Botched "paramilitary" police raids (courtesy cato.org)

Once again, TTAG’s taken some heat for featuring more than a few police officers in our Irresponsible Gun Owner of the Day feature. Some commentators feel that law enforcement officers are over-represented, indicating an anti-cop bias. I’ve already admitted that I view police officers with suspicion. Not only do most top cops actively support gun control, but LEOs at the sharp end are often careless with firearms and, worse, unaccountable for their safety violations. Not to mention lethal SWAT-mania (as above) and unnecessary dog shootings. Despite all that, is TTAG unfairly portraying police firearms malfeasance? Nope. And John Lott has the stats to prove it . . .

One extremely easy fact to get information on is how law-abiding permit holders are. Much of the existing public discussion on crimes committed by permit holders in the media involves a report by the Violence Policy Center. Unfortunately, that report contains many inaccuracies as it often double or triple  counts cases that shouldn’t even be counted as crimes or problems with guns to  begin with.

Consider the two large states at the front of the current debate, Florida and Texas: Both states provide easy web access to detailed records of permit holders.During over two decades, from October 1, 1987 to May 31, 2014, Florida has issued permits to more than 2.64 million people, with the average person holding a permit for more than a decade.

Few — 168 (about 0.006%) — have had their permits revoked for any type of firearms related violation, the most common being accidentally carrying a concealed handgun into a gun-free zone such as a school or an airport, not threats or acts of violence. It is an annual rate of 0.0002 percent.

The already low revocation rate has been declining over time. Over the last 77 months from January 2008 through May 2014, just 4 permits have been revoked for firearms-related violations. With an average of about 875,000 active permit holders per year during those years, the annual revocation rate for firearms related violations is 0.00007 percent – 7 one hundred thousandths of one percentage point.

For all revocations, the annual rate in Florida is 0.012 percent.

The numbers are similarly low in Texas. In 2012, the latest year that crime data are available, there were 584,850 active license holders.

Out of these, 120 were convicted of either a misdemeanor or a felony, a rate of 0.021 percent, with only
a few of these crimes involving a gun.

The Florida numbers can easily be compared to data on firearms violations by police officers during the three years from January 1, 2005 through December 31, 2007.

During that time period, the annual rate of such violations by police was at least 0.007 percent. That is higher than the rate for permit holders in Florida. The police data on total annual offenses also provide a direct comparison for Florida and Texas. The rate of all crimes committed by police is 0.124 percent – a number about 6 times higher than the rate for in Texas and about 10 times higher than for Florida.

So police are six times more likely to commit a firearms offense than a licensed non-LEO in Texas and 10 times more likely in Florida. And that’s not taking into account the so-called thin blue line (police cover ups). So, statistically speaking, TTAG is not picking on cops.

Do we have a moral obligation to support the boys in blue? I don’t think so. I think we have a moral obligation to hold them to the same standards as we hold ourselves, only higher. They are, after all, public servants.

Your thoughts?

154 Responses to Housekeeping: Is TTAG [Still] Picking on Cops?

    • +1
      How much support do you get from LEOs?

      The enemy of my enemy is – if not my outspoken friend – my enemy.
      If being my friend gets you in-dutch with your-friends, then you need to tie a pork-chop around your neck because that is your-dog.

    • OK by me. One of the antis’ favorite lies is that police are so “trained” or something that they can be trusted with even firearms essentially banned for the public, and that every citizen with a gun is some kind of disaster waiting to happen.

      • Yeah because qualifying quarterly to annually makes you far more experienced than the person that’s been shooting most his/her life, training frequently, and actually researching firearms because he/she is interested in them. I don’t understand why the general public thinks police and most military are training like the SEALs everyday.

      • Far, far too many cops are unnecessarily aggressive and intentionally intimidating people and actively seek to escalate just about every situation they encounter. In Austin TX, I’ve spoken to many homeless people and their stories have a very common thread of wanton abuse, blatant rights violations, and violence from cops.

        Cops richly deserve to be bashed. Every day, they throw people in a cage for possessing plant life. It doesn’t matter if it’s the “law”, so were the fugitive slave laws. Was it the right thing to do to return an escaped slave to his “master?”

        Well, it’s not the right thing to kidnap and cage someone for possessing a leaf either. So if you bust people who smoke pot or others who haven’t harmed or threatened anyone, you’re a bad cop. Period.

    • Using the map in your article to prove your point is disingenuous at best. I live in an area that has about 4.5 million residents and there are 6 bubbles. Sounds bad, doesn’t it? But if you actually click on them and look at those incident reports they cover a time frame of 25 years. I know, even one is too many and all that. But lets get real here. Cops have a tough job and make mistakes and nobody’s denying there are some bad ones. Just like any other profession.

      • The problem isn’t that they make mistakes. The problem is that they make mistakes and get away with it. Mistakes that, if made by a common citizen, would mean dire consequences. Like throwing grenades into cribs, or drunkenly shooting up innocents.

        • Also, I would add to your excellent point about accountability that part of the problem is that we are talking about mistakes that have ended in death or serious injury.

          The are serious mistakes.

          We are not talking about “Ooops, I wrote him a ticket for speeding when he wasn’t really going over the posted limit. My bad.”

          They have tremendous responsibility, and the consequences to innocent people when they screw up can be enormous.

      • Yes, every profession has bad apples. But police departments fail to clean up their act and discipline or fire the bad actors.

        Cops are shielded by “qualified immunity” and get to keep their jobs despite their wrong-doing.

        Police close ranks and lie to protect themselves and fellow officers. Just check Youtube for dash cam or bystander videos where cops are routinely caught lying.

        Too bad cops aren’t held to the same standards as nurses (see Mark’s comment below).

        Also, based on some quick Internet searches of the news, the map doesn’t look like it’s being properly updated: it is grossly UNDERREPORTING the SWAT situation.

  1. I wouldn’t say it’s nessescarily anti cop. I am one and I’ve never felt ostracized or bullied here. Those police who royally screw up with guns and violate people’s civil rights deserve all the scrutiny and punishment they can get. It’s unfortunate that I am often viewed with mistrust because of the uniform I wear, but I understand why that stereotype has emerged and make it one of my goals to show the public I serve that the majority of us are still good honest hard working people who legitimately want to help.

    TTAG has also featured Sgt. Hayes’ commentary on issues. It would be hard to fairly label TTAG as anti police.

      • Just as the actions of one gun owner don’t represent the whole community, the actions of a minority of police don’t represent them as a whole.
        With that said police have certain responsibilities that (are supposed to) come with the job. Cover-ups and anonymity after police crimes are appalling no matter what.

        • Right. The actions of the ‘minority’ shouldn’t make us distrust the 5% of cops who honestly try to act as peace officers.

          I think it’s a ‘corporate culture’ thing, where a badly infected company (Chitcago PD or LAPD for example) can be 100% bad apples (with less than 1% exceptions). OTOH, there are probably many departments where the bad apples are nonexistent or not likely to last out their 90 day post hiring probation.

    • Until cops that commit firearms stupidity are treated exactly the same way as common citizens that commit the same act, you will have an uphill battle. The dirtiest expression to human rights in the police legal lexicon is “qualified immunity”. If you uphold the law, you should be held responsible under the law the same way everyone else is.

  2. In my opinion, if the police are being irreplaceable with their firearms, why not? Are the police sapposed to be above the rest of us? Not have a light shine on them when they break the law? I say keep it up, as TTAG points out the regular simple fook do the same.

  3. As long as your are being fair nothing wrong with putting the spotlight on leos they are still human and just as error prone as anyone else and yes they do get preferential treatment everywhere when they screw up

  4. I agree, cops should absolutely be held to a higher standard, and be held personally responsible. No more tax payer funded lawsuit settlements.

  5. Revise it a bit blue state cops & cops that should not be cops support Obama, Reid, Bloomberg et al… real cops support the constitution & law. I only know 2 both from NY that support the nonsense. Gun control is hitting what you aim at. Most w/30 years in are police not Army washouts or want anything in camo unless we are hunting

  6. Trained as an officer and looking into being a paramedic agent with border patrol. I don’t generally trust police and I expect them to be held to a higher standard.

    • You’re wise to have a skeptical view.

      Before you join the Border Patrol, you may want to see how some of your future coworkers behave toward citizens exercising their rights at suspicionless “immigration” checkpoints FAR inside the U.S. border.

      Roadblock Revelations
      Exposing The Police State One Checkpoint At A Time
      https://www.checkpointusa.org/blog/

      • And more importantly, to my understanding, is how you will be treated by the DOJ, DHS, HHS etc. Agents are below the bottom of the manure pile. No one will standup for you for anything.

        The biggish paycheck would NOT be worth it. Find something else. You have EMS and that is what trips your trigger you can find a job at ambulance service or FD. Not for me, I’ll stick with fire.

  7. You’re not being unfair. Fortunately (or unfortunately) generalizations apply.

    Cops in general are dangerous AND lousy shots. Ask those two women in LA in the pickup truck delivering papers. I think it was over 140 shots. Those cops should be identified, imprisoned and fired (in any order you like). Or ask that baby that got the flash bang grenade in the crib in GA.

    Cops walk because others let them and they have the dirty on the prosecutors and judges. They are like politicians, get dirt on someone and save it for the right time.

    Fear the police, they will kill you. . . . and then head out for coffee and two large donuts.

    • The spray and pray crowd hard at work. I wonder how much marksmanship is valued by the average police department?

      • Unfortunately, not much. Despite being armed at all times, and being in the position to make life and death decisions: at least 50% or better of the cops I know take no pride in marksmanship. Sad but true.

      • They have no incentive to be good shots. They can miss all they want and kill as many innocent bystanders as they want because they have immunity. They are imagined to have more rights than the rest of us. Think about it.

      • I think a fair measure would be to look at the budget line item for ammunition. Fairly large in proportion to total budget expenditures year after year would mean it’s going somewhere; hopefully being burned on the range.

  8. I have a strong respect for the Officer’s that uphold their oath’s. Unfortunately, you rarely hear about them. When I do it’s usually something along the lines of “that goody two shoes”, as though being responsible with their authority is a joke.

    It must be hard to toe the line when so many would mock and belittle you for it. Regardless, I will not accept personal weakness as an acceptable excuse for abusive behavior.

    I am of the opinion that this is another complicated cultural issue. It’s not just “this one thing”, or “the left”, it’s us. All of us and what we punish or reward everyone else for, not just cops. You teach kids it’s acceptable to bully or be bullied and it might grow into “unnecessary raids” or their acceptance of the “necessity” of raids.

    • It’s certainly risky standing up to the system.

      Serpico certainly comes mind.

      Edward Snowden is another.

  9. Just the ones that earn it. And usually to show the hypocrisy of plebes thinking they are somehow a special type of civilian (which they aren’t).

  10. Yup I remember both those raids in my town…both were circus shows, one was complete with the clown car rolled up on the front yard and swat clowns hiding behind it..turns out the family had a BBQ the day before and failed to invite the disgruntled neighbor who ” swatted” them but never mind that it was a good Meth busting exercise.

    ..Regional SWAT in my town likes to put their little sticker on the back of their cruisers, and members are super paranoid..most live in cul-d-sacs with their cruisers backed in, bat-cave style…. to prevent retaliation i suppose.. Must get old having to watch your ass and be on high alert 24/7.

    • Kinda like the INTEL guy on M*A*S*H in days gone by. I’ve known a couple of guys like that in the service. When they finally snap, they SNAP. One hung himself and the other one ate a bullet.

  11. Well if you say it, it must be true?

    Go ahead and tell yourself whatever you want to…the proof is in the pudding. Show me some positive LEO stories somewhere on this website, and I’ll begin to believe you. Until then, you’re just grinding your axe safely from behind your keyboard in your own public forum.

    Yes, TTAG and it’s publisher are anti law enforcement.

    “I’ve already admitted that I view police officers with suspicion.” Free country, feel how you want to.

    “Not only do most top cops actively support gun control,” NOT true, at least where I’m from. Maybe on your end of the world, but that goes for a large number of citizens from the same areas where the cops support it. BLUE states.

    “but LEOs at the sharp end are often careless with firearms” And it’s always a high profile media event when they are. At least higher profile than if Joe Dirt shoots himself at a gun range by accident.

    “and, worse, unaccountable for their safety violations.” Sometimes true, can’t argue there. Unaccountable happens elsewhere too…Obama, OJ, IRS…the list goes on.

    “Not to mention lethal SWAT-mania (as above)” It’s really easy to criticize and armchair quarterback from behind a keyboard. Yeah, bad things happen, everywhere, all the time. It sucks, but that’s the truth. Maybe with some Hollywood script writers, stunt coordinators, and plenty of retakes the real life thing will start working out like it does in the movies…until then…mistakes will happen.

    “and unnecessary dog shootings.” I’m actually with you here, I agree that this is becoming a large failure to train issue for LE…and something needs to be done.

    • Where do you live? An underpopulated red state? I hate to break it to you but we have the biggest blue president. Nearly every cop that I know is anti-gun and I live in the suburbs, a supposed transition area between blue and red. The only law enforcement that is consistently pro gun are (for the most part) county sheriffs.
      As for police being careless and it getting reported, what would you rather have? The police being careless and getting away with it? They are supposed to serve the public, not be lords over the public. Same life same laws same standards.
      How did the United States stand from 1776 until 1985 without swat teams? It must have been hell what with all that negotiating and talking to the criminals to solve the problem.
      Why do we even need Swat teams. Swat teams are basically guys that want to play soldier but don’t actually want to fight a true enemy. If you want to kill people go try and shoot up some fools over in a middle eastern country. It is incredibly rare that swat teams are ever needed. Swat teams are far from what the founding fathers envisioned for this country. ..(4th amendment ever heard of it?) ..

      • North Georgia my friend…plenty of pro-gun LE down here.

        I might partially agree with you on SWAT teams. Large urban areas might need that kind of response available quickly, but local suburban and rural areas…not so much. Maybe managed at the State level, rather than the local…

        And, why yes, I have heard of that amendment. It’s the one between 3 and 5! Those SWAT teams are supposed to have a warrant, signed by a judge from somewhere, who was elected by the people, or appointed by someone who was elected by the people…before they can go breaching, banging, and clearing. Due process.

        • “Due process.”

          If you call no-knock service “due process,” you and I have a far different interpretation of the spirit of the 4th Amendment.

          Former LEO. Hate “no knock.” Think it is immoral.

          And just because a judge signs it, does not make it moral.

        • SGC says: “Those SWAT teams are supposed to have a warrant, signed by a judge from somewhere, who was elected by the people, or appointed by someone who was elected by the people…before they can go breaching, banging, and clearing.”

          Let’s see. Who’s advocating for all those no-knock warrants?

          Public? Nope.
          Judges? Nope.
          Police? Ba-da-bing!

          Of course, it also great for reality TV producers foisting such shlock as “COPS” and “Lawman” on the public.

          And what compelling interest justifies a 1500% increase in all that “breaching, banging, and clearing” for mostly routine warrants?

          As National Review points out: “The number of raids conducted by local police SWAT teams has gone from 3,000 a year in the 1980s to over 50,000 a year today.”

          The United States of SWAT?
          Military-style units from government agencies are wreaking havoc on non-violent citizens.
          http://tinyurl.com/lnj4rt7 (National Review)

          Police need to stop playing “soldier” and get off their power trip.

    • “Yeah, bad things happen, everywhere, all the time. It sucks, but that’s the truth. Maybe with some Hollywood script writers, stunt coordinators, and plenty of retakes the real life thing will start working out like it does in the movies…until then…mistakes will happen.”

      Really? That’s the best you can do? Mistakes will happen?

      Like some jack-in-office deciding to use SWAT for the following?

      Monks Arrested In SWAT Team Action
      http://tinyurl.com/l2435zt (KETV)

      Heads roll after botched Orlando barbershop raids
      http://tinyurl.com/o9pr5vp (Reuters)

      13 Wisconsin officials raid animal shelter to kill baby deer named Giggles
      http://tinyurl.com/muypkx6 (Washington Times)

      Police Raid Rawesome Foods, Dump Raw Milk
      http://tinyurl.com/nx4ttqp (Forbes)

      If You Don’t Want a SWAT Team at Your Door, You Shouldn’t Be Drinking Tea
      http://tinyurl.com/pzojscu (Reason)

      Lumber Union Protectionists Incited SWAT Raid On My Factory, Says Gibson Guitar CEO
      http://tinyurl.com/mdlr5py (Forbes)

      “Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book”: The new warrior cop is out of control
      http://tinyurl.com/n46he3d (Salon)

      Police Raid Berwyn Heights Mayor’s Home, Kill His 2 Dogs
      http://tinyurl.com/6l8ysq (Washington Post)

      Kansas Couple: Indoor Gardening Prompted Pot Raid
      http://tinyurl.com/kcexeue (KMOX)

      Fake Twitter account of Peoria, Ill., mayor prompts police raid
      http://tinyurl.com/mv2l4ek (LA Times)

      DC Police Raid Home, Arrest Man for Possession of Single Shotgun Shell and Spent Cartridge
      http://tinyurl.com/mvvx8dr (Truth About Guns)

  12. Nope. Summed it up pretty nicely, actually.

    There is, as a matter of unarguable fact, a hilariously one-sided double-standard in regards to confronting bad behavior from the police vs. the citizenry. It’s exclusively to their benefit, in case no one caught the implication. And, uh, no there is absolutely not anything “anti-cop” about that, either. It should be highlighted whenever and wherever possible until such time that it goes away, and anyone complaining about it — and they have every right to do so and I certainly won’t stop them — can collectively go eat a dick. Seriously. They’re only covering for, and thereby encouraging, bad behavior when they do.

  13. Lies, damned lied, and statistics.

    He’s taking data from one website (crime by permit holders) and comparing it against data from a different single study (re: police crimes) that uses a completely different methodology as if the two can be put side by side. It’s a crap analysis.

    • “It’s a crap analysis.”

      I do enjoy it when folks with no demonstrable expertise in a field openly criticize someone with a very strong reputation in that field.

      Query 1: What is your background on statistical analysis? Any at all?

      I’ve taught graduate level coursework on data analysis, conducted (and published peer reviewed) research and written commercial statistics software and I will take John Lott’s analysis over Hannibal the Cop’s Internet posts any day of the week.

      Query 2: Do you actually know the context of Twain’s quote, or do you just like to repeat it?

      Because, he was actually applying it to illustrate that if HE did math, as one that did not understand it, it would be a lie.

      The entire quote:

      Figures often beguile me” he wrote, “particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: ‘There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.‘”

      (Twain’s attribution to Disraeli is not considered correct).

      He’s saying if HE did the calculations, they would be a lie because he’s no good at math.

      He’s not saying that statistics themselves, properly computed area lie.

      • “I do enjoy it when folks with no demonstrable expertise in a field openly criticize someone with a very strong reputation in that field.”

        Hypocrite much? Kind of like the many here who have never worn a uniform who apparently know everything about how a cop should be?

        • Just to be clear, are you calling me a hypocrite on the assumption that I have ‘never worn the uniform?’

          Perhaps you have missed one of the many times where I have stated that I am a former LEO. That includes once on this page in response to one of YOUR earlier comments.

          http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/07/robert-farago/housekeeping-is-ttag-picking-on-cops/#comment-1886020

          So, in your opinion, have I earned the right to make the following comments?

          I’m critical of cops having no accountability. I’m critical of no-knock.

          I think cops should act like members of the community they serve. They should live their oath beyond religiously. The day they took that oath they accepted a tremendous responsibility and either they have the courage to live up to that responsibility or they don’t.

        • I’ve worn the uniform, and I’ve worn a robe. We have a problem with piss poor police proceedure, and a lack of over site. Riley County Kansas has a PD run by a law board that is appointed. No accountability to the public. Their influence has caused a degradation in neighboring agencies as well. I’ll leave it at that.

        • WELL THAT MAKES THREE OF US. I have earned the right to my opinion, and apparently you have too. And I agree with you in principal. Accountability, training, and professionalism need to be the norm, not the exception.

          The whole damn point of this article, if you’d have bothered to read it…was that TTAG (The Truth about GUNS) claims it’s not anti-law enforcement biased. I say they are…and have stated why. Every other page on this site has some kind of “bad cop no donut” article. Prove me wrong!

        • “Every other page on this site has some kind of “bad cop no donut” article. Prove me wrong!”

          I’ve already mentioned several articles in recent memory that did not have a ‘bad cop’ bias.

          The cop stories involve guns, so seem perfectly fitting to a gun blog. If Farago has an editorial bias, that’s his business (literally…it’s HIS site), but he’s not the only one that write for the blog.

          Someone else mentioned the articles by Sgt. Patrick Hayes…another good example. He and one or two others are contributing writer that are or were cops and post very non-anti-cop biased articles.

          There have also been quite a few articles where anti-cop remarks were made in the article (fair, it’s HIS web site…he can publish whatever he wants however he wants to write it) and got blasted in the comments for ‘going too far.’ So, to a degree, there is check and balance on the content as a whole.

          {shrug} I see it as a “choose your battles” type of deal. His ‘bias’ isn’t so far leaning that he is unwilling to ‘stand corrected’ nor does he block the publication of pro-cop articles, and most importantly, nor does he block comments critical of his ‘stance,’ at least in my observation.

          I guess I’m trying to say that I personally see no real issue so long as it is clear when he (or anyone) is stating opinion vs fact. Editorializing is good to generate comment activity, too. 😉

        • WELL THAT MAKES THREE OF US. I have earned the right to my opinion, and apparently you have too. And I agree with you in principal.

          In light of your comment, I just can’t let this misuse slide.

          Principal should not be confused with principle. Principle is always a noun, meaning “moral rule”, which is sometimes erroneously used with the meaning of the adjective principal.

          Incorrect: He is the principle musician in the band
          Correct: He is the principal musician in the band

          A mnemonic to avoid this confusion is “The principal alphabetic principle places A before E”.

          Principal is generally not used in the comparative or superlative in formal writing, as the meaning is already superlative. However, one may occasionally see, e.g., more principal meaning more likely to be principal or more nearly principal. There are similar issues with unique.

          https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/principal

          So apparently your mastery of the nuances in the English language is as comprehensive as your mastery of statistical analysis techniques and the LEO profession. BTW, I was an experienced Logistics Engineer as well as a current fluent English speaker.

        • “I have earned the right to my opinion, and apparently you have too.”

          Really? So one can be critical of police only if they’ve worn the uniform?

          Isn’t that like saying victims of mass shootings are the only ones who have earned the right to speak about gun control?

          Given that non-LEOs are on the direct receiving end of police abuse and incompetence, I would think non-LEOs opinion would rate higher. You know, customer satisfaction and all that.

          Remember, the public is your employer.

        • So, SGC, our opinions are invalid because we haven’t worn a uniform? That’s exactly the kind of bullsh1t elitism I’ve come to expect from cops.

          We are citizens. Cops should STFU and listen to us.

        • @Bill: Thanks! Next time I need a term paper graded, I’ll be sure to look you up!

          @John and Ralph: OK, tell me how you would run a law enforcement agency? Same as everyone else here…we all agree on how things “should” be. I don’t agree with the bitching and fapping…that’s all.

        • SGC says: “OK, tell me how you would run a law enforcement agency?”

          For starters:

          * Hold bad cops accountable (suspension without pay, firing, lifetime ban on LEO work, etc.)
          * Stop no-knock warrants except for the most extreme situations
          * Stop hassling, intimidating, arresting the public for filming police
          * Greater transparency with the public
          * Enlist the public’s support in community policing
          * Learn techniques to properly deal with the mentally ill, homeless, etc.
          * Train officers in de-escalating situations rather than escalating them

          Oh yeah, defend the Constitution.

  14. Police need to be held accountable for their bad actions, just like everyone else. TTAG does that. Carry on 🙂

  15. I have a defense attorney friend who butts heads with cops and prosecutors all the time. He said that really you have both good and bad cops, prosecutors, and judges. One of his problems with the bad cops, prosecutors, and judges, is that there is very little real reviews, accountability, discipline, and penalties for them. Most of the government legal system rubber stamps whatever the ” cowboys” in blue do what they want to do.. I had an uncle who was a deputy sheriff and he was an okay guy, but he was lousy with a gun. One of my dad’s friends was an actual sheriff and he was a nice guy, but he was obese and lousy with guns as well. My dad actually trained the county LEOs with automatic weapons and marksman ship. LEOs are mostly normal humans with all the strengths and weaknesses as anybody else. The police need to be policed like everyone else.

  16. I wouldn’t lurk here every day if changed. There are plenty of pro cop gun blogs & sites. You are the only site I have EVER joined. I am not saying we should get rid of police. It’s just that I see my country sliding into totalitarian authoritarian mess. And I lived in Chicago for years & still live nearby. ‘Nuff said…

    • I’m not even asking anyone to be “pro” LE. How about just a little fair reporting: an equal amount of good cop versus bad cop stories. How is that wrong?

      • Why does it have to be equal reporting?

        Besides that, your premise of “no pro-cop stories” is flat out wrong. The MI OC story from a couple of weeks ago, Matt’s daily digest often contains pro-cop snippets and there are others.

        But, back to equal reporting, where is it written that even SHOULD be a thing? Who cares? This is not “The Equal Weight to Cop Stories” blog, is it?

        This “equal time” thing reminds me of that rule the Progs wanted passed by the FCC a few years back that would require stuff like for every one hour of Rush Limbaugh, there was an hour of someone like Al Franken.

        The push back against that then was because it’s a commercial decision. Radio stations carry what they can sell advertising to, and very few markets wanted a Franken on the air.

        Ditto here. This web site is a commercial enterprise built around a political issue. The followers and advertisers want content that is relevant, not “equal time” on some arbitrary sub-point.

        That’s my take, anyway.

        • “This is not “The Equal Weight to Cop Stories” blog, is it?”

          It’s also not the “Lets fap and hate on cops blog”

          It’s THE TRUTH ABOUT GUNS.

        • To SGC regarding “It’s also not the ‘Lets fap and hate on cops blog’ It’s THE TRUTH ABOUT GUNS.”

          Please note the first sentence of the first paragraph on TTAG’s About Us page:

          “Robert Farago founded The Truth About Guns in February of 2010 to explore the ethics, morality, business, politics, culture, technology, practice, strategy, dangers and fun of guns.”

          Hmm. Let’s see which ones might apply to police.

          * Ethics of guns — Internal investigation finds officer’s actions justified!
          * Morality of guns — Stop resisting! Stop resisting!
          * Business of guns — Cha-ching! Love them LEO firearms discounts!
          * Politics of guns — Blue phalanx photo ops come election time!
          * Culture of guns — When bored, shoot the dog!
          * Technology of guns — Mayor, I need a MRAP for my department!
          * Practice of guns — Practice? Oh yeah…fire, ready, aim!
          * Strategy of guns — It looked like a gun when I shot him!
          * Dangers of guns — I’m going to shoot you in the head!
          * Fun of guns — The thingy that goes up!

          The public entrusts police with tremendous responsibility, power and force.

          Given “qualified immunity,” it’s incumbent on the citizenry that we hold police accountable to the very highest of standards. This includes calling them on their BS.

          For officers that interpret as “hate” the legitimate criticism of our country’s now militarized police, perhaps it is a sign of a guilty conscience.

          The way to engender greater respect and trust from the public is to do it the old-fashioned way: earn it.

          A good starting point:

          “On my honor,
          I will never betray my badge,
          my integrity, my character,
          or the public trust.
          I will always have the courage
          to hold myself and others
          accountable for our actions.
          I will always uphold the Constitution,
          the community,
          and the agency I serve,
          so help me God.”

        • JG: Great, everyone already knows that, and agrees with you. What’s the argument there?

          The post asked if TTAG is being biased against law enforcement. My answer is yes, and no one has disproved me yet. Lets go back through the blog here and count every positive and negative story about law enforcement and let the numbers speak for themselves…

      • Are you really bawling for the institution of the fairness doctrine here? Lol?

        Go polish belt buckles somewhere else, cupcake.

        • I’ll take care of those belt buckles…you just keep on polishing knobs in the mens room…:)

      • I’m thinking that more negative cops-with-guns stories get published because TTAG does not have its own reporters in every town of the nation. It uses what it finds on the websites and television stations of news agencies who do. “Policeman does job right and only the perp was perf’d” is not as newsworthy as “Idiot cop shoots people accidently”.
        In short: The bad cop stories involving guns are more easy to find.

      • SGC, if you want “good cops” stories, read the internet circle-jerk known as “PoliceOne.” You won’t be disappointed.

  17. I have found Missouri State Highway Patrol are very professional. I have gotten warnings and tickets from them but they are always done correctly. I feel the same about police in Columbia MO. I will admit “some” of the small town cops in Missouri are not professional, and need a lot more training.

    • Agree about the HP. As far as small towns go… Just drive up to Sugar Creek, MO. “The little speedtrap on MO-291.” There are several small towns in the Kansas City area that pay their “civil servants” extremely well using funds from speed traps.

    • Wish I could say the same about the KHP. They have gone batshitcrazy along I70. When you are fighting a war on drugs against the Mexican cartels in your own back yard, you are losing.

  18. Considering that usually noone else takes ’em to task, our doing so is a #υ¢κ¡И6 moral imperative!

  19. Think about this for a minute:

    To become a cop (entry level)…most places require high school diploma, medical exam, basic entry test, police academy, PT test, psych evaluation, polygraph…

    To become a Sheriff…just get elected!

    To become a Police Chief…just kiss enough ass to be appointed.

      • It is entirely possible for a City Chief of Police or even a Sheriff to get the job (the first by appointment and the second by election) without ever having served a single day as a cop.

        I have worked on both a City department and a Sheriff’s Office. The Chief of the City department I was on (city about 50,000, department about 100 sworn officers) had never worked on the street of a city that size. He had been a cop for only a few years, and most of his “time” was in admin of VERY small departments. They had to make special exemptions in his ‘training’ for him to qualify.

        He was a political appointee, and he ended up causing the department and the City a LOT of problems. In the 5 or so year tenure he had, he also ran off a lot of good, trained and experienced “old school” cops…old school meaning the kind that did not thing throwing flash-bangs into cribs was a good idea.

        Going to an “academy” does not make one a cop. Time on the street does. I have very limited time on the street compared to some of the cops that post here on TTAG. But, I had more practical experience than the Chief of the department I was on.

    • Sheriffs answer to the people. That is why they are the best lawmen that are still in this half rat infested country.

    • True…the requirements to be a flat foot are a lot more stringent that becoming an agency head in most cases. Chiefs and Sheriff’s are politicians with a badge and a gun in most cases…not actual cops…

      • The problem is that the flat foots don’t often think for themselves as evidenced by this post. The “politician cop” as you call sheriffs actually answer to the people, unlike most “flat foots.”

  20. “Do we have a moral obligation to support the boys in blue? I don’t think so. I think we have a moral obligation to hold them to the same standards as we hold ourselves, only higher. They are, after all, public servants.”

    Well Done. Many firearm enthusiast are LEO’s and they have a tendency to chill similar speech on other forums. Thank you for keeping the dialogue honest.

  21. I’m a 40+ very conservative red-state well paid engineer who grew up with the utmost respect for law enforcement and always believed that the criminal got what was coming to him.

    In the past 10 years I have done a complete 180 degree change in mindset along with significant uptick in my passion about the lawlessness I see amongst LEO’s.

    IMHO, if the police have lost people like me they are in very serious trouble. They need to get their sheet together….quickly. I’m betting they won’t. In the meantime I’m all for curtailing their wage increases and benefits packages as much as possible.

  22. Police should be held accountable for their actions. It is the definition of justice. A blindfold woman with a sword in one hand, and a scale in the other. Why do cops get a different scale because they are cops?

  23. While its important that we reward failing gun owners with IGOTD, you should also just be aware of your anti-cop bias and try not to let it seep into articles as much as possible. Im fully aware that you wont do this, but I thought Id throw in my 2 cents.

    • Or get a real job.

      My apologies to the majority of cops who do actual crime fighting police work instead of writing parking tickets and rousting homeless people.

  24. Instead of guessing, I tried a litmus test.

    At the Oak Creek Sikh Temple shooting, a police officer took the nutjob down, with a rifle, at range, while taking fire. It would seem perfect fodder for a gun blog to do a write-up on a shot like that.

    So I ran “Oak Creek Sikh” through Google, limiting it to ttag. Results?

    One article noting an LEO shot the guy.

    Nothing about details of the shot, no editorial commendation, nothing. Comments had a few positive notes for both the wounded officer and for the one with the rifle shot.

    Considering that any maladjusted flat-foot who accidentally discharges his agency-issued, safetyless GLOCK brand GLOCK into the pavement becomes front-page fodder, the difference is striking.

    How about the next time you guys go to tactical training, you try to recreate the rifle shot? Talk about the difficulty of taking a low-rent AR that’s spent the last few years bouncing around a squad car and use it to put rounds in center mass while taking fire (maybe airsoft or paint) and your buddy’s bleeding out before your eyes.

    Now that would be both interesting and balanced.

    The question is, is TTAG up for it?

    • Interesting, I never heard about that. Cops are involved in far more shootings than the bulk of gun owners. Certainly some of them handle such situations well. Their stories deserve to be told.

        • I know a lot of guys that could make that shot. It’s called serving in the United States Army or Marines. Look there is good police out there, but every time they do something like this they get a damn bronze statue. I think that there is not enough light shined on all the police who are slowly taking this country down the road to lawlessness and brigandry. Leave TTAG to do its thing.

    • I think there’s some selection bias there. The top cops that are making press conferences about guns at all are mostly pro-gun-control.

      Perhaps the real bias is in the reporting, though, not the top cops themselves. Perhaps they only get ‘air time’ or banner headlines if they are singing the praises of gun control.

      Certainly the Sheriff’s of CO did not favor the mag ban and from what I have gathered, NY has some problems with unSAFE enforcement commitment.

      And Detroit’s CoP certainly breaks the mold. I’m hoping his example encourages other Chiefs to speak out against gun control.

      • It’s funny to watch the mainstream media paint Detroit Police Chief James Craig as pro violence and pro vigilante due to those comments. They are doing their best to make him look unfit (because he isn’t telling the gun control narrative). Funny when compared to how they cover Chicago Police Superintendent Garry McCarthy, who about 3 days ago was crying for the federal government to do something about guns.

        In my experience (yes it’s a generalization) the political appointed law enforcement are mostly anti-gun (in lockstep with the mayor/governor), while elected law enforcement (i.e. County Sheriffs) are typically pro-gun (but not all, see William T. Schatzman Forsyth County Sheriff), because they listen to the voters.

        Thankfully my local Sheriff went so far as to sent out a notice telling CCH holder he would not release CCH holders info to media outlets (back when the media wanted to make maps of CCH holders) unless/until they dragged him into court and he was forced to comply (before that info was shielded by law).
        http://www.grnc.org/documents/gastonletter.pdf

      • I personally think the CLEO (whatever his department is called) should be an elected position. Period. An appointed chief of police is a disaster waiting to happen.

  25. I’m a nurse, and I’ve got to tell you, the board of nursing in my state is downright medieval on nurses with complaints filed against them – three times a year the board meets for several days and dishes out censures, discipline letters, probation and *lifetime* employment bans for nurses accused of wrongdoing. Any complaint that’s filed against you gets posted to a state-run website within hours of being received – so even one psycho patient can get you fired and make you unemployable for months on end while the complaint is investigated. (and investigations often take a year to complete!)

    And, unlike cops, state law compels nurses to “cooperate” with investigators and make written statements, which can then be used against you in a courtroom later. Nurses are required by law to self-report *every* mistake they make at work, and there are penalties attached to all of them. Give one pill an hour late, and you’ve committed a “med error” – when you self-report that, you’re guaranteed a letter of concern in your state records.

    It’s a classic case of sexism – in a female-dominated field, every mistake is worthy of shaming and termination – in a male-dominated field, mistakes are only human.

    When cops can live up to the standards I have to live up to, I’ll stop bashing cops. Until then, you guys can spin.

    • Mark: “It’s a classic case of sexism”

      Everything is a case of “sexism” in the mind of the leftist. There couldn’t possibly be any other reason for it. It MUST be gender bias. Because, you know, rampant abuse and blatant double standards in the law against women are something this hyper-feminist culture of ours likes to tolerate and turn a blind eye to…Yep.

      Give me a break.

  26. Lets take a step back from the keyboard a second shall we? Let us remember all of the arguments we defend ourselves from with the Anti-gun public and keep that fresh.

    There are good cops and bad cops. There is a lot of media hype and attention given to cops that make bad choices and make mistakes. We hate it when the anti-gun crowd labels all of us pro-gun people as wild deranged wackos who want to shoot up a school. Guess what – just like “gun owner stores gun safely in house with kids” doesn’t make the news – neither does “cop helps stranded motorist”. Lets not label the group on the actions of a few.

    Look – most importantly – this is a stupid question to ask. All this has done is build a giant list of “pro-gun anti-law enforcement” quotes. It may alienate a part of the body that reads this and lets remember that we need to remain UNIFIED to defeat the anti-gun movement. So instead of smashing on our own – how about that Bloomberg guy?

    • Sorry, no such thing as a good cop. Were the cops “good” when they enforced the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 and returned human beings who were being treated like cattle back to their “masters?”

      Every cop actively enforces bad laws like the Fugitive Slave Act, namely the war on drugs. Any cop that busts someone for a leaf in his pocket is a bad cop and every cop has done that.

      If a cop turns good, then he must never bust someone for a leaf or any other victimless crime, therefore he’ll be promptly fired and therefore there is no such thing a s a good cop.

  27. I come from a family of LEO’s so I am biased
    Many Many cops are power mad quasi criminals, some are repressed murderers and rapists hiding behind a badge. Virtually all are elitist tribalists embedded into a questionable crony political system that keeps the Power Elite in power.
    You only catch flack when your over the target.

    • “You only catch FLAK when you’re over the target.”

      Hadn’t heard that one in way too long; true, and thanks.

    • This is gospel. I also come from a family with a three generation tradition of police work and tried my hand at it myself. Hiring standards are an absolute joke in many areas (Accur81 may remember when LASO was openly hiring “former” gang members who still had their gang tats,) union protection, and the nature of the job itself tends to attract some seriously unstable folks. The romantic idea that cops can/will/do protect the public and get the bad guys off the street does still bring in some good people to the job, but too few to offset the meatheads anymore.

      Funny thing about growing up with cops, I had a really screwed up view of people for most of my younger life. Took me a long time to figure out that not everybody was a criminal waiting to shoot you in the back and rape your girlfriend.

      • All true, and part of the cycle of the problem: selection process, training, and weeding out the bad ones. Plus, at least where I live down south…the hiring pool. Average starting salaries in my area are between 20-25K a year: most cops are GED/High School level folks or former military. Who in their right mind with a four year college degree and any other opportunities in life is going to sign up for a job with “hold to a higher standard” requirements, where people hate you, and you get paid less than a manager at McDonalds in some cases? LE, like most other government systems…is broken.

  28. I am far more afraid of any cop than a common street thug. I fear a wrong-door no-knock raid, and if that happens I’ll probably be shot because I’ll probably have a handgun in my hand. Or maybe I will train myself to not grab my gun if my door is being kicked in so I don’t get shot by cops, but if it is a street thug then I’m dead. Thanks a lot, cops.

    • In his book, “Bandits”, Eric Hobsbawm commented that, since they often come from similar backgrounds and social classes, the differences between law enforcers and criminals can be very slight. Hobsbawm was a Marxist historian and so his analyses tended to be class based. His view that law enforcers and criminals were essentially the same kinds of people who simply have different agendas continues to be controversial. What is true is, like criminals, the police are a subculture which differentiates strongly between itself and the general public.

      There is a reason this site is is called The TRUTH About Guns.

  29. This is from a retired peace officers point of view…

    Is TTAG picking on cops?
    I don’t think so.
    While I do see a bit of bias in how an article is written, to be honest, the ones written about here well deserve it.
    The story/stories are usually really bad ones.

    What I’ve come to learn over the last 30 years is that there is a huge difference between the average small town cop and the average big city cop. Same with east versus west of the Mississippi. (See map above).
    I’ve written other cops tickets. Written tickets to their kids.
    Reported an officer who back handed a prisoner.
    Participated in arresting another officer.

    I think Mr. Bixby summed it up nicely a few comments up.

    What is difficult for me to understand is the attitude of a few of the commenters here.
    F all cops. All cops are criminals.
    Cops are never held accountable. Blah, blah, blah.

    Here’s an example of small town accountability.
    I got a day off without pay for “looking sarcastic” during a traffic stop.
    After the two day internal investigation. (Yes, I worked during the investigation as no,crime was alleged).
    Then ordered to take a “diversity training” class that lasted 2 days.

    I would like to ask one thing of my fellow commenters.

    When we are told we shouldn’t judge all muslims because the actions of a few, many of us use that argument being a firearms owner.
    Just because some idiot shoots someone/their gun just goes off/ etc…we ask to not judge all gun owners because of the acts of a few.
    So please, don’t judge all cops because of the idiocy of a few.
    Yes, I said few. Heck, New York City has over 30,000 cops between transit, street, etc. if they all went bat s**t crazy and shot someone next week! don’t you think it would make the MSM.

    Now for some bragging.
    “All cops are bad shots”
    I became an instructor at our police academy, while in the academy as a student.
    I can show you medals from the army, and the marines.
    I can show you first place trophies from local, state and international 3-gun matches. (With check stubs from winnings). I’ve been in a few magazines and newspapers.
    I’ve won 2 regional GSSF matches. That’s just me.
    Thankfully though, I never had to fire a shot in anger. So we will never know if I am a bad shot.

    Check out Bruce Piatt. He’s a great guy who happens to be a cop from New Jersey. He’s a world class shooter.
    Last time I chatted with him, he never fired a shot in anger either. Hopefully, he won’t. So we may never know if he’s a bad shot.

    If you’ve read this far, thanks.

    Keep up the good work TTAG.

    • ” . . .So please, don’t judge all cops because of the idiocy of a few. . .” Honestly, I don’t. But I also no longer completely trust the police, just as I no longer have complete trust in government. I think there is a dysfunctional dynamic at work in police culture, we can call it “militarization” but I don’t think that’s quite it, that is causing many police officers to separate themselves ever further from everyday social life. Having been around judges, prosecutors, and police in criminal justice programs, I know this has always been a problem with law enforcement work. Now it’s getting worse. Police work is now more politicized than ever. I find this change frightening.

      The only way to begin to restore a balance is for the bad stuff to be widely publicized. I think that’s what this site is for.

  30. The whole narrative is that police are more highly trained and skilled than the “ordinary” citizen. The power that their position hods as well as the fact that they are armed means they should ALWAYS be held to a higher standard of conduct than us ordinary folk.

  31. Call their @$$ es out. Why should they get ANOTHER free pass for being LEOs? Several family members, and friends are employees of city, state, or federal law enforcement agencies, and they would all agree.

  32. If it is more of a crime to kill or cause injury to an LEO than it is a “normal” citizen, then they are already put on a pedestal as “special.” If you are more important than the average citizen, then you should lead the way in being an exemplary citizen. If you, as an LEO, have ANY group engaging in any criminal activity at a rate below what the LEO community does, you’ve got work to do, don’t you? You can’t be treated differently then complain because you’re treated differently. You’re either special or you’re not. Choose.

  33. I have to support cops. I have lived most of my life and I have not needed the police and the police have not infringed on me. If I get stopped for a moving violation I take it. I don’t whine or pretend I’m Perry Mason. In a situation where I needed assistance I would take up my gun and if I survived I would report the incident to the police but I would not think about calling them for help.
    There are lot’s of things cops do I don’t like but their job is to enforce the law so if it is important to run around with controlled substances in your possession expect to be arrested if stopped by the police. If you want to select what laws will be enforced become the POTUS. Too many cops shoot dogs in your town? Change the law so it’s painful for the cop and costly for the city. It’s not easy but it’s not like you have to take on a strong pro-shoot your dog voting bloc. Don’t like cops using military gear? Sounds like the same argument anti’s use to try and ban “assault weapons”. As a cop I would want the best gear out there. Don’t like no-knock entry? Take it up with SCOTUS – again. There are plenty of innocent people hurt and killed by a cop and there are a lot of dead cops because they tried to do the right thing.

    A cops job is to enforce the law by observation, investigation, serving warrants and making arrests.

    Want better police? Then pay for them. Raise the entry requirements, improve the training and offer a competitive salary.

    By the way, what gear and tactics do the feds use to interact with us citizens? I didn’t see any bows and arrows at the Bundy ranch.

    • I keep hearing argument. “take it up with potus” Thats a cop out for the cops. Give me a break. That’s also what a whole lot of Nazi’s did when they claimed they were “just following orders.” How many cops know right from wrong anymore? Sometimes I wonder. As for the equipment,, do you really think that the average may berry cop needs tanks and trucks designed for WAR zones? We are talking about civil law enforcement, not fighting ISIS.
      How did cops enforce the law before they had swat? That was like 1985 and some of us remember that cops didn’t always beat down doors and shoot first ask questions later,, it was the opposite. Get on the phone or a bull horn and make the bad guys come out, if they did not then maybe it was time to start shooting. And how about my above link which showed that the cops actually disqualify candidates with a IQ over 100.
      Reads to me that they want meat-heads who will take orders no questions asked. Kinda like what old Germany did in the 1930s….

  34. I don’t think the TTAG authors are anti-cop, except perhaps Ralph. Unfortunately, cops screw up with firearms a whole lot more than permit holders, and subsequently face lesser punishments for their mistakes. I’ve done positive things with firearms, and I greatly value marksmanship. My restraint in shooting dogs, shooting competition awards, and responsible gun ownership simply aren’t newsworthy stories.

    The newsworthy stuff often involves negative things. For cops, that’s far too many stories of firearm mistakes. My organization runs a relatively clean ship, but many police agencies don’t. For non-cops, there are all sorts of mistakes, too.

    Just tell it like it is.

  35. Off topic:

    Where can one find statistics on accidental/negligent discharges. Specifically I want to find out do LEOs or citizens shoot themselves accidentally more often?

  36. An active citizenry should be watching the enforcers. No one, absolutely no one is above the law or above scrutiny.

  37. “I think we have a moral obligation to hold them to the same standards as we hold ourselves, only higher.”

    This is the point. If certain cops feel “assaulted” by the truth then they should not be cops. A point I have made repeatedly to cops I know is to focus on getting rid of the f*ck ups instead of complaining about people being angry ABOUT those f*ck ups. And every one of them has responded “Our union won’t let us.”.

    Does anyone else see a pattern in all this?

  38. I find this site and the people who usually comment on it to be mildly anti-police. It doesn’t concern me a whole lot because obviously people entrusted with using force to enforce the law should be held to a higher standard.

    Mostly what concerns me is (1) The almost universal (and universally stupid) belief that anecdotes are data. No matter how many outrageous links you post, you are still in the realm of anecdotes and will never rise to the level of useful data and (2) The equally stupid belief that you can extrapolate conclusions about all law enforcement officers and agencies from something stupid one individual said or did (Internal logic check- would what you’re concluding about the group based on the individual still be true if you said it about CCW permit holders? Or gay people? Or Christians? Or black people?).

    No one likes being judged by the actions or words of other people for whom he or she has no responsibility, and a whole lot of that goes on, though with respect to Mr. Farago, virtually all of it is in the comments.

    • When it happens every day, it’s no longer an anecdote.

      The criticism of police SWAT and militarization is coming from across the political spectrum.

      War Comes Home: The Excessive Militarization of American Policing
      http://tinyurl.com/k2gcr6v (ACLU)

      New ACLU report takes a snapshot of police militarization in the United States
      http://tinyurl.com/mbm5uk4 (Washington Post)

      Rise of the Warrior Cop
      http://tinyurl.com/nb47kkf (Wall St. Journal)

      4 shocking examples of police militarization in America’s small towns
      Research shows that the number of SWAT teams in municipalities smaller than 50,000 is up more than 300 percent
      http://tinyurl.com/ny4q255 (Salon)

      The United States of SWAT?
      Military-style units from government agencies are wreaking havoc on non-violent citizens.
      http://tinyurl.com/lnj4rt7 (National Review)

      Barney Fife Meets Delta Force
      Hypermilitarized police departments are more dangerous than whatever they fight.
      http://tinyurl.com/l7pq3hf (National Review)

      Just Shoot: The Mindset Responsible for Turning Search Warrants into Death Warrants, and SWAT Teams into Death Squads
      http://tinyurl.com/qg9f538 (Rutherford Institute)

      A Government of Wolves: The Emerging American Police State
      http://tinyurl.com/mel3m9n (Amazon)

      Beware the U.S. Education Department SWAT team
      http://tinyurl.com/os2log5 (Heritage Foundation)

      It’s past time to scale back police militarization
      http://tinyurl.com/lhl8nf9 (Heritage Foundation)

      I think commenter doesky2 sums the situation up well: “In the past 10 years I have done a complete 180 degree change in mindset along with significant uptick in my passion about the lawlessness I see amongst LEO’s.

      IMHO, if the police have lost people like me they are in very serious trouble.”

    • Yes, there is more in the comments than in the articles, but it’s kinda like FOX versus CNN…it all depends on the angle of your reporting as to the crowd you attract and the slant your news takes. Farago has his CNN roots showing when it comes to LE stories.

    • “I find this site and the people who usually comment on it to be mildly anti-police.”

      No, no one’s mildly anti-police; they’re just vehemently anti-corruption and abhor stupidity. Which side of the line the police and the politicians choose to stand on is their choice. I’d say the majority here would be more than willing to give the average policeman the benefit of the doubt.

      That said, how does the outcome look to you?

  39. “I think we have a moral obligation to hold them to the same standards as we hold ourselves, only higher. They are, after all, public servants.Your thoughts?”

    Absolutely agree. The police are, moreover, public servants who have been given the power to enforce OUR laws, and who frequently end up making life-or-death decisions for members of the public. Yes, it is an extremely tough job. But the level of public trust and power that they are given DEMANDS that they are held to a higher standard than the general public.

    And by the way, please donate to John Lott’s Crime Prevention Research Center, at 212 Lafayette Ave., Swarthmore, PA 19081 (crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/donate)

  40. I totally agree with the current posting of cop goes bad stories. Yes, it is a very small number of officers that make serious mistakes, but then add in the other officers that assist in cover-ups, and shoddy investigations and then add in management that looks the other way after the “investigation” and the prosecutors that refuse to go after the bad ones and the number gets bigger and bigger, to worrisome levels in my opinion. And most troubling to me is the immunity that the bad ones have from civil liability. I recently read a story of police officers going to extra lengths to rescue a dog on a bridge that made me wonder if they were doing this to offset the number of dogs they shot on raids earlier in the year.

  41. I’d say no. The main thing to remember is that there are cops who are good guys and honestly believe in protecting and serving, and upholding the constitution.

    • I don’t think you understand the cops role, it’s not to protect or serve YOU, its to protect and serve the law..

      as for upholding the constitution, wrong again.. it’s their job to get you to give up your constitutional rights, not to protect your constitutional rights.. it’s your duty to retain your rights.. it’s their duty to get you to give up your rights so lawyers ( lawmakers ) can get a conviction.

    • And then there are those who just go along with the testosterone flow, as in the following:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G63FEamhpA0

      At the 2:00 minute mark, the phrase “scurrying cockroaches” pretty much says it all. Now, giving those in the profession the benefit of the doubt, maybe all the bad LEOs had miraculously moved to Miami ….. or maybe this is just a microcosm of the real depth of the problem; that far too many of them lack the conviction to support the Constitution that they swore to do and stand up and act like fcuking men for once instead of constantly kissing ass to the bullies in control of the playground.

      Meanwhile, back in the schoolyard, there are those apologists who just dismiss the bullying because they also lack conviction. They wind up practicing their skills to become future holster sniffers; always managing to dismiss the obvious long enough so that they never have to actually think about the larger problems within our society.

      • Video cameras and smart phones are the best tools for shining the disinfectant of sunlight on bad cop behavior.

        Carlos Miller has been blazing a trail (particularly in Miami) since 2007 documenting police abuse of people who film them.

        Photography is Not a Crime
        http://photographyisnotacrime.com/

        It’s revealing to see police reaction to being on camera.

        Clearly there’s a lack of interest in transparency around how they conduct themselves while in uniform.

        • Cops’ behavior to being photographed reminds me of Bela Lugosi hissing while using his cape to try to shield himself from sunlight of truth. So far, these uniformed asswipes seem more concerned with their myopic appearance as peer-driven testosterone addicts, while their duty bound co-workers are still busy supporting the Constitution.

          To those latter, their objective is to seek approval through keeping people safe and actually helping to encourage others to help advance “social enlightenment and evolution”. The problem with the former is that can’t even spell the terms, let alone have any concept about what they mean to the performance of their job.

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