(courtesy Bundy Family Facebook page)

No question: the “standoff” at the Bundy Family Ranch in Nevada is growing more tense with each passing hour, as media and militia pour into the area and the feds tool-up for an old-fashioned confrontation over grazing rights and cattle. It must be said (and was, kinda by our man Hyde earlier): the Bundy family is doing nothing to calm the situation and much to roil it. Earlier today, the Bundy family suggested the feds may have cut cell tower service to disrupt communications amongst their supporters. Now this from The Bundy Ranch’s Facebook page . . .

Ryan Payne one of the Main Militia who has been here protecting Cliven has reported it was HIS brother in law who reported the confiscating of weapons. This has been confirmed by Militia. If this happens to anyone else please call us or put it on blast, if you can get pictures, please do! Thank you for your support everybody!

We’re looking into it. IF – and that’s an all-caps IF – the feds are grabbing guns from Americans intent on defending the Bundys, the stakes in this conflict will be raised to ridiculous heights. As for whether or not the rancher’s beef with the feds over grazing rights is a just cause per se, let’s just say that’s not a hill I’d die on. Let’s hope no one does.

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344 Responses to BREAKING: Unconfirmed Reports of Weapon Confiscation Near Bundy Ranch

  1. Given the clear abuses of power already committed by our Federal government to date, it’s only a matter of time before the Feds screw the pooch Waco style.

    If not at the Bundy Ranch, it’ll be somewhere else.

    • We are working to get first hand confirmation on this claim.
      Also to DEBUNK, I am in contact with someone via cell phone who is at the Bundy ranch. So cell serivce is up, or at least for this persons provider.
      Sheriff Mac has texted back that he has not confirmed of confiscations, however I do not believe he is onsite at this time.
      I was on a call with Ryan Payne last night and we do know that BLM is not alone. Apparently DHS is there as well. They have an Apache helicopter at their staging site a few miles away. That was confirmed with eyes on intel directly from Ryan.
      There is rumor that a few hundred additional DHS are being deployed to the area. Then again at this point it is just RUMOR.
      I am guessing DHS is the one in the sniper positions. That would make sense. We are hearing that BLM has pulled back from the protest areas. Letting them protest in peace as it were.

        • And I thought the use of armored personnel carriers was excessive – an Apache! really!!? Thank God Nevada isn’t a coastal state or there might have been some coastal bombardment before the raid. Whats the range of a ship launched Tomahawk?

      • Ship launched tomahawk? They can launch one from Coronado bay in San Diego, and probably reach the ranch…. Range is around 1000 miles…

      • So you are suggesting that they have a AH-64 apache. Who the only user in the US is the United States Army. Nobody else flies them in the US government. Let’s get some pics of that. Cause that breaks a lot of rules right there. To suggest that the United States military is taking part in this without photo proof makes you guys sound like crazies.

    • Discontinuinng the program would be ridiculous, and that is our prime strike means for naval forces, other than aircraft. Destroyers and cruisers are built with around a hundred vertical launch cells each, and the TLAM is the primary offensive weapon for them. If that program is phased out, it would destroy our offensive strike ability. We can still use aircraft, but the tomahawk is the best means to hit targets in heavily defended areas…

    • Let’s not forget the first to die was a mere baby of less than a year old at Waco. Now we’ll talk Ruby Ridge where the “professional” shooter didn’t realize it was the man’s young daughter and his wife he was shooting at. See the pattern of NO accountability that has festered throughout the federal and local government ? Push back America, about 238 years…

  2. *unconfirmed* is not misinformation when it is stated as unconfirmed. Misinformation would be claiming they did when he didn’t know if they had.

  3. Just what hill is important enough for you to defend? This is how it’s always done. Divide people into groups and attack each group one at a time. The German people didn’t want to die on that hill defending Jews either. You’ve picked your side.

    • Not just a ‘land dispute’, this is Agenda 21! This same type of land grab also happening now in Texas, along the border, and in Colorado as well. This is the beginning of the end, so choose your side now. Millions of people have had more than enough intrusion and government corruption running rampant! If we don’t take our stand, now, together, there wont be anything left to stand for. I stand for the constitution, I stand for Bundy! I will defend that hill!

      • Let’s take a moment to look at what Agenda 21 intends to achieve. It proposes to make about 95% of America inaccessible to the American people, and under UN administration.

        Take it from there and INVESTIGATE.

        • Paul McCain : Don’t just be a smart ass, go on google and check out Agenda 21. It is real, people have been told they can’t replace a dam that washed out, because the water did not belong to them.

        • The government went after an Oregon man for collecting rainwater, saying it didn’t belong to him.

        • That is just crazy. Catch rainwater from your roof or directly into a catch basin or barrel and you have to pay the government for the water? I am used to alot of water where I live, and paying for rain water is so alien to me. We don’t own our own homes any longer since local governments can (and have) declared private homes to be “imminent domain” and the government takes that property and gives it to a developer to build condominiums or a shopping center.

          We need to get back control of our government. I will have a meeting in a few weeks with our mayor and there are some things I want to discuss with him….whew!

      • We own this land. How, pray tell does the government come in and confiscate 600,000 acres of land. I have read that the feds own 80% of Nevada. I have sided with the Bundys and freedom and the majority of people in this nation do.While I live let me have a country. A country that is free and stays out of my life and does not tell where to live, what to eat, who to vote for, who to serve, what God to have. No, I am ever mindful of the movie Braveheart where Mel Gibson told those people when the first battle came and they were mumbling, I didn’t come to di e. He said yes, you may live but when you are old and on your beds you will think I had one chance, one chance for freedom!. God did not make man to llive oppressed by the heavy hand of government but to live free.

        • Conservatives of every stripe had a chance for a different outcome, a less intrusive government, and more than four million of them refused to vote because they didn’t think Mitt Romney was perfect. But every one of those four million seems to have an anti-Obama HO after the election. Figure that one out. It makes me angry when the wild right comes out in force after not voting. I won’t name names but I’ll tell you that two of the most pro-Bundy comment writers (above and below) have repeatedly said in other posts that they didn’t and wouldn’t vote for Romney. I would laugh, but I’m too angry for that. What hypocrites.

        • Romney was against national legislation on health insurance, and thought the constitution left that power to the states. I agree. You apparently don’t. Fine.

        • Romney helped write Obamacare.

          The game is rigged; the Democrats and Republicans will NOT run real candidates.

        • The error is thinking Conservatives are on the side of Liberty. They’re not. They happily trash parts of the Constitution they don’t feel the need to adhere to when its contrary to their agenda. This includes gun rights (relevant to the forum), and while they might not be AS BAD as the socialist dingbats on the left, they can easily fill an Olympic swimming pool with their stupid. The only way to *shrink* Government is to go the Libertarian route. The route that ends subsidies, adheres to the constitution, ends intrusions of privacy, violations of individual liberties, and restores and self-reliant greatness that built America. Conservatives and Liberals are two sides of the same shitty, big government coin. The irony is largely on conservatives who have no problem using massive amounts of government to meddle in marriages, fund a pointless drug war, wasteful and idiotic defense spending, dismantling separation of Church and State and trying to legislate scientific facts in public schools.

        • It is striking, the extent to which the history of the federal government in the west is forgotten by some present day ranchers. I would include the Bundy’s in that group. Many of them picked up their first farm/ranch on federal land, thanks to the Homestead Act. As for the establishment of the federal grazing lease system, the ranchers fairly begged for such a system after the winter of 1886-87. But here, I’ll let someone else recite the history of of “The End of Open Range:”

          “The end of the open range was not brought about by a reduction in land due to crop farming, but by overgrazing. Cattle stocked on the open range created a tragedy of the commons as each rancher sought increased economic benefit by grazing too many animals on public lands that “nobody” owned. However, being a non-native species, the grazing patterns of ever-increasing numbers of cattle slowly reduced the quality of the rangeland, in spite of the simultaneous massive slaughter of American bison that occurred. The winter of 1886-1887 was one of the most severe on record, and livestock that were already stressed by reduced grazing died by the thousands. Many large cattle operations went bankrupt, and others suffered severe financial losses. Thus, after this time, ranchers also began to fence off their land and negotiated individual grazing leases with the American government so that they could keep better control of the pasture land available to their own animals.”

      • The rules about rainwater aren’t some federal plot. They’re based in the water-rights laws of the western states that have been in place for more than 100 years.

        In the west you don’t own the water that falls or flows onto your land. Who ever has the senior water rights owns the water.

        So patch your tinfoil mind-control helmets and find something new to make nonsensical noise about.

        • For the record, I don’t think you’re full of crap; I think you are spreading disinformation.

          The west is dotted with hundreds of thousands of cisterns and other catchments, such as artificial stock ponds. All are as 100% within the law as your statement is 100% disingenuous.

    • Why would anybody want to die in defense of some individual’s tantrum over restrictions imposed on his access to public lands for grazing his private herd? Raising livestock in the desert is stupid. If he wants to lead some kind of modern day Whiskey Rebellion over grazing “rights”, I’ll stick with the tyrannical General George Washington.

      And Agenda 21 is bullshit, too… you know what’s going to depopulate large parts of the American west over the next 40 years? Declining snow mass, drought, and all the water these ranchers and natural gas frac’ers are sucking out of the non-renewable aquifers like the Ogallala. But, of course, that’s all due to the tyranny of conservation, amirite?

      • All future wars will be fought over resources such as water and food. There was\is an idea among guerrillas, engage the enemy when you can win, live to fight another day. Choose your fight carefully patriots, the fight you can win and live to fight another day.

      • I agree with you. I’ve read the court documents for this case and the ranchers are in the wrong, firmly. A lot of their supporters are using this as a mirror to reflect their own causes and neuroses.

        • I am rancher and I think Bundy is an absolute disgrace to our community. Bundy does not have a permit…there are thousands of permit holders across the nation grazing on Federal Land in accordance with the law and paying their dues.. Bundy is stealing from every single person in this country…and to think there are idiots on their way, locked and loaded, to help this clown.

      • The earth changes, all the time, never ending. Water sources dry up, earthquakes and volcanoes sunder or bury cities, this shit happens and has happened since civilization began and is responsible for many an empire’s decline. Sahara has gone from desert to grassland and back again in the span of 200 years every few thousand years. Conservation of resources up to a point is responsible. But starving resources for some JOKE of sustainability is irresponsible. Ya people could die of drought in a decade from the current rate, but when people are dying now because of “conservation” what exactly is the point? The sooner things dry up the sooner people move on. Welcome to nature. Global warming scare tactics bullshit need not apply here in the real world. The Earth will not end up like Venus, not by our doing anyway…

    • So you’re saying any time anyone says they have a grievance against the government we should all be on board with them, regardless of our beliefs, or… hitler?

      • Yes, Hannibal, we should all agree with Brady, a long-known rabidly anti-government loon, who, unlike his neighbors, demands access to the property of the USA with no strings attached.

        And if you do not support him, you are obviously a statist, a gun-grabbing, socialist, Obama-loving demonrat!

        Dontcha know.

        : )

    • As I recall, the United States, including most ranchers, didn’t want to step in on the Jews’ behalf either. It wasn’t until the Germans started in on the French and the British and an American ship was sunk, that the U.S. entered WWII.

        • Dude, I’ve already tolled it three times. Is your browser even refreshing the thread?
          My favorite, obviously, is to use Nazi as a homonym for “not see,” but I suppose that’s really a fake Godwin’s Law invocation…

          That ranchers weren’t too keen, the Western states, to join WWII, is simply a historical truth worth recalling. Lindberg. America Firsters. So much for hills and Jew saving, eh?

      • I don’t know about the rest of that, but I’m pretty sure we entered WWII after the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor and then declared war on the Germans after they declared war on us. France had already fallen and Britian had been fighting for more than two years.

        • A war in Europe is great for ranchers, it pushed crop prices right up (all those Europeans fighting each other on their best farmland, which also happens to be the best tank country, and lots of imports sinking at sea after meeting Mr Submarine)

          Actually joining in with the war, now that’s a different matter…

      • You mean WWI right, minus the Jews anyway. Well US entered WWI after Germany was caught trying to convince Mexico to declare war on the US on behalf of the Central powers. America entered World War 2 after Pearl Harbor… I think you should get a history book out and read it thoroughly, the teacher’s union vomitorium of liberal bullshit aka public schools, clearly have failed you.

  4. Well, here’s an inflammatory statement from a state(ist) official.

    “Clark County Commissioner Tom Collins has caused outrage by remarking that Utahns planning to travel to Nevada to support Cliven Bundy in his standoff against the feds “better have funeral plans”.

    “I See A Bad Moon Rising” is playing in the south west.

  5. Every hill, when any of our sacred rights are at stake, is a hill worth dying on. The hope is that nobody has to in order for We, The People to re-secure it. I’ll be watching this space.

    • Private ranching on public land is a right? Interesting. I suppose you oppose Obamcare, too, because nobody has a right to health care.

      • Actually I oppose Obamacare because it’s a dumbass idea. Here’s why:

        1. 16,000 new IRS agents were hired. A good plan would’ve hired 16,000 new doctors and nurses.
        2. The law is ridiculously complicated – 2500 pages with roughly 15,000 pages of additions.
        3. You can’t keep your current doctor.
        4. You can’t keep your current plan.
        5. It costs more.
        6. It adds additional bureaucracy, and our nation already has too much.
        7. Some are exempted, some pay fines for not purchasing an inferior, overpriced product.
        8. Apparently the idiotic failures (such as the individual mandate) and deadlines can be delayed at the discretion of the president and his cronies with little or no accountability
        9. The proponents of the bill – particularly Obama and the Democratic party – controlled Senate – are not actually using Obamacare.

        We need a market based, patient centric healthcare system where users don’t need to buy more insurance than they need. Also, tort reform to mitigate legal expenses. Lets pay doctors and nurses – the lawyers of this nation (many of whom have gone on to be politicians) are already making too damn much money, and our nation is suffering for it.

        • Nice. I agree. Obamacare forced the cancellation of my nice “Gold Plated” insurance that suited the family just fine. Now we’re in a welfare pool paying for birth control and some other things we don’t need. It’s not insurance. It’s a welfare program. Only “the rich” aren’t paying for it. The general taxpayer is, and those who used to buy their own insurance. I’ve signed up for another policy in Europe, in case I really needs some serious care. Obamacare did nothing to bring down healthcare costs. It was just a ruse to get the the insured to pay for the uninsured without fixing the pharmaceutical or surgical costs in the U.S. I’d rather pay cash in Sweden or Germany for serious health care.

        • Your posting about cancellation of insurance is similar to what my family and I have endured. It was fine for us for 30 years, but had to be canceled so we would pay for things that we will never need. Our co-payments have doubled, our deduction has triples, and our premium is now 50 percent more.

        • I would add:

          10) We already know what government run healthcare in the US looks like. It’s called the VA, and it sux.

      • Seems you are about 150 years from catching up. Do some research on how ranching is really done. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

        • I’ve read whatever I can find on the Johnson County War. I’ve raised animals, Kronjört, but not in the U.S. I know how ranching in the west began. Let’s talk about the WSGA and its New York and Boston financiers. Perfectly on-topic.

      • Actually, you’re right. Nobody has a right to the labor of another individual, even if that labor comes in the form of medical practice.

        Budny’s objection is to the involvement of the federal government, which he contends is not lawful. He pays the county for the grazing rights because that’s the agreement his family made with the county to graze on their land. What he rejects is the federal claim to ownership of that land.

      • Health care is a service provided by someone else. Unless you pay that person in some way for their time, you DO NOT HAVE any right to healthcare.
        Is logic truly so dead, or are you are you truly so lazy as to assume its a right so that you don`t need to earn your way ?

    • You do realize that Bundy is stealing a resource from the American People correct? He needs to get a grazing permit or go buy some private land to ranch on. If We The People let the Bundy’s of the world do whatever the hell they want whats to stop him from grazing cattle in Yellowstone? The National Mall? Hell….lets just let him graze any where he wants…for FREE!!! And Lord forbid we call him out and make him accountable!?

      • Hmmm, cattle grazing on public land. I feel a huge financial loss. Thank God the government stepped in.

        /sarc

        • Well hell…lets just go put cattle in Yellowstone or on the National Mall! Lets have absolutely no regards for law and order. While we are at it lets let Bundy put up a little bunkhouse on top of Mount Rushmore….

          It’s the principle of the matter…something that is lacking in this Country.

        • You should feel it as a financial loss.
          Grazing fees don’t return money to the program and what they can’t make up for in fees is made up by diverting tax dollars to the land management programs.

          “The complex formula used to calculate the BLM and Forest Service fee for grazing on their lands incorporates factors that consider ranchers’ ability to pay; the purpose of the fee is therefore not primarily to recover the agencies’ expenditures or to capture the fair market value of forage. These factors that adjust the fee resulted in a difference of almost $115 million between grazing receipts and agencies’ expenditures on grazing activities in fiscal year 2004. BLM and the Forest Service would have had to charge $7.64 per AUM and $12.26 per AUM, respectively, to recover these expenditures in 2004.”

          http://www.westernwatersheds.org/reports/GAO-grazing-report-2005.pdf
          http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html

        • @Thomas,

          Let me be clear (you still like that phrase, right?): cattle grazing on land where they’ve been grazing for hundred of years. I’m not feeling much loss. Where I am feeling loss:

          1. 17,000,000,000,000 of national debt
          2. Constant attacks on my 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendment rights
          3. About 2500 guns illegally shipped to Mexico by the US government
          4. Paying too much in taxes
          5. Those who are too lazy to work still getting paid
          6. IRS targeting conservative groups
          7. Paying the Federal government to spy on me
          8. Promises of more government accountability unrealized
          9. Kerry signing the US Arms Trade Treaty
          10. The Federal government doing a terrible job of protecting the US – Mexico border
          11. Wasting another $282 billion in “smart gun” tech
          12. Blocking the Keystone pipeline which would lower the cost of US gas and create jobs
          13. A ridiculous and expensive over abundance of Federal SWAT Teams and agencies
          14. Shipping guns to Syrian rebels is ok but mine will be delayed because of a background check issue.

          I could go on but I’ll leave it at that. Let’s just say that the American taxpayer with a triple digit IQ or more has a host of reasons to be suspicious of the whole .gov Federal government compliance machine. If you’re dumb enough to think that the government has your safety and welfare as its top priority you are free (other than paying too much in taxes) to continue living with that delusion.

      • Thomas..try and do some reading. The grazing fees have been paid to the county. Have been for years. The change up is that BLM has decided that they own the land and the money must go to them.Screw previous agreements.

    • What I find odd is this, that ranchers are talking about how they’ve paid, but no one is offering any detail. For example, tonight on “Greta,” Fox News, a Utah rancher was interviewed over the phone. He claimed that ranchers had paid “hundreds of thousands, millions, then had to pay a fee every year, even though they had bought or inherited the grazing rights.”

      That is a completely incoherent statement. What did they “buy”? How can grazing rights on federal land be inherited? Who paid millions and when? I have no idea whether there is or isn’t underlying truth to the claims. I absolutely expect to see some numbers, dates, and documents, before I believe the statement is true. We are not talking ancestral rights (such as Aleut fishing rights) that predated the coming of Europeans. We are talking about people setting up ranches well after the United States became the owner of that land.

      It was, after all, the cavalry and “flying artillery” of the U.S. Army that liberated that land from Mexico, drove Indians off, exterminated the Comanche (among others) and took ownership of the land. In short, the land was won fair and square by conquest, which certainly was how Indians, Spaniards, and every other nation or folk gained title to land back then. (It is still mildly fashionable. Ask Putin or the Chinese.)

      • @Thomas: Doesn’t ANYBODY know anything about ranching in the West? If you’d done any, you might have found that about 700 head of cattle ACTUALLY GRAZE in Yellowstone….

      • Apparently you attended a school that did not teach you much history. There are and have been laws on the books dating back before Nevada was a state, let alone other states. Territorial law and federal law both allowed for free range grazing. As the land became populated in the Westward Expansion, a great many “range wars” were settled by the military and the laws were clarified. Laws are now and have been in place defining what free range is and those ranges can be leased to ranchers for grazing purposes by the local authorities.The Bundy’s have lawfully held those grazing rights since the 1860’s, Their ranch value is based not only on their livestock and privately held lands, but also on those grazing leases.

        So yes, laws have been in place since before the federal government had control of the property in the form of “common law and practices” as well as local and territorial jurisdictions.

        • Texas Dan: I understand how grazing rights work. I know the system of Grazing District councils. I do not understand your apparent assertion that those rights are “owned.” They are leases. The Bundy’s do not have a lease. Yes, grazing rights adjacent to a ranch greatly increase the ranch’s value, especially in remote areas for which cattle raising is the only economic value to the property. That rise in value is contingent, and buyers of ranches understand that. Therefore when shopping for a ranch the estimated value does not take the expected net present value of the current on-lease grazing rights, but a discounted rate to the extent the grazing leases are in any way at risk.

          None of those realities provide ownership rights in the lease. As for the grazing law locally “on the books” before statehood, they did not survive statehood in Nevada. Certainly the state of Nevada is free to permit “open grazing” on land it owns, of course. This is settled law. Why do you think no one understands it, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit, for example?

        • You and others repeatedly assert that if some rancher was permitted, during the territorial period, to graze on land he did not own, then he established a right which endures. That simply isn’t the case. The history of ranching and range wars is not lost in the haze of time gone by. Changes did occur, though. A state (as to its land) or the federal government (for its land) has the right to alter conditions attached to the use of the land. This fact (you so love facts, yes?) is the essence of the phrase “the rancher did not own the land.” Permissive free range, hopefully in cooperation with other neighboring ranchers, provided no ownership or “right,” except in the loose sense that such use was legal that year. To twist it into something more is counter-factual.

        • THERE ARE NO “neighboring ranchers!”
          Can’t you READ? He had 58 neighboring ranchers; HE’S THE LAST ONE.

          Enjoy your $250 steaks.

  6. Saw that coming a mile away. When they can’t win with the illegal position they take, then they take away your guns.

  7. If shots are fired, it won’t matter who fired them. The feds will roll in, eliminate all witnesses and claim the Bundy crowd started it.

    • And it will be true. The Bundy’s could simply stand down and end the whole thing. Instead, they have dreams of martyrdom.

      • Whatever. How about you just snap that slave collar on around your neck and go back to your reality tv.
        Or do you not get breaks on that Federal paycheck as you troll ? The real crime is your lack of critical thinking.

  8. Nevada is an open carry state. Nevada also honors the CCWs from 15 other states. You can also carry a rifle or handgun in national parks in Nevada as long as you are not entering the federal buildings in the parks. I don’t see how anyone’s guns can be confiscated legally. The ACLU needs to be involved, as does the NRA, the GOA and other similar organizations.

    • I still find it sad that we need a third party organization to keep the government, who’s job it is to maintain our rights, from taking our rights.

      • And THAT’s the crux of the problem we have with the government, especially under this current administration, isn’t it?!

  9. I don’t understand your position on this, Robert. Does the Bundy family not have the right to seek public support for their cause?

    • They have a right to instigate rebellion and violence, and the Federal Government has the obligation to put an end to it. In fact, the Federal Government can call up these “well regulated” redneck militias and conscript them into putting down the revolt. (Heads implode)

    • Their “cause”? You mean the theft of resources? Our resources? If people die over this the blood is on Bundy’s hands….

  10. Those of you looking for “confirmed information” in the age of NSA and GCHQ spying will be sorely dissapointed.

    People to this day still can’t concretely determine what happened at Waco, and that was back in 1993! Today, if something pops off at Bundy Ranch, the cover story will hit MSNBC and affiliates before the last casing touches the dirt. The only people who will know the truth will either be dead or bound by a US Government NDA.

    • “can’t concretely determine”? Just about the entire thing is on video! Your discernment is all that is required for the determination.

      • You misunderstand my intent.

        The truth is ,like most things, plain to see. We all can determine that Brian Terry died from a bullet fired from a gun transferred via US Government assistance to his killer. The trick is finding the document which proves it. And that’s just not gonna happen in our current political climate.

        • All right. But who really needs more proof of what happened at Waco? I understand you meant proof that will stand up in court, but let’s face facts. It is never going to happen. There is no level of proof that will convict anyone in the government.

          We have a U.S. Attorney General who claims “no attorney general has ever been treated this way, whine whine.”

          Bullshit. Several U.S. attorneys general have gone to prison, and on much less than he has done. John Mitchell DIED in prison, after serving 19 months of his sentence. (I don’t recall the length of the sentence, though.”

    • It’s not really a cattle dispute – the cattle were merely taken hostage. It’s a LAND dispute.

      • The solar array bit is proposed over twenty-five miles away. The land proposed to provide ecological compensation is not with ten miles of the land the Bundy’s claim use-right to. The facts were completely twisted on the link provided below. But, oddest of all, the solar array bit turns the fight into one against the state of Nevada and the county.

        I didn’t see the Bundy’s up in CT, or CA, or NJ when the gun rights fights were on.

        I was Army. In which branches did each of the Bundy men serve? Who did they support politically in Nevada politics when Reid first rose to power. I know the answer. Do you?

    • The “Feds”…American citizens… are armed because you have armed militia types en route to “help out”. Bundy does not have a permit to graze BLM property. He needs a permit. He is stealing resources from Americans. He needs to take accountability for his actions.

      • You have a problem Thomas, you keep saying BLM property. Please cite the act of congress in which they purchased it from the State of Nevada.

        • In truth, they don’t own it. They only “manage” it, it a very federal way.

  11. “..the Bundy family is doing nothing to calm the situation and much to roil it”

    The Bundys are doing nothing more than reacting to government tyranny. ANY violence that occurs is on the head of the government, not the Bundys.
    If the gov is seizing firearms from people they need to be dealt with. The Feds are going to do nothing more than pinpricks, disruption of supplies, utilities, interference with reinforcements etc. The Bundys should have nipped this one in the bud before the number of gov thugs became too large. One the assets are in place, the gov will roll into the Bundy ranch and destroy everything. When this happens, everyone locally who assisted the BLM and their thugs need to be dealt with. Additionally, BLM people need to have retribution visited on them. The house is indefensible. I hope the Bundys are preparing positions but only the offense will prevail.

      • It’s like they want to give the government a reason to come down hard on them. Make no mistake, Mark is making a terror threat. There is no practical difference between him and some Al Qaeda wacko advocating for the death of The Great Satan.

        • Precisely…. I’m waiting for the kind of mind behind these comments to intentionally start firing on government officials to precipitate a gun battle precisely for the sake of creating martyrs.

    • Mark, Sam Adams, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson…any of them would have had you jailed for such talk, inciting rebellion. I can say that because they each said and did take such actions during their lifetimes.

      I am still waiting to see some documentation of what the rancher paid and when, going back at least forty years, and documentation that they were ever promised eternal grazing rights by the federal government.

      If I wanted sympathetic support, I would at least document the legal basis of my claim well, including any payments made during the elder Bundy’s lifetime, together with copies of contracts.

      • “Mark, Sam Adams, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson…any of them would have had you jailed for such talk, inciting rebellion.”

        And yet they led, fought and won such a rebellion. How strange.

        • And now, WB, you’re starting to understand the historical reality of the War for Independence. It was led mostly be rich and influential men, who, when they feared the British were going to greatly reduce trade freedom, feared the British were going to hand a colonial trading monopoly on many goods to the British East India Company, inspired what they called “the common people” to revolt. They succeeded.

          The war was fought by no more than 3% of the population. It was fought to free the colonies and their landowners and traders from British restrictions. It worked. The system of law resulting was very much British common law, but placed under the restraints of state and then federal written constitutions.

          The Founders were no more inclined to endure rebellions against state or federal law than were the British in the home counties. Why would you think otherwise? When did they ever say otherwise?

          The states individually insisted on the Bill of Rights, realizing that the new government might well turn tyrannical at some point, if only on a local scale, thus the right to keep and bear arms, the right to assemble, and so forth. But Judge Kozinski was right, the RKBA is a “doomsday” provision as a defense against tyranny. It can only be of use on extremely rare occasion, usually only against a local tyranny, and using it is the greatest risk a man is likely to take in his lifetime, for obvious reasons.

        • Then explain “the Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of tyrants.”

          I find you interesting. You’re all over the effing map. No cohesive vision.

        • All over the map? No cohesive vision? I think what you mean is “no vision completely detached from the actual political and legal history of the United States.”

          If that “vision” thing is created in one mind, detached from reality, it is rightly called a delusion.

  12. Bunker HIll was not a hill to die on…until it was. No hill is a hill to die on…until it is. If this is not the hill, if this is not the confrontation, then that one is yet to come and may not be too distant in the future, if we do not have a change in the militaristic and totalitarian tactics of our government and its alphabet agencies.

    May God grant divine protection, Godspeed, grace and peace to the Militia and all other groups traveling to the area to support the rights of the property owners and the rights of us all.

    • No, may God put down the Dumb Ass Rebellion, it’s “as of the sin of witchcraft” you may recall if you read your Bible.

  13. Is the mainstream media covering any of this in much detail? It feels like I should be watching live coverage on the tee vee. I appreciate TTAG staying on top of it. Regardless of how you feel about the Bundys, I can’t help but feel that what’s happening in the Nevada desert may have relevance for the rest of us, too. It’s got a creepy preordained feel to it.

  14. The Bundy Ranch in Nevada needs your help. Those with rooted connections to anon and occupy internet activist groups please make them aware. It is said cell towers have been cut of service. They need some techies on their side. We are all pronouncing for the same sovereign solidarity, done on many fields. The meaning of America: freedom and liberty. Not contemporary colonization and neoliberalism.

    • Pffffft. Anonymous is not your private army, as they say. As if hackers are going to come to the aid of some redneck who refuses to pay his public range fees and threatens violence.

      • Thanks for maintaining the high tone, Whatever. And when a few million inner city folks ran out of unemployment insurance did you call them pathetic N-words or instead advocate for endless unemployment insurance extensions? And when the money center banks became insolvent, did you say “nationalize them and sell off their assets” or did you say “TARP, gotta have TARP, now!”

        Lets agree not to use insulting labels.

      • Whatever, whatever are you doing posting on this blog? You have a pathos which involves an addiction to trolling, I get it. Agent provocateur. So chic, so avant garde. Go away!

      • You like using that word, “redneck”, don’t you? It’s the internet so you can get away with it you racist pig.

  15. First they came for…….. the Indian, and I did not speak out– Because I was not an Indian.

    Then they came for the Confederates, and I did not speak out– Because I was not a Confederate.

    Then they came for the farmers and ranchers, and I did not speak out– Because I was not a farmer nor a rancher.

    Then they came for me–and there was no one left to speak for me.

    Something like that – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_

    • To hell with the Confederates and their “states’ rights” to own slaves. Sherman should have wiped the map clean of them.

      • Duchess County, NY, residents owned slaves in about the same proportion as did several Confederate states at the time the Civil War began, Kentucky being an example.

        Need I remind you, Whatever, that as the Civil War began Fernando Wood, the Mayor of New York City, re-elected in 1860, proposed to city council that NYC secede from the Union, declaring its independence as the nation of “Tri-Insula,” so that it could continue dominating the trade in Southern cotton? Wood and like-minded New Yorkers were called “Copperheads.”

        Hypocrite.

    • First they came for the Vietnam War protesters, and I did nothing because I supported a war against commies

      Then they came for the WTO protesters in Seattle, and I did nothing because I support capitalism and oppose those anarchist hippies

      Then they came for the Iraq War protesters, and I did nothing because we needed to go kill us some ragheads

      Then they came for the Occupy protesters, and I did nothing because I believed the mainstream media narrative that they were thieves and rapists

      Then they came for the wealthy white ranchers who want to graze their cattle on public lands for free and then make money off selling those cattle, and there was nobody to help me.

      • But…but…the grass grows back…as in SO WHAT let the guy graze his damned cattle there. Doesn’t hurt nary a one of you nary one bit. Betcha he pays lots of tax on the income from those cattle sales too yeh? If he was out tear-assin’ around destroying the landscape with ATVs & dumping toxic waste I might care. Let him bring his cattle in & fine his ass if he’s in the wrong. Don’t confiscate his herd & snipe his family. Government should de-escalate this NOW because it’s clear the old rancher won’t. It’s not worth the potential outcome, unless the gov’t seeks to make an example out of the guy to better intimidate the rest of the country. Feudalism used to work a lot like that back in the day.

  16. @ Maineuh. The MSM won’t cover this until the troops roll the tank to the front door. Then the MSM will wave the “Go Fed” flag and tell the sheeple this was all the Bundy’s fault. “For the children, um I mean for the tortoise!”

    • Is Nevada with the Bundy’s? If not, why not?

      I’m still keeping my eye on a pretty little ranch just outside Yellowstone. It isn’t much, 123 acres and a few small buildings, but I see some potential there.

      • You really should Google “Yellowstone Caldera” before pushing the button on a purchase.

        One thing, though. You’ll never feel a thing.

        • Anybody else in the West and much of the Midwest is as fucked if Yellowstone goes as he would be right next to it.

        • A LOT more than that. It would be the ultimate “nuclear winter”. Cold, dark, choking summers. Crop failures on an almost unimaginable scale!

          She’s-a gonna blow. The only question is when.

        • WB, all I can say is “what a way to go!” Frankly, I think Hunter Thompson would have chosen the option. Much better than mere “ashes from a cannon.”

    • Especially the hotels and food vendors. Sadly, they must view this whole debacle as a cash cow much like tourist season at the oceanfront.

      Too bad someone isn’t pulling the valve stems on their cruisers while they’re not watching.

      • Valve stems… start those babys on fire ! See how well they run around the desert with out their wheels.
        Think of it as citizen repos. Tax money paid for it, I think I want to burn my share.

  17. Classic. I turned on MSNBC and then CNN. Both are covering Flight 370 at the moment. And probably for the next several moments.

    • I have the feeling the only networks to cover this are going to be CCTV, Al Jazeera (NOT AJA), RT, NHK and Arirang.

  18. Although the Feds are acting like stormtroopers like I predicted the would…
    I think Roberts point is that the Bundys’ are in a negative position when it comes to the law. They didn;t pay range fees as required, They had their days in court on that matter and lost. They knew seizure was a distinct possibility.
    That said the FEDS response was typical and WRONG.
    When I wrote the article on “Could there be another Waco?” I predicted this although I never dreamed it would be so soon. I also mentioned armed vehicles and helicopters….And I was attacked by some for it.
    There are both on scene or on standby near the Bundy ranch, AH-64 attack helicopters and armored fighting vehicles.
    ANY Federal agency can request the items from the military.

    If there is gunfire the feds will win. Maybe at a cost, but they will win. There is not enough firepower on the Bundy side to stop them.
    The Federal government under Obama is out of control.
    Obama is determined to destroy as much of America as he can before his ass is evicted.

    • DHS has all that hardware and more. Don’t forget the drones. They ARE the Federal Police that Obama wanted, accountable to him alone.

    • The GW Bush administration never offered them relief, BTW.

      I have to laugh. The federal government conquered the land from Mexico. The federal government built the largest reservoir in the U.S., the only thing that made southern Nevada habitable by more than a few souls. The federal government blew our money throwing our taxes at railroad bonds to build the infrastructure needed to make cattle shipment profitable and southern Nevada habitable. But now all I hear is the roar of individualism, “we built this place.” Rubbish. We built the place and made ranching profitable again. It was f’g expensive. Southern Nevada went under again, so we threw money at the military and airfields and highway building, and the mob got the dream of Gambling, and Holding got the idea of Lil’ America truck stops. That’s the story of southern Nevada. It was built on federal tax money.

  19. This is turning into a real breeding ground for every anti-government, right-wing nut in the country and I hate to see TTAG get too caught up in this.

    The claims by the Bundy’s are tenuous, at best, and obviously salacious plays for attention and there are all too many “milita” types out there eager to get into some bloody confrontation with “THE [EVIL] GOVERNMENT.”

    Mr. Bundy, sorry pal, it is 2014, not 1875, and you have no more right to lay claim to PUBLIC land than I do.

    It’s painfully obvious to those who bother actually to look into the facts that this is a right-wing false flag featuring an anti-government rancher, who has asserted that he does not recognize government law, has refused to comply with multiple court orders to get his cattle off of public property. He lost his case, in court, in 1998.

    He has refused to pay grazing fees that EVERY OTHER rancher is and must pay. We are dealing here with a right-wing, anti-government crank, not some kind of patriotic hero.

    Bundy is a nut case, as far as I”m concerned, asserting property rights he does not have, and spouting a whole host of nonsensical claims.

    Like I said, this is a real right-wing loon fest, attracting the conspiracy theorists like moths to a flashlight.

    I think this has absolutely and completely nothing to do with THE TRUTH ABOUT GUNS and I hate to see TTAG get caught up in this total right-wing wacko loon fest this is surely turning into.

    • Paulness, Mr. Bundy has laid no claim to the grazing land. He was using it to graze his cattle, which has always been considered acceptable use.

      The rest of your inflammatory drooling I will leave for someone else.

        • ROFL Pope Paul. For whatever reason I keep having this image of that priest in Caddyshack who gets struck by lightning after the best golf game of his life. Whatever you do don’t diss the Lord on the 18th hole.

        • “doncha know?” is right up there with “’nuff said!” in the repulsive locutions list.

      • Hey, why let easily researched facts get in a way of a good diatribe? Ironic, since he’s complaining without any real facts about people complaining without any real facts. This issue has grown beyond simple grazing fees.

    • The BLM went for the 15 minutes of frame. If they go down the WACO/Ruby Ridge road I don’t think it will turn out well. It won’t turn out how they think this time.

    • Lots of guns in this story. If there’s guns in a story it’s fair game.

      Any further discussion about our editorial choices should be directed at guntruth@me.com, or call me on 401 835 5054.

    • @ Paul T. McCain.

      I completely agree with you Sir. My family and I have a cattle ranch in central NM. We lease some BLM property for our cattle and it makes me very angry that this Bundy idiot has been stealing resources for the better part of two decades. The BLM needs to get all the cows off that property and Bundy needs to charged accordingly.

      • Nice to hear from a *law abiding* citizen in a similar ranching situation. These Bundy people and their supporters seem to not understand that there’s a difference between the “law” in their heads and the law as it exists in the reality of constitutional and case law.

        For example, I’ve seen no shortage of people claiming the government has no constitutional authority to own land. Probably because it’s not specifically listed in any of the ten amendments. The problem is that Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2 of the US Constitution says “The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States….” which gives the BLM its authority.

        Even under the narrowest conception of the Property Clause of the Constitution, the federal government has this authority. The problem is that most people who hide behind the constitution never read any further than the amendments.

        • John,
          Sir I recommend that if TSHTF you say to everyone you meet that you worked at the 7-11 because judges, lawyers, and politicians won’t be popular. j/s

        • “and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings”

          Ok John, were is the “needful buildings” that the land was purchased for?

          This that you posted seems to be even more agains the FED, as if there was no need to have the land then they have no need to buy it, therfor they have no athority over the land.

        • The problum is

          Artivle 4, Section 3, Clause 2

          “all needful Rules and Regulations”

          Is it needful to regulate grazing? Does the “need” justify what is now occuring?

      • So it’s ok for the government to steal a million dollars in cattle? He has over 900 head not counting calves and they chase them with helicopters instead of horses so the little ones are left behind to die. Talkin’ to the wrong cowboy buddy. Where you at? Coming to get me some free cows. Please put the calves closest to the fence by the road because they are the easist to carry…….idiot.

    • “Bundy’s…..salacious plays for attention”

      Oh, hell, Paul, you mean they were using scantily clad honeys to draw attention and I never saw them? RF never featured them? All I’ve seen is folks in work clothes with cowboy hats and a few guns.

    • Mr. McCain,
      With due respect this has everything to do about the 2nd and therefore TTAG blog. As for your quote :
      ” Mr. Bundy, sorry pal, it is 2014, not 1875, and you have no more right to lay claim to PUBLIC land than I do.”

      That’s the dumbest thing on here because that is OUR land. How about this:

      “I’m sorry Mr. McCain you can’t have a new pistol because this is 2014 laws not 1875 laws.”

      You sir need to rethink a few things. I hate to classify people I would rather teach them but you Sir speak like a city boy politician.

      *hint: Nobody believes them unless they are getting something for free.

  20. Is this fighting happening because it is a bad law that the Bundy’s are breaking or are they saying that they are not breaking any law?
    Kind of critical isn’t it?

  21. Thank god for the BLM protecting the desert tortoise from rape and murder by those evil Bundys. If there’s anything I despise, it’s a tortoise rapist. Or something.

    Five years from now, when the desert tortoise is secure, the BLM will parcel out the land to whichever cronies pay them off. It’s the shell game at its best.

    We really do have the best government that money can buy.

    • BLM has been euthanizing the extra turtles cause there’s too many of them now. Can’t let them get above that population line, then the Federal government wouldn’t be able to protect them!

    • Money could buy even better government, but frankly, from big money’s point of view, what would be the point?

      • Roping, who are all these sudden new TTAG commentors? I find it passing strange that whenever there’s a crisis of sufficient interest to the feds…. oh, you know.

        • I’m new. I have watched TTAG for some time for the news. I sent RF the news about the 5.45×39 ammo show. I’m as real as it gets and not some troll from the city I assure you. There are a lot of people who follow the news here and as far as I knew it’s not a club for the “few”. I must say that I have watched this long enough that “we” know who is talking out of their ass.

        • Mr. Burke I didn’t say you did. My Dad taught me to confront problems not go to town and tell everyone else. If you have a “newbie” you have a problem about maybe you should confront them and not “bitch about it at the feed store”. Anyway thanks for the welcome……not.

        • I beg your pardon? I never said anything about, to or about you. And I didn’t get the memo I was doing Welcome Wagon here this week.

          That’s on YOU, Robert!

        • Mr. Burke you mentioned new posters and I called you out on it. I’m a new poster. No disrespect meant but “go lay down”.

          If you have a beef call the sheriff and they should be here in about 2 hours.

        • Thomas and ropingdown are both experienced ranchers, and I know a fair bit about the relevant laws, but keep saying we know nothing. Talking doesn’t change the laws or the court decisions.

        • John, my experience “ranching” was raising a kind of elk in a ca. 210 acre enclosure for ultimate restaurant use, and water is plentiful on that land. I just don’t want my experience over-rated. I haven’t ranched in the west. Just trying to keep things straight. Thanks.

        • William, how much do you know about ranching? Last I heard you lived in an apartment in a city somewhere.

          I’ve never ranched. I started life on a family farm, but that’s a whole other thing.

        • I live in NM for five and one-half years, and I was acquainted with some ranchers. And I spend my time studying water and land rights issues at the library there.

          I don’t believe I claimed to be a rancher, but ranching and land and water rights are written deep in the culture there. 350 years of it.

        • William, how did you find time to study ranching and water rights with devoting 10,000 hours of your life to the kennedy killing? Have you ever had a job or do you just sit and read?

        • It’s not important to me. But you run up and down these threads posting comments thick and fast. Where do you get all that time and aquire all the expertise to do it?

  22. The United States Has Killed At Least 8 Million People
    In The Last 50 Years For The Greedy Capitalistic
    Corporate Profits Controlled By The 1% Oligarchy

    In the last 50 years, the United States has promoted, financed and participated in over 200 incursions and 20 separate wars, killing over 8,000,000 people.

    1952 – 79, 70,000 Iranians killed. ( Ayatollah Khomeini, US public enemy for the 1980s, was on the CIA payroll while in exile in Paris in 1970s, as were Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden at different times and in different places. )

    1954 – 120,000 Guatemalans killed

    1954 – 1975, 4,000,000 Vietnamese and Cambodians killed.

    1965 – 3,000 Dominican Republicans killed

    1965 – 800,000 Indonesians killed

    1973 – 30,000 Chileans killed

    1975 – 250,000 East Timorese killed

    1970s – 1,000,000 Angolans killed

    1984 – 30,000 Nicaraguans killed

    1980s – 80,000 El Salvadoreans killed

    1989 – 8,000 Panamanians killed in an attempt to capture George H. Bush’s CIA partner now turned enemy, Manuel Noriega,

    1980s – over 700,000 Libyans, Grenadians, Somalians, Haitians, Afghanistanis, Sudanese, Brazilians, Argentineans and Yugoslavians killed,

    1991 – over 1,000,000 Iraqis killed, including over 500,000 children — about which Madeline Albright ( then, Secretary of State ) said “their deaths are worth the cost”. While George W. Bush owns over 80% of the oil wells in Kuwait, trouble will continue there.

    ( Source: Philip Bradbury, Insight Magazine, November 2001 )

    View the 200+ Incursions by the United States since WWII
    http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/index.html#post

    SOME HISTORICAL EXAMPLES OF US INVOLVEMENT IN DIRTY WARS

    Over the years, the US government has supported coups that brought a number of repressive and brutal regimes to power, as well as the dirty wars which followed. Chile, Djakarta, El Salvador, Iran – the list goes on. In many cases military regimes replaced democratically elected leaders, and the killing sprees which followed were justified by the US government as necessary to wipe out communism–while being quietly covered up. The following links are meant to provide an introduction to the many notorious incidents that occurred from the 60’s to the 80’s. This list is by no means exhaustive, but it should begin to shed some light on the long history of questionable US foreign policies.

    A CIA-backed coup and massacre in Indonesia in the 1960’s may have taken the lives of up to a million people. http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/54b/032.html

    Thousands of declassified CIA documents reveal that the CIA aided in the overthrow of democratically elected Chilean President Salvador Allende in the 70’s, thus putting Augusto Pinochet into power. You may have heard Pinochet’s name before: his infamously brutal regime saw thousands killed, tortured, and “disappeared.” http://9-11peace.org/r.php3?r=194

    Henry Kissinger played a key role in the overthrow of Allende. This article explains his involvement (which he denies in his memoirs), and details the many instances of direct US and CIA involvement in the situation, such as setting up a fascist organization run by a former PR person for the Ford Motor Company. http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/oct1998/kis-o21.shtml This isn’t even counting the genocide of the native Americans, prohibition; whiskey poisonings. This counting in the depression our veterans were having a peaceful demonstration and the president called out the national guards and killed our own veterans for trying to get their pension early during the depression to help their starving families, I haven begun to discuss the Waco disaster, and Ruby Ridge killings. I wont talk about the Japanese concentration camps; we had on our own America soil during ww2,we rounded up Japanese born American citizen and put them in a concentration camp. Our government has always sided with big corporations from 1900 to 1950,and still do. They backed the Ford companies, steel mills, and the railroads companies and stole million and millions of acres of land by defaulting on Native American treaty. As I wrote at the beginning, It is estimated that our government is responsible for 8 millions deaths. Does that sound like a government you can trust? You want to give up your second amendment now.?

    • Well I think I’m confused about the purpose of the site: Is it about interesting guns and gun rights, or about the evil of U.S. foreign policy in stopping the Japanese from building a Chinese Mainland empire, stopping the Germans from building a fortress Europe under Nazi rule?

      In the middle of a discussion about the pros and cons of grazing fees and land management, people start chiming in about U.S. foreign policy? They’d be happier if Nevada were still part of Mexico?

      I confess, that turn of the discussion just befuddles me. Huh?

  23. I wasn’t aware of the DHS having an apache equipped aviation unit. Which would point to US Army assets and their use would be a violation of the Posse Comitatus act.

  24. Robert, kudos for mentioning “just cause.” The one thing that the Founders did was go to extraordinary efforts to demonstrate the justness of their cause prior their responding to the violence of the Crown. In this case, what little we hear of this mess puts some doubt in mind that all hands might have some dirt on them in this. I.e. an old-fashion land feud and it seems to me that both sides are trying to goad the other into firing first in order to justify what they really want to do.

    The most concerning point of this for me is that there are so many in America that have had enough of the abuses of the federal government that this could end up being a Ferdinand moment or worse, our Reichstag fire for which many are fearing Obama is looking. I think too many in DC are so out of touch that they truly do not comprehend the degree of rage that is seething under the thin veneer of calm. Nor do they realize just how widespread that anger is.

    Having dealt with both Europe and academia for many years, there is a fundamental misunderstanding that I’ve seen of the American people that both share. They judge us by the same philosophical standards that they apply to rank-and-file European citizens. That is a fatal mistake. Americans are not used to accepting serfdom or ruling class authority. It is something we came here historically to escape and was largely bred out of our psyche. They understand popular sovereignty but not individual sovereignty the way we Americans do. While I know progressives have been trying to undermine our education system to reshape the mindset of future citizenry, I still believe they have couple generations to go before they succeed. This is one of the reasons for such a push for amnesty. It weakens that basic American culture that is such a threat.

    That “basic American culture” is the key point here. In spite of their passionate disagreement in many areas, the American conservative and the American liberal have far more in common than either realize. Much more than liberals have in common with progressives in spite of the fact that the latter have often seduced the former. To many Americans of both parties still believe in the Constitution. It’s a belief that crosses party lines, religious lines and even ethnic lines.

    Sooner or later, there will be an awakening. At least there will be if America still deserves to be here. I am an optimist. The truth is, our political mess is being resolved along the tools the Founders gave us. I think the matter will be resolved with liberty on top. What I don’t know is whether that victory will be through the First or the Second Amendment. And that is what scares me. The longer it takes for people to wake up the further the first option will slip from our grasp.

    With all that said, I’m just not sure that this is the event for which blood should be shed. (And my apologies for the short novel. Sometimes the words just flow out… I’ll go take some journalistic Kaopectate.)

    • Well said, and entirely pertinent.

      The only point I’d like to make expands a little on “I think too many in DC are so out of touch..”. There is one reason that those in DC are out of touch. They have sold themselves, whether for money or power or both. The elected and their pet lobbyists and appointees are the new aristocracy in America. They do not represent the people, their actions show that they answer only their overlords and their paymasters. They work only to further their own selfish interests. There have been no real statesmen elected since the Eisenhower Administration.

      This Fall, for our own sake and the sake of future generations, we need to begin to get America back. Vote the bastards out!
      [/rant]

      • They’ll run two bastards against one another. The game is rigged from top to bottom. Not saying it’s hopelessly rigged, just thoroughly rigged. Voting is the final step in un-rigging the game. We must devise the rest of the steps.

      • Approximately none of the American aristocracy work in Washington. The occasional Rockefeller strolls through for awhile, but the the politicians are not aristocracy. They are Gentry. They serve the billionaires, the truly rich, you know, the folks who can afford to buy politicians and lobbyists.

        I can’t believe the lack of sophistication. Why do you think the agencies, legislature, and White House are all in one little zone? It’s like a mall, get it? A Galleria of talent for sale. A billionaire really doesn’t want to have to park his jet at endless little political strip malls. It’s true. U.S. education needs improvement. Quick.

        • WB, you clearly haven’t spent much time around a billionaire. If you think it’s difficult preventing the government and hangers-on from fleecing you for thousands, think how much attention has to into keeping a billion out of someone else’s hands.

        • Thank god, I have not spend any. And stop pretending billionaires work by themselves. They have employees to do the work.

  25. It still just looks like Bundy is running a marketing campaign and playing the patriotism card (which many seem to be picking up). Did Bundy get a raw deal? Certainly, and will continue to do so, it seems. But he is far from having the moral high-ground. IF! its this important for Patriotism and Federalism why isnt Nevada fighting the Feds to get this land back under state control? Bundy has admitted he owes money for his use of the land, his real beef seems to be how much and who he actually owes it to.

    • BDub, bingo…as you can see from the comments pouring in to TTAG this is an issue the right-wing fanatics have been looking for, any excuse to launch into yet another ant-government tirade and indulge in their right-wing conspiracy theories.

      Anyone who spends even a little time looking into Mr. Bundy and his claims and his behaviors for the past few decades will quickly learn this is not just about a poor rancher being mistreated for the sake of turtles.

      • You may change your tune when your house is condemned for a new landfill and you have to be happy with the $1,000 you get for it.

        • When that happens let’s talk about it. That’s not even close to what is going on here, despite what Bundy would like everyone to assume.

        • Let’s get this straight, Jus Bill. The Bundy ranch is worth a bit more than Paul’s house. If the Bundy’s have an actual property-right claim to graze on federal land, the value goes up 30-50% based on the rental value equivalent at current interest rates.

          It’s about the money. I’d gladly pay 200,000 for their ranch without the rights, cash, tomorrow. If they have a legally established and transferable right to graze 600 cattle on adjacent land, I’ll offer 300K. Maybe more. “Call me.” I’m sure I’ll be outbid, but that’s business. I’ll do what so many neighbors do, bring in some Mexican labor and go to Vegas on Saturday. People will scream “It’s worth more than that!” Fine. I don’t have to offer more just to make a point.

      • You like using that word, “rightwing”, don’t you. Quit watching MSNBC you douche and get out a little more you racist pig. You don’t even own a gun. You are a troll.

    • The land can’t be gotten “buck under the state’s control” because it was never under the state’s control.

      • Uh, it actually was. They had to pay the federal government in land to join the union, but the land originally belonged to the states.

        • “Uh” no Dev. The land belonged to the federal government before there was a Nevada. But wait, there’s more. The only reason there is a Nevada is because the feds didn’t want a huge Utah back in the silver mining days. The territory was a federal play, staffed with federal officials to run the territory, which the feds had already owned for twelve years before statehood.

          Damn. If only Mark Twain was still alive and in Silver City, and could just drop over and cover this thing…..

  26. And …. ding, ding, ding … we have a winner!

    Godwin’s law has been tolled!

    “this could end up being a Ferdinand moment or worse, our Reichstag fire for which many are fearing Obama is looking”

  27. this is just more proof to me that the s–t is fixing to hit the fan, all over the country…we are headed for another civil war,then when we become divided amongst ourselves and are vulnerable, thats when russia, or china, are going to be able to invade us and then we will be on our way to ww3…just my opinion…everyone has one…

  28. What were the changes to his contract, back in the early ’90’s or whenever, that made him refuse the new contract and stop paying his range fees?

    • As I understand the issue, the BLM stopped using his money for the purpose intended, namely, ensuring that there would be water and food to graze his cattle on.

      • Really? It was the BLM’s duty to bring out hay bales and make sure the drinkers are working? As a rancher I can tell you that land looks waaaaaaaaaaaaay over grazed. I doubt Bundy had a range management plan in place. They need to get that freeloader off of OUR LAND and give it a few years to lie fallow.

    • It is a bit unclear why he stopped paying. In his court case he claimed that the federal government did not actually own the land, under his own theories of law and government which few agree with.

      It also seems that what bothered him most was a limit to his grazing of 150 head of cattle. I can’t and won’t speak to whether that is the amount the land can bear.

  29. For all the people screaming about a violation of the Constitution…chew on this.

    Bundy is grazing his cattle on land owned by the United States of America. This is not Bundy’s land.

    Bundy has claimed that “our Constitution didn’t provide for anything like the federal government owning this land.”

    He’s wrong.

    The Constitution provides that “[t]he Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States.”

    Sorry, Bundy, if you want to be an American you have to obey American laws.

    • Your Chinness: It is PUBLIC land, and the doctrine of the commons has ALWAYS said that he may graze his cattle upon said land. Either you zero knowledge of the concept of grazing rights, or you are being disingenuous in your playing out of your “I Heart Feds” card.

      • It’s public land, not his private land. If he wants to use if for whatever he wants he needs to reimburse the commons. If he doesn’t want to pay and still wants to use if unfettered he needs to buy some private land.

        The “my ancestors did it this way!” is crap. Let’s seize his ranch and give it to a Native American tribe.

    • “Bundy is grazing his cattle on land owned by the United States of America. This is not Bundy’s land.”

      This is the only thing that really matters here. If he doesn’t own it, he can get his cattle the fuck off it. Simply put, it belongs to everyone, not just him. Because it belongs to everyone the feds are going to manage it so EVERYONE can enjoy it or use it to their need, not just one self-aggrandizing moron.

  30. Breaking news(well an update)…Just saw CBS NEWS report on evening news. It’s already getting much worse. BLM thugs tasering supporters. BTW PTM maybe I was wrong defending you. Your comments sound suspiciously like MDA or Bloomberg. Right-Wing gun nuts? Really? Burke is right about this one.

    • Funny, you are the one who said, “right-wing *gun nuts*” not me.

      I referred to the right-wing nuts, loons, out there who are rushing into this like moths to a flame, because this feeds their anti-government fanaticism.

      We’ve even had one chap toll Godwin’s law.

      • Paul, all your government loving comments on this site remind me of this quote of Samuel Adams –

        “If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”

        • Mistake me not for a defender of Paul. I’m like Switzerland, “neutral, but heavily armed.”

          That aside, Samuel Adams was a wonderful orator. That is why he was a political success. He did neglect his wealth a bit, unlike John Hancock. However, after the founding of the republic, and in the face of Shay’s Rebellion in Massachusetts, here’s a highly-relevant brief on Samuel Adams:

          “Samuel Adams claimed that foreigners (“British emissaries”) were instigating treason among the commoners, and he helped draw up a Riot Act, and a resolution suspending habeas corpus in order to permit the authorities to keep people in jail without trial. Adams even proposed a new legal distinction: that rebellion in a republic, unlike in a monarchy, should be punished by execution.” (excerpted from “Shay’s Rebellion,” Wikipedia.

  31. “It must be said (and was, kinda by our man Hyde earlier): the Bundy family is doing nothing to calm the situation and much to roil it.”

    I know how the Bundy family could “calm the situation”. Shackle their own hands yourself and walk into the Fed’s cage!

    • How about they get their cows off OUR LAND. They don’t have a grazing permit and have had the better part of a decade to remove their cattle. If people die it will be the Bundy’s that have blood on the their hands. The law is the law…as a rancher their are a lot of us that pay for our grazing fees, work to manage our cattle herds to not over tax the land…create habitat for native wildlife and foster a good realtionship with the BLM, NRCS, Forest Service etc. Bundy is a disgrace to the ranching community.

    • Uh they’re not getting their house raided, they’re getting their cattle removed from land that is not their private property after being warned numerous times.

      • And if you read the court order, they had 45 days to remove the cows themselves, and that was in July of last year. The feds have given them plenty of time and more.

  32. I hate to say it, but, if the Feds are confiscating firearms from militia, then the militia are not as committed to the cause as they proclaim, unless they are setting the Feds up for a Lexington & Concord PR moment.

  33. You guys keep ignoring what I think speaks volumes about this situation. There used to be 52 ranchers down there. Now there is one. For all of you defending the government, explain it.

        • As a rancher I can tell you it is a changing economy. Gone are the days when you could live off the land…especially in the high plains/high desert…especially during this drought. To be a successful rancher you need a diversified portfolio. My family ranches…we also have a farm that supports the cattle during the winter. We also have a brilliant accountant and we all “work in town”. Bundy is stealing resources from You and I…but thanks for playing!!!

        • Thomas: “Bundy is stealing resources from You and I”

          Really? And which resources are those? I’m not getting a damned thing out of that land, Bundy or no Bundy. Are you? Seems to me the Bundy family is putting the land to good use. Good for them.

          Seriously, cut the BS. The only people Bundy is “stealing” from are government “officials” and bureaucrats who want to line their own pockets by leasing the land off to foreign governments and Big Business. You think they’re going to send you or me a piece of the $1.27 million shale fracking deal? http://www.naturalnews.com/044670_BLM_lies_fracking_leases_Bundy_ranch.html

          How about this one: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/09/04/Harry-Reid-s-Son-Representing-Chinese-Solar-Panel-Plant-In-5-Billion-Nevada-Deal Have you received your cut of the $4.5 million yet? I’m still waiting for my check, but I’m sure Rory Reid and his pals spent it long ago.

          If you want to make the argument that the federal government has some claim to the land, that’s one thing. But don’t give me this BS that folks like Bundy are somehow stealing from me or any other common person by using “federal land” that doesn’t belong to him. This isn’t Bundy vs. the People. This Bundy vs. federal bureaucracy and special interest.

        • Thank you for your reasoned and factual report. Rory Reid and his dad are working hard to gain more lucrative deals for themselves, aren’t they?

    • It’s called drought. No rain = no grass. No grass…the BLM will not issue permits. The BLM land that Bundy is trespassing on looks extremely overgrazed. They need to get those cows off…

  34. “As for whether or not the rancher’s beef with the feds over grazing rights is a just cause per se, let’s just say that’s not a hill I’d die on. Let’s hope no one does.”

    I agree but it’s scary how many people seem to want to see some dying on the hill… while safely behind a keyboard.

  35. Lot of pro-Gov trolls on here. For which alphabet agency do you work? Or are you displaying ignorance, stupidity and spitefulness of your own free will?

    • I have a legal education and understand administrative law, real estate law, and constitutional law. I wish I got paid for this. If you’re going to ignore anyone who disagrees with you and dismiss them as paid trolls, don’t expect to have a lot of people on your side when you start the ill-fated brushfire rebellion you so desperately want.

  36. Ok, I have done my homework. Bundy got adequate due process. He lost. Due process doesn’t guarantee that you win. Are the Feds heavy handed? Yes, but I have to say the law is on the government’s side. Bundy is manipulating the patriot movement. They shouldn’t take the bait.

      • Time again to remind the usual suspects that the Constitution is not a [faux] Libertarian document. It creates a limited but powerful central government which is why a Bill of Rights was included. The government under the Articles of Confederation was a Libertarian document. It also didn’t work. In terms that the said usual suspects use the Constitution is a “statist” document. Republics kind of work that way.

  37. I heard two responses that did not answer the question, one was “welcome to the 21st century” and the other was “gone are the days that one can survive off the land.” Neither of those two explanations which may explain a general trend explain what is happening on the virgin river in southern Nevada. Even if everything had gone to hell it makes no sense that there was once 52 ranchers and now there is one. And now he is going to go as well. (with six guns blazing we will see)

    • The reason are a bit complicated but poor management, economies of scale and random weather events have lot to do with it. My grandfather was a farmer in Saskatchewan. Shortly before harvest time in 1927 an isolated hail storm destroyed his crop. Without a crop he couldn’t pay the bank and he lost the farm. No government conspiracy or evil banker caused his demise as a farmer, Mother nature did. Most of grew up in the city and don’t know squat about agriculture. I am fortunately enough to have been one generation removed from the farm I am went to school in the middle of Illinois farm country so I have some understanding of the farming/ranching culture and environment.

      • I am not trying to be stubborn, but I am also (like most North Americans) one generation removed from farming and ranching. I still have cousins who wheat farm. That being said no one has explained how 52 can go to 1. To me that shows signs of something else at work but perhaps I am wrong. A man would like to know….

        • I, too, think it is an interesting question. I’m sure there is an answer. I think the people in the neighborhood supporting the Bundy’s know the answer. It would be nice if one of them showed up here to explain. I’ve examined the land through Google Earth’s photos. It looks very arid. Decent jobs are a good long commute away. Marginal ranching often loses the next generation due to the lure of more secure jobs, dislike of isolation, and, lo, siblings that don’t get along so well splitting work and earnings. Still, I’d like to hear the actual answer.

  38. After all I’ve read, I’ve come to the conclusion that both sides are wrong.

    Bundy is wrong for grazing his land on BLM land. Of all the laws to make hay (pun intended) over, he chooses not to pay the small fee per cow/calf pair? Really? I understand not liking yet another Dept of XYZ type organization. But, contrary to popular belief, there are SOME that really are needed. BLM is one of them. If everyone was allowed to graze the land, then I have a feeling it would be picked pretty damn clean. If Bundy OWNED the land and it was taken from him at some point, then I could see his arguement. But he simply never owned the land. That’s been pretty well established by sources I’ve read. Therefore, he’s wrong for threatening violence over a point he is simply in the wrong for.

    BLM is wrong for coming at Bundy with threat of violence. Freeze his assets if you want to punish him. Monetarily punish him somehow. But you just prop yourself up as another Jack Booted Thug organization when you roll in heavy against a crotchety old rancher.

    I’m sure there’s more to both sides that aren’t being reported. Bottom line, Bundy should have worked with BLM and paid the stupid grazing fee. BLM should pull their head out of their corn hole and back down and figure out another punitive action other taking the guys cattle. Herd them back onto his land and charge him for it (that’s probably not feasible, but you get the point).

  39. It’s funny to me to hear comments about Bundy stealing grazing rights on public land when his family was doing it 75 years before the BLM was formed. If you think the government isn’t shutting down YOUR public land and creating overpriced “permits” to use what’s left just become a hunter of farmer. Once you do you will find that YOUR land isn’t yours. Sucks for me and will really suck for my kids.

  40. They should give him his cattle back instead of stealing them from them as a display of authoritarianism.

  41. It is sad to see so many sleeping SHEEPLE posting here. The federal government can NOT own land period. While Mr. Bundy may have not paid his fees to the BLM, who took over this land roughly 110 years after his family started grazing cattle there, the real issue is much bigger. Everyday the govt. is overstepping it’s Constitutional boundaries, and trying to take away more & more of our rights granted therein, and people come in here & say, oh it’s about a tortoise, or Bundy is breaking the law, but these same people seem to back all of the law breaking the govt. does, on a daily basis. Hell, Stevie Wonder could see this corruption, but you SHEEPLE can’t or won’t. Keep thinking your govt. cares about you, all the way till they bury you. This is about an agreement with the Chinese to lease the land for Solar farms, and nobody is asking what happened to ALL the other Ranches in the area, most of them have been taken by your Govt. If you are going to debate on who is right or wrong, you have missed the point completely. Good luck in your FEMA camp, you will need it.

    • The ownership of the land hasn’t changed since long before the Bundy’s came to the valley. It is still owned by the same federal government. BLM is just a management agency set up by the government to, well, manage the federal lands not already managed by the Forest Service, military, or other agency.

      • I have only seen them write tickets (fines) in Washington and Oregon. I have seen them go around like the USFS and collect “fees” from their sub contractors that are a private company that do the managing and maintenance of THIER (DNR/USFS) land. One dumb USFS/DNR mercenary was open carrying when she asked me to pay $5 to park on the side a public road. I told her to call the Sheriff.

    • There’s plenty of time left. I’m hoping they’ll do a slow reel change so I can fix some Big Dog Nachos.

  42. Free-Speech areas, just like how they do it for the G-8 Meetings. Corral the protestors a good mile away from the event itself so there’s no interference. Violate it and you’ll have your pretty picture taken with a new set of bracelets.

    Bundy was able to direct a herd of cattle OFF federal land today without being hassled by those blood thirsty baby killing Feds. Weird huh? Its like the Feds are NOT the side trying to escalate the proceedings.

    The day after one protestor rode an ATV in front of a dump truck, causing a collision, damage to federal property, and then willingly kicked a police k9 TWICE, isn’t eating all his meals through a feeding tube. Guess those blood thirsty baby killing Feds are NOT the ones trying to escalate the proceedings.

    Bundy has spent 20 years doing exactly what the Feds asked him to stop doing. He’s willingly ignoring the Feds….if that means he’s punished, then that’s whats going to happen. He knew the consequences of thumbing his nose at the Feds.

    Stop making this petty criminal into a martyr for gun rights, property rights, anti-government movement, or anything else. He willingly decided for 20 years to do exactly what the Feds told him NOT to do.

    • “He willingly decided for 20 years to do exactly what the Feds told him NOT to do.”
      Because the federal government is always right? Right? Ever hear of Waco or Randy Weaver? All we heard was how bad they were until the truth came out. But never mind that because the left doesn’t like the truth.

      • Randy Weaver owned his land. He was originally set up not by the feds, but by a neighboring ass who wanted part of the land Randy owned. So the guy wrote to Washington claiming Randy was out to kill the big cheese. Nice, eh? Only then did the feds take an interest in Weaver. And set him up. And so on.

  43. What bothers me is given the rancher’s century plus use of the land, what changed? and Who changed it.

    A rancher in that area needs thousands of acres of grazing land to financially survive, Let alone prosper. With current Drought I expect we are talking survival, not prospering.

    It seems that BLM had a moral, not legal requirement to present a workable compromise. If they took action to force the rancher out of biz, I can see how its their fault. If they remove lifestock, and sell it, a close and fair accounting is due the rancher. If they start adding penalties and interest under the circumstances I can see an issue

    Doesnt look like the local govt is going out of its way to support the Feds. why is that.

    seems like the full story isnt quiet out there.

    That being said, remember what happened to the Natives when they felt the Feds were stomping on them. Is this the time and place for a last stand?

    • There is a possible new wrinkle to the story. Harry Reid and his son are rumored to be seeking the elimination of all ranchers in the area to open up all the region to mineral (oil and gas) exploration. They are seeking to make money from one or more Chinese companies seeking to explore some of the region. Already in the area, huge oil deposits have been found and it is thought that on the Bundy ranch and the land he was using for grazing of his cattle, there is a huge deposit of petro-fuels as well.

  44. If I were the head of DHS I would suggest he watch the movie “300”. If the Feds kill the home owners, the militia members, and the protesters it will now be in vein. It will start as a whisper or maybe a breeze and grow into an enormously loud inferno of “We the People” taking back our country and seeking revenge for the innocent. The government may think it has control over us, but as seen in the middle east a small group of fighters can cause a lot of damage. Now think about the insurgents in the middle east and imagine them with the knowledge and tools of the average american. If I were the tyrannical government it would scare the crap out of me. Especially knowing that as average citizens we have tools that can knock a commanding officers head off from almost 2 miles away. I really hope the Feds don’t decide to kill everyone and have Eric Holder bullshit everyone until Obama’s out of office. That there is the making for some war.

    • For the good of the gun rights cause it might possibly, and maybe I’m reaching here, be a good idea not to talk about the “2 miles away” stuff. It just turns a nice target rifle into an anti-guns poster child. Free Speech is a valuable right, but political savvy, too, is an important human asset.

  45. If the government cannot own land, how did it pay Revolutionary War veterans with land grants?

    From the bit of research I’ve done, it seems that there kind of isn’t an innocent party in this equation. There isn’t a good guy in a white hat to get behind. There’s a guy who’s gotten used to having his own way, there are a few government agencies that are probably too heavy handed, and there’s a bunch of Internet attention. And thank God for that attention – I hope that as long as there is all that attention on the stiuation, no one gets an itchy trigger finger.

    But if you think Bundy is in the right, will you also support me when I set up a yurt on the courthouse lawn? What about when I dig a latrine on the local veterans memorial? It’s public land, right? So any of us should have the right to just do whatever we see fit on any public land, right?

    Actually, please don’t answer that. I don’t intend to get into any more TTAG arguments with anyone. Y’all are entitled to your opinions and I’m cool with that.

  46. Wow so many butthurt liberals on this page. i’m a rancher my self in Wyoming so i know what i’m talking about unlike many of you who have never seen a ranch. Nevada is a right to graze state that means one may graze cattle on public lands no matter which government group claims to own them, as long as the state allows it. the state allowed them to have cattle there for 150 years until the government decided a turtle that’s pretty worthless was more of value then people. but i digress, this whole thing is not even about that anymore. the first amendment area sign showed what your loving government thinks about your rights. I guess the people supporting the government in this thing think that it was OK for the ATF to burn Children alive in Waco, or for them to murder a woman with a baby at ruby ridge

    • Vladimir: Nevada’s Open Grazing law does not apply to federally owned land in Nevada. The controlling case is United States v. Gardner 107 F.3d 1314 (9th Cir. 1997). Aside from that, the Bundy’s haven’t been in the valley for 150 years.

      I’m sympathetic to the idea that BLM grazing leases should be consistently and equitably administered. I hear that Grazing District councils have worked well in this regard. Certainly political meddling should not lead to the favoring of one connected rancher to the detriment of another’s long-standing lease, for example. I don’t think over-grazing should be ignored, though I don’t care about the tortoises. I do think the BLM AUM fees are extremely low, and certainly don’t cover the cost of administering the land and repairing damage when over-grazing does occur. The temptation to over-graze is always there. That’s natural. The Bundy’s should have kept their lease and paid, even for the 150 head, and taken the restriction to an administrative appeal, then court. At worst they would have ended up with a lease allowing 150 head, for a piddling cost of $300 a year. If the grazing could well support that 150 head, they would have found profit in it.

        • I’m not confusing anything, WB. “Federal” land refers to ownership. “Public” lands refer to the access granted by the owner, whether state or federal. In IT people say RTFM. In law its RTFC. Gardner. Read it.

  47. BLM’s version of Josef Goebbels ie. Amy Lueders has a FB page https://www.facebook.com/amy.lueders.1?fref=browse_search, just look at her “likes” Fauxahontas Elizabeth Warren, Barry/Barack Hussein Marshall-Davis/Soetoro/Obama, DCCC, Left Action, OFA, Center for Propaganda & Lies (Media & Democracy), Bill Maher, and a profanity laden anti-Scott Walker FB page (I wonder whether Amy committed “voter fraud” voting in Wisconsin while living in Nevada).

    Here’s the BLM-Thug’s home address (so you can voice your concerns civilly about her agency’s Gestapo-like tactics): Amy Lueders 2465 Solitude Drive Reno, NV 89511-9188 and of course her tel# 775-853-6738

    PLEASE COPY & SHARE ANYWHERE and WITH ANYONE SUPPORTING THE BUNDY’s

    • If religious/social conservatives had bothered to vote in the last election, we would not be in this bind, would we? How many of these ‘militia’ types and fundamentalists refused to vote for Mitt Romney because he wasn’t perfect? More than 4 million. I hope every screaming so-called conservative reading this thread reflects on this. I’ve never understood why voting for the lesser of two evils, if that’s what people called it, was not considered a duty.

      Somebody wins every election. It has consequences. To get 51 percent of the vote every candidate has to water down their platform, compromise. That’s the arithmetic of reality. No, pretending that “not voting is fine because then people’s eyes will be opened!” does not make sense. I’d scream it from the rooftop, but my neighbors are mostly asleep, and voted.

        • Politicians are not supposed to be saviors, and very rarely are. Politicians, when elected, are the people who get to fill the appointive offices and enforce their own policies on those appointees. It is that simple. And when all the primaries are done and the campaigns head into November, you get to pick one, one of the two that result from a winner-takes-all amalgamation of the wishes of thousands of counties in fifty states. It shouldn’t surprise you or me that no candidate is perfect. Nor should it surprise you that if you don’t vote, the greater of two evils may well lead policy until the next election. That should matter to you.

          You can laugh, and call him Mittens, but in doing so you lose any credibility whatever in complaining of current presidential policy. You may not realize that. You may think it isn’t true. And so you, collectively with your like minded friends, get an Obama, and wonder why relatively few Americans are sympathetic to your self-chosen suffering. The nation neither cares nor reflects upon your wondrous parsing of Mitt’s imperfections. The plurality-by-default gets to f’k you over, and Bundy, and you just have to take it. So take it like a man, and stop with the phony legal theories already.

        • Ropingdown,

          Do you really think you’re saying anything we haven’t heard a thousand times before? Your fallacious arguments are the same ones I heard over and over and over again during the run-up to the 2012 election, and they’re just as unconvincing now as they were then.

          Your line that certain conservatives refused to vote for Romney because he “wasn’t perfect” is stupid in the extreme. It’s a strawman. No conservative passed on Romney because he wasn’t “perfect.” They didn’t vote for him because he was a flaming left-liberal, arguably the most leftist Republican presidential nominee in history (it’s a toss-up between him and McCain).

          The case for Romney was, and still is, essentially “vote for the leftist so we can defeat the other leftist!” And yet you blame Christians and social conservatives for why he lost.

        • Great post. Accurate and pithy.

          We must work to have our nominee this time around to be one with true core conservatism and an agenda to restore the American dream, American exceptionalism, govern by the U.S. Constitution, eliminate Obamacare completely and institute common sense reforms such as (but not limited to) freedom and market forces to purchase health care between states, tort reform, open federal lands to oil and gas exploration and development, release leases in the Gulf waters, fast track building of refineries across America, protect our borders (all of them), protect and defend DOMA as the law of the land, which it is still, etc.

        • As soon as I saw that FOX News had exclusive rights to this story, and as soon as I started reading many of the partisan political comments on sites like this, I knew that this movement was being manipulated by right wing forces. This seems to have become nothing more than another opportunity for the waving of flags, and talk of God, abortion, the evils of Obamaand the purity and Godliness of the GOP. In the process, those who are Independents or non-political like myself, find themselves completely shut out. Any movement that hopes to succeed needs to embrace all people. These partisan right-wingers still don’t get it….And for that reason, this movement is doomed to fail.

        • You want to become involved and be embraced? Either get out and get to Nevada and work with those representing the American citizen against the extortions of the U.S. government, or help by calling your Senator or Representative and get them involved in providing proper oversight over the out of control Bureau of Land Management. There are many things you can do.

          Some of the volunteers at the sight are apolitical. I heard several say they never did anything like this before and never volunteered but this time they had to get involved.

        • Rehg: “Any movement that hopes to succeed needs to embrace all people.”

          Wrong. All a movement needs to succeed is a dedicated minority willing to fight for what they believe in. History is littered with examples of this. The masses are rarely, if ever, the driving force behind advancements in liberty.

          If you want to sit on the sidelines and cry about how no one’s pandering to you, go right ahead. But make no mistake, history will move on without you.

        • So true. What percentage of the U.S. population at the time, fought in and actively participated in the Revolutionary War? Estimates are between 3 and 5 percent, I have heard. In any case, it was an extremely small minority which brought us all freedom from an onerous King.

    • It has been suggested my post above about exercising ones 1st Amend Right may be misconstrued PLEASE REMOVE IT so as not to tarnish the pro-2nd Amend forces.

  48. Well gents, I have to agree with Joel P. Your right, good ole Uncle Sam is really looking out for all of us. Just look at how they are protecting America. I’m not anti government, but I’m NOT blind either. How much spying and hundreds of other things done to us will we permit .. Are there so few people here willing to open their eyes and see what our politicians are doing ( It doesn’t matter which one, they’re all the same ) And, with the help of big business?, … I might be getting old, but I can still see how the government and big business’s great idea’s (schemes) have helped us… Lets see now, how about destroying the middle class by selling off their jobs… and the “Contract with America” that really went well, and the latest thing …”Change”… and how about The Government should be run like a business? IT IS NOT A BUSINESS!!! And nuclear power and all that cheap electricity we now have. And the Alaska pipe line. Where IS all that fuel?( sold to Japan I think) And your really willing to put in a new pipe line to create jobs? Who’s kidding who? Who’s gonna make out from this pipeline, and how much ground water will be polluted and people poisoned from their fracking? I know, we’ll worry about that when we have to… right? Its just another scam. If you want to create jobs bring industry back to America and give those “Red Necks” ( as one of you so eloquently called them ) something to do and with wages they can live with.”Red Necks” are Americans too, or are the so called educated the only one that matter?. . Industry made America great .and we still need it. Oh, but I forgot,.. we don’t need to be able to make anything to defend ourselves We have computers and smart phones…Hey! something here has to be smart! And we’ll be able to document the disarmament and invasion/take over (government give away) of America to China when we cant make the loan payments on the money our politicians borrowed… Oh yeah, Obama did that…but they were gonna impeach Nixon for a lot less so dont say there was nothing that could have been done about Obama and his cronies. Is it so hard to see what is happening here? Hitler and his henchmen comes to mind… Its happened before, but this time its OUR government who will strike the American people… ( all we have left is the people ). They’ve already sold the rest. They don’t give a damn about us…ONLY the money… BUT we do have guns. Thats all we have between them and us and so far thats all that has prevented them from making their “One World Order” … This country used guns to fight off teriney when it was new, but now…??? And its much worse now… Well… Stop whining about that rancher and his cattle. Some people are just tired of being pushed around by the feds. If the Feds don’t respect the law, why should the rest of us? ( God Forbid! ) Or cant you think outside of the box? ( use your phone! )
    America can not stand with so many divided people.

  49. Papa Doc Obama needs his own Waco to keep up with Clintons legacy as a butcher. This ranchers only “crime” is he produces beef for people to eat. God forbid if Harry Reids brown shirted BLM goons were doing something productive, like protect the border from cartel drug gangs.

  50. Way late to this discussion, but here’s my two cents. The Bundys claimed their grazing rights pre-dated the creation of the BLM and therefore they could do what they wanted on the land. The courts disagreed with them. Twice. At the same time, many visitors to this site would say that the RKBA cannot be infringed. Many courts disagree. Who’s right, the POTG, or the courts? Apply this to the Bundy situation.

    Property rights have been almost completely obliterated in this country in the last 40 years, mainly due to the rise of environmentalism. National forests were originally set up to preserve wood for the use of future generations. Lately, they have become bird sanctuaries, and many families were driven out of lumber businesses they had operated for generations and communities wiped out. Farming communities in California have been wiped out because water supplies were diverted by the feds in order to protect some minor fish. Landowners have been dispossessed because their land was reclassified as federally protected wetlands. Fisherman have been put out of family businesses because of some federal mandate or other. Whole communities were dispossessed through eminent domain so that their land could be given to developers who would turn it into properties that would generate higher tax revenues.

    The BLM was set up to manage federal grazing lands. There were once 56 ranchers in that part of Nevada, most have been pushed out or bought out. The Bundys are the last. If no one is grazing these lands, what is the BLM doing with the land? Some have claimed the BLM is protecting an endangered species, but this is complete BS since they were themselves destroying said species in recent months. Just because the courts say it is okay to infringe on your gun rights, does that make it okay? Just because the courts have declared the Bundys are in the wrong, does that make it okay?

  51. I realize that a lot of you have no concept of what a cow calf pair takes to graze on land. Bundy has been running approximately 900 cow calf pairs on 250 square miles of desert. What started this in the beginning, was the BLM in the early 90’s approximately about the time of Clinton and Janet Reno, declaring that he could only run 150 pair on 250 square miles, that would not have penciled out. Considering that the man’s family had been there since the 1870’s, well in advance of the BLM, I am presuming that he thought of that land as his family’s to begin with. So he told them to F off. Can’t say I blame him. That would be brutal land to raise cattle on. I think that the BLM figured they would pull one of Janet Reno’s tricks out of their bag, because he has been a pain in their butt for decades. I think that the BLM backing down now could probably be because of this deal reported today, about Harry Reid and the Chinese wanting the same land for a big solar electrical generation facility. They have been using the excuse that this is sensitive land for the desert tortoise but I don’t buy that crap. I feel sorry for a lot of these guys ordered in to this deal, some will eat it with a spoon, but from what I hear a lot of the out-of-state LEs were not real happy to be there. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Meanwhile trying to round up cattle using a helicopter is just stupid, especially with young calves. Probably the idiots higher up in the Department of the Interior ordered this fiasco up. I think they will sneak back in after the news vans leave and burn the Bundys out.

  52. You people need to get your automatic email list working right. I enjoy reading news on here, but this is the 3rd time this week I’ve received “news” updates that more than a year old, and this one’s over THREE years old. It’s making me consider cancelling my updates altogether.

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