TSA checkpoint (courtesy examiner.com)

TTAG reader Pascal writes:

arstechnica.com offers a post on the long painful saga of Malaysian-born college professor Rahinah Ibrahim. In the words of the Judge, the trail itself was a, “Kafkaesque” legal battle. Even AFTER the Judge ordered Ibrahim to be removed from the no fly list, the DHS refused. About one thousand people are in the same situation as Ibrahim, whose saga started with an errant check placed on a form filled out by FBI agent Kevin Kelly. Aside from the successful resolution to this case, the Ibrahim’s saga is hardly atypical. The No-Fly list had grown to . . .

1.1m records with estimate of 21k new per year. Imagine how much it would suck if anyone on the No Fly list was prohibited from purchasing or owning guns. Gun owners would face the same bureaucratic nightmare to get their rights back – even when mistakenly being put into the list.

This is why all gun registries are bad — the government sucks at keeping and maintaining data, and throws due process out the door when you try to correct the mistake. Above all, the Founders believed that too much power in the central government was a bad thing. After seven years, exactly one person gets off the gov’t no-fly list demonstrates the legitimacy of that fear.

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67 Responses to Why Americans on the DHS’ “No-Fly” List Should be Able to Buy Guns

  1. Huh, I wasn’t aware being on the no fly list could prevent somebody from purchasing a firearm. I do understand that Malaysia is hot bed for Islamist activity, however were your from should not have anything to do with it. DHS refusing to remove him could potentially mean there’s something that they are concerned about, it doesn’t even have to be about him it could be they are investigating someone he knows and they could believe he is somehow involved

    • Or it could simply be that the DHS wants to strip people of their rights, and (more importantly) refuses to admit mistakes.

    • “Islamist” is a reprehensible word started by NeoCons, AFIK. Just as a Christian should not be called a “Christianist” or a Jew called a “Jewist”, it is insulting and deceptive to call Muslims “Islamists”.

      • Both “Islamist” and “Christianist” are perfectly valid words for people who advocate for vesting, respectively, Islam or Christianity with exclusive control over civil authority. Technically such people needn’t even be adherents of that religion.

      • While you are absolutely correct that followers of Islam are Muslims and followers of Jesus are Christians, it is possible and permissible, if your intent is to insult or speak in a derogatory manner, to refer to those people as Islamists, Mohammedans, or Christianists. Or as some people still refer to Jews; “Christ-killers.” I could go on with pejoratives, but I think you get the point.

        Just as the Second Amendment provides no limitations on the exercise of our right to keep and bear arms, the First Amendment protects our right to be intentionally offensive in our speech.

        • …it is hilarious that everyone is discussing the semantics of The No-Fly-List…Islamist, Christian…etc…. when we all know that it is The US Government that has been paying all these groups…destroying government across the globe…stomping on our Constitution and Bill of Rights…we also know that the big-budget terror events in the US are all set up by, sponsored by ours and other governments around the world…(911/OK City/WTC Bombing 1/Sandy Hook/Pearl Harbor/Boston Marathon Bombing…etc…etc)

          The bottom line is that anti-constitutional, treasonous, big-bank/business forces have their hands around our constitutional throats and are choking us slowly to death….we’d better figure out how we are going to shut these war-criminals down…and stop arguing about stupid degrees of separation…because if you think the techniques they are using now…will not be used on you in the future…you are an idiot…

          RJ O’Guillory
          Author-
          Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

      • Totally agree with Billy…I think the governing class thought they had come up with a term that was less offensive than calling the Islamic terrorists what they are: Muslims.

        Islamist? A fake word

      • “Islamist” is not a synonym for “Muslim”. Muslim is the adherent of Islam. Islamist is a Muslim who believes that his religion should take over the world by force. All Islamists are Muslims (usually Wahhabi or Salafi), but most Muslims aren’t Islamists.

      • ““Islamist” is a reprehensible word started by NeoCons, AFIK.”

        You don’t know diddly.

        Islamist is the stupid politically correct way of explaining REAL ACTUAL KORAN-FOLLOWING MUSLIMS, not the wishy washy BS types who claim to NOT believe in what the koran DEMANDS OF THEM:

        To kill, convert or rule over all non-muslims.

        And if you don’t get that, you either haven’t read the koran, or you are working for them / are a dupe / their dhimmie.

        (look it up).

        Those we don’t call “islamists”, BTW, have never, NEVER, NEVER marched in a group larger than 10-20 to complain about their compatriots “hijacking” the “religion of peace”.

        You know why?

        BECAUSE THEY AGREE WITH IT.

        Islam has no place in America. Anyone who doesn’t understand that is uneducated or is as big a danger to us as the “islamists”.

        “islam” in arabic means “SUBMISSION”.
        Islam is one of the reasons we have a Second Amendment.

        Don’t understand? Click my handle and watch “Fitna”.

        • Pretty much. Read it for yourself, the msm hasn’t, they just tell a good story.

        • “they just tell a good story.”

          Actually, they read a good script. They have little to no input into either.

        • Islam has just as much place in the USA as Christianity. This is the United Sates of America. The day you forget that all Cultures and Creeds and Religions are welcome here is the day YOU are as big a danger to us as the terrorists. How can you be a supporter of the 2nd Amendment, but not the first?

        • @Shane,

          When a religion is hijacked to the extent that it cannot be distinguished from a violent political movement, but continues to hide behind the supposed “freedom of religion” in order to pursue its political goals, which include murder and enslavement of “infidels”, it no longer can claim the protections of our Constitution.

          By the way, the First Amendment reads: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” But as has been pointed out in the past, the Constitution is a social contract, NOT a suicide pact. No one, under the guise of a religious practice/belief, or for any other motive, has the right to set up any organization that as a matter of policy seeks to deny the rights of others or commit criminal acts up to and including murder against them.

          The First Amendment does not give carte blanche to people, in the name of their religious beliefs and practices, to murder “unbelievers.”

        • Who said the religion was “hijacked”? 97 percent of the references to jihad in the quran are about warfare against unbelievers. Seeing as how the infirm, handicapped, very young, and very old are exempted from participating in jihad, it is a given that the jihad they are exempted from is not the one of inner or personal struggle. The jihad those people are exempted from happens to be the highest calling of that religion. Sounds pretty mainstream to me.

      • i find it both ironic and unfortunate and that my peers on here are (justifiably) critical of our media outlets when it comes to their gross misrepresentation of second amendment rights and firearms, but are more than willing adopt the buzz words and ridiculous notions of these same propaganda machines when it comes to matters pertaining to different religions and cultures.

        it’s disappointing to read all the comments which give favor to or justify the use of these irrational arguments, hate speech and largely baseless stereotypes.

    • What they are concerned about is the precedent that they have to listen to a court. They’ve been telling Congress to F**** off for years now, why not add the Judicial branch too? Its what all the cool kids in the executive branch do.

    • Professor Ibrahim had her name inadvertently placed on the No-Fly list by a mistaken checkmark made by an FBI agent. A plain human error lead to the young woman being denied flights through the US, resulted in her student visa being revoked, and has finally ended after years of battling the courts.

      A few weeks ago I saw a list of things ‘The Gun Industry’ doesn’t want people to know, mostly pointless information meant to stir up fear in ignorant people, and one fact was that people on the No-Fly list can purchase guns. There has been slight movement in Congress to have the thousands of people on the No-Fly list added to the list of people prohibited from purchasing a firearm under the reasoning that ‘if we can’t trust them on a plane, how can we trust them with a gun’.

  2. God, the whole idea of the do-not-fly list is an absolutely perfect example of government incompetence. A supposed counter-terrorism measure that has hassled god only knows how many tens of thousands of people. And it can be defeated by the simple (and incredibly easy) act of flying under a different name than the one you were born with.

    Though frankly, the entire TSA embodies that. Useless, easy to outwit, etc.

  3. Jake, could be.
    William, “Islamist” is not meant as an insult. In fact Islamist has replaced “jihadist” in many circles to describe radical Muslims. I have met and worked with many Muslims who are ver good people and I do not believe all Muslims are terrorists. Also if you are that offended by a word then i don’t know what to say, I did not intent my comment above as “hate speech” as you seem to think believe I did.

    • I stand corrected. It’s as you say. How about the term “Islamite”? That one sounds squirrelly to me. Although, now that I think about it, the term “Israelite” seems legit.

      Anyway, thanks for the correction. My knee shall jerk no more at the word. ;D

        • “Equate Jews to Muslims”? Your reading comprehension leaves a bit to be desired.

          I was talking about WORDS, not people. You DO know the word is not the thing, right?

          For instance, the word “refrigerator” is not good to keep your beer cold.

  4. The concept of an individual who has not passed the bar for probable cause for arrest or search, let alone conviction of a crime, being blanket banned from all air travel without any sort of oversight or appeal flies in the face of our entire judicial system’s foundation, to say nothing of due process or basic civil rights.

  5. The whole reason for “shall not be infringed” was to keep bureaucratic encroachment away from the RKBA. It didn’t work for long. Then again, we even have “hate speech” laws today.

      • Obviously….the government is restricting your liberty “for your own good”. I am quite capable of handling my liberty, I don’t need their help.

        • You can’t call me sunshine…that is “hate speech”. I can take care of that myself too, moonlighter. I don’t need gov’t to protect my virgin ears from big bad awful name calling.

          Maybe you are feeble in mind and weak in body.

  6. Measures that are either secret, or hove lower probative burdens than criminal defense rights in the Bill of rights should NEVER trigger additional bill of rights liberties restrictions.

    This is similar to the problem with temporary restraining orders.’

    Without prejudice to what you or I believe, let’s say there is a consensus for less than normal burdens on no fly, like the established and increasing lower burdens on restraining orders (I happen to agree restraining orders should, as they already are in most jurisdictions, have a low burden than criminal law).

    If that lower probative burden is the case — and it is — than affecting any other bill of rights liberties based on either is extremely ill advised.

    Nothing where you can’t get a jury trial, all due process, and a burden of beyond a reasonable doubt should EVER be used to reduce enumerated rights specified in the Bill of rights

  7. On a side note it would not surprise me if passports will begin to incorporate some sort of biometric elements to ensure you are who you say you are after this whole missing MA plane situation

  8. Cliff please see my comment as to what type of people “Islamist” refer to brother.

    Frankly if I had intended to be offensive I would have used some very different terms. If anybody is so offended by my wording then you can ask admin to remove it. I’m sure they can oblige.

  9. Just to make sure I understand correctly, people placed on the No Fly List, right now, still have their gun rights?

    • For the time being. There have been several proposals to add the no-fly list to the NICS database, so far unsuccessful. A few problems exist with these ideas. First, it’s just wrong to have the no-fly list (or NICS for that matter) at all. Second, if they add the no-fly list to the NICS database they would actually have to publish the list in some form. Currently the only thing known about the list is that it exists and you can be added to it for any or no reason. You can’t find out if you are on it until you try to fly (and even then they won’t admit you are on the list, just that you are prohibited from flying at that time), you can’t find out why you were added and you can’t get removed from the list (unless your name was Ted Kennedy).

  10. Paul T. McCain
    Actually Islamist is a real word in my world and for my job. We were actually told that it was the word we are supposed to use now because blah blah blah something about it being relevant. Most Muslims are good people, the thing that irks me is many good Muslims do nothing to stop those who use their religion to justify acts of violence on innocent people around the globe.

  11. “Why Americans on the DHS’ “No-Fly” List Should be Able to Buy Guns” – because many times that list is wrong.

    • Ding, ding, ding – we have a winner! Imagine if there is a national gun registry? How good do you believe that CT gun registry or any registry going to be? No database is going to be 100% correct and in the case of the no fly zone, even when there is a judge directed correction, DHS refuses to make the change.

      Even something simple like a DMV database can be wrong. I was recently stopped and my DMV info is wrong. I was given a ticket for my car being unregistered although I have proof that it was registered.

      Worse, make some anti- something in charge of any database and once you are on the list, you never get off it even when wrong.

  12. “This is why all gun registries are bad — the government SUCKS. Above all, the Founders believed that too much power in the central government was a bad thing.

    Fixed it for you!!

  13. I remember when Ted Kennedy was on the list–and although he did not find it necessary to sue. it took even him a few months to get off.

    There is too much idiotic bureaucracy in this list. Yes I can understand the need for secrecy, but if you are told that you cannot fly on a US airline, and they won’t tell you why you can’t fly–i.e., offering no reason, valid or otherwise to deny you transit–you are on the list, and refusing to deny or admit that fact just makes it all the more certain. What, DHS thinks that the terrorists are too stooped to figure it out if no one admits it? and doesn’t it think that someone challenging his/her inclusion on the list probably does not belong?
    And the worst part of this is that it fought tooth and nail to prevent this woman from correcting what it ultimately admitted was an error. Why did it fight? So that others won’t even try? That is government without accountability, without due process of law, and I hope Judge Alsup slams the hell out of them on the attorney’s fees motion, because it sure as hell deserves it. And I really hope he uses a multiplier, as allowed in these kinds of cases, given the obvious difficulty faced by Plaintiff’s counsel in even getting to trial

    • And DOJ will throw a million lawyers at the appeal and get the ruling overturned because… TERRORISTS!

  14. One million people on the no fly list. What I don’t understand is the justification for why it exists in the first place when we spend millions of dollars on the TSA and security checks in airports.

  15. I find it hilarious that you idiots have never read the Qur’an yet claim to know what’s inside. Do you also not read books with a black cover or stop reading them upon the discovery that the cover is black? Should I point out that the “miracle” Moses claims to have performed was just low tide or that Jesus did indeed turn water into wine..by pouring wine into the water jugs to clean it. People used to get their drinking water from the same rivers they dumped their shit in. The alcohol prevented disease and illness.

    Googling “terrorism Koran” is not actual research. Why don’t you do actual research instead of pretending to know something.

    • You have no idea of what you are talking about. Wine keeps better than water, but sanitation had nothing to do with it. Jewish sanitary rules showed insight beyond the times they came from. Muhammad on the other hand, drank urine.

      • Millions of people in India (NOT MUSLIMS) drink their own urine every morning. With no deleterious effect whatsoever, but it has to be fresh, because while urine is sterile when it comes out, that doesn’t last long.

        Of course, many health effects are credited to this, but I haven’t done squat actual research on that part.

        And no, wine doesn’t “keep better than water”. Open a bottle of wine, pour a glass, as well as a glass of water, and taste both in a day or two. What you’ll have is vinegar from oxidation. The water will have lost a lot of its dissolved oxygen (not molecularly bonded to hydrogen), but it will be fine to drink. However, it will taste a little flat.

  16. The problem is the “No Fly” list is just a list with no other qualifications. If you have the same name as someone on the list, good luck because it is NOT going to matter if you are 6 months or 96 years old. DHS and TSA (taking sense away) are not known for sensible thinking.

  17. Nathan Piers, a) not all Americans are ignorant pig dogs like you seem to
    Believe, some of us have studied the Quran (as it is more commonly spelled). B) how about you go live in a middle eastern country for a while, take note, those death glares your getting aren’t because you smell bad, there because they hate you.

  18. Nathan, the point is many, as in most Muslims have never read the Koran themselves and have had it read and interpreted to them.

    A case in point is the hijab or head covering. NOWHERE in the Koran does it say women should cover their heads. The only reference to women’s clothing is Sura 24.13 which states that women should cover their chests. Pre Islamic pagan era Arab women would motivate their men to fight by showing their breasts before battle.

    Muslims have it in for us because at one time they were conquering Europe and were source of knowledge on medicine, astronomy, mathematics, and many other sciences. Now they blame us and each other (Arab vs Turk, Sunni vs Shia, Wahabi vs everyone else) about their current state of poverty and helplessness and wonder how this happened, who did it, and why?

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