigilante traffic law enforcers to fill THAT void in enforcement?

          Under our current societal norms and customs, some things just aren’t gonna be fixed, at least anytime soon. As long as there is political and economic draw, illegal aliens are gonna come.

          Illegals are unpopular and the border areas are mostly remote. If the border was commonly traveled like our highways and roadways, and illegals held in higher esteem like a regular citizen, militia intervention would not be tolerated by the general public nor law enforcement, particularly armed intervention.

          El Paso for example has built up areas running right up to the fence line. Busy, commonly traveled areas. You won’t see any armed militia running around there.

          Without a huge underling change in commitment and resources from policy makers, there may simply be no long-term remedy to our border problem. We can shore up enforcement but as long as there is economic draw, illegals are still going to come and get through; there are soooo many ways.

        4. avatar John in Ohio says:

          Drivers speeding, driving DUI, texting while driving, and road rage are not the same as securing a border of a sovereign nation. There’s really no comparison there.

          BTW: I’m a believer in open borders.

        5. avatar Roscoe says:

          Same concept, and you would not like the result of open borders. Forget life as you know it, and it wouldn’t be for the better.

        6. avatar John in Ohio says:

          No, it is not the same concept and you haven’t a clue of what I would prefer.

  26. avatar Deadeye says:

    Need more facts. Did the guy have a dog with him?

    1. avatar Roscoe says:

      Ha-Ha! You mean the ‘militia’ guy?

      He should have. Illegals, coyotes, mules, cartel and local bandidos don’t bring dogs with them, so less chance of being mistaken for one of the above.

  27. avatar Missouri_Mule says:

    So why isn’t this criminal in a uniform under arrest for assault with a deadly weapon or attempted murder?
    There was no hesitation by George Bush 43 to prosecute Ramos and Compean for shooting at undocumented people trying to run them over with a van .

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