Gun Exemption for NYC Synagogues? Fuggedaboudit!

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“’People are scared,’ he said, referring to violence against Jews in France and Germany. ‘It’s coming here, if it’s not here already.’” That’s New York City rabbi Gary Moskowitz talking to nypost.com about the anti-Isreal backlash over the current bout of tsuris in Gaza. London’s already seen large demonstrations, and as the rabbi notes, Europe’s experienced plenty of violence. Not wanting to wait and see if the same develops on this side of the Atlantic, Moskowitz has an idea for protecting his flock. He’s “trying to persuade politicians to change city law to allow ‘premise permits’ for members of every synagogue in the five boroughs.” . . .

So far, pro-Palestine demonstrations in the Big Apple haven’t been particularly large or successful. But the way the rabbi sees it,

All houses of worship that have received credible threats should be eligible to legally allow their members to carry firearms, Moskowitz said.

Raise your hand if you think the cleric and ex-NYPD copper will find a sympathetic ear for special carry exemptions from any member of New York City government. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

City councilman Mark Levine’s response no doubt typifies the kind of reasoned, thoughtful reception Moskowitz is likely to get.

“We need fewer, not more, guns on the street, period,” the West Harlem Democrat said. “This would make us less safe, not more safe.”

comments

  1. avatar Anon in CT says:

    Who’s “us” Kemosabe?

    1. avatar Vhyrus says:

      He means himself and other politicians, duh. Fewer guns total means more under his direct control.

    2. avatar Johannes P. says:

      Well, if you are the ones likely to attack, having your victims armed does make you less safe.

  2. avatar Vhyrus says:

    It’s ok, Bloomberg will use his clout and millions to secure permits for his people as a show of support for Israel, just like when he flew there during the airline boycott….

    won’t he?

    If this ever actually went through, though, and I lived in NYC, I would ‘reaffirm my beliefs’ in a New York minute.

  3. avatar Jake says:

    Safety is a lie. There is no such thing, much the same as there is no such thing as cold.

  4. avatar jwm says:

    No. All citizens should be legally able to tool up regardless of their race, religion or gender. Or orientation. No carveouts for any groups. We all deserve the right to defend our selves regardless of zip code.

    For the record. Pro Isreal.

    1. avatar Mr Pierogie says:

      Well, yes and no. I’m just as defenseless here on the streets of NJ as they are at shul in NYC, but they are at a greater risk, so I’m not opposed to them getting an exemption. However, as you’ve said, we should all have the right to carry no matter where we live or what our (non)religious denomination is. But who knows, if rabbi and his congregation can get the ball rolling for more NYC residents getting a permit to own/carry, that would be great.

      1. avatar Brian Miller says:

        The only reason an exception should be granted is so the other restrictions could then be contested and then ruled unconstitutional under the equal protection clause. We all sink or rise together, no one merits more civil rights than another.

      2. avatar Jus Bill says:

        Since we’re talking about “common sense” exemptions, why not exempt everyone except criminals and politicians? I know, there’s no difference.

      3. avatar John says:

        I live in NJ as well.
        I just wanted to say thanks for making NJ’s arguement for them. /sarcasm
        The primary reason we can’t carry in NJ is because of the “justifiable need” clause in the law and here you go making statements like “but they are at a greater risk”
        Level of risk has nothing to do with the god given right to defend yourself or others.

  5. avatar Accur81 says:

    If the synagogues are on private property, why are ridiculous NYC carry laws even a factor? Even in the (pro-gun) parts of anti-gun CA, gun range employees open carry.

    1. avatar Vhyrus says:

      How do you, as a citizen of New York City, get the gun to and from the Temple? If it has to be unloaded and in a locked case before you leave the door and until you get inside then you might as well be carrying a squirt gun. It won’t mean a damn bit of good if there are people waiting for you in the parking lot or around the corner.

      1. avatar Hannibal says:

        Which certainly speaks to the absurdity of NYC laws but I see no reason why it shouldn’t be equally absurd as when you’re going to dinner.

    2. avatar Taylor TX says:

      “Even in the (pro-gun) parts of anti-gun CA, gun range employees open carry.”

      OH MAN I got a helluva laugh from this one, thank you 🙂

      So I imagine the pro gun parts of CA are literally gun stores, gun ranges and the home of other gun owners haha

      Even then youre still “on the lord’s land” when they decide to change your status from serf to Enemy of The State.

      1. avatar Brian Miller says:

        Try the vast majority of the Central Valley, North State, Sierras, and the Mojave. Only reason CA is stupid and blue is because of population density in SF & LA.

      2. avatar Accur81 says:

        Thanks. I live in Orange County, which is both Republican and relatively pro-gun. The taxes are also lower (funny how that works,eh?). As has been said before, the large urban populations of LA and San Fran ruin the rest of the state. It’s similar to NYC ruining NY state.

        1. avatar Taylor TX says:

          I would never have honestly imagined that it would be honestly. Truthfully, the majority of my experience in CA is in the two areas you listed and San Diego which were pretty much all pretty influential in my apparently uninformed opinion about some of CA.

  6. avatar LongPurple says:

    “We need fewer, not more, guns on the street, period,” the West Harlem Democrat said. “This would make us less safe, not more safe.”

    Of course. It’s simple, basic mathematics. Just like; “If a woman requires 9 months of gestation to give birth, we will assign 9 women to the task and complete the birth in 1 month.”

    1. avatar Delmarva Chip says:

      lol. Thanks for clearing that up.

      I thought he was referring to some sort of magical spell that is cast by guns that makes people bad, and when the guns are removed, people magically become good.

    2. avatar twency says:

      I wonder if he thinks NYPD should disarm their officers in the name of safety.

      1. avatar bigx5murf says:

        They already force nypd to carry weapons modified with triggers with twice the pull weight, effectively hampering their weapon accuracy.

        1. avatar MamaLiberty says:

          So THAT’S why the NYC cops shoot so many bystanders. Well, one reason anyway. I carry a .357M revolver with a 5 pound DA trigger. I’ve carried it for many years and so far have not shot anyone, intentionally or otherwise.

          Back to the topic… Everyone has the same basic authority to defend themselves, and the right to do so by any means they find necessary. Those seeking special “permission” from the overlords aren’t helping that along any.

        2. avatar Hannibal says:

          MamaLiberty try more than doubling that to 11ish pounds and see if you get a drop in accuracy.

    3. avatar LongPurple says:

      What I find an insult to logic is the attempt to quantify everything in such a simplistic manner, as illustrated by the mis-application of mathematics to childbirth. In the same sort of invalid math, “More ‘guns on the street’ can only mean more ‘gun violence'”. That totally ignores the difference in quality between more law-abiding citizens being armed and able to defend themselves, and more criminals with “guns on the street”, prepared to do violence.

  7. avatar pwrserge says:

    I’m going to say that any Jew that voluntarily surrenders his or her right to armed self defense, has failed to learn from history. Much more so than any member of another religion. The fact that Bloomberg can support Israel with one hand and yet deny Jews (along with everybody else) the right to defend themselves in their homes and places of worship with the other is absurd hypocrisy of the highest order.

    1. avatar Paelorian says:

      I agree completely. This proposed exception will not be approved by the city government. I am sure. But, hypothetically speaking, even if it were allowed it’s a sad fact that most Jews, raised in a (secular, non-Jewish) culture of hoplophobia, would disapprove of the presence of firearms. My parents belong to a congregation in Brooklyn. Some members have long desired an “armed guard”, but the synagogue cannot afford it. Not that it would greatly improve safety as a murderer could murder the guard first, with the element of surprise, and then proceed to murder with impunity. Firearms embedded among the responsible members of the congregation is the obvious solution, if it was legal. However my parents have spoken to me more than once about hearing an anti-gun speech or rant by a speaker at the synagogue. If I was there I don’t know if I could have held my tongue. If a single gunman entered the synagogue he could kill everyone with no effective resistance. It’s happened before and will happen again. All Jews are targets (and to some degree all humans are targets) and should recognize that and arm themselves to protect themselves.

      I personally would consider it moral failure if I didn’t permanently leave New York City in order to be able to keep and bear arms. What kind of man would I be if I didn’t strive to always posses the tools and skills to defend my family, friends, and those who share my values? Most Jews worldwide were murdered through genocide during World War II, and it was far from the first mass murder of or genocide attempt against Jews, who have lived exclusively as a minority among the nations of others for nearly two millennia and bear the effects of thousands of years of xenophobia. I don’t care if I’m defending Jews, American Indians, Japanese people, or Irishmen from mass murder. I’m not devoting my life to being the world’s policeman, but at the very least I won’t let such evil happen around me, in my country, without putting my life on the line to stop it. When I say, “Never again.”, it’s not toothless. It says in the Talmud, “If someone comes to murder you, rise up and kill him first.” I intend to.

      1. avatar Garrison Hall says:

        This is why “never again” means exactly that. When I first read the history of the holocaust, I was struck by how absolutely alone in the world Jews were just before WWII. This time around Jews can defend themselves. And this time around Jews will have allies.

    2. avatar Rich Grise says:

      I suspect Bloomie is a Nazi spirit who has incarnated in Jewish form – they find that an excellent hiing place.

  8. avatar Eric says:

    Mr. Moskowitz must think that he lives in the land of the free.

    1. avatar Paelorian says:

      Unfortunately I still spend the majority of my time in New York City. That the city does not recognize these human rights is a disgrace to America. It is not the land of the free, it is a land of subjugated subjects who cannot be trusted by their government or their neighbor with the power to defend themselves against rape, grievous bodily harm, murder, or other grave crimes. If all of America was like New York City, I would leave America and not look back lest I turn to salt.

  9. Silly Rabbi. The State will provide all the security you require…

    1. avatar Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

      The kicks are for trids!

      1. Heh – you heard that one too, eh? Oldie, but goodie…

  10. avatar Garrison Hall says:

    Obviously Jews should expect to share responsibility for the hatred directed against them. After all, as Obama has said, it’s only fair. Armed Jews in NYC? That’s only going to make things worse. [/heavy sarc]

    1. avatar Rick the Bear says:

      Oh Garrison,

      I can’t remember what city he was in, but their police chief told we bumpkins that the only reason criminals “tool up” is to counter the threat from non-criminals. Sooooo, the Jews remaining unarmed is the best thing that they can do to ensure their safety. Not.

  11. avatar Pulatso says:

    On one hand, sure that sounds great! On the other, were I Jewish and worried about a coming storm, the last thing I would want is the government to have a list of armed Jews.

    1. avatar pwrserge says:

      Because that’s worse than them having a list of unarmed Jews… How? Exactly?

      1. avatar Pulatso says:

        My fear is that it could become a list of unarmed Jews.

        1. avatar pwrserge says:

          They already have a list of the latter under birth certificates.

  12. avatar Tumbleweed says:

    The NYC political crooks don’t really care about saving you if you don’t vote for them!

  13. avatar KCK says:

    “We need fewer, not more, guns on the street, period,” the West Harlem Democrat said. “This would make us less safe, not more safe.”

    On the street on the street on the street blah blah blah.
    The request is for in the temple, not the streets.

    See how language is used.

    BTW, First, who is us? 2nd, I didn’t know the NYPD was going “Bobby” to make the streets safer.

  14. avatar doesky2 says:

    This experience might prompt one or two Jews in all of NYC to come to the realization that Democrats are not their supporters.

    Dennis Prager gives the best explanation of why many Jews stick with the Democratic party when it is plain to see that the Republican party is a much better friend to Jews and Israel……

    …and that is….

    “They value their leftism over their Judaism.”

    1. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

      Exactly.

      Which is why I’m fresh out of sympathy for the above cause.

      What goes around, comes around, and many, many pro-gun goyim have told Jews who have supported gun control over the decades “You’re not thinking all that clearly on this ‘ban the gun’ agenda…” only to have been called names and be told to STFU, we didn’t know anything about Jews and Judaism. Same deal with warnings to Jews that the Democrats would sell them down the river one day when push came to shove.

      Well, now comes the “We told you so.”

      The problem is, the “we told you so” method of education works only if those who had the foresight stand back and let the ignorant get what they wanted, good and hard.

      1. avatar Rich Grise says:

        “The problem is, the “we told you so” method of education works only if those who had the foresight stand back and let the ignorant get what they wanted, good and hard.
        Reply”

        The “We told you so” method only works if the ignorant who get it are still alive.

    2. avatar Paco says:

      Prager is bought and paid for propagandist. Any serious reference to this guy is a huge red flag.

  15. avatar Scrubula says:

    And this is why required licensing is the same as banning guns. Because all they have to do is say, you cant get a license because you want to protect yourself at the synagogue.
    Look at the machinegun ban. At first, they just said license it and you can still buy and keep them. Then they closed registration, making it a complete ban for everyone who isn’t upper class.

  16. avatar Joe R. says:

    Ain’t that a beotch.

    They (pissant NY) were too busy trying to disarm the rest of us to finally figure out human nature as defined by the rules of armed conflict.

    When government says “We cannot protect you unless you _______________________” Only the first part of the statement is true.

    umm umm ummmm

  17. avatar Don1974 says:

    I fully support our gun owning (or want to be gun owning) Jewish brothers and sisters. Those living in New York city are in a real tight spot. They need to protect themselves from a real and serious threat and I’m sure they want to stay on the right side of the law. I’ve always liked the idea of better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 if you know what I mean.

  18. avatar Gregolas says:

    The New York courts will shoot down his request on equal protection grounds, i.e., why just carry in synagogues, why not all houses of worship?
    If he framed it as an “All houses of worship” idea, that would pass the equal protection hurdle. Unfortunately, the courts of New York would come up with a thousand more hurdles to deny it.

    1. avatar Paelorian says:

      I agree. Everyone deserves human rights, and all types of houses of worship have come under attack at one time or another and are always at some level of risk. Doesn’t matter if it’s Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Catholics, Protestants, etc. A law should also protect the rights of the most distrusted/hated group in America and allow carry among athiests. And everyone else.

  19. avatar Rick the Bear says:

    (ring, ring) (ring, ring) Some Jews need to pick up the clue phone, ’cause it will stop ringing at some point (like in the train cars). Oh, the lefty Jews just love to spout “Never Again” while they depend on the government to protect them from, um, the government. “Oh, but that would never happen here!”. I’m sure that the German (etc.) Jews said the same thing. Look how that turned out.

    My synagogue has a banner that says “Support Israel in Her Quest for Peace”. In response to no one needs guns, I usually say that when Israel takes the “moral high road” and disarms, I will get rid of my guns. Neither will happen. With the current wave of anti-Semitism, my synagogue has “enhanced security”. Yeah, right. While speaking with the synagogue president, I offered to bring my rifle to services. He thought that I was kidding. As John Wayne said, “Not hardly”. Well, for now, ol’ LC9 will continue to be my constant services companion. I’m afraid that I’m the only one, though. I suppose that some resistance is better than none.

    In an outreach effort, I have put ads for the NRA Pistol class in the newsletters for both my synagogue and my sister’s without a single inquiry. I (obviously) offer to take individuals to the range, but I’ve only gotten a couple of takers. I know that a couple is better than none. It will be sad to hear people ‘kvetch’ (complain) AFTER an event occurs, rather than have preventive strategies discussed BEFORE.

    Alright, I’m done ranting.

    1. avatar Yellow Devil says:

      At least you are starting small and getting interest from some takers. We sometimes assume that any action needs to be large and overwhelming, but starting small and establishing a concrete foundation is often better then the former.

    2. avatar LongPurple says:

      Those few “converts” you made will lead to others. When a shocking “incident” occurs (as it eventually must), you may have to deputize those few to help you with a flood of suddenly awakened Jews who realize “Never again” requires not only constant vigil, but action to become reality.

      1. avatar Rick the Bear says:

        Thanks for the thoughts, LP. From your text to G-d’s smartphone. 8>)

  20. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

    Under Moskowitz’s proposal, congregants willing to pack heat under their prayer shawls would have to be physically fit and undergo 100 hours of firearms training and a criminal-background check.

    In other words:

    a) people who might need a gun the most aren’t allowed under this proposal, and
    b) people who are “physically fit” (according to which standard, btw?) have to invest three weeks’ time on training, at a location probably well removed from NYC.

    This is a laughably stupid proposal from the get-go.

  21. avatar brad says:

    Where are the lawsuits to regain the second amendment in NYC, NJ, and Mass. et el?

  22. avatar Phil says:

    There’s some kind of propaganda here… using the European riots from the last weeks is full of poop.

    For instance in France, the riots were initiated by two terrorist groups. One pro-palestine extremist group, apparently linked to Hamas, and the other one was the JDL, a Pro-Israel terrorist group created in NYC (oh, surprising, isn’t it?), that is already banned in the US and in Israel but not yet in France. Since those events, the French government is looking to ban them.

    Both extremist groups use forces during the demonstrations to increase violence against each other. They probably both have even nothing to do with the current Palestine-Israel conflict, and they both don’t really represent any muslim or jews people.

    They’re just both terrorist groups full of hate. And they’re both responsible for insecurity and to create hate against both communities. As usual, the oldest trick in the book, divide to conquer! They both try to divide mass population about non-existant problems, using fear and fake demonstrations… Doesn’t it sound familiar to you?

    I don’t say there’s no hate against muslims or jews (or even christians or atheists btw). But the whole hate wave exist because they let extremist people like them to initiate and generate conflicts to create real hate from others, or using any single event to make it a big deal on the media. It’s a pure manipulation game to destabilise societies… very similar to what anti-gun people do every time there’s a shooting.

    Let’s be smarter than that and let’s not fall in this manipulation based on a lot of lies, false flags and/or exaggerations from individual events.

    1. avatar Phil says:

      PS: As a Pro-Gun, I’m all for EVERYONE to have guns to defend themselves. Not just some people based on their race, religion, political opinion, gender, or whatever… and surely not on some fake arguments based on some oversea media lies.

    2. avatar tdiinva says:

      That old moral equivalency argument which really means the writer is sympathetic to HAMAS and the Muslim Brotherhood at least as far as killing Jews goes. Why certainly both sides are equally to blame both the initiators of violence and those who seek to defend themselves.

      1. avatar Paelorian says:

        Plus, the unsubstantiated, unsourced implication that Jewish groups like the JDL are half responsible for the rioting in Europe regarding the current Gaza-Israel conflict is absolute bullshit. A lie. The protests were generally pro-Palestinian and often anti-Zionist and full of hatred for Jews (anti-Semitic). Not exactly a JDL-run demonstration. And what a joke to say that the few dozen active members of the JDL are a force on par with the many millions of Jew-haters and Islamist militants of the world. I have no sympathy for apologists for such crimes as the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre. They’re the scum of the earth. But they’re the fringiest of the fringe. Look at the reaction of almost every other Jew and Jewish organization to such attacks of terrorism, universal condemnation. Meanwhile, the Palestinian leadership actively executes acts of murderous terrorism. Would any leader of Palestine speak of a Palestinian anti-Israel terrorist in the way that the Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Rabin did about the Jewish perpetrator of that massacre?

        From The New York Times:

        But in words both lacerating and relentless, Mr. Rabin declared murderous settlers to be outcasts, alien to Israel and to Judaism.

        “I am shamed over the disgrace imposed upon us by a degenerate murderer,” he said.

        “You are not part of the community of Israel,” he continued, addressing the most militant settlers. “You are not part of the national democratic camp which we all belong to in this house, and many of the people despise you. You are not partners in the Zionist enterprise. You are a foreign implant. You are an errant weed. Sensible Judaism spits you out. You placed yourself outside the wall of Jewish law.

        You are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism.”

        —Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Rabin, quoted in The New York Times March 1, 1994

        I agree with him. Jews disown those people. Those lovers and worshipers of murder and murderous hatred can be torn apart by alligators for all I care. They’re not Jews, they’re perverters of Jewish principles, like Devil-worshippers. For their evil, I don’t consider them men. They’re less than cockroaches. But keep in mind that they are very few in number and of little influence, with almost zero support in the greater Jewish community or the outside world.

        1. avatar Phil says:

          For the French riots, as said, there was some Pro-Hamas extremists in the Palestine protests… yes, no doubt about it. But, they were contained by the organisation and police. They were dozen of Palestine protests everywhere else in France with no incident and no violence at all.

          And you have to know that JDL guys planed the Paris attacks on the Palestine protest and they actually did initiate them (One of the guy did even announce them on Twitter. Even a french speaking IDF soldier ask him over Twitter to NOT initiate riots and not do such actions). Officially they were supposed to protect the synagogue, but in fact they were actually the ones that strike first, breaking tables, chairs, cars, provoking the protesters to find and fight with some Hamas extremists… that eventually did heavily strike back.

          Because there’s some videos over the internet that actually show how it happened and show they’re half responsible for the riots, now the government is looking to reprimand the JDL and probably ban it. Some media did correct their story few days later when the videos showed up. Those videos were actually used to arrest people.

          So no, it’s not a lie… they’re both half responsible for the riots. If you’d be living in France and see it when it happened, you’d know it. And if the US and Israel did class the JDL as a terrorist group, it might be for a reason… probably the same reason why the Hamas is also a terrorist group.

          Again, it doesn’t justify any rights for any criminal and terrorist organisations… and surely not to bring in Europe a conflict that happens in the middle-east. But we have to be very careful about the real cause of the whole destabilisation and hate and where it comes from…

          I’m just saying, be careful to propaganda, because it’s not always how the medias show it to you… We, Pro-Gun, should already know that. Today, with Internet, it gets easier to have more info and even more videos from every possible angle to have a better clear picture.

          IMHO, in this case, the JDL is clearly one of the bad guy, and even really bad for the great Jewish community, as well as for Israel cause.

          And regarding the extremist muslims, it’s not even a secret they’re a terrorist group and they’re already infiltrated in France. Condemning the JDL doesn’t mean being sympathetic with extremist muslims either…

        2. avatar tdiinva says:

          Yeah, those upity Jews deserve it.

  23. avatar Paco says:

    Pieces like this give this site a carnival or circus feel, really strains the credibility of the site.

  24. avatar Geoff PR says:

    The Temple should buy a nice, heavy, quality gun safe and few pistols. Let the Temple leaders hand ’em out to the congregation. After services, back in the safe.

    The Rabbi can register them to the Temple address.

  25. avatar Former Water Walker says:

    Oy vey you can’t have it both ways. If you support left wing democrats you deserve what you get. I’ve been told you don’t understand-similar to Dy gunsmith. I’ve also been told I only support Jewish people because I wan’t them to become believers in Jesus Christ. This by my mechanic whose uncle helped found the state of Israel..Whatever. Keep that knife on you neck. You can’t save everyone RF. From a goy in Illinois.

  26. avatar Jay in Florida says:

    I was a NYC resident until 1991. When they said its time to register your long arms.
    I said FY and got the hell out. I havent been back since and don’t intend to while Im alive..
    Anyone and I mean anyone feed up with the laws of your land and you don’t like them can leave.
    If I did it. Anyone can uproot and give up everything to live relatively free.
    Even here in the mostly GunShine state.
    If I did it anybody can do it.

  27. avatar all over again no way says:

    you need to train supply the sons and daughters of jews to use guns !
    instant retaliations makes a big impression on the minds of enemies.
    if comes to tit for tat then lay there dead bodies down quick.
    these people must know exactly what never again means to them.
    this is when and where ever it may arise solution.

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