Question of the Day: Did SIG’s Arm Brace Kill the 16″ Pistol Caliber Carbine?

SIG SAUER is about to launch their new MPX firearm in 9mm, and there’s a problem. The gun was designed to work with an extremely short barrel, so all of their intended models use that same barrel length — the only difference is that the “rifle” version for the commercial market was going to include a gigantic muzzle brake that can be converted into a silencer later down the line and bring the overall length to the legally required 16 inches. Redesigning the gun to use a true 16″ barrel would take way too much time and effort to make sense.  But now that the ATF has decided to classify their muzzle brake as a silencer, SIG has decided to drop the “rifle” product from the lineup (for now) and release only pistols, some of them sporting their famous SB-15 arm brace. That brings up an interesting question . . .

Since SIG’s pistol brace is basically a “good enough” stock when used “improperly” — and improper use isn’t illegal according to the ATF — is there any reason to ever make a 16″ version of a pistol caliber firearm again? Especially for firearms that are designed and intended to be compact “personal defense weapon”-style guns, what’s the point of adding all that extra barrel length when you can just slap an SB-15 on whatever “pistol” you have and essentially have an instant SBR without the tax stamp? Is there still any reason for a 16″ version of a gun that otherwise would be a kick-ass SBR?

comments

  1. NY resident here: we can’t purchase handguns without a permit, so a rifle version is a useful platform for those laws.

    But then again we can’t own these anyways…

    1. avatar RandallOfLegend says:

      NYer here. Only new pistol caliber carbine I can buy is a lever-action. Everyone talks about Ruger PCs and Marlin Camp Carbines, but I have yet to see one outside of Gunbroker.

      1. avatar lolinski says:

        They should really start making them again.

        Make it use common pistol mags (Glock, CZ, SIG, Beretta and S&W mags), sell it for 300 or less (preferably around 200) and you would have a good and economical home defense gun.

    2. avatar LarryinTX says:

      Don’t forget to vote.

    3. avatar Anon in CT says:

      Even prior to Sandy Hook, I wasn’t allowed to buy a “pistol” with all these features. This does look a lot more appealing than my JR carbine (not my best gun buy).

  2. avatar Jim Barrett says:

    That’s a fair question. Some folks have suggested that there really is no reason to ever bother with the hassle of the SBR paperwork when all you need to do is use a SB-15.

    As someone who owns a SB-15 and who has still gone ahead with the SBR paperwork, let me suggest two considerations. First of all, there is absolutely a difference between using the SB-15 as a stock and using a real stock. The SB-15 is fine for limited use, but its just too short to be an every day stock. If you are concerned about accuracy (and no reason you shouldn’t – even with an SBR), you are going to have better luck with a real stock.

    Secondly, and more in the tin foil hat category, the SB-15 is legal until the ATF says its not. At any point in time, the ATF could rescind its ruling and make them illegal. It has happened before with items approved by the ATF. Imagine a situation where a mass shooting happens perpetrated by people using the SB-15 to enable them to hide the weapon and get it someplace it should not be. As I said, it’s probably not likely to happen, but it would be somewhat more difficult to the ATF to capriciously make SBRs illegal than it would be for them to reverse their ruling on the SB-15

    1. avatar Jim Jones says:

      With yesterday’s article in TIME magazine about the rise in popularity of silencers, it is only a matter of time before someone goes into hysterics about the SB-15. God bless the soldier who came up with that design.

    2. avatar Armchair Command'oh says:

      Besides avoiding the paperwork and tax, keeping it a handgun provides other benefits. For example, some states (e.g. Florida) only allow the concealed carry of handguns, not rifles. Using the SB-15 stock means you can throw one in a backpack if you ever felt the need to discretely carry around some extra firepower, such as during a natural disaster. Doing that with an SBR or something like a Sub-2000 would be illegal.

      1. avatar Jim Barrett says:

        An excellent point. New Hampshire for example has a Fish & Game department law that forbids carriage of a loaded rifle in the car. You could technically carry a loaded pistol with SB-15. Of course the possibility remains that the cop you deal with doesn’t understand the subtleties of SB-15 versus unlicensed SRB, so you might have some issues with any gun that has a “shoulder thing” on it.

        1. avatar Tex300BLK says:

          I would definitely want to carry around that ATF letter with their ruling on it in my pistol grip or gear bag. Not that that would help with some overzealous Barnie Fife.

      2. avatar TheBear says:

        If the sub-2000 is folded it would not be a problem.

        I believe (and someone correct me if I am wrong) the sub-2000 is considered “disassembled” while folded because it cannot be fired.

        1. avatar Armchair Command'oh says:

          It would depend on your state’s law. In Florida, you cannot carry a “Firearm” concealed (without a permit). The definition of a Firearm includes frames or receivers. So technically, you could not put a stripped AR lower (assuming that lower was once a rifle) in your pocket and walk around with it. After a quick review of the law, I don’t see any exception for disassembled firearms. While this is probably an unintentional oversight, it appears that so long as you’re carrying a receiver, you are carrying a firearm under Florida law.

        2. avatar sammy says:

          Great concept, but I would not trust my life any any Keltec

        3. avatar TheBear says:

          Thanks for the reply, Armchair. I had not considered the different state laws.

          And as for Sammy… stop being a firearms snob. Plenty of people can and have trusted their lives to Hi Point, much less Kel Tec.

          It’s not like a gun is a magical, sophisticated device. You can make a gun with stuff from home depot. Some have better design or QC than others, but your statement is ridiculous.

        4. avatar Sammy says:

          “Sammy… stop being a firearms snob. Plenty of people can and have trusted their lives to Hi Point, much less Kel Tec.”

          Sorry, I only trust my life to the best. I own two Keltecs and Keltec ain’t it.

          Just because plenty of people purchased Ford Pintos doesn’t mean I will.

        5. avatar TheBear says:

          ^ Fair enough.

        6. avatar Stephen M. says:

          Good tip for FL residents is just to buy a cheap cuban yoyo and a mini tackle box, then just open carry whatever you feel like. *shrugs*

          “No officer, I don’t need a carry permit, I’m off to go fishing”

      3. avatar Rokurota says:

        In Virginia, we have Concealed Handgun (not Weapon) Permits, so this would make a great car/”get home” gun.

        1. avatar SD3 says:

          Interesting, ain’t it?

          The actual Virginia law addresse concealed weapons. But the permit you receive, is a concealed ‘handgun’ license.

    3. avatar Rabbi says:

      “The SB-15 is fine for limited use, but its just too short to be an every day stock.”

      I agree. The top photo is my build. I have since built a second pistol as well. I took the brace off of the one pictured and added a 1.25″ spacer which makes it perfect length. One the second, I put some epoxy on the buffer tube to stop the brace 1.25″ from the receiver. Case closed!

      FYI: KAK makes a pistol buffer tube that keeps the brace about 2″? from the receiver.
      http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HWASVS4/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

      1. avatar surlycmd says:

        KAK now makes a pistol buffer tube for the SB-15 that uses a standard castle nut and end plate. I’m using the original on my 300 Blk pistol but will use the new one on my next build.

        http://www.kakindustry.com/ar-15-parts/lower-parts/buffer-tubes-and-parts/sig-super-sb15-pistol-buffer-tube

        1. avatar doesky2 says:

          Thanks for the links to a product that I thought would be a great idea but didn’t know existed. With the extension this could significantly make it quite comfortable.

        2. avatar surlycmd says:

          No problem doesky2.

    4. avatar Jeremy S says:

      Yeah there’s no real reason to actually push the brace all the way up against the receiver plate as in the photo at top. On most buffer tubes, the brace is held on there pretty freakin’ solidly even if it’s a couple/few inches back from the plate. This makes it feel nearly identical to a standard M4 stock on the shorter couple of settings.

      BTW — another HUGE benefit to the SB-15 is being able to take your pistol across state lines. SBR transit is heavily regulated and you need approval from the ATF to cross state lines with it. Doing the brace instead means it’s just a normal pistol so everything that comes with that, like loaning it to a friend (depending on your state but most are fine with that), selling it, driving around with it, have it out of your immediate and controlled possession, etc etc are non-issues, whereas with a registered SBR you have to be very careful to stay on the right side of the NFA laws.

      1. avatar Rabbi says:

        I tried not pushing the brace all the way and stopped it one inch short. The recoil from the 6.8SPC pushed it the rest of the way. I have not tried it with a 5.56, but instead added a spacer.

        “BTW — another HUGE benefit to the SB-15 is being able to take your pistol across state lines.”
        You are right. I didn’t think of that, but that is a HUGE benefit.

    5. avatar ValleyForge77 says:

      + 1 on Jim Barrett. SB-15 is kind of a sucky excuse for a stock. And who knows if they will go full reversal on their decision at some point. Also can’t run a VFG on a pistol. Although being a pistol makes it safer to transport. So yeah, SB-15 is not a cure-all and should not do away with the 16″ PCC.

      1. avatar B says:

        You can run a Magpul angled foregrip though. If your pistol is over 26″ long like the Franklin XO (I think) you can run a vertical grip.

        1. avatar Jim Barrett says:

          Uh, no you can’t. ATF addressed this specific issue in a letter- do a google search. Their position is that a pistol is designed to fire with one hand. Stick a foregrip and you now have an AOW (any other weapon). That requires NFA registration, but the tax is only $5 rather than $200

        2. avatar surlycmd says:

          @Jim Barrett
          Would you clarify your comment about the fore grip? The ATF letter I have, dated Aug 2011, states the Magpul AFG is legal but a true vertical fore grip is not.

        3. avatar ValleyForge77 says:

          Surly – That’s my understanding. Magpul AFG ok, but NO vertical grip.

        4. avatar Jeremy S says:

          The angled foregrips (at least Magpul’s) are legal. The ATF bans vertical grips, and the magpul piece does not count. There have been multiple letters on the topic, and it’s addressed in this one on the last page (last question): http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/ATF%20Response%20-%20AFG%20on%20AR%20Pistol.pdf

          And an even clearer response to a person who sent them photos of the AFG and everything: http://www.dustyjacket.com/shooting/atf-afg.jpg

          Absolutely legal on an AR pistol. There have also been “rulings” on a couple of those mag well covers that make the mag well a much better forward grip. Even though the mag well is vertical, the ATF has, so far, ruled that those are okay on an AR pistol also. At least the couple brands they looked at.

        5. avatar surlycmd says:

          Thanks ValleyForge77 and Jeremy S. for the confirmation.

        6. avatar Chump Stains says:

          Franklin XO-26 is not a pistol, so installing a VFG does not make an AOW. Legally: “Firearm”

  3. avatar TheBear says:

    I agree that this is a fair question.

    However: Remember that the Sig pistol brace is a piece of removable kit and all the ATF has to do is arbitrarily reverse their decision. They’ve done so before.

    That said, I can’t wait to see people start putting them on Glocks for the machine pistol look.

  4. avatar Andrew says:

    Breaking: TTAG still in Sig-Country! Hopes to be out by August.

    Seriously. How many Sig-related articles are we going to see this week?

    And are you wearing genuine Sig-Tac baseball hats?

    1. avatar Nick Leghorn says:

      Probably two more. We flew to their factory to test their stuff, gotta get the most out of the plane tickets.

      1. avatar Taylor TX says:

        That 240B made all the MPX articles worth it imho 🙂

      2. avatar Accur81 says:

        I hope a Sig 227 review is coming down the pike.

        1. avatar LJR says:

          I have the “carry”. Same size as my P229. Worth every dollar. My P229 in 9mm broke 20,000 rounds this fall. I carried it for over 20 years and thought this one can go the same distance.

      3. avatar Andrew says:

        Its okay, I’m still drooling over the MPX. Or MXP. or whatever the hell it was.

        Plus these delicious Sig-Sauer Tactical Peanuts!

        😉

      4. avatar scoolbubba says:

        Any chance on a 556xi review?

        1. avatar Gaston G says:

          Yes, please!

    2. avatar LJR says:

      Yeah I’m tired of hearing about the best new designs out there. Maybe we could hear about the Glock .380 that is the same design in a different caliber or another 1911 that won’t cycle. Clownshoes

    3. avatar int19h says:

      It could be some other country designing this product, but it was SIG. So SIG is in the spotlight, and deservingly so.

      Because SB is kind of a big deal, actually.

  5. avatar Kaliope says:

    No, I don’t believe the pistol brace killed the pistol-caliber carbine market. There are plenty of people who are taller and lankier than I. The Sig pistol brace is a bit short for me, but I can comfortably shoulder a weapon with it. However, it is still 10x more comfortable to shoulder my Sub2K than anything with one of these braces on it, and extending the brace somehow will most likely get it classified as a stock, which rules that out.

    I am looking into getting an AK pistol with the brace for a “road gun”, because I travel between Louisville and home a lot for work, but I wouldn’t want to use it as a substitue for the Sub2K, and I may not even use it as a road gun once I get it, just because I do have a Sub2K. I just need to get more 20 round magazines for it.

    I don’t think it will kill pistol caliber carbines in the slightest just based on the comfort factor of a real stock versus a brace with a super-short length-of-pull.

    1. avatar Bill says:

      surely you’ve heard of the KAC spacers or even the concept of using an A2 receiver extension. Length problems only exist because the user isn’t looking to fix it.

      1. avatar Kaliope says:

        I did not know this, but it still feels like a legal gray area to me. Still, it makes them more useful if you have/are willing to buy an AR of any kind. I’m not, especially not at the moment. I’m not in anyway knocking the pistol brace concept, but I still don’t see it killing the pistol-caliber carbine.

      2. avatar B says:

        A2 extension doesn’t fit the Sig brace. Its too skinny so it doesn’t grip at all.

  6. avatar Jean says:

    And when will firearm manufacturers start making AR pistols with extended buffer tubes so that you actually can use the arm brace as a stock?

    1. avatar Jim Barrett says:

      That would be tricky. I believe that an AR-15 needs to have a pistol length buffer tube on it to be considered a pistol. If you screw on a carbine or rifle length buffer tube, you no longer have a pistol, you have an SBR irrespective of the stock that you use.

      1. avatar TheBear says:

        A good rule of thumb is the further you go into grey area with the ATF, the higher probability you can get 20 years in prison.

        Personally, I don’t go chasing waterfalls. Only rivers and lakes for me.

        1. avatar Ralph says:

          Outstanding TLC reference!

        2. avatar Accur81 says:

          I had no idea Ralph knows about TLC. Mind…blown…

        3. avatar Knuckls says:

          H/t to TLC.

        4. avatar Ralph says:

          Mind…blown…

          What’s cooler than being cool? Ice cold.

          And the hits just keep on coming.

      2. avatar surlycmd says:

        Someone asked the ATF that question. Buffer tube length does not matter. “Constructive Possession” may come into effect if you have a stock laying around that fits the tube on the AR pistol.

        Here is a link to a thread that contains a picture of the ATF letter.
        http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=483410

        1. avatar Tex300BLK says:

          yeah people are basically hanging their hopes on the whole “we cant be responsible for the misuse of a product…” argument that the ATF referenced in their ruling on the SB15. People are definitely playing in grey area when they start adding spacers, and epoxying these things to a pistol buffer tube.

          That to me sounds like an ATF officer playing by the book could grab you for any number of things if they were feeling spiteful, it wouldn’t be fun for sure and too many cases like this and we could see a reversal of their ruling.

          I still dont get it, $200 for a tax stamp isnt much when you look at the cost of these guns. Buy a normal buffer tube and wrap it in paracord (I just found out this is legal) and wait for you stamp and go buy a CTR or other nice collapsible stock. I dont travel with my firearms so I dont really see the truly urgent need to be able to cross state lines with an AR15 SBR on a moments notice, and if I do I will take a 16″ gun or a pistol If nothing else, theres too much risk. Ive had my truck broke into in broad daylight on the side of a busy interstate. Perp got a pistol and an irreplaceable heirloom rifle. I dont even want to think about the headache of losing an NFA item. Everyone should have a good 16″ carbine around so the short/ no notice travel argument is not really a valid excuse in my mind. SBR’s/ fake pistol frankensbrs are cool but they shouldn’t be your only AR and especially not your first AR.

          The primary draw of an SBR is same length as a normal gun with a silencer attached, and concealability for PDW. There is a huge tradeoff though in increased muzzle blast and huge losses in velocity. 300blk and 458 Socom are the only cartridges where you dont lose as much velocity but again, neither should be a first or only AR and I circle back to the cost thing, a good setup with either of these calibers is going to completely dwarf the tax stamp cost.

          So then it comes down to an impatience thing… the gotta have it right goddam now generation wins this argument because you build your pistol and slap a SB15 on it and go mall ninja’ing, no wait involved. I guess Im just more patient than that, and am willing to look at a bare buffer tube for 6-9 months without going completely insane, and then order a quality carbine stock.

          Different strokes.

        2. avatar surlycmd says:

          @Tex300BLK. I don’t have a problem with patience. Except for the stupidity and of it. I already have stamps for suppressors. I currently live in VA and intend to move to the northern plains later this year. I have waited to go SBR until I have setup in my new location for the obvious NFA SBR relocation requirements. The SB-15 is a nice mid point for me.

        3. avatar doesky2 says:

          I was on your side of SBR paperwork until I learned that transporting a SBR is fraught with issues and delays. Sure seems an SB15 positive that you can transport it like a pistol.

        4. avatar int19h says:

          Some states ban SBRs outright.

    2. avatar Hobbez says:

      There are already several companies that make pistol buffer tubes that are fatter at the receiver end for various lengths. They space the sig brace back to a longer LOP. I have two different ones on my 2 pistol ARs, one in 300blk and one in 9mm. They have the same LOP as my rifles.

  7. avatar DisThunder says:

    If things weren’t so stupid right now on a federal level, I would dare say the Sig brace might have been the perfect demonstration of how stupid the SBR restrictions really are.
    With things being as stupid as they are, I expect the ATF to ban them, using some made-up restriction they just found, and the majority of the pro-gun crowd will shrug their shoulders since it doesn’t affect them directly.

  8. avatar Jim R says:

    I think it’s only a matter of time before the ATF changes its mind about the SB-15 and other similar braces. So no, this didn’t kill them.

    1. avatar ValleyForge77 says:

      I’m not so sure. They are definitely not stocks. They work pretty crappily as such. And if that’s really the case, what about bullpups? Same thing, right? Short overall length – but with a real stock instead. SB-15 isn’t all people think it is. Own one, then tell me what you think.

  9. avatar R says:

    It depends on how the ‘Lower’ is registered when manufactured. “Rifle, Pistol, or Other”. Once categorized, it cannot be assembled and resold as another. For example, buy the ‘stripped’ Lower, and you can attach any length of barrel as long as it does not have a ‘stock’, or front ‘foregrip’ (vertical attachment). But you have to dismantle it if / when resold.

    1. avatar LarryinTX says:

      Boy, is that some stupid shit. How many people get paid to make up and enforce such ridiculous rules, and what is their background/expertise, do you suppose?

      And will someone PLEASE explain how any such stupidity is, even theoretically, supposed to reduce crimes by even ONE?

  10. avatar surlycmd says:

    Which will get banned first, bumpfire stock or the SB-15? If part of the same legislation the item listed first is it.

    DiFi listed Slidefire by name in her last attempt. The ATF has not changed the classification on that item as of yet. The SB-15 most likely will not be re-classified either. But who really knows?

  11. avatar KingSarc48265 says:

    Honestly, I think charging 900+ for whats basically a better looking Hi-point carbine is what is killing off 16in pistol caliber carbines. AR and AK pistols can be had for a cheaper price and they fire more powerful ammunition.

    1. avatar Kaliope says:

      Not to mention that AKs (and even semi-auto RPKs, sometimes) can be had for as little as $500 before shipping, generally with cheaper magazines.

    2. avatar TheBear says:

      There’s a lot of truth to this….

      There really isn’t much my Beretta CX4 will do that a Sub-2000 won’t…

      It’s like comparing a Lexus to a Honda. Ultimately they are both cars, and the price point may matter more or less to different people.

      Personally, I invest in quality 9mm platforms because I like to reload 9mm. Straight walled rounds are easier for me with my setup.

      But yeah… as an example, I was thinking about buying a Steyr Aug for the sole purpose of getting the 9mm conversion kit for it. Then I realized that before optics, before any other doodads, I would have invested $3,000 in a 9mm rifle. I mean, I could get an SBR or machine gun for that amount of money!

      So… good point. A lot of these new, sexy 9mm platforms coming out lately are just too fucking expensive especially when you consider 9mm has gone up quite a bit in price.

  12. avatar PeterK says:

    Well it still comes back to: Do you want an adjustable stock? Or can you go with the brace and just have fun with that.

    What we really need to do is kill prohibition era superstitious nonsense law.

    1. avatar Kaliope says:

      I agree that efforts to remove SBRs and SBSs from the NFA list would be a better direction to move in, but we all know how unlikely it is to see that change any time within the next century. Any attempt to touch the NFA will be shot down, and risk the reclassification of stockless rifles as “short-barreled” as well.

      It would be awesome to see SBRs removed from the NFA, but it’s incredibly unlikely to happen.

  13. avatar PhoenixNFA says:

    Answer: No

  14. avatar Peter says:

    Why go through the hassle of getting an SBR whey you can just buy a bullpup like the Tavor?

    1. avatar TheBear says:

      They’re expensive and some people don’t like the ergos.

      I personally have several bullpups and I love them but they aren’t for everyone.

    2. avatar Kaliope says:

      Because some of us aren’t wiping our asses with hundred-dollar bills.

      If you can point me to an affordable bullpup (under $1,000), your comment might have some credibility.

      1. avatar TheBear says:

        Word. I think I’ve sunk about 4k into my MSAR E4 now.

      2. avatar Tex300BLK says:

        I hear you on the price of Tavor’s and RFB’s etc, but if you are so poor that you have to buy some chintzy plastic forearm brace shaped like a stock instead of paying $200 for a tax stamp then you you probably need a different hobby.

        1. avatar LarryinTX says:

          I tend to agree. I admit that I don’t much care about the price of my toys, but I do get the impression that many, even on this site, see skimping as a game, boy did I get away with something by knowing secrets that you don’t know, etc. My yet-to-be-possessed AAC .300 Blk 9″ AR, the silencer, and 2 tax stamps cost about 3050 after taxes. Guys, that is not that much. Ask somebody working with a .50, or a big-game double rifle.

        2. avatar TheBear says:

          Meh… I think the operative word here is “hobby”.

          I will admit I am a hobbyist. I have a pretty decent collection and I know my stuff.

          But some folks only keep guns for one purpose, whether it be hunting, or target practice, etc. For people who only keep a gun or two for self defense, I could see price point being a big issue.

          It’s all about priorities.

        3. avatar Kaliope says:

          So poor people should just give up on the idea of having a short, maneuverable, stocked weapon for home defense because they’re poor? Do you realize that an AK pistol turned SBR can be had for half the cost of a bullpup, even with the tax stamp? Apparently, rich anti-gunners don’t have a monopoly on elitism. Have you considered that paying more than $1,000 for a firearm can be a huge waste of money? Especially if you could get a firearm that does the job just as well for half the cost (or less) if the bullshit laws weren’t in place? What about a bullpup makes it worth 2k? Are they that much harder to assemble? Or is it just because it’s something us poorfolk just don’t deserve to own?

        4. avatar Kaliope says:

          Sorry if I came in hot, I just find that many people don’t realize that barring arms (of any kind) from from poor people is why the $200 stamp exists, and that bullpups have no good reason to cost an arm and a leg

          @LarryinTX, $3050 may not be a lot to you, but to a man working 200 miles from home supporting his girlfriend that is an unreasonably high price. Hell, even if it weren’t, some people would rather pay $1,000 for a firearm and spend the other $2,050 on, oh, I don’t know, ammunition to shoot said firearm? Or extra magazines and ammunition? Or on trips to the range? Mayhap even all of the above?

          It’s not about impatience, it’s not about “I have a +100 barter skill”, it’s about the fact that the law is unjust and unnecessary. It is not wrong to save money. The original question posed in this particular thread was asking why one would deal with the hassle of an SBR instead of buying a Tavor. The answer is because an SBR can be had for less than half the price of a Tavor or similar weapon. That still doesn’t excuse the unjust law.

        5. avatar Sambo82 says:

          “then you you probably need a different hobby.”

          It’s not a hobby, buddy. It’s a right. And I take great pride in the fact that I can build a $450 AR and have it perform just as well as someone with a Tavor. You want to spend $1k more than me on a firearm that performs the same? That’s fine with me. I’m not knocking how you spend your money. But for some people practicality trumps fashion, and as I subscribe to the Insurgency Theory that the 2A is primarily about citizens keeping their government in check, I personally am not going to own a firearm that I’m not willing to dump in a river or dumpster if needed. For me owning a single Tavor doesn’t make sense when you can build 3-4 AR15’s for the same money.

        6. avatar Tex300BLK says:

          @Sambo82, you quoted me but Im not sure if you were actually responding to me, otherwise you would have also read the part at the top where I agreed that some of the pricier European or Domestic bullpup firearms are a bit ridiculous. Although your river argument falls apart because Im sure a Tavor or any of the other absurdly priced guns can survive that.

          My point about finding another hobby is directed to the people buying these arm brace things to make some FrankenSBR that most honest people are agreeing is a shoddy stock substitute at best, all to avoid the $200 tax stamp to make it a real SBR. I dare you to find me an average Joe shooter who will actually be able to tell the difference in a home defense scenario with a 16″ carbine vs one of the concocted SBR Pistols with a brace. You wont find one, period. Remember with this arm brace thing vertical fore grips are still verboten so youve lost that aspect that you could have will a real SBR or a 16″ or a pinned 14.5.

          My current home defense weapon is a 16″ carbine. I have practiced manouvering my stairs and I have even measured my presentation with the CTR all the way retracted and it is at worst no longer, and honestly probably a bit shorter than me presenting my fullsize glock 22 which I used to use. An SBR might be better but the 16″ gun already does what I need it to for HD, but to be effective the SBR would really need a suppressor due to the increased blast and flash makes it a terrible HD weapon without one.

          Again this is advice for a first or only AR, neither of which should be an SBR. Buy/build a 16″ gun in something vanilla like 5.56/223, it will do 99.9% of what you need a rifle to do, and then if finances allow build something more exotic (SBR, different caliber like 300blk, 6.8, etc etc.)

          This sig brace is a solution looking for a problem if you honestly want my opinion (I realize you may not and that is cool too). The only use I see it really doing well would be to monkey around with while you are waiting for the stamp, but then Id prefer and spend the money on something else.

  15. avatar Pashtun6 says:

    Kill? Maybe not. But will more peolple just attach a SB 15 to thier pistol instead of wading through the bureaucratic nightmare that is the process of getting a tax stamp? The answer to that question is yes.

    1. avatar Tex300BLK says:

      BS, if you fill all the forms out correctly and give them all the materials they ask for the first timegetting a form 1 is no less complicated and not a whole lot more expensive than registering a car or getting a drivers license.

      Its the I have to have everything right now personality type that cant stand waiting so Sig invents this cute little thing and laughs all the way to the bank watching people hobble through courses of fire all scrunched over with their “SBR’s”

      1. avatar Sambo82 says:

        Yeah, the tax stamp isn’t really that big of a deal. Unless you want to take your SBR across state lines. Or unless you have a non coperative LEO. Or unless you don’t want to be put into a database like a child molestor. Or unless you don’t want to wait for half a year.

        You now what, if the SB 15 really works well for a stock for someone (which it does for me with a KAK tube) it absolutely makes no sense whatsoever to burden youself with the tax stamp. I mean, why even pay the money and go through the trouble? Thats the real question.

  16. avatar Steve Truffer says:

    16 inch PCC with 4 inches of backbore? Would make for awesome flash suppression and noise redirection.
    I think that 16 inch PCC’s will remain popular where there are heavier restrictions on pistols, wherever money is tight, or when one wants mag compatibility with their pistols.

  17. avatar M. J. says:

    Simple answer no.

    More complex answer: There are several pistol caliber carbines out there that are fairly inexpensive especially in 9mm and .40cal. ones like the Kel-Tec Sub 2K uses common pistol magazines like Glock or Beretta mags. This means you can have a rile and pistol that interchanges magazines and ammunition. This is the same reason I would like to have a model 94′ Winchester in .357 because my favorite carry sidearm is a .357 revolver. It is nice to be able to use both long arms and sidearms in the same cartridge. So some will want this in 5.56mm because they have a 5.56mm rifle already and should be able to interchange mags as well. Some will want rifle cartridges for both and some like me will want pistol cartridges for both.

    My biggest gun question has always been why are there so many different calibers and types of ammo? I know each has a different application but some have no “real” use at all like .25ACP and manufacturers still make them and the guns that go with them. so why?

  18. avatar Soccerchainsaw says:

    This question is kinda like debating whether you would prefer the broom handle to be lubricated with olive oil or ky when you should be protesting that the thing is about to be shoved up your hiney.

    Tell me again why firearms in certain configurations are prohibited and how that prohibition isn’t in conflict with “shall not be infringed”? We’re getting distracted from our main focus like when a dog sees a squirrel….

    1. avatar surlycmd says:

      Because getting around the the 80 year old infringement laws legally is just as important as trying to over turn them.

  19. avatar irock350 says:

    When firearms companies start making worthwhile pistol caliber carbines agian the Sig brace won’t matter. All I want is a .45 acp carbine that uses glock mags that isn’t a horrible ar-abortion or a Kriss. Lever guns in pistol calibers are a lot of fun, and I would rather have 9mm over a .410 than a .22lr any day of the week.

  20. avatar Great Scot says:

    Yes, I think it has made the 16 incher redundant. That is, until the NFA makes them illegal. Really, it’s only a matter of time until they reverse their rulings. Eventually, some bright spark will realise that it’s being used as a makeshift stock than a stabilising brace. But then again, no bright sparks have yet realised that pointless weapon bans prevent guns being in the hands of criminals. But that’s besides the point. I would buy them why you still can, and hope like hell that they’ll be grandfathered in!

    1. avatar LarryinTX says:

      You forgot the exigencies of Barry or Eric finding out about them. The guys ARE stupid as a post, but even if they have help figuring it out, those things will be ruled illegal within the week.

  21. avatar Bob says:

    No it won’t, just because of caliber, and the different uses for those pistol calibers. I can shoot 9mm from my carbine on steel as close as 10 yds. Try that with some 5.56 and let me know how that goes.

    The SB15 might change the SBR market. Dunno. For me that arm brace thing is only interim step, something to put on the gun, and have fun with, while the actual stamp comes back. I hated my sig522P until I SBR’d it. I would rarely shoot it until it had the stock. So having a quasi stock during the wait would be worth it.

    I figure I would sell the brace once the stamp came back. Maybe someone will let me lease one or buy one and pass it between buddies?

  22. avatar anthony o. says:

    I like 16″ pistol caliber rifles because they maximize +p loadings. I have a stockpile of 2Z 9mm loaded for use in MP5s and I chronoed them at 1800 fps out of a beretta CX4

  23. avatar jomo says:

    Honestly, wouldn’t have ever considered anything shorter than 16″ barrel without the SB15. Why would I want to go through all the paperwork and hassle–and face the complication of having to sell/transfer/file paperwork if I ever have to move just because I have a barrel shorter than 16″? Combined with the KAKS buffer-tube and a couple spacers, this is ENOUGH stock to be useful. It has the advantage in that you can take it across state lines no muss, no fuss. I honestly wonder how many who’re saying that it’s “SBR” or nothing have ever really TRIED the SB15.

  24. avatar SingSong says:

    If they need me to redesign it, let me know. I’d rather see the 16″ than the brace.

  25. avatar LJR says:

    Has anybody tried it on a A2 buffer tube? As far as I know any buffer tube is legal on a pistol.

  26. OK.
    Let’s see. IMO the brace is really only good for folks who can’t get NFA stuff due to either their state laws or lack of CLEO support.

    The damn thing has a $140 MSRP. I see them selling for $130.

    A basic CAR stock sells for what? 5 bucks used sometimes in classifieds.

    The difference in price between a stamp and a brace is a couple mags and a few boxes of ammo.

    I see zero reason to buy a brace unless NFA stamps can’t happen for you.

    Why be limited to just that brace, lack of foregrip, and user adjustability? Really.

    2 mags and some premium ammo to fill em. That’s the difference between the two.

    The brace has merit but I don’t see it pushing SBRs out of the way any time soon.

  27. avatar Randy says:

    I think the discussion of whether the SB-15 brace makes your AR pistol a “no stamp SBR” takes the wrong angle. There’s no need to court ATF scrutiny by talking about it that way–because it isn’t really what the brace does.

    What is revolutionary is that the brace makes an AR pistol usable. Using the brace as intended makes an AR into a shootable pistol. –and you can brace it against your shoulder if you need to, which still doesn’t make it a rifle for practical purposes, but something else.

    The availability of accurate, reliable bullpups is what makes an SBR obsolete to me. The Tavor is a real “no stamp” short rifle. It functions as a rifle.

    The brace can’t replicate that–but it does allow me to build a compact, light, long gun caliber PDW that can be shot well at short ranges.

    It’s a revolutionary product, but it isn’t a “free SBR.” It fills a different niche.

  28. avatar Sam says:

    So this site claims similar regarding a vertical grip on an AR pistol.
    OAL has to be greater than 26″ for it to be “OK”.

    http://johnpierceesq.com/?p=602

  29. avatar MN randy says:

    The brace is a huge development. First of all, I wouldn’t SBR a .556. But the shorter barrel is optimum for the 300blk. The benefits of the sig brace are numerous over the tax stamp. This means that I would never consider an SBR, but am now buying a 300blk. No frakengun either. Advanced armament, all factory. In Minnesota, with my permit, I can carry it, loaded, in my vehicle, or on my person. I am not added to any special federal data base. I can carry it with me in 21 different states. I lose no effectiveness because of the shorter barrel (not so with .556). Also, remember, when you have an NFA item, you agree to submit to allow unannounced searches of your residence (or wherever the firearm is located). I’m a very straight laced guy, but who the hell wants the Feds in your home without a warrant? With the KAK buffer tube, LOP is no issue. For those saying the BATFE will reverse- maybe. But they are fully aware that these braces are being shouldered. I’m not sure they can mandate the “correct” way to fire a pistol. I’ve heard that that’s a legal question they don’t want to enter. Remember, this was invented so handicap veterans can operate their firearm. Not sure the optics will look good to rescind this. All this to say, without the sb15, I wouldn’t ever consider a SBR, otherwise. Now, its definite.

    1. avatar Jerry says:

      I know this is a very old post, but I need to straighten you out on something. The possession of an NFA weapon does not give the federal government the ability to search your home, or any other place, without a reasonable search warrant. Except under exigent circumstances, a search warrant must be signed by a judge. Possession of an NFA weapon does not relinquish your civil rights under the Fourth Amendment.

      http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/04/jeremy-s/the-truth-about-nfa-inspection/

  30. avatar X-five says:

    Jesussss, poor people buy cheaper guns, rich people buy expensive guns. If I didn’t have the money I wouldn’t be buying 30k+ Custom Sig sauer pistols and Class 3 machine guns

  31. avatar LS says:

    Sigh….elitist are disgusting no matter the context, and you character (arrogance) is no better than the liberal elitist, you just demonstrate your sickness on a different topic. You can bash the brace and you bash the glock and you can bash steel case ammo; but I promise if you show up at my house with ill intent, what I have will allow me to file a report the next day. 90% of you guys who crap on the brace have never used it. I wont do the SBR cause I dont want to have a gun that no one can use but me or that I cant take across state lines without everybody and the NSAs momma knowing about it. Dont tell me about the trust thing; I get that too. If my brother visits and wants to go shoot, he can grab my guns and go. PERIOD. So its about values and priorities not about $200 or time or any other straw man that makes you sbr boys feel big and special. LOL Get over yourself. You paid a tax and waited…so what.

    BTW, I have two Daniel Defense MK18’s with the sig braces. One is black and the other is FDE. They are awesome and I have never had anyone who picked one up that didnt want one immediately.

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