TTAG’s Robert Farago vs. Gun Victims Action Council’s Elliott Fineman

For this encounter (starts at 49:50), Mr. Fineman of the Gun Victims Action Council promised not to talk over me. Needless to say he did. Also needless to say, Mr. Fineman is divorced from reality. In fact, he wants nothing to do with it. When confronted by facts – such as scientific studies quantifying defensive gun uses – Fineman takes the same tack my second ex does: change the subject. In short, there’s no talking to these people. But it’s worth doing when someone else is listening, in case there’s an open mind available. IMHO.

comments

  1. avatar Nick Leghorn says:

    Why does it always have to be a “council”? Or a “committee”? Or a “drum circle”?

    1. avatar Excedrine says:

      So as to imply that has a sizable following behind it. But, as we all well know by now, it doesn’t and it never did nor ever will.

    2. avatar Hannibal says:

      Usually when some lone nut sends out a manifesto or ‘comminuque’ it’s signed as if it were a ‘committee’ or somesuch. Insecurity, I imagine.

      1. avatar Sherry Mitchell says:

        Off to take Excedrin now as he seriously gave me a headache. While my compassion for him at the loss of his son is heartfelt it does make me wonder what his position would be if someone had been able to stop that murder if they were there carrying. Proves his stance is based on emotion and not reason…very easy to confuse the two.

        1. avatar Great Scot says:

          I just stated as much to my parents, who promptly gave me aspirin. Some amount of bollocks he was spouting. Worst part was, he wouldn’t let poor Robert talk. That’s what gave me a headache. I would really love someone to do a complete debunking of that bullcrap and email it directly to Fineman.

    3. avatar NYC2AZ says:

      Because “progress!”

    4. avatar ThomasR says:

      Freedom is what frightens them. Being an individual frightens them. It’s the immersion in the hive mind, the collective, the common good that gives them temporary relief from their fear of what freedom requires. It requires personal responsibility.

      So they run from the responsibility that freedom entails. And they attack anyone or idea that shows them for the powerless, helpless and dependent overgrown children that they truly are.

    1. avatar Tominator says:

      OMG…no one listens…not even the anti crowd. In fact, his would not ever get ‘press’ except for TTAG.

      I’m not complaining, BTW.

      1. avatar Rusty Shackleford says:

        This is how a fellow gun blogger responded: http://www.ncgunblog.com/2014/04/27/elliot-fineman-wants/

  2. avatar Excedrine says:

    This honestly made me want to vomit.

    I can literally feel The Stupid radiating from him through my laptop, and I even fear I’ve lost a few IQ points listening to it. Only dyed-in-the-wool hoplophobic bigots like Fineman that actually make me feel dumber. There are no words in the English or any other language that can adequately describe the hypocrisy, hubris, ignorance, and stupidity of this man’s position.

    Please, spare yourselves the psychological and intellectual trauma and simply read the caption under the post. It’ll save your sanity. I’ll be busy recovering my lost mojo by doing some of my economics assignments for class come Monday. This dude is just plain un-fuckin’-real.

    You’ve been warned.

    1. Easy there, big fella. You’re absolutely spot on, but he’s not worth the rise in blood pressure or the drop in mojo level.

    2. avatar Jus Bill says:

      I lasted about 15 seconds. He’s using MY air!

    3. avatar ErrantVenture11 says:

      Try some Excedrin for that headache

    4. avatar Michael says:

      So this IDIOT Elliott Fineman would rather a criminal attack someone who can not defend themselves and possibly the end result is that they are murdered. I think he will change his mind when it is happening to him and i hope that their is someone around with a CCP

  3. avatar lowhouse5 says:

    Nice hat.

  4. avatar Kevin says:

    All socialist organizations are by committee or council or the people.

  5. avatar Bernard says:

    Next time you conduct an interview, you should use a studio grade microphone to level the playing field. It was unfair that he had better sound quality.

    1. avatar tjlarson2k says:

      Media spin. I’m pretty sure it’s engineered so anyone calling in, regardless of initial clarity is maxed out at inferior quality and volume for the express purpose to give the auditory advantage to the person whose point they are pushing. Wouldn’t surprise me at all.

  6. avatar Gregolas says:

    Exactly right, RF! You won’t change the mind of the reality impaired, but you will change hearts and mind of those who are on the fence and those who need to know why they believe. Well done!
    Keep up the good work.

  7. avatar 2AYoda says:

    People like this man can’t seem to grasp the concept of what evil is. It will always find a way to create chaos and spread fear. It will unleash its destructive force via whatever medium it can (i.e. fertilizer bombs, bats, knives, hammers, firearms etc). You can not legislate evil away with more laws. You can not fix crazy with nothing more than medication and isolation. The instrument / tool that evil uses to propagate is not the problem. The fact that every single man, woman and child have both good and evil within our hearts, is.
    If we take the time to instill respect for life, work ethic, morals and good strength of character back into our society / humanity in general, this problem will curtail itself in short order. The inherent pitfall with the entire issue, is those that are spoon fed their opinion by the main stream media along with acting purely on their emotional response cannot see the forest through the trees. Logical, rational, well informed and researched solutions are the only framework that will succeed when done in conjunction with a resurgence of a respectful, armed community. When we look at this subject from that standpoint, the fact becomes undeniable. Guns are not the problem. Period.

  8. avatar JR says:

    I’m sorry, Robert, I couldn’t do it. After the last one, just could not subject myself to his special brand of poison again.

    See Exedrine’s comment above.

    (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/05/robert-farago/ttags-robert-farago-vs-gun-victims-action-councils-elliott-fineman/#comment-1747177)

    My sentiments exactly.

  9. avatar SouthernPatriot says:

    Robert, you did a good job in providing evidence and counter-point to many absurd assertions made by Fineman. Change of subject–This is also done by teenagers I know who are caught in a false premise or conjecture. A business owner in Philly who lived above his business with his young son, heard a noise outside his home of someone trying to enter. He went for his gun and returned to find two thugs entering/entered his home. The father warned the home invaders that he had a gun. The two thugs continued to advance toward his son, and the father fired a warning shot. They invaders continued toward his son. He then fired at the home invaders, hitting one who died shortly after exiting the home. The other thug got away. Law enforcement knew these two thugs, with both having a long list of run-ins with the law.

    The local Philly D.A., a Democrat and eager to prosecute was pursuing this thought when he was reminded that Pennsylvania has a version of the Castle Doctrine, which the citizens of Pennsylvania had amended and re-authorized just a few years prior. Even though the D.A. wanted to prosecute, he could not. One of many cases in which a gun helped defend a family from invading attackers.

  10. avatar CA_Chris says:

    As a gun crime victim, I agree with Mr Farago and not this self-appointed spokesman.

  11. avatar Camper says:

    You do great work Robert. However, the one point that is always missing from theses arguments is that the possibility that a would be victim is armed can be enough of a deterrent to lower crime.

    Lowest 5 states for murder in 2012 (all types, not just cherry picking guns) is New Hampshire, Vermont, Iowa, Minnesota, and Utah. From http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state using data tabulated from the FBI crime stats.

    New Hampshire has $10 shall issue CWP with a max 14 day processing time and no restriction on unloaded open carry.

    Vermont is a Constitutional Carry state.

    Iowa is a shall issue state that permits open and concealed carry.

    Minnesota is a shall issue state with a max 30 day processing time that permits open and concealed carry.

    Utah is a shall issue state that has no restriction on open carry without a round chambered and permits loaded open and concealed carry with a CWP, even in K-12 schools.

    I was only looking at murder to counter an argument elsewhere about the Georgia “Guns Everywhere” law. I would imagine the possibility of armed resistance would lower other violent and non-violent crimes as well.

    1. avatar JR says:

      “no restriction on unloaded open carry”

      I’m curious as to what possible good unloaded open carry can do for crime prevention. If the bad guys know the gun has to be unloaded to carry in a certain place, the gun is essentially worthless at that point.

      1. avatar Wolfman Jack says:

        not sure what he’s meaning by that statement. NH RSA 159:4 is only in effect if you wish to carry concealed or carry loaded in a motor vehicle. you get two licences, one stating you are able to carry concealed and one titled as a pistol/revolver license so that you may carry loaded in a vehicle. the reason for the second is due to NH fish and game RSA 207:7 about not being able to carry a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle.

        So if you want to strap the OLE 1911 up in leather and hang it from your belt for all the world to know with a ten round Chip McCormick protruding from the magwell filled to the gills with you load of choice, go for it. LIVE FREE OR DIE

        1. avatar Camper says:

          Yup, that’s exactly what I meant. Again, this was originally written quick and dirty to shut up an anti on another site. I should have known POTG would caught any unclear wording and should have clarified. I’ll go sit in the corner for 5 minutes and think about what I’ve done.

      2. avatar Camper says:

        No restriction on unloaded open carry – you can carry unloaded in your car. You cannot carry loaded in your car without a permit. You can carry loaded out in public. http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XII/159/159-4.htm

        tl;dr Prohibiting carrying loaded in your car is a restriction.

        1. avatar Wolfman Jack says:

          i see what your meaning, ok cool. I now know what you were getting at by that statement. Wasn’t trying to attack you man, by no means. so no need for a timeout:)

        2. avatar Camper says:

          No, we’re good. I didn’t feel attacked in any way.

          Many of the laws we have to dance around on a daily basis are written in a way that that allow room for interpretation. We are the people of the gun, it’s in our best interest to spread The Truth About Guns (see what I did there?) and ensure everyone is on the same page. United we stand.

  12. avatar mrT says:

    Gawd, I expected him to be dense but after listening for a bit, that would give him too much credit.

  13. avatar Jus Bill says:

    Two Questions about the video:

    1. Is that really a USA-shaped pizza under the guns?
    2. Why is Elliot recording from the basement of a Manhattan tenement?

  14. avatar Ralph says:

    I don’t know how you do it, RF. Personally, I’d rather run a marathon in barbed wire underwear than spend two minutes talking to one of those pencil-necked, hoplophobic morons.

    1. avatar JAS says:

      ouch ouch ouch OUCH OUCH OUCH ouch ouch ouch ouch…. That was Ralph going by ROFL

  15. avatar Jake Tallman says:

    Robert, your composure is impeccable. Despite his idiocy and complete refusal to even listen to you, you calmly presented the facts and logic while he droned on and made a fool of himself. Thank you for representing gun owners in such a positive way, and I’m sure any fence-sitters who heard your exchange were swayed quite a bit by your facts and logic and his lack thereof. Keep up the good work.

  16. avatar Jake says:

    Anybody who names his segment “It’s the Guns, Stupid,” with or without the presence of a defective Caps Lock key, does not hold any interest in actual facts or polite conversation.

    They are the true #GunBullies, and their juvenile fascination with something that is considered “taboo” in their minds is telling.

  17. avatar David Glaser says:

    As a Jew I am disgusted by Fineman’s arguments and prejudice against self defense. I am appalled by his closed mindedness.

  18. avatar fuque says:

    How does a meaningful debate even begin when a guy cant even define what a good guy is?.. I believe a san bernedino sheriff Chris dorner turned rogue and kill a few people.. so does he just want cops to be good guys?.. is that his angle?

    1. avatar ThomasR says:

      That is really the difference between a statist and a mature responsible adult; to a statist, everyone is a potential mass murderer and needs to be controlled by the state.

      To that mature responsible adult; they know that most people can be trusted to be law abiding; and the few that can’t is why they carry a gun.

  19. avatar Private Pyle says:

    I will never understand how someone of Jewish descent could be anti-gun. Ignorance and delusion are very powerful.

  20. avatar Coloradan says:

    My wife listened to this with me and found his denial of the right to self defense for woman insulting and sexist. #WarOnWoman

    1. avatar Excedrine says:

      Gun control is just another form of control. It’s never about the guns.

      Gun control itself, historically speaking, has its roots in racism. The first laws passed in the 13 colonies specifically barred slaves and free blacks from owning and carrying guns. The first laws passed after we became a country also targeted blacks and freed slaves.

      Why wouldn’t they apply it to women as well?

      Gun control, even as a concept, is in point of fact sexist, racist, anti-rights, and anti-Humanist. Just on its face. Based on that alone, I have slowly become what some Statists like Fineman would call a “gun absolutionist”. Unless and until a gun control scheme comes along that isn’t any of those nasty, horrible, and rights-destroying things, I won’t stand for any of it.

  21. avatar ErrantVenture11 says:

    I’m going to throw Mr. Fineman a bone, and leave my response in the form of a good old fashioned “compliment sandwich.”

    Mr Fineman did a great job introducing his guest, giving a brief but rather complete bio and letting his listenership know that Mr. Farago, though certainly at polar opposites on the opinion spectrum, is respectable and reasonable.

    Mr. Fineman is not a very good interviewer when it comes to those he disagrees with, often talking directly over them and not allowing the guest to finish a thought or point. He also does poorly in gracefully accepting an opposing point as valid or logical and countering it intelligently. Though I also don’t think he recognizes those valid points at all, due to his extreme bias and an apparent absence of reason

    ……….

    OK, looks like this sandwich is going to be open-faced. Sorry, I tried.

    1. avatar Jus Bill says:

      OK, I’ll supply the other compliment: He stayed awake throughout the interview.

  22. avatar Marty says:

    This is what dementia looks like.

  23. avatar Howdy says:

    Major Reality Distortion Field.

  24. avatar stngray713 says:

    that he completely refuses to believe a woman would be competent enough to defend herself shows what an idiot he really is. he assumes concealed carriers have no training and tries to slip that point in. great job getting him to admit he would rather have the woman be raped for the “good” of society rather than sefend herself. whats up with suddenly being out of time as soon as you have him backed into the corner with a point he cant defend. i think his producer is much smarter than him by knowing when to cut him off.

  25. avatar stngray713 says:

    also just because ther wasnt an arrest doesnt mean no dgu. only like 10% of crimes result in an arrest so does that mean the crime stats are way overhyped becaus the number of arrests dont equal the number of crimes reported?

  26. avatar James1000 says:

    Everything else aside for a moment…early in his segment he refers to a boycott of the state of Georgia because of the recent newly signed pro 2A laws. His boycott demand was to not buy Pepsi products because they are headquartered in Atlanta. A quick google search shows them based in NY. SMH…pretty sure he’s confused them with Coke, who is in fact headquartered in Atlanta. God help these people. Please.

  27. avatar Cubby123 says:

    Best thing Nick said”No use talking to these people”

  28. avatar Cubby123 says:

    Elliot Fineman dumbass of dumbasses.This dumb turd lives in Chicago? Are you serious? And he is Jewish ? What a disgrace to his race!The Jews were anialated after disarmament in Germany and Europe and he thinks unarming the law abiding public is what to do??
    This guy is a prime candidate for the mental institution,HE IS A NUT CASE!!

    1. avatar Great Scot says:

      As an atheist I cannot comment about whether Fineman really is a disgrace to the jewish race, but I would respectfully ask that you keep race/religion out of it. This is the kind of thing people like Fineman would pounce on, but mostly I ask because I really don’t think it is relevant, not to mention perhaps offensive.
      Thank You.

  29. avatar Accur81 says:

    RF, I admire your courage and tenacity. With that being said, its clear that this slow-talking imbecile could care less about your rational arguments. His whole aura disguised epic incompetence and cowardice with feigned thoughtfulness. I couldn’t listen to this imbecile, and could barely hear your audio. As often happens, the antis don’t want a level playing field.

    I liked your response to “I don’t know who the good guy is.” I would have been a lot more mean.

    RF, I give you kudos for your efforts and your patience.

  30. avatar MWorrell says:

    He was wrong on the facts of the first story before you even showed up.

    There was no loophole in the law in the Chicago case. No gun transfers of any kind are legal in Illinois except between verified, current Illinois Firearm Owner ID card holders, and all card holders are subjected to background checks. Any disqualifying violation of the law results in termination of the card. Once the transfer occurs, both parties are required to hold the FOID card info of the other party for 10 years, so that in the event the gun is used in a crime, the transaction can be documented.

  31. avatar Gene says:

    I couln’t find his other shows:

    – It’s the cars, stupid
    – It’s the stairs, stupid
    – It’s the bathtubs and pools, stupid
    – It’s the knives, stupid
    – It’s the doctors and medicines, stupid

  32. avatar JAS says:

    These people are not going to listen, they are not going to let you talk, they are not going to change their minds.

    For them this is all about taking individual rights away from people “for their own good”. Period. It’s not about guns or self defense. This is about their own narrow, fanatical, utopian construct. This is about elitism. This is about “do as I say”. This is all about power and control.

    Forget people like him – a waste of time. The important people to talk to are the ones that go to the voting booths.

    Start your own TTAG Internet radio show. Spread the good word….

  33. avatar Matt G says:

    The man blathers on for minutes on end when a 5-10 word response would have been sufficient. Considering his profession is “talking” it pains me to me to see him go about it so inefficiently. Think next time I’ll just gouge my ears out with an ice pick instead.

  34. avatar Marcus says:

    What a fucktard!! He must live in a bubble….

  35. avatar Great Scot says:

    I was actually beginning to think that Fineman was an okay kinda guy, and was starting to warm to him-but then the debate started. What a frickin’ asshole. I would be willing to forgive him for being… we’ll say confused about guns, but he treated his “Old pal Robert Farago” like shit on his shoe, as if he wasn’t even there.

  36. avatar M J Johnson says:

    I tried to see the entire segment, RF. I really did. It hurt too much. And he calls you a friend???

  37. avatar olegreg says:

    found almost perfect example of what he was asking for with 30 seconds on google. http://www.guns.com/2014/05/09/arizona-woman-attacked-during-home-invasion-fights-back-shoots-burglar-video/

    1. avatar Michael says:

      Unfortunately people will listen to him and his voice will get louder and louder, He does not want to hear the facts of how people are defending themselves for intruders / robbers who will kill them at the drop of a hat.

Write a Comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

button to share on facebook
button to tweet
button to share via email