From the Annals of Police Militarization: EPA Shuts Down MRAP Transfers

Bastrop County (Texas) MRAP (courtesy statesman.com)

Not exactly gun but . . . TTAG reader RS writes:

You may be interested to know that about two weeks ago the EPA notified DOD that ALL engine powered equipment transfers to ANYONE ANYWHERE was to stop. This includes to fire departments, police, other government entities including GSA and including foreign military sales. This should be shutting off the conduit of MRAP crack to law enforcement. But as they are “special,” who knows? Fire or cop the minimal miles per year isn’t doing diddly in the pollution level. Perhaps the smoke from the fire I’m going to put out might be a large issue? Right now, as Obama closes the Army, a HUGE quantity of great low mile/hour stuff is available. In reality this should be going into storage yards of THE NEXT WAR.

comments

  1. avatar Jay1987 says:

    Well guess they didn’t meet EPA requirements for para military police all terrain up armored oppression mobiles.

    1. avatar pwrserge says:

      Well, it’s nice to see some of O’bung’hole’s stupidity to come back to bite him… Again…

      “If you like your MRAP, you can keep your MRAP.” Right Barry?

      1. avatar Nighthawk says:

        We all benefit from the stymie of police militarization, regardless of what convoluted silliness causes the stymie.

    2. avatar Shawn says:

      This also include the cheap deuce and a half and 5 ton auctions to the public on the gov liquidation website, no more cheap, durable SHTF trucks for the public, at least for the time being. I was on the website, and they cancelled all auctions involving those trucks. And I was just about to bid on one. Grrrr!

  2. avatar dean says:

    Who is running the FN government these days.

    1. avatar Excedrine says:

      Haven’t you heard? Da gubmint has long been an insane asylum, and it’s the crazies who run it.

      After all, while every other First-world country actually cares for its mentally ill (such as they do anyway), we put them in cheap, badly-cut suits, stand them up behind a pulpit, and let them play politics.

    2. avatar The Trouble with Timbo says:

      Haven’t you seen Darth Pelosi and Darth Feinstein? And you ask who is running the US? Obviously the real nutjobs.

      1. avatar Rock says:

        I take exception to you application of the respectable title “Darth” to that hideous numbskull Feinstein.

      2. avatar Anonny Moose says:

        Yeah, of all the uber-liberal-concealed-carry-gun-control government losers that have helped drive our national collapse, I am really hoping to personally meet some of the more-popular ones when all this does go toes-up. I’d like to explain to them some of my chief reasons for specific caliber selections I’ve made.

    3. avatar Marcus Aurelius says:

      What biological system inside a human body “runs” a cancerous tumor?

      It isn’t being run at all. It’s full of various groups of people too busy lurching around based on visceral impulse to check the other parts of government they are supposed to check. You have people blindly accepting executive orders as law because those orders align with what they think should happen and ignoring the fact that executive orders aren’t law, legally speaking.

      1. avatar Rich Grise says:

        Marijuana is chemotherapy for the metastasizing cancer of Big Government.

        1. avatar Nick D says:

          No, the only way to cure this level of cancer is massive doses of radiation. Take off, nuke the site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.

  3. avatar dean says:

    “?”

  4. avatar Tom in Oregon says:

    Probably because the EPA figured they didn’t have any for their swat teams to use while doing raids on plumbing shops.
    Or Alaskan gold mines.
    Or my house because I have a back yard fireplace.

    1. avatar FoRealz? says:

      I compost my own poop so I’m hoping that scores me enough green (or brownie) points that they’ll leave my fire pit alone.

      😉

  5. avatar seans says:

    The EPA has blocked SOCOM from importing diesel Toyota trucks for training of SOF. This isn’t anything new.

    1. avatar Marcus Aurelius says:

      I want a damned HiLux!

      1. avatar janitor says:

        they are nice little trucks, id buy one in a heart beat if they were offered here. idk why they havent just started building them domestically.

  6. avatar dh34 says:

    I’m guessing that they don’t meet Tier requirements for year model vehicles. The MRAP program was rushed, actually an anomaly in military procurement for it’s speed. I can’t be sure, but I’m betting that they were probably able to waive some of the emissions requirements since they were going overseas and not really meant for use in CONUS. Given their weight, they probably needed every bit of power to operate effectively.

    I say that because I had some issues with the CA air quality groups with replacement of stationary engines, such as generators.

    1. avatar FoRealz? says:

      Military vehicles have to meet emissions requirements?

      Lol.

      If that’s true, I have to say that we as a nation are so retarded sometimes. I guess that’s not really news though.

      1. avatar Ben Parsons says:

        I recall having to purge the higher-sulfur diesel from my Texas based Abrams to prepare it for transport to another State (probably California – but I honestly do not recall specifically) for some training mission. Early 90’s.
        The practical, and cost effective, solution would have been to burn up what was in there during the training and refill with the approved stuff.
        But practical and cost effective are incompatible with anything gubmint run.

  7. avatar Skyler says:

    Is it too much to post a link or a source?

  8. avatar Powers says:

    Why in hell does the EPA care about this?..Emissions? Really? They spent time, resources and energy calculating, studying, and writing up rules and researching laws for emissions on MRAPS?

    Why Why Why Why Why?

    I don’t want police militarization to go one more inch, but I also think that for God’s sake, why why why?
    Unless this is some super secret attempt to curb police militarization through of all ironic measures, EPA rule enforcement, but still…

    What a waste of nothing but pure time and money for absolutely no damn reason..Again, from the US gov.

    Where is my surprised/shock face?

    1. avatar BlueBronco says:

      EPA needs to go out and do some field work and study mine fields and IED’s. I bet it would be a real blast for them.

    2. avatar The Old Coach says:

      Because it help justify more personnel and a bigger budget. That good enough for ya?

  9. avatar Southern Cross says:

    The MRAP is hardly a Toyota Prius when it comes to emissions but most military grade AFVs are not the most fuel efficient vehicles around.

  10. avatar Dog Face says:

    The EPA has it’s own police force with a SWAT unit. I wonder if this applies to them.

    http://alaskapride.blogspot.com/2013/09/alaska-governor-sean-parnell-outraged.html

  11. avatar S.CROCK says:

    Im sure there will be a cop carve out.

  12. avatar Rick says:

    Maybe ISIS put in a call to Teh iWon for all the “surplus” MWRAPs??

  13. avatar Paul53 says:

    Now how about all the Abrams tank congress is forcing the army to take, but doesn’t want? Some congressmen are keeping jobs in their states by building unwanted armor and forcing the army to eat it in their budgets.
    Who does congress work for?

    1. avatar neiowa says:

      You are very very confused by the way DOD works. The Whitehouse tells the bootlickers (all that remains) at the Pentagon what they want/need/can have. Very very few warriors left, the purge has been very deep over the last 5years.

      Obuma has decided if the US Army/USMC is unprepared for a REAL war there will never been another REAL war. If we surrender before China, Russia, Iran etal before we are challenged they we won’t find ourselves in another war. We must urinate on ourselves etc and the badun will go away.

      1. avatar dh34 says:

        Well, actually what happens is a group of really well meaning folks take input from the fleet and try to capture the needs of the end users in a requirements document. Generally this is in response to a genuine need. As it goes up the chain the requirements become greater and greater and start to deviate form the intent of the original concept as contractors begin to influence the process.

        Then congress gets involved, since they know much better what the troops need than the troops, because a contractor has told them so…and before you know it, a product comes to the fleet that doesn’t meet the requirements or contract specs, so the specs are watered down to meet the capabilities of the submission. Victory is declared and it is deployed.

        The next 5-10 years are spent working the bugs out, at considerable expense. In the end the only winner in the prime, subs and bloated civil service bureaucracy of the DOD acquisition organization.

        1. avatar Jus Bill says:

          I see you’ve been there too. All the DoD “leaders” now work for primes.

        2. avatar Retired Troop says:

          This is why, almost 13 years on since 9/11, American soldiers still do not have a cheap simple handheld radio for squad-level commo.

          Motorola, etc, can churn out $30 (a pair!) UHF walkie-talkies that can do 90% of what needs to be done, but the DoD insists on goldplated 99.9999% solutions that take so long to develop that they’re obsolete by the time they reach the end-users, and that cost so much that we can’t buy enough of them, and no commander wants to risk his high dollar gear in the field so they never get used in training or even combat.

          Same problem with GPS: expensive and crappy PLGRs and DAGRs that end up sitting in the arms room while everyone actually uses $100 Garmins.

      2. avatar Rich Grise says:

        Don’t provoke them; right now all they want is the American infidels off their holy land. Then, if they really do want to attack us, let THEM make the trip half-way across the world, then meet them at the door armed to the teeth.

        Why can other people not see that?

        1. avatar Jus Bill says:

          Beltway Syndrome.

          Just follow the money.

    2. avatar neiowa says:

      Any yes we need a substantial fleet of M1, Bradleys and trucks in mothballs for the next (post Obuma if there is such) way. Which we don’t have.

      The M1 production line (there is only ONE in the entire country) has been closed and the plant now working very very slowly thru rebuilding/updating the tanks worn out in Iraq.

      When the next war happens it would take MONTHS to produce the tanks/APC/trucks needed to expand the Army. Based on historical record the only thing can be sure of is that the next one will not be like the last/current (LIC/”war on terror”). Note that in an exception that proves the rule, in 1991 and in 2003 we were very very well prepared for the last war (fight Russian armored hordes) and as a result we went thru Russian/Iraq army like Robert thru the Israeli supermodel website.

      1. avatar JAS says:

        “………like Robert thru the Israeli supermodel website.”

        ROFLMAO!

  14. avatar Rich Grise says:

    Heh – a house divided against itself! Hooray! 😀

  15. avatar Dom Raso's Boot on Your Neck says:

    Somewhere Dom Raso and his meathead SWAT buddy, Jerry, just puked up a protein bar. So much for their “MRAPs Across America” campaign 🙁

  16. avatar What about Bob says:

    Maybe the EPA has some wars planned….

    1. avatar Rich Grise says:

      “Maybe the EPA has some wars planned”

      Do you mean in addition to the war on coal, the war on oil, the war on anyone who breathes, the war on private property, they’ve found yet another boogeyman?

      1. avatar Jus Bill says:

        You forgot the war on animal farts.

  17. avatar OakRiver says:

    I’m not sure a Prius has the same level of Tacticool

    1. avatar tdiinva says:

      If you armored it up to MRAP standard it would be pretty cool. Whether such a vehicle could actually move is problematic.

      1. avatar Walter Royal says:

        It might not be able to move but it could be a target for a fairly long time.

  18. avatar Frank Masotti says:

    Well I am all for the military not being able to sell military equipment to civilian LEO’s. But, who does the EPA think they are telling any agencies what they can and can not do with their equipment?

    1. avatar dh34 says:

      Well actually, the EPA thinks they are the EPA.

      DOD generally has to comply with EPA regulations, and in some case, state environmental regs, depending on the situation. You would be surprised by what DOD has to deal with stateside. CA is the worst.

      1. avatar Jus Bill says:

        I remember a long, long time ago the EPA got into an armed standoff with the DOE and FBI at a nuclear weapons production plant. Hilarity and hysteria ensued. I see things haven’t changed.

    2. avatar Rich Grise says:

      “But, who does the EPA think they are telling any agencies what they can and can not do with their equipment?”

      They think they’re the Protectors of The Environment, of course.

      1. avatar dh34 says:

        Unfortunately, when in a fed agency or serving in uniform, those pesky executive orders and well, laws become an inconvenient reality…

  19. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

    Well, as I alluded to on the other thread about military equipment in the civilian sector, there are costs.

    Guess what I heard at the local FD meeting this week? All those M35 “Deuce-n-half” 6×6 trucks used by volunteer and state firefighting agencies are being called back to the DOD. Their sales/lease/loan agreements all contained fine print that the DOD can call them back in if they so choose. And the reason given was that the M35’s and their “multi-fuel” engines don’t meet heavy equipment emissions standards.

    This will create a huge hole in western wildland firefighting capabilities this summer if the new regulation is allowed to go through.

    1. avatar dh34 says:

      Anything with a lease type arrangement is subject to recall. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was for EPA compliance, because they technically still own it and are responsible until it is de-mil’d. If they sell it, it becomes the problem of the user.

      We had an issue with trying to get surplus equipment from another agency. Because it was pre-2007 (I can’t remember exact year but something like that) it couldn’t be transferred because we would have to modify it to meet Tier I emission requirements. So basically instead of getting a very low mileage piece of gear surplussed by USAF for free, we cost the taxpayers over $70K for a new CARB compliant one and they sold the other to the public for probably $3K.

    2. avatar Rick says:

      Why do I think this is going to be a critical factor for the next fire season?

      Seems the EPA is getting all pissy since SCOTUS slapped them down a few weeks ago…

      1. avatar dh34 says:

        Having lived in fire country for awhile…if the the Fed actually gave a sh*t about Grand Junction to Barstow, the firefighters wouldn’t be using 1960s-70s surplus M35s and airplanes from the 50s to fight fires. It only becomes an issue when San Diego, San Bernardino, Rancho Cucamonga or wine (Pelosi/Panetta) country is threatened.

    3. avatar Geoff PR says:

      No kidding, considering the decimation of the air-bomber firefighting fleet.

  20. avatar neiowa says:

    This is just one more overreach by the the thugs and fascists in the Obuma admin. EPA notified DOD that ALL engine powered equipment transfers to ANYONE ANYWHERE was to stop. This includes to Fire Dept, Police, other Gov’t entities including GSA and including foreign military sales. Not specific to MRAP includes trucks that date back from LONG before Tier ____ was even a wet dream for the EPA pinheads.

    Huge issue for rural volunteer FD. Many of use substantially equip our FD with Army surplus for tankers, pumps, generators. Stuff would not have available with out these transfer program. Cops don’t need and can’t legitimately use MRAPs. Rural FD need tank trucks to PUT OUR FIRES.

    EPA. when I’m driving a Army surplus 1991 tanker to a fire which is more significant “pollution” source truck that might drive 250mi per year or THE BIG BLACK (excuse me African-American) FIRE??? Morons.

    1. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

      This. This 1000X.

      When I said on the other thread that you can poke your head into any rural fire department and find at least one 6×6 mil-surp truck, I wasn’t kidding. There are VFD’s in Wyoming where everything but their medical truck (usually a one-ton pickup with a camper on it) is a mil-surp truck – either a 6×6, or a Dodge Powerwagon, etc.

      Word from other FD’s in our county runs along the lines of “What are we going to drive to a fire? A bunch of guys on Honda ATV’s all wearing piss-pumps on their backs?”

      For you city folks, this is a something you will barely notice. For people in rural and small city areas all over the US this is a Really Big Deal. MRAP’s are the least of the equipment out there that will cause any impact to public safety.

  21. avatar Larry says:

    Rural fire departments are one of the few places where one of these monster MRAPV things make a sort of sense as the could be useful getting personal to or from remote forest and brush wild fire places where folks might be trapped or smoke jumpers cut off as the CBN equipment should be able to deal with a bit of fire and smoke….

    I still do not see a reasonable use of these things by police forces unless you want them putting down an armed prison riot without caling in the guard.

    1. avatar Jus Bill says:

      You are joking, aren’t you?

  22. avatar dwb says:

    Link? Source? maybe just an election yr rumor.

    1. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

      I believe it is tied into this regulation from the EPA earlier this year:

      http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2014-02-06/pdf/2014-02612.pdf

      1. avatar dwb says:

        blah blah blah, I didn’t see anything about the EPA telling the DoD what to do with MRAPs. I’ll believe it when I see it.

  23. avatar Phil says:

    Still pushing the hybrid MRAPS I guess.

  24. avatar Anonymous says:

    The EPA wanted the MRAPs. Police? No. EPA needs them.

    1. avatar Rich Grise says:

      Yeah, there’s always so many land mines when the EPA goes out assaulting the environmental terrorists, or something…

  25. avatar Rich Grise says:

    What would a patch of caltrops do to one of those things?

    1. avatar Stinkeye says:

      Probably not much. I believe they’re equipped with pretty robust run-flat tires.

      1. avatar Jus Bill says:

        But not Burn-Flat tires.

    2. avatar Anonymous says:

      Police X-Net and a can of gas is all that is needed to eliminate a million dollar MRAP:

  26. avatar Southern Cross says:

    @sh34

    You need to watch “The Pentagon Wars” which is a slightly fictionalized account of the M2 Bradley design and procurement process. The vehicle went from being a replacement for the M113 APC to a full on infantry carrying tank that had half the personnel carrying capacity of the M113.

    In IT we call it creeping featuritis.

    I’ll imagine the M1 Abrams will be banned by the EPA for not complying with fuel consumption and emissions. Someone has to think of the trees.

    1. avatar Rich Grise says:

      “Someone has to think of the trees.”

      The trees would love to have a few of them driving around belching CO2 into their leaves. Trees inhale CO2, you know, which shows how blindingly idiotic it is to try to – to even want to – limit CO2 emissions!

      1. avatar JAS says:

        How times change….. I’m sure when the first Westerner saw a giant Sequoia his first thought was “I’m going to need a bigger saw” :).

    2. avatar dh34 says:

      @Southern Cross. I was in the acquisition community, on the T&E side.

  27. avatar West says:

    What does this mean for civilian sales of the M923, M35, etc. through sites like govt liquidation?

    1. avatar John G. says:

      I was wondering the same thing. M1078’s are coming on the market at decent prices. And they share the same drivetrain with the Caiman MRAP.

      Frankly I find the whole thing hard to believe. Why would trucks going to a nation without emissions laws need to pass scrutiny from the EPA? And didn’t the EPA give police cars an exemption not too long ago?

  28. avatar Southern Cross says:

    @dh34

    In that case you provably have some interesting stories to tell.

    I’m using my phone at work so I can’t reply directly to posts.

  29. avatar Mad Max says:

    Just think about it….the EPA telling Defense and Law Enforcement what to do…

    We could make an (un) reality TV series out of it…”Clash of the Titans Smackdown”….In this episode, the EPA Swat Team vs. DOD Special Forces…

    That should eliminate the (EPA) problem for awhile.

    1. avatar Richard says:

      I’d buy a bag of popcorn to see that one…….

    2. avatar Jus Bill says:

      First dibs on the Fox syndication rights…

  30. avatar TitoFTW says:

    I work within the MRAP program for the USMC. This is false info. We have received no such directive to stop any divestitures or foreign military sales.

  31. avatar FoRealz? says:

    The sheriffs should just build “technicals” like the Somali guys do.

    Would be more in keeping with the third world flavor this country is slowly taking on.

    1. avatar Another Robert says:

      I can only shake my head when I see that mechanical behemoth with “Bastrop County Sheriff” on it. Bloomin’ idiotic.

  32. avatar Richard says:

    It would have been rather amusing if the DoD had sent a Ranger Bn over to the EPA, shut them down and arrested all the upper echelon of the EPA. I would’a just laughed my ass off.

  33. avatar geoffb says:

    I thought a link was asked for and provided it above. Here is the gist of it and it is an agreement that has been in place for 20 years but seemingly forgotten in the rush to up armor SWAT teams.

    [T]wo weeks ago DLA “became aware of” a 20 year old agreement between the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the military’s Tank and Automotive Command (TACOM) which exempt military vehicles from EPA’s emissions standards. It is easy to see why a combat vehicle operator should not have to worry about a smog pump failing, or having to wait on an engine to “regenerate”. However, part of that agreement prohibited the transfer of these vehicles outside the military. As of two weeks ago, DLA has ceased all transfers of vehicles, effective immediately. As of last Friday it was announced that this moratorium is being extended to generators, pumps with motors, and parts for military engines.

    1. avatar Rick says:

      Soo. Is DoD going to have to collect all the vee-hickles and cut them up?

      If so, I can imagine the wailings of various SWAT shops as their new toys are taken away.

      1. avatar Rich Grise says:

        “If so, I can imagine the wailings of various SWAT shops as their new toys are taken away.”

        And the schadenfreude sweeping the Land of the Free!

      2. avatar Illinois_Minion says:

        I would pay to see that happen….

  34. avatar Raul Ybarra says:

    Ok… I’m going to put on my tinfoil hat, just for fun…

    Perhaps this Administration realized that too many of these vehicles would be used against them when SHTF? The EPA is the best way to stop these publicly elected sherifs from getting this equipment. They figured out after Colorado, upstate New York, and the general stand against the Fed that it may not be a good idea to arm your enemy.

    Actually, if the Fed starts making LEO give them back, you’ll know it’s not just fantasy…

    (Ok, now back to the real world…)

    1. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

      Actually, the EPA is on a rule-making bing in the last year, making some NPRM’s that have huge and very wide-ranging consequences. I won’t bore people here with the details, but suffice to say, the EPA has regulatory rule-making powers that exceed even the IRS in their scope and reach.

      The recent push to make all waters on federal lands subject to the Clean Water Act and “waters of the US” is one such NPRM.

      1. avatar Jus Bill says:

        So they WILL need the MRAPs then.

        1. avatar Rich Grise says:

          Maybe the regime will self-destruct from infighting between all the various alphabet-soup agencies. Didn’t the Soviet Union kind of go down in a whimper?

  35. avatar gary says:

    well I guess I have a different spin on all this, it seems as though ALL trucks have been pulled from auction on government liquidation, and it seems to be because of the EPA is raising “pollution concerns”. Perhaps it is more the federal government’s fear of an armed prepared society. In a lot of cases local governments are a lot closer in view to the local population then Washington so what they have could be turned against the big government if things ever go sideways. There were a lot of private citizens buying a lot of government liquidation trucks depending on the situation that could be very uncomfortable to the wack jobs in Washington This is the same government that has tried a bunch of end around ways to take away our liberties, the most obvious one being the attempt to ban ammunition as away to get around gun control.

  36. avatar Dave s says:

    Didnt get your MRAP? No Problem! DHS will grant money you enough tax payer cash so you can go order a brand spanking NEW one that meets all the EPA and crash safety regs! Its only the Peoples money!

    Feel real sorry for the poor underfunded RFDs that only ask for a few materials so they can build up fire appartus w/o breaking their taxpayers!

  37. avatar Michael says:

    Keep them for the next war? No give them away. That way they can buy nice new ones with more armor and more gun ports, its only tax payer money.
    How about selling them surplus to the public, I want one.

  38. avatar Ken says:

    This is no big deal. First, if the Obozo admin wants the LEO’s to have MRAPs, they will get them. One call and its done. It’s not a law, just a EPA rule. It can be changed without congress. Second, a lot of these little agencies getting these things are going to be in for a real shocker when the maintenance bill comes due. Most don’t have big bucks in their budget. My local sheriff has cars that are over ten years old with 200K or more miles. Cries in the newspaper because he does not have the budget to replace them. I have heard one tire on a MRAP cost between 5 to 7K. They cannot be fixed. Even the engine filters cost a small fortune. They are a pig in a poke for locals that cannot print their own money. I am also quite surprised that the feds let these things out to the local popo. They prize control above all else. All these local yokels might be hard to control. After all, they have to live locally, the feds not.

  39. avatar Javenis Mydaus says:

    The Army has enough stored up for the next two wars. That is why they want to give them away. It cost money to keep these and the Army is having it’s purse strings tightened.

    That being said…FUCK THE EPA!!!

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