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Eric from Indy writes:

My wife and I are building a house and we’ve stashed away enough funds to fill said house with brand new furniture. My wife has expensive taste. Notwithstanding, there was a “SUPER BIG CRAZY SALE” going on at the local Rooms Place furniture store in the Castleton area of Indianapolis. We figured, what the hell. Maybe they’d have a deal . . .

So we (the wife, myself, 6-month-old daughter in stroller) walked in and we were immediately stalked by “Sales Manager” Bruce. He’s got some classy tattoos on his hands/knuckles. My wife told him she’s buying 5,000 square feet worth of furniture. His eyes lit up like Christmas tree. Then he told her congratulations, she won an iPod. Cool.

Then I saw this sign on the door:

Courtesy Eric in Indy

That’s when I turned to Bruce and said, “Thanks, but we don’t spend our money at stores that prevent us from defending ourselves.” His jaw dropped. (We were both carrying at the time.) We turned the stroller around and walked out.

Then something struck me as odd. I’m an attorney here in Indiana. Our statues read, “I.C. XX-XX-XX.” So I Googled 430 ILCS 66/65. Yup. A store in Indiana is telling their customers that their sign has the force of law based on an Illinois statute. Brilliant.

I wonder how much commission he lost on the sale.

121 Responses to The Cost of Maintaining a Gun-Free Zone

    • Note that his wife was also carrying. I wonder if the baby in the stroller had a NAA mini-revolver.

      • Maybe the baby was carrying one of those small rifles that Lawrence O’Donnell calls “Child pornography”, when he saw one resting on a baby’s lap. (Now that ‘O’Donderhead’ is one SICK feller…I sure don’t want him hanging around one of our children!!)

  1. Good.

    Forget using the law to force companies to not ban carry . We need to make it clear opposing the RKBA will cost you your profit margin.

  2. @Eric from Indy:

    So, as an attorney, did you write the company a letter telling them about the error? I would love to see the response.

  3. They must really be retords. Posted the sign in the wrong state. Don’t do them a favor and tell them it is not legal. Let the dorks feel protected.

    • I see several stores in NM (most notably certain walmarts) that have signs claiming that carrying on the premises is a class 4 felony. The problem is, that is only true for places that serve alcohol for consumption on premises (e.g.: bars). They printed of the state supplied no guns signs for bars and stuck it in their window without even checking the law. FWIW, unless there is force of law attached, I usually ignore no guns signs. I am not about to inconvenience myself or pay more than I have to simply to make a statement against a toothless show of security theater.

      • I do the same thing at Toys “R” Us here in Texas. They have a boilerplate “No Guns” sign at the entrance but not the legally required signage so I carry anyway. I am not going to keep my daughter away from there because they have a stupid policy but I am also going to make sure she is safe while we are shopping.

        • I’ve noticed a lot of stores that post Non-30.06 signs. I’ll be damned if I ever point it out to them.

      • Same here in Michigan, unless it is a pistol-free zone the act of carrying isn’t illegal, it simply codifies the establishment’s right to ask you to leave if you’re carrying. Failure to comply is trespassing. So I just make sure I keep everything concealed.

        I was in Missouri 3 weeks ago, and it is effectively the same thing, except they are one better: Even the list of pistol-free zones has the caveat that there is no penalty for carrying, only trespassing charges for failure to vacate if requested. So I spent an entire weekend carrying at a so-called “pistol free zone” for a conference.

        • I have no problem with a business posting a sign. That is their right. It is also my right not to spend money in those places, and to make sure that they know the reason for me not spening my money there.

      • You need to report those stores to Walmart Corporate. It is against Walmart Corporate Policy to prohibit the lawful carry of firearms.

        • Actually, I’m fairly certain in Texas at least, posting gun-free signs that claim to have force of law but are non-30.06 signs carry huge per-day fines for businesses.

  4. Our local mall has it posted in non-legal size/language. They asked me to leave on my pointing it out. My company leases spaces in several of the malls they manage. Leases are coming up time to find friendly locations.

  5. So you would spend more money somewhere else that would let you carry even though the place you were at didn’t have to know??? Stupid if you ask me!

    • So, your Constitutional rights are for sale, if the price is right? Now that we have determined what you ARE, the only remaining question is the going rate.

      • See my post above, but in short, (assuming the signs have no weight of law) why inconvenience yourself just to make a largely meaningless statement against a toothless gesture of security theater?

        • Because it’s always better to let them stew in the juice of their own cupidity.

          And if you have more patience than a gerbil and don’t live on the Moon you will find a similar or better sale in a few days anyway.

        • Except that any “no firearms” sign obviously posted at the entrances of an establishment DO carry the weight of law in NC.

          Jon in NC is wrong both legally, and morally. Businesses are private establishments and their requests should be respected… I bet Jon in NC would be more than a little bent out of shape if he told me to disarm, take off my shoes, put out my cigarette, etc before coming into his house and I told him to shove it and entered without complying. Who is he to tell me what I can or can’t do on his property, am I right?

    • To not guve monetary support to those who would like you disarmed.

      Nothing about them knowing or not.

      • I have to agree. Many of us have carried silently for decades, because there was no legal option, no one ever knew it was happening. Now that we have the legal right, I intend to punish anyone who even mentions that he’d like to take it from me. Best opportunity so far was in ’02, buying a new truck for the bride, damn if they didn’t have the correct sign in the correct colors and sizes on the showroom window. I wasn’t even carrying at the time, but pointed out the sign and that I would be buying from across town. And suggested they research how many have purchased a vehicle from them solely because they had that sign, as opposed to the one sale I could personally guarantee they just LOST because of it. Been 12 years, I have never been back to see if the sign was still there. Think I paid $200 more for the truck from the other dealer. With a smile.

    • I, like Eric from Indy, wouldn’t knowingly shop at an anti-gun business. It’s not a matter of stupid or smart or getting the best deal. It’s a matter of principle.

    • How do you know he’s spending more money somewhere else? The writer has principles and sticks to them. Sounds like you don’t, judging by your reaction.

  6. This is why everybody needs to fight against self defense restrictions in Illinois — because stoopid is contagious and can travel across state lines.

  7. They stalk you like wolfs in that store. even after you tell them you just comparing prices. I would not buy any thing from them even if they did not try to disarm me.

  8. In Indiana, there are sure a large amount of locations where you cannot take a firearm. Maybe they should state, you have no personal defense in these places: …………..

    I would have done the same thing. We have open carry in my state and easy CCP which we are working to become even easier.

    • Im trying to think of places in Indiana (only state with a lifetime LTCH that makes no distinction between open or ceoncealed carry and no regulation at all on the carraige of long guns in public) beside the usual sporting events, schools etc. that I can’t carry. Heck even Universities and Colleges are only prohibited carry areas for students and only because the school will kick you out.

  9. Yep, that’s an IL sign all right. Since my CCW license arrived I notice them now.

    There is a lot of cross-pollination of stupid from IL to IN. Witness Shannon R Watts for example. She seems like your typical Lincoln Park white bread feminist class snob, translated to IN by her husband’s wallet.

    • Apparently you underestimate the power and corruption of the Daley-Obama-Emanuel gang that rules Chicago.

  10. I closed my account at my local credit union after they posted No Weapons Allowed signs last year.
    The manager questioned why I was closing, so I told him
    He said he was sorry, that he didn’t agree with the policy, but could do nothing about it.
    I told him to contact me when/ if they changed their policy, because I like the flexibility to retrieve money from multiple locations. In the meantime I feel better that my wife can walk out armed from the lobby of either bank we currently do business with.

    • A local credit union branch used to have a “no guns” sign posted. People complained, and the sign is gone.

  11. They are headquartered in the gun free paradise of IL. That, plus rectal-cranial impaction results in an IL sign in IN.

  12. If these signs don’t have the force of law in your state then ignore them. I always have a smile on my face when I walk into Northern Virginia shopping malls because I am making a mockery of their gun free zone. I bought a Nano for this very reason. I would argue that none of the malls have legally posted anyway. There are only signs at entrances to the common areas. Walk in through a store and there is no signage. I never looked into it but it might that the mall management can only post for the common areas and not for the stores themselves.

    • +1. I usually snicker to myself every time I walk past a no guns signs, then I pat my hip and smugly go about my business.

      On a side note, I went back to my college town recently, and one major store that was no guns when it opened has now removed its no gun signs.

      • You “snicker” and “pat yourself” as you hand your hard-earned money over to statist, anti-Constitutional businesses? Aren’t you a true patriot… SMH

        • “You “smile smugly” and “pat yourself” as you hand your hard-earned money over to statist, anti-Constitutional businesses?”

          No, it was clear enough to me that he walked past the antigun place.

    • At least in TX, a sign has to be posted at EVERY entrance in order for it to be legal. Which, excuse me, makes perfect sense.

      • I think it’s better here Larry, In Washington, where there is no legal restriction of carry outside bars, and the usual places. Ball-parks and ice rinks cannot disarm you according to RCW 9.41. I lived in TX for 15 years and I liked knowing the ONE sign to look for, but living here I don’t have to abide by any of them.

    • Yup. Signs in VA have no force of law. The single most dangerous locale in my city is the mall, which is supposedly “gun free” and patrolled by unarmed security guards in SmartCars. They are about as intimidating as Herve Villachaize. I rarely go there, but when I do, I go with Glock.

  13. I can’t tell if it’s comical or insulting that the anti’s are always misinformed, wrong or idiotically careless in their application of anti methods and means.

    Probably a little both. Far more insulting is that it actually works on occasion.

    Losing my rights is one thing. Losing my rights to a bunch of morons on the short bus takes it to a whole ‘notha level.

  14. This is how change occurs – by hitting their bottom line and letting them know that pandering to Bloomberg is costing them sales and customers.

      • Its a Beretta. they probably borrowed it from Criminal Minds for the photo shoot–almost all the bad guys on Criminal Minds carry the exact same Beretta (except for the guy with the .44 Mag that killed Hochner’s ex), which I find absolutely hysterical, especially since Dr. Reed carries a wide variety of guns, more as a fashion statement I think.

        • Stinkeye’s right, there’s no way to tell a Beretta 92 from a Taurus PT92 unless you read the company name off the gun or (insert joke about Taurus guns’ reliability here).

        • But you most certainly can tell it’s a 92FS and not a PT92; PT92s have straight front straps and all (post 92SB) Beretta 92 models have a flared front strap.

    • I’ve seen No Beretta signs (including the ones here that forbid *open* carry in county government facilities), I’ve seen No Glock signs. I may have seen a few no 1911s signs. I know I’ve see a no snubbies sign (couldn’t tell you brand if my life depended on it; I know zilch about revolvers).

      I’ve NEVER seen a no CZ-75s sign. Bwahahaha!

  15. Well as Jeremy Clarkson once said “I do not think problems can be solved with a ban”. Of course at the time he was talking about hot sauce but then he followed up his statement with “even though I really believe that a bottle of Insanity sauce is more deadly than a machinegun.” The full story is below, but I am going to save that quote.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20100712005750/http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/jeremy_clarkson/article6860067.ece

  16. I’m pleased to report that the first restaurant in Illinois to boast posting “NO GUNS” last July – before the law even took effect – has gone out of business a couple of weeks ago.

    Here’s what you do Eric: Spend your money at a competitor then mail the dumbasses at Room Place a copy of the receipt and tell them they lost the business because of the stupid sign that doesn’t even carry the force of law in Indiana.

    Gun owner boycotts get results. One way or another.

    John

    • According to my wife who was formerly in the food industry, and who is also never wrong, the vast majority of restaurants fail in their first year of operation. I’d like to attribute their anti-American business practice to their failure, but that’s probably not the case, or at lest not the whole story.

      • Keefers has been around for a dozen or so years. Used to be pretty popular but their business has been dwindling for awhile. They’re a steak place, which is a pretty competitive area in Chicago.

        • OIC. I guess for some reason I assumed it was a new trendy place. I guess I should remember what happens when I assume things…

          Still, I won’t mourn the loss of an anti-gun business. No guns = no money as far as I’m concerned. I’ve also noticed that some of the no guns signs have been coming down in my area of Ohio.

      • You are correct, which is why any restaurant who disrespects an entire class of customers is asking to be in that failing majority.

  17. I have only had my CCW for one week, but can’t carry at work since I work at a university. (one day maybe that will change in NC). But outside of work, if I see a No Guns sign, I’ll be sure to complain about the 2nd Amendment Apartheid policy and take my money elsewhere.

  18. Don’t go into stores that have a legally binding no weapons allowed sign, in the spirit of avoiding target rich environments.

  19. Take your business elsewhere. RoomPlace furniture is particle board junk. Get some real furniture that doesn’t turn to dust immediately. From an antique furniture dealer who would love you to carry.

    • Agreed. We are fairly young, so an investment in high quality furniture is almost out of the question, but, if we could outfit a couple guest rooms with something, it might have been worth it.

      Anywho – It all sucked anyway.

  20. Can’t carry where I live, but if I see one of “those” signs, my business immediately goes elsewhere. I applaud you and your wife, Eric, for telling that store manager exactly why you were declining to do business with his store.
    In general, Americans being discriminated against for exercising their rights, their choices in personal security, their religious beliefs, political and social beliefs need to start being more vocal about anything and everything that violates/infringes their personal liberty and rights. There is a trend of allowing the “Thought NAZI’s” and “Political Correctness Bullies” to continually get away with their relentless intimidation unchallenged. There’s no wrong in tolerating beliefs contradictory to your own, but that does not mean you have to privately or publicly approve of those beliefs, nor avoid advocating for what you believe to others. The wrong is in trying to deny the expression of any belief that does not agree with yours. It IS a proverbial two-edged sword and it DOES cut both ways, which is what makes so many people too timid or cowardly to stand-up for what they truly believe, and exactly what the “Thought NAZI’s” and “Political Correctness Bullies” count on to keep you silent and appearing to tacitly approve of their hive-mind control.

  21. I shop in and near Castleton all the time. This is very much the exception. I am keenly on the look out for places that have such signs and I have yet to see one. I will probably have to do a non-trespassing visit on my way home.

    • I never see these signs in Texas, not at any regular public place where a sign would be optional, anyway. You’ll see them as reminders at some statutory gun free zones: schools, bars, pro sports venues, etc. Occasionally you’ll see an illegal one at a local govt. facility, like a library, but a quick email to the City or County gets those pulled down promptly due to preemption.

      You’ll see them sometimes at b2b type facilities; offices, plants, warehouses, and such. But at a regular retail establishment open to the general public? Extremely rare. I can’t even name one such place off the top of my head.

    • I couldn’t pass up the chance. I did a drive-by on my way to work about one hour ago. They definitely have a No Berettas Allowed sign in the window.

    • Which is not only ironic, but funny. You can see Gander’s giant “LARGEST GUN STORE IN INDIANA” sign from The Room Place’s front door.

    • Yes. And it gets worse from there. The iPod had a mini-USB port.

      Discovered that this morning cleaning out the truck. F’ing knock-off.

      • Are you sure it’s a USB port? The newest iPods/iPhones use a connector that looks strikingly similar to the Micro USB standard found in all other phones.

  22. “Zero Down”
    “4-years Interest Free”
    “Save Up to 67%”
    “PLUS another 20%”
    “Free iPod for just announcing your intent to buy something”.

    Nice story, but you weren’t buying anything from that store anyway.

    • Lessee….
      “My wife told him she’s buying 5,000 square feet worth of furniture. His eyes lit up like Christmas tree. Then he told her congratulations, she won an iPod. Cool.”

      followed by

      “That’s when I turned to Bruce and said, ‘Thanks, but we don’t spend our money at stores that prevent us from defending ourselves.’ His jaw dropped.”

      Intent announced by the wife. iPod issued. Intent retracted immediately upon seeing a “no guns” sign.

  23. The no guns allowed signs can be tricky business. In Texas, the law is that you may not legally carry a concealed handgun if the property owner, or someone with apparent authority to speak on the owner’s behalf (like a store manager), advises you personally that guns are banned on that property. That notification can be verbal or written. If written and physically provided to you, as in an employee handbook or rental agreement or even just a “house rules” sheet of paper handed to you, then the form of the notice is irrelevant. So long as the owner’s intent is clear, like “Hey, buddy, no guns allowed in here!”, then the wording is irrelevant, too.

    What’s tricky is what’s called effectice notice. That’s passive, for all to see, applies to everyone, type of notice; which does not involve any personal interaction between you and the owner. That’s where “force of law” comes into play, because what constitutes effective notice is spelled out in that state’s law: exact wording, dimensions of the sign, font size, language(s) required, sign placement, and so forth. If the sign doesn’t comply, then it doesn’t count. Legally, anyway. A cop on the scene can always arrest you and let you tell it to the judge…

    So that’s why this is important. One needs to know what that state’s requirement for effective notice is. Might there not be a specification spelled out in their law, and any random ghostbusters type sign could suffice? Maybe. But keep in mind that even if the sign is illegitimate, engaging in a conversation about it with a manager, who then confirms the owner’s policy, would transform the situation into actual notice and the insufficiency of effective notice becomes moot.

    The law is fun and interesting on T.V. and the Internet, but be very careful out there and don’t over-clever yourself into serious trouble.

  24. Does anyone know if those signs actually carry the weight of the law in Illinois? All the cops I talk to still don’t seem to know.

  25. When you furnish your house, send a copy of the receipt and an explanation of why you spent your money elsewhere to The Room Place (local and corporate).

    They need to know that their stupid feel-good stuff is costing them money.

  26. Since the law was no good in Indiana, and I don’t carry a Berretta .Does not say ‘no guns’ it says no Berretta’s allowed in Illinois,sooo…I guess were good!

    • As an Illinois CCL Instructor, I can tell you that sign bans all firearms, not just Berettas. I think you were being “funny” but I see/hear bad info being passed around all of the time…

  27. Well done Eric from Indy! I admire your principles. I must admit that I carry concealed and ignore any signs that don’t carry the weight of law. If it is a store or company policy then I find somewhere else to spend my money. If it is a place where I’m just passing through and not spending any money then I rely on MY interpretation and understanding of the Constitution and carry on. (Concealed.)

    And many of the replies in this thread are a perfect example of why I don’t really feel any special bond or kinship with another American just because they own a firearm. There are far too many more important things to me than whether we both own and/or carry a gun. Most gun owners I know are morons. Almost all the anti-gunners I know personally are morons. I try not to associate with morons. Owning or carrying a firearm doesn’t buy you any respect or trust from me. It takes a lot more than that.

    Carry on.

  28. I once told my then-GF that I’d never go anywhere that prohibited me from carrying, so she hung a “no guns” sign from her belt.

  29. Not only did Eric vote with his feet but shopping in a gun free zone carries extra risk. Bad people will see it as an easier target, best to avoid be safe not sorry. Fortunately there are MANY furniture stores with hungry sales people since the refund checks are dried up.

    • Yes. Yes, I know. It was an e-mail I shot off off with my phone. I am pretty sure my phone’s e-mail signature reads:

      Regards,
      [NAME]
      ——–
      Sent from a mobile device.
      Please excuse any grammatical errors.

      But….Thanks for pointing that out! Jackass.

  30. Good idea to pass out cards saying why you are walking out the door, because of there stupid signs. Let them count, hmmmm, 68% of my customers told me to go fvck myself. They are spending there $$$ somewhere else. This could catch on.

  31. Good on Eric from Indy.

    I also try to avoid businesses that interfere with 2A rights.

    I remember when payment service Square banned firearm related transactions,I immediately canceled my account. I liked the convenience of paying with my phone, but they aren’t getting any more transaction fees from my purchases.

  32. Nice, good for you and your wife. Anyone can make the choice to walk away from an anti-gun business. Your story is sweeter because they got to WATCH you walk away and they knew exactly why it was happening. Awesome. Up here in Maine, I’m always on the lookout for these kinds of signs. I have yet to see one.

  33. Stores need to be made aware that they are losing business. Anyone who sees a sign like this need to let the Manager know why you won’t be shopping there, not just quietly walk out of the building.

    (Don’t just tell regular store clerks either, they will just go on with their business after you left, WITHOUT bringing up your concern to the manager – it does not matter to them, they don’t get paid to care)

  34. Revo Wireless did the same thing when they opened a bunch of stores in Indianapolis. Only I seem to remember them being Ohio signs.

  35. I carry ‘No Guns – No Money’ cards to distribute to businesses with signage. It explains the whole argument on the back of the card and it’s been pretty effective in getting the signage taken down in the locally owned businesses.

    • “I carry No Guns – No Money’ cards”
      For a second there, I read “signs,” and then I thought, hey, there’s a deterrent! A “no guns – no money” sign. If the crooks bother to read it, they’ll see “no money” and know it’s not worth bothering with, right? 😉

      I still like the “No Guns – defense-free thug protection zone” type signs just to tweak their nose.

  36. Posting a statute for a law from another state fits the “one size fits all” liberal mentality. John Kerry and the liberals in Wash. want the US to submit to the UN’s firearm law that would put under foreign jurisdiction the US citizens’ rights afforded by the 2nd. Amendment. This coming November lets vote the liberal democrats out of office and vote for conservative republicans that can lead this great nation on the right track.

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