Gun control and gun rights advocates both focus on fear of criminal predation. The key difference: the firearms freedom fraternity has a better message for the folks. Bad things happen but here’s something effective you can do about it. Carry a gun and protect yourself. The antis’ recommendation: vote for civilian disarmament and hope nothing bad happens. Bit of a no-brainer that. Especially as an estimated one million Americans use a firearm to defend life and limb each each year. Unfortunately, when it comes to messaging, the antis have a crucial advantage . . .

Bad news is more interesting than good news. In the report above, a good samaritan saves a citizen from a pair of purse snatchers, then holds the bad guys for the police. No one was killed or seriously injured. So this story has no “legs.” If the good guy had plugged the bad guys, that would have been a different story. Literally and commercially. But he didn’t so it appears on khou.com, here at TTAG and a few other places, then disappears from view.

Only not from the memory of the woman involved, the man who rescued her, the police who apprehended the criminals, the criminals themselves and those gun owners who understand that a good guy with a gun makes himself, his community and his country a safer place to live. Not safe. Safer. Unlike the delusional antis, most gun owners know that’s as good as it gets.

45 Responses to Defensive Gun Use of the Day: No Shots Fired Edition

  1. I love how the good guy with the gun is black (maybe latin, couldn’t tell) but he wasn’t an old fat white guy.

    • yeah, I am real broke up about Juan’s wife. . . . . or not.

      it is called karma. wait until the “nice” little kid who was turning his life around comes thru Juan’s window . . . .

  2. Risky to be a minority and holding a gun in your hand when the cops show up…surprised he didnt at least get tased. Would have been much better to see him re-holster the gun after he got the criminals spread eagle on the ground. All is well that ends well I suppose.

    • Very cool. I did see that the police made him lay on the ground as well. He’s off to the right from the perps while doing this.

      • That part still bugs me. I hate the way that surviving victims of school shootings are lined up against a wall and shaken down after being marched out with their hands on top of their heads.
        A man was followed to a police station by a jealous fiance of an ex. He shot the enraged aggressor in self defense, locked his gun in the car and went into the police station to report what happened. He was brutally slammed to the ground by four cops even though he was not resisting and very distraught.
        In the above story, no shots were fired and I am sure that the police had most of the story before they responded. In a country when almost everybody can carry a gun, why do the cops feel the need to disarm the good guy? Anyone in that parking lot could have been armed but the police are oblivious to them.
        I had a neighbor follow a strange car through the subdivision that was pulling into several driveways. When they pulled into his driveway, he blocked them in and held them at gun point until the cops arrived. When they got there, the first thing they did was ask for the gun. He said “suppose I give you my gun and these two fellows shoot you and me both”. “I am protecting you as well as me so I’ll be keeping my gun”. Makes sense to me.

        • +1000

          You stated it better than I could have.

          Years back, a sheriff’s deputy was called to an extremely small town in which I was living. Some drug dealers had taken pot shots at the house. It was built around an old one room log cabin and on a hill so no bullets were likely to get through the walls of the main part. Anyway, when I saw the cruiser coming up the main drag, I placed my 1911 on the edge of the porch and backed away from it. When the officer arrived, I quietly told him where my sidearm was. He quietly told me to pick it up because it was just him and I, no radio and no cellphone coverage and a town of drug runners. He said, “You might need to use it.” We both then proceeded to search and secure the area around the house and a radius of a few blocks.

    • Hopefully whoever called the police gave them a description of him and explained what he was doing. Still gotta disarm him and be careful, but a much better situation than just walking up on someone holding a gun on two guys.

      • Yeah, I don’t begrudge the cops that, let’s make sure everybody is safe and go from there. As long as they did not arrest him, it’s all good.

  3. I can’t get the video to play and admittedly don’t know the details, but I seem to always hear that pulling a gun to stop a robbery if your life isn’t in danger is a big no-no. Where is the line here?

    • Your life is in danger to a point sufficient to draw a gun if you are being robbed. Not only might they just kill or seriously injure you with whatever force they are using to rob you, but the fact that you have a gun they might be able to access means that gun is in play anyway.

      Now, there is a question of whether it is prudent to pull a gun while you are being robbed if you think you can just toss them your wallet and end the situation that way, but hopefully someone who carries a gun will have thought of that and be able to make such a decision

      • “Not only might they just kill or seriously injure you with whatever force they are using to rob you,”

        I have read that odds these days are about 50-50 that they injure or kill the victim whether or not they get the wallet. I don’t know where that stat comes from, or if it applies to no-weapon cases like purse snatchings.

        Any idea? Thoughts?

        “but the fact that you have a gun they might be able to access means that gun is in play anyway.”

        And this is an EXCELLENT point. If we carry, any fight we get into is a gunfight. Cops learn this.

        “Now, there is a question of whether it is prudent to pull a gun while you are being robbed if you think you can just toss them your wallet and end the situation that way,”

        See above.

        We never know who the robber is or what is his background or motivations.

        Justin Schneider’s gunfight provides an interesting case study.

        The robber had gotten out on parole a few weeks prior to the night of the robbery. He had been in prison for armed robbery and was convicted on an id by an eye witness.

        At gunpoint, he rounded up Justin and 6 or 7 others into a secluded room and placed them face down on the floor BEFORE even asking for their wallets.

        In post incident discussions, several of Justin’s friends mentioned that they did not think Justin was carrying that night and were making peace with their Creator.

        To an outside observer, this looked like an armed robbery. To the participants, on both sides of the robber’s gun, it was playing like a cold blooded murder.

        Since first reading of Justin’s account, his thoughts as he was being marched into what could have been an execution chamber echo in my head EVERY time I wonder if I should “tool up” for a given outing: “This is why I carry. This is why I carry. This is why I carry.”

        Justin’s account on Ballistic Radio podcast:

        http://ballisticradio.com/2013/11/18/podcast-ballistic-radio-episode-36-november-17-2013/

        Or, if reading a transcript is preferred:

        http://www.dsbscience.com/download/BR20131117_JustinShniedersWasShot.pdf

        • That story was a good read, JR. Thanks for posting.

          I found it extremely interesting that based on the gentlemen’s through and through bullet wounds everyone assume it was FMJ. But, the rounds turned out to be +P Gold Dots.

          Just goes to show, all these people who get all wrapped around the axle about ballistics gel testing and performance are putting too much stock in the results.

          No telling what a bullet is going to do after it hits flesh.

        • “Just goes to show, all these people who get all wrapped around the axle about ballistics gel testing and performance are putting too much stock in the results.

          No telling what a bullet is going to do after it hits flesh.”

          +1,000,000

          I’ll go one step further, too, and say that I believe this is EXTREMELY important to accept and understand. It changes the way you think about training and mental prep if you allow yourself to believe “my ammo may not do what it did in gel.”

    • Where the line is depends on local laws.

      In many places, it’s legal to come to the defense of another just as forcefully as in defense of oneself.

      • Are there really places where this is true?

        We really do have places that have not only a few individuals that believe it, but that it has been institutionalized into law that if someone’s life is threatened, the proper response is to sit back and watch….perhaps watch them die?

        I confess I was a bit puzzled by this question at first. Robbery is a violent crime. People are killed in robberies all the time. Purse snatching itself may not rise to that level.

        Here’s a not bad into to the reality of street crime and some mindset considerations:

        http://www.mediafire.com/download/yj7mxi4awdxqgmw/Street_Robberies_and_You.pdf

      • Ooops, sorry. I meant the converse. Let me restate my question more clearly (and correctly):

        Are there places where it is NOT legal to use deadly force to come to the aid of another who’s life is in imminent danger?

        Are there places where sitting back and watching someone get killed is codified in law as the ‘proper’ response?

        • Most self defense laws in the US, be they broad or restrictive, refer to oneself or others. You’re probably allowed the same “reasonable person” test for others that you are for yourself throughout the US. Ralph probably knows more about this than I do as I only practice law in my free time.

          The rest of the world is a toss up, but it appears that an imminent threat test is pretty standard in international law, and I’m assuming that threat can apply to anyone.

  4. “Juan Williams wife wishes she had a gun.” Well I do have a gun on me when pumping gas, but also in order to not disrupt my schedule for the day, turn off my car, remove the keys, put them in the other pocket that does not have a .38 snub nose revolver residing there. Who pumps gas with keys left in the car?

        • John, Hannibal and anyone else who does not remove the keys from the ignition, or lock the vehicle up when pumping gas–So very foolish of you all. What can you possibly be thinking.

          If something would happen and it was noted the keys were left in the car and the doors unlocked, it would be more like you were aiding and abetting a robbery, or assault. And y’all seem to be brushing it off.

        • Vivian, I wouldn’t go so far as to say aiding and abetting. However, you are correct that it’s foolish and perhaps even somewhat negligent, IMHO. I wasn’t brushing it off so much as self-identifying that I do it and those I know do also. It’s a bad habit.

        • Wow. I don’t lock my truck (although the passenger side is always locked), but I *always* turn off the vehicle, take the keys out and put them in my pocket as I’m getting out. When I’m with my wife, her car unlocks the driver’s side door when it’s turned off, but her door stays locked.

          And I keep my door open, which hinders access to me from the front of the car and lets me get back in quick if I need to. I also look around when I get out and while pumping, avoiding any distractions (although sometimes I’ll clean the windows while it’s pumping). Never really thought about it before, it’s just a habit I have.

        • If there is a good segment on Conservative talk radio, I get out to pump gas and leave the keys in the ignition on accessory and leave the door open so I can hear the show. I carry my gun for security so I can have the freedom to enjoy my life the way I want. I keep my head on a swivel and I would rather be outside the car on my feet than cooped up sitting down with limited visibility.
          I don’t think I am inviting crime. They are already there. People don’t commit crimes because it is easy. They do it because they are bad people. How many times has a lost wallet been returned? There are good people and bad people and opportunity has nothing to do with crime. Criminals make their own opportunity.

    • I don’t take my keys out, I don’t even turn the car off.

      I guess I just don’t make as easy of a target as Mrs Juan Williams does.

    • Both of my cars have the lovely new system where the keys STAY in my pocket even when I’m driving the car, so when I get out to pump gas they are outside the car, meaning the car won’t start. When I get back in, just push the button and go. I think all cars will have that soon.

  5. I hope that Juan Williams’ wife would not decide to shoot someone who’s driving away in her car… great way to get charged with manslaughter, regardless of verdict.

    • Unless the shooter is a cop. Then the chances of real criminal charges goes way down to practically zero.

      However, I wouldn’t tend to shoot if someone was stealing my car unless there were other, more compelling details.

      • I would definitely shoot if someone were in the process of stealing my car. My car always has guns in it, in addition to the ones on my person.

        • That, among a host of other things, would fall under “other, more compelling details.” I don’t fault an individual who defends their vehicle with lethal force. I was merely pointing out that my vehicle alone isn’t worth it to me.

        • And in all likelihood, you would then go to jail, and stay there for a long while.

  6. From the fine article:

    “Only not from the memory of the woman involved, the man who rescued her, the police who apprehended the criminals, the criminals themselves and those gun owners who understand”

    I would like to add to that list the two children.

    THEY will remember this as well…the day some a-hole tried to hurt Mom and a good man helped her out with the right tool for the job.

  7. More like vote for civilian disarmament and that as bad as gommiment treat you, he acts an even bigger bully towards those others.

  8. If TTAG manages to get the full unedited video clips of the incident from either (preferably both) store and cell phone vantage points I would love to see it posted as a new story (otherwise I’ll likely miss it here).

    I would really love to see the entire incident play out, how the concealed carrier got the robbers from the car, how the police reacted, etc, etc….

    • From my view of the video I figured it could easily look like she could not extricate her arm from the bag from the carrier’s point of view, thus leading to the conclusion that she could easily be dragged under or struck by a vehicle and thus maimed or killed.

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