Random Thoughts About Carrying A 1911

 Wilson Combat X-TAC (courtesy The Truth ABout Guns)

I spent the better part of Saturday hanging out with our man Leghorn. As I watched TTAG’s T&E guy wolf down half-a-pound of Schmidt’s barbecued brisket (moist), we talked about carry vs. home defense guns. I asked Nick why he carries a Wilson Combat Bill Wilson Carry 1911 (review here) but relies on a suppressed SIG SAUER P226 Mk25 for protecting home and hearth. Nick said he carries the 1911 because . . .

“It’s badass.” While it’s hard to argue with that kind of logic (or lack thereof) I did my best. “You do realize that the 1911 is the best gun in the world to shoot someone with,” I said sipping from a styrofoam cup of Mexican diet soda. “And the worst gun in the world not to shoot someone with.”

“You mean the trigger,” Nick replied.

In a high-stress situation fine motor coordination disappears. Fingers feel like flippers. If your flipper finger “touches” the 1911’s trigger during a defensive gun use (DGU) chances are it’s going to go off. In contrast, if your flipper finger checks (a.k.a., “registers”) the go-pedal of your average polymer pistol or any double-action revolver, chances are it’s not going to fire – until you consciously squeeze the trigger. Generally speaking. In theory.

“If I’m outside and I draw my gun, it’s because I’ve identified a threat,” Nick said. “I can see it. It’s in front of me. Odds are I’m going to need to shoot. So I’m not that worried about not shooting. If I’m at home, I probably won’t see the threat when I have my gun. I might be half-asleep, confused. The threat could be anywhere. I might be mistaken about what is a threat. I need that extra margin of safety.”

After that conversation, TTAG reader SL send me this DGU story from PA’s wabc27.com:

A 31-year-old Glenville woman was alone when she heard someone trying to force their way inside Wednesday, so she grabbed a handgun that she trains with on a regular basis, Southwestern Regional police said.

She then called 911 and reported a burglary in progress, police said.

When the man eventually kicked in her front door and entered the home in the 7700 block of Glenville Road, the woman leveled the gun and told the intruder not to come any closer, police said.

He obeyed her order and was found on the front porch of a neighbor’s home when an officer arrived minutes later.

Cory R. Gootee, 19, of Stewartstown, told the officer he had left a neighbor’s house to smoke a cigarette, became disoriented, and believed he had been locked out of the neighbor’s home, police said.

Police said Gootee may have been intoxicated.

We don’t know what kind of gun was involved or if the homeowner had her finger on the trigger during any part of her close encounter with an inebriated home invader. But the story seems to back up Nick’s contention that it’s good to have a home defense gun like the double-action P226 with its 10 lbs. initial double-action trigger pull. A trigger you can touch without firing. As opposed to the single-action-only Wilson Combat with its 3.5 lbs. trigger pull – if “pull” is even the right word – where the slightest squeeze sends lead downrange.

Then again . . .

What’s so different about street life? A bad guy comes towards you with a knife, you aim the gun at him or her and order them to stop. They do. If you “register” the trigger of your 1911 at any point in the proceedings, oh dear. The noise, paperwork and legal fees could be immense. Lest we forget, it’s also possible to mistake a scary-looking guy reaching for a cell phone as a life-threatening perp. Cops do it all the time. Spec-ops high-speed low-drag operators operating in operational environments wielding 1911s? Not so much.

Yes, there is that. Some members of the special forces crowd are partial to 1911s, as are some SWAT guys and gals. Surely they wouldn’t carry “hair-trigger” handguns into situations where a negligent discharge could be a career killer. How come they can carry 1911s but civilians can’t (i.e. shouldn’t)? Former Wilson Combat media guy John May asserts that “a 1911 is an expert’s gun. Unless you train hard with it you should think long and hard about carrying one.”

A lot of 1911 owners think they train hard. They fire thousands of rounds through their 1911 every year, most at square ranges, some at competitions. The train themselves to shoot well. But they don’t practice not firing their gun – as military and police special units do. Those guys train to maintain muzzle and trigger discipline during a variety of high-stress simulations. Non-coms and non-LEOs simply don’t know whether or not they’d check the gun’s trigger during a DGU before making a conscious decision to let loose the ballistic dogs of war.

I mention all this because I’m buying a Wilson Combat X-TAC. And I’m thinking about carrying it (for a variety of reasons). While I hardly consider myself an expert on anything other than the inadvisability of marrying beautiful women, I’m no newbie. Still, short of a real-life DGU, there’s only one way to find out if I’m up to the challenge of carrying a gun with a breathe-on-it-and-it-fires trigger: force-on-force training.

I’ll take some more force-on-force training and ask someone to watch my trigger finger. If I can keep my booger hook off the bang switch until I need to fire (or not), I’ll carry the Wilson. If I can’t I won’t. Fair enough? Oh and I watched an IDPA competitor’s Wilson choke this weekend. Extractor issues, I believe. More food for thought.

comments

  1. avatar Vhyrus says:

    Special forces and SWAT teams don’t get arrested for shooting the wrong person. Half the time they get promoted for it.

    Getting back to the bigger issue: Why in the blue hell would you ever want to carry a gun that weighs more, holds less, costs more, and is slower/more complicated to fire?

    1. avatar BlindKyle says:

      Because it’s badass.

    2. avatar El Mac says:

      @Vhyrus – “Why in the blue hell would you ever want to carry a gun that weighs more, holds less, costs more, and is slower/more complicated to fire?”

      Because they work very well. As for that slower/more complicated to fire bit….nothing and I mean nothing, could be further from the truth.

      1. avatar Vhyrus says:

        ‘disengage grip safety, consciously disengage thumb safety, pull trigger’ is NOT more complicated than ‘pull trigger’?

        1. avatar El Mac says:

          @Vhyrus, not at all.

        2. avatar Delbert Grady says:

          7 rds from a 1911 are 50% more powerful than 14 rds from a Glock 21. Read it on the internet must be true.

        3. avatar Taylor TX says:

          Grip safeties are only to disengage the trigger when the firearm is NOT being held, its all about that choice of manual safety or not imo. My XD has a grip safety, but I rarely take it into account because a proper grip never interferes with it.

        4. avatar Larry says:

          Could not agree more. All you said and then hope you take very good care of that gun or it might not fire, fire but get a FTE or FTL.

          I love me a 1911, love the history, the “American” value of it, but outside of fun shooting, give me a Glock 17 – 8 days a week.

        5. avatar B says:

          A high grip riding the safety should be natural when shooting a 1911, plus it helps with recoil. Stopped carrying it much though, really like the way my 637 rides on my belt. Shooting it accurately makes me whimper though. With Miculek’s revolver shooting tips I can keep it on the circle the first 2 cylinders, but after that the grouping starts to get torso sized as it beats on my hand.

        6. avatar JR says:

          If you have to “consciously” disengage the manual safety, you are not training enough, or not training the right way.

          I hate this stupid argument, as one who has carried a DA/SA (with safety) and has carried a Glock 22 (no manual safety).

          Straw man all the way, in my opinion. I have NEVER drawn my weapon and tried to squeeze the trigger with the safety on in over 20 years of owning that pistol.

        7. avatar micah moody says:

          All those safety features engage automatically as you grip the gun , if it is of quality construction!

        8. avatar Joseph says:

          “Way more complicated. Disengage grip safety, disengage thumb safety…”
          You know there are other ways to carry. Condition 2 is what I carry and all I have to do is pull the hammer back.
          You naturally disengage the grip safety. It’s a beaver tail, for God sakes.

    3. avatar Curtis in IL says:

      “Why in the blue hell would you ever want to carry a gun that weighs more, holds less, costs more, and is slower/more complicated to fire?”

      Darned if I can answer that question, which is why I bought a Glock. But at the range yesterday, my nephew obliterated the center of the target with one gun but could hardly hit it with another. And it doesn’t really matter which gun was which. What matters is that we all need to carry what works for us.

      1. avatar Another Robert says:

        I like that!

    4. avatar Cknarf says:

      I’d carry a 1911 for special occasions, ’cause they’re classy as f***.

  2. avatar Delbert Grady says:

    If a 1911 is good, a Rossi 44 Spl. must be better. Logic 101.

    1. avatar Vhyrus says:

      That would make the Desert Eagle 50AE The conceal carry gun of the decade. Glad we settled THAT argument.

      1. avatar Delbert Grady says:

        Pfeifer-Zeliska .600 Nitro Express Magnum more betterest.

  3. avatar michael nieto says:

    i wish i was a high speed low drag operator that wears the latest tacticool fashion with my eotech on backwards. Or i could just carry a gun i am familiar with and thank god i am rich enough to afford a good lawyer if i need one

  4. avatar S.dogood says:

    police are taught to hesitate spec ops not so much their taught to check the target but not to hesitate will i carry my 1911 when i get my carry permit here in TN yep cause its what im comfortable with and a platform i know well

    1. avatar Andres says:

      “Their” is possessive; “they’re” means “they are,” as in “they are taught…” And while we’re at it, “it’s” means “it is” (this is for you, TTAG staff!) It can be a bit confusing, but we’re gun people, so attention to detail is to be assumed, no? We discuss ballistics, friction, and things like reciprocating mass, so basic grammar is not beyond our grasp.

      I understand and support TTAG’s efforts to clean up the language, and I’ve seen (and support) the conversations addressing the high level of animosity towards “lefties” we sometimes show. Why not raise the bar for grammar, so we look as professional as possible? If we want to avoid giving the anti’s anything to use against us, why not go all the way?

      1. avatar peirsonb says:

        I give a certain amount of grammatical incorrectness (God that hurt to type) a bye on the intertubez. Humor, sarcasm, and a whole host of other types of speech do not translate well to type. Occasionally the rules must be bent in order to properly convey a point.

        That said, a little proper capitalization and punctuation goes a long way….

        1. avatar S.dogood says:

          grammar Nazis they be everywhere -.-

      2. avatar MW says:

        There is nothing wrong with not butchering the English language.

        1. avatar Robert Farago says:

          Or avoiding double negatives.

        2. avatar Jay Williams says:

          Where’s the double negative? He said precisely what he wanted to say and he did it using correct English.

          While we’re at it, how ’bout you all stop ending every article with “Just sayin'” and starting every other sentence with “Needless to say”? If it’s needless to say, then don’t say it. If you think it needs to be said, then stop saying that it’s needless to say.

        3. avatar rlc2 says:

          my favorite phrase to hate “at the end of the day…”

          PS: I’m a big offender on they’re theirs – I blame it on the cell phone spell checker auto word filler thang. At the end of the day, it dont matter.

      3. avatar Carry.45 says:

        I was about give the guy one post up a hard time about claiming to be rich enough to afford a good lawyer with grammar like his(doesn’t even capitalize his name) but then I realized that would only show people I’m an asshole. So I held my tongue… til now. It’s not cool to be a dick to your brothers in arms.

    2. avatar S.dogood says:

      So since grammar Nazis seem to proof read only my posts on this comment section and they must be expert proof readers,i will now properly re type my comment to appease the most vile creature on the internet the grammar Nazi !!!!!! Police are taught to hesitate, spec ops not so much they’re taught to check the target but not to hesitate. Will i carry my 1911 when i get my carry permit here in TN yep cause its what im comfortable with and a platform i know well

      1. avatar Stinkeye says:

        I am 100% sure that this second attempt will also fail to satisfy the grammar pedants among us.

        1. avatar S.dogood says:

          more than likely

        2. avatar Mark N. says:

          Well, at least you got the spelling down. A bit of punctuation–you know, question marks, commas and periods– and you’d be perfect.

      2. avatar Dan A says:

        If you want anyone to take you seriously (or even bother to read your posts in the first place) you should probably listen to the “grammar Nazis.” The ability to construct a coherent sentence is a GOOD thing.

    3. avatar Bob says:

      A little bit of punctuation would help too. Try using a period followed by a space and a Capital letter once in a while.

      It is hard to take anything you say seriously, when you write like an illiterate moron.

      Your name is Not e e cummings. (Look it up.)

  5. avatar Jim Barrett says:

    Kudos to you Robert. You really get one of the main advantages of FoF training. Sure, it’s primary goal is to inoculate you against the impact of stress during a real DGU. If you do enough FoF training, then your ability to respond during the real thing improves. However, one of the overlooked advantages of FoF training is to get a better understanding of yourself and how your body and mind will behave when the S hits the F. I’ve seen some really scary things done by people during FoF training and I hope that they will take those lessons home and give them some good thought. I certainly try to do that every time I do something dumb in a FoF exercise (which at this stage in my training is pretty much every time).

  6. avatar DisThunder says:

    1911 is my winter, colder weather carry, and my summer carry when I don’t give a damn about obvious.
    I’m revolver shopping for this summer. You know, cuz climate change and all. Snicker.

  7. avatar Jeff says:

    “A 1911 is an expert’s gun,”

    says the guy that sells them for a living.

    1. avatar ropingdown says:

      “A 1911 is an expert’s gun,” May told TTAG back in the day. “Unless you train hard with it you should think long and hard about carrying one.”

      The 1911 was designed to provide reliable easy accuracy in the hands of relative novices, soldiers given little ammunition for practice. It served that purpose well until those bored with merely killing the enemy acquired a desire to do so only after calling their shot, as in “fourth button from the top, perp falls to the left.” Tighten up that bushing! It soon became apparent that two-hundred rounds a day, not per year, seemed the sensible amount of practice, so small parts began to break before a ‘moment of truth’ ever arose. I can only suggest carrying two 1911’s, drawing both. Drop the one that jams first. That’s simple enough.

    2. avatar Another Robert says:

      If so, an interesting marketing theory–by saying it’s an “expert’s gun” you limit your potential market–but you give yourself a plausible reason to charge higher prices.

      1. avatar Jeff says:

        while I’m not a 1911 afficionado, I think that’s exactly what Wilson Combat does.

        1. avatar (Formerly) MN Matt says:

          They’re certainly at that “Expert” price tag. I’m sure they’re fine weapons and all, but even if I had the money a Wilson Combat would be a ways down on the list. But then again, I’m not an Expert.

      2. avatar Marcus Aurelius says:

        Not at all, by marketing them as guns for “experts” you not only appeal to those who are genuinely at that level, but also to those who aspire to be, or just want “the best” because they can afford it. People have a knack for picking out portions of a message they find flattering to think apply to them. I think it’s pretty clever overall.

        It’s kind of like Zero Tolerance knives being marketed towards military and law enforcement, but at $300 for a folder you get a lot of customers who get enamored with the motif while they have money to spend. (If you really gotta have one, get a blemished one for half price)

    3. avatar Tommycat says:

      Ego sells. Tell a man that this thing is for experts only, and he’ll tell you, “I’m an expert. gimme that thing.”

      1. avatar Another Robert says:

        and pay out the nose for it.

  8. avatar peirsonb says:

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but if you’re “registering” the trigger with ANY firearm haven’t you already identified a threat and made a conscious decision to destroy it? 4 rules and all?

    1. avatar KingSarc48265 says:

      Thats what I was thinking. Isn’t running around with a finger on the trigger exactly how cop’s guns magically/accidentaly ”just go off?” And I don’t want to hear about light trigger pulls either, this happens with the Glock 15lb NYC trigger too.

      1. avatar ZM 1306 says:

        I read somewere, but cant remember ware, that during high stress situations the muccles in the hand can spasem with 30lbs of force.

        Making any relistic trigger pull weight kinda pointless for “oops” moments.

        Keep finger off trigger and on the side of your gun untill you are engaging the target. I need to practice this more.

    2. avatar JR says:

      Bingo. +1000.

    3. avatar Hannibal says:

      The four rules go out the window when you’re thinking of shooting someone. Not every situation demands that you fire a gun as soon as you draw it, however.

      1. avatar JR says:

        What?

        How do the four rules go out the window when you are “thinking of shooting someone?”

        (1) It sure better be.
        (2) Yep; I’m willing to destroy this guy, or I better not have drawn my weapon and be pointing it at him.
        (3) Finger goes on trigger in order to stop the threat, so check; kinda foolish otherwise.
        (4) BIGTIME better do this…

  9. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

    I can’t shorten this article up for you…

    Title: The 1911.

    Introduction: Hey!

    Body: If you don’t carry a 1911, then f*ck you…

    Conclusion: Pantywaist.

    Written by: ROHC, esquire.

    1. avatar ropingdown says:

      Yes you can. I mean “yes, you did.”

  10. avatar Jon in NC says:

    I actually had the same situation happen to my wife and I. My neighbor was playing poker and drinking heavily with his buddies..his friend went out to his car but came back to my door and tried to break it down thinking it was his buddies house and that they had locked him out as a joke. I had my Ruger 1911 on me…..never thought for a second I would accidentally pull the trigger. After I figured out who it was I politely went to my neighbors house and told him to be careful because his friend almost got shot !

  11. avatar Dirk Diggler says:

    get a glock and get it over with

    1. avatar peirsonb says:

      But…but…you don’t even need to pull the trigger on a GLOCK. Damn things shoot themselves….

      1. avatar Delbert Grady says:

        1000.00 1911 more gooder than 500.00 Glock 21. Basic law of economics. Pay more you get more.

        1. avatar peirsonb says:

          I feel funny using and abusing a $1,000 just about anything. My 1911 was in the $500 range and it’s proven itself to be reliable enough for me to feel safe with it.

          If I want to spend $1,000 on a 1911 I’ll be putting it together myself……

        2. avatar ropingdown says:

          If you think you get more when you pay more, you just haven’t been following the cost-to-taxpayer of civil service salaries or the war on drugs.

      2. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

        I find it hard to fault the Glock. Hell, my woman says I have a problem shooting when I’m not supposed too…

        But, I don’t know what she’s talking about, to me it always seems like it’s right on time.

      3. avatar A-Rod says:

        Let’s put internet research to the test –

        Negligant and accidental discharges with a Glock – XXX
        Negligant and accidental discharges with a 1911 – XXX

        1. avatar peirsonb says:

          I tried using the internet for research once. Kept returning to “philosophy.”

        2. avatar Tommycat says:

          Wouldn’t be fair, Most cops have glocks, and they have a greater chance of accidental discharge(volume of cops carrying versus people carrying 1911’s).

        3. avatar Marcus Aurelius says:

          Funny thing, Peirson, I always end up looking at anatomy.

        4. avatar ropingdown says:

          Peirsonb, that’s Wikipedia. Worse things happen if you do the same “first link” on Google, since that is almost always a paid link.

    2. avatar Gene says:

      Can’t hit the broad side of a barn with a Glock-brand Glock for some reason. Same issue with revolvers. 1911’s, Sigs, Arcus, BHP, H&K, etc. I do less-worse with.

  12. avatar Michael in GA says:

    I think the 1911, yours specifically, once proven reliable in a serious training course, is a great choice in any situation. I carry a Glock 19. They are already proven reliable so that is my choice. I don’t believe it takes so much more skill to operate the 1911 that it should be qualified as an “experts gun”. In reading comments on several websites, I notice that there is always a heated debate between 1911 guys and Glock guys and eventually the Sig guys chime in. I notice the 1911 guys are more defensive in these debates. Glock guys respect the 1911 and may own one but choose to carry Glocks. 1911 guys hate Glocks. They hate “plastic”. They say things like “I only need one shot to knock down the bad guy”. Then they contradict themselves when they say “It’s not that hard to operate the thumb safety” and in the same argument say “Glocks are for untrained people and 1911s are for experts”.

    1. avatar peirsonb says:

      I think the 1911, yours specifically, once proven reliable in a serious training course, is a great choice in any situation.

      ANY gun should be vetted so that the owner feels comfortable carrying it before they just strap it on and go.

      I happen to carry a 1911 (the first gun I bought, now the only one I can afford). I carried it with the chamber empty, hammer back, and safety on (I don’t think that even has a condition) for a month before I was confident that I wasn’t going to accidentally swipe off the thumb safety. I do the same any time I make a modification to any of the major mechanisms, e.g. swapping the grip safety for a beavertail.

      Take appropriate measures with ANY gun to make sure YOU feel confident enough to carry it safely.

      1. avatar Michael in GA says:

        Tru-dat! But most people are not going to field test their weapons enough to expose its faults. Combined data over time will weed out the lesser performers. 1911s just seem more finicky than Glocks. The problem with comparing Glocks to 1911s is, which 1911 are we talking about? There is one Glock but many brands of 1911 and they are not created equal. The price of the 1911 is not a sure indicator of reliability either. If you have had no issues with your $500 1911 then that’s your huckleberry.
        And that condition you carried in before gaining confidence to load the chamber is called “Appletini”.

    2. avatar Mark N. says:

      I don’t hate plastic guns, but I will never own a Glock unless someone gives one to me. I don’t like the way they shoot, and I don’t like the total absence of any external safety device. My first handgun was an XD–because of the grip safety. I also own a 1911–a Kimber–and it does not have a hair trigger, more like 4.5 pounds.

      1. avatar Michael in GA says:

        You don’t like the way they shoot is a very valid argument. For most people, they shoot just fine but if you are more successfull with another quality firearm then you should use that one. At least you have a good reason.

    3. avatar Tim says:

      Yup, the plastic thing and Glock/Shield, etc. type trigger are new to an older guy like me. My handguns are big and heavy and I like thought of being able to use them as a weapon even after I’m, out of ammo. 😉

      Right now I’m trying to decide between a Shield and a P938. Or maybe a Glock. But my enthusiasm just seems to wane when I handle plastic guns, or most guns made out of any folded metal. I like machined sh**. Like I said, I guess I’m just an old guy. Realistically, a gun is just a projectile launcher, and I guess if one was made out of paper mache’ and it saved your life, it wouldn’t matter.

      “Plastic, it’s the way of the future!”- Dustin Hoffman’s future father in law in “The Graduate”

  13. avatar wheelgun dunn says:

    I have to be honest, I’m getting a little tired of the “nobody trains enough or trains correctly” mantra you hear so much. I am a former LEO and I shoot in competition regularly. I trained martial arts for 12 years so I understand the fundamental need for training. You have to train. I get that. One of my old instructors used to say, “You can’t shoot pool with a rope.” If you carry, no doubt you should train. I’m headed out to a training class next month to improve my skills, but the truth is most people need to carry to defend themselves and their families but cannot afford financially or cannot spare the time from work and family to train relentlessly. We do the best we can. People need to be aware of the details, such as trigger control and discipline, but no one can train as much as it seems to be advocated. You don’t have to be a Navy Seal to carry on a day to day basis. Most DGUs I hear about or read about go over much better than most police involved shootings you read about and they are the ones who supposedly have all the training! Which really isn’t true anyway. When I went through the Academy they did the best they could but it was short and sweet and the rest was left up to you. I wish I could train and shoot all the time, but to most of us some local competition is the best we’ll get. You learn a lot there and while I realize hope is not a strategy sometimes you just have to hope it’s enough.

    WG

    1. avatar Michael in GA says:

      Your honesty is apreciated. Well said.

    2. avatar JR says:

      “cannot afford financially or cannot spare the time from work and family to train relentlessly.”

      These people cannot afford 10 minutes of dry fire practice a night? Or a week? Drawing practice even without dry fire? Malfunction clearing with snap caps?

      Training comes in many forms, and a little bit consistently tends to go a lot longer than trying to do a lot in a once-per-year trip to the range.

    3. avatar Tim says:

      Good points. Furthermore most bad guys don’t train much at all. They’re more concerned with focusing on the crime they’re committing, getting high, screwing, or whatever. They’re probably high half the time when they commit the crime anyway. Accidents are probably common with them. So the competition bar is lowered in terms of accurate tactical shooting.

      Let’s face it, most of us civilians will never ever be in a situation need to draw and fire as fast as humanly possible, faster than the time it takes to release a safety, here in the U.S. More likely, you’re stranded on a highway late at night and you’re awaiting help, or left your wife behind when you went to get it yourself. Or a thousand other situations where you have at least many moments to prepare vs. draw and shoot at an sudden eminent threat. The MOST important thing is that the gun goes bang when you finally pull the trigger. If you want to uncomplicate things, wheelguns rarely fail.

  14. avatar ST says:

    Umm, here’s a thought.

    Why don’t we just accept other people’s carry choices?

    Seriously, this “ALL MUST CARRY ONE GUN” BS dogma has got to stop. So what if the guy next to you wants to pack a 1911. Big whoop if the girl in the other seat has a .380 Glock in her purse. Let the old woman with her .357 magnum on the ankle go in peace.

    Let’s quit the fundamentalist attitude that everyone must carry the same hardware and holster, because all of us are different people with different needs and requirements.

    1. avatar JoshinGA says:

      Amen. I personally dont care what anyone else carries. If they dont ask for my input on their carry choice I dont give it. We should all just live and let live, and be happy that another person sees eye to eye on this issue with us and has chosen to be armed as well, regardless of what or how they choose to do it. Besides, as you said, what works best for me wont necessarily work best for you, or anyone else for that matter.

    2. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

      I don’t think you understand how this Internet thing works…

      1. avatar Another Robert says:

        LOL!!

      2. avatar Michael in GA says:

        Yeah! Where’s the fun in that?
        I think debating “best option” is a good thing. Just try to keep emotion out of it and use logic. It doesn’t matter if a guy chooses a 1911 “’cause it’s bad ass!” but if that same guy is going to criticize my choice then he should offer better reasoning. I carry a Glock because it is a tool, not an heirloom. It has the best reliability record. It is minimalistic in operation and ease of concealment and deployment. It comes standard with a thick barrel that has polygonal rifling. The grip on the G19 is very comfortable to me. Magazines are abundant and versatile (15, 17, 33, 50 round options). It is very accurate. I like the stock sights with the U rear sight. I shoot with both eyes open so the front dot sight does not confuse my eyes with rear dots. I can disassemble it one handed (not that I would ever need to but it is just that easy). There’s more but you are tired of reading by now. This is just an example of how to use reason when justifying your decision.
        A 1911 guy could do the same:
        I carry a 1911 because it is a single stack 45 that is thin enough to conceal. I like the weight of the metal frame, it helps my accuracy, it helps me manage recoil for follow up shots and when I conceal it, I feel its location. I like the grip. Ergonomic grips are not molded to my hand but the straight 1911 grip is easy for my hand to conform to. It is a popular gun so getting parts for it is easy…etc.
        There is no “gun fits all” but if a first time gun buyer can read all points of view then he can be more educated in choosing. Maybe some guys will change their minds on what to carry. As long as logic prevails, then I encourage disagreement.

  15. avatar El Mac says:

    RF, welcome to the world of 1911s. You will find it isn’t as bad as you think. And if you want, and you should, just have Wilson tune your pistol to about a 4.5lb trigger and you’ll be fine.

    As for: “In a high-stress situation fine motor coordination disappears. Fingers feel like flippers.” Common misconception. Please tell that to the world of fighter pilots and attack helicopter pilots. It boils down to training. Pretty simple, no secret.

    1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

      How about 1911 pistols in general? Is it possible to increase trigger pull to 5.5 pounds?

      1. avatar El Mac says:

        @uncommon_sense, yes sir.

        1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

          To clarify I should be able to increase the trigger pull to 5.5 pounds or so on 1911 pistols made by other manufacturers, correct?

        2. avatar El Mac says:

          @uncommon_sense, if I understand your question correctly, yes sir.

    2. avatar Hannibal says:

      The military trains them relentlessly to get to that point. Who do you think is training RF for free?

      1. avatar El Mac says:

        @Hannibal, if RF has a problem with training, let him say so. Speaking as an attack helicopter pilot of course…. bottom line, the “loss of fine motor skills” argument is largely overblown caca.

      2. avatar jwm says:

        Yeppers, in the military the training is your job. You’re getting paid to immerse yourself in the training and practice and real world scenarios 24/7.

        There is no private training you pay out of your own pocket that can match it.

        1. avatar El Mac says:

          @jwm, if we are talking airplanes and helos, I agree completely. If we are talking pistols….not so much agreement there.

        2. avatar jwm says:

          Wasn’t specific to firearms.

    3. avatar ropingdown says:

      I, too, think the whole “you’ll go blind and spastic when trouble comes” is overdone. You take out your gun when you reasonably believe….etc. You shoot when that’s the requirement. You feel pissed off and maybe shaky after, if you’re not on Ativan or Valium, which you shouldn’t be, though plenty of soldiers and cops are from time to time. If you quickly realize you made a mistake, well, too late.

      And as for the whole “asking Nick about the 1911” bit: Hey, RF, you gave him that 1911 a good while ago. Can’t be any surprise there. Despite all the BS 1911’s are fine if you don’t mind the weight, but you already knew that. I figure you fell into the “why the hell did I give that to Nick” moment.

  16. avatar Topmounter says:

    You don’t really know until you know (and you hope that you never have to know).

  17. avatar Amagi says:

    Crossbreed makes one hell of an IWB Holster. I miss mine. Ever since i moved to the Garden state, it’s been but in moth balls.

    1. avatar Taylor TX says:

      Completely agree, I LOVE my horse hide AIWB holster, the most comfortable appendix holster Ive used so far. My one beef is that the hide is really starting to show some wear, and Ive remolded the kydex twice as it seems to loosen up over time.

    2. avatar peirsonb says:

      Does anyone make a comparable holster with thicker and/or plastic belt clips? That stamped spring steel always makes me nervous around leather upholstery.

      1. avatar ropingdown says:

        Actually, Crossbreed offers them, or did when I ordered my last one a year ago.

        1. avatar Jay Williams says:

          My Qwik Clip arrived a couple days ago. It has a plastic clip.

      2. avatar Z says:

        You should take a look at the comp-tac minotaur line, they fit that description. I’ve carried in one for around 2 years now and it’s worked great.

    3. avatar JR says:

      Agree also. I’m really liking my new-to-me CB so far (had it about 2 months).

  18. avatar tdiinva says:

    I have had several false alarms where I had a sense that something bad could be happening. I only drew my gun once and when I did it it was without thinking or hesitation was down on one knee a in place of semi-concealment with my trigger finger outside the trigger guard in the ready position. In this particular instance I had my XD/m but the point is I had trigger discipline. As I have said before there is no better indicator of how you will react in a DGU than a false alarm that has all the hallmarks of the real thing. When the adrenaline is flowing there is reallyno difference between 3.5lbs and 5.5lbs. You are going to pull hard enough in either case. If you want a more secure trigger than you want to have a double action on at least the first round. Better yet, if you are that worried about an inadvertent trigger pull get a revolver.

    I think Robert and other plastic gun aficionados have 1911 envy. Be happy with your choice and we will be happy with ours.

    1. avatar ropingdown says:

      It is a truth widely discovered but rarely spoken in polite society, that when someone takes up the shootist avocation in earnest, hoping to empower the saving of a life upon an instant’s notice of a lethal threat….that when the chance for such shootings does not materialize after a few years, they eventually feel the urge to buy jewelry attractive precision pistols. This arises from the subconsciously unavoidable conclusion that if a massive fifteen-shot alley altercation isn’t happening, then perhaps they should at most expect a mere two or three-shot shutdown, and that in the geologic-era interval between actual defensive trigger pulls they may as well look good. Reflecting, I think the conclusion is sound.

      1. avatar jwm says:

        BBQ gun. Redneck bling.

  19. avatar Kevin Mussack says:

    What happened to Rule #3?

    1. avatar Hannibal says:

      Shit. And shit happens… plan for it.

  20. US Special Forces, on the whole, are not using 1911s.

    1. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

      Well, that’s disheartening…

      I assumed, like everyone else in the world, that simply owning a weapon that is used by Special Forces was enough to obtain the same level of skill with said weapon.

      1. avatar Delbert Grady says:

        Special forces change sidearms like underwear. Standard issue M9s, 1911s, Sigs, they can pick and choose whatever they want to carry.

    2. avatar ropingdown says:

      Though my high-speedness is best shown in a typing test or radar’d tennis serve contest, I have heard that Delta dropped the 1911 because the expense of x-raying the small parts of every pistol before a deployment came to be seen as a needless expense. That Glock 30’s and 21’s worked better with suppressors likely added incentive to move on to 17’s for general use. The SEALs never used 1911’s for much. Who fights a war with a pistol, anyway? If the enemy sees you draw one, he just laughs and shouts “can’t maintain your f’g rifle, eh gringo?”

    3. avatar H.C. says:

      When I was deployed in AFG 11-12, MARSOC used their MUESOC 1911/M45/ICQBP, Army ODA (SF) had beretta M9’s, Air Force JTACs carried Glock 19s, Navy EOD had Sig M11s (P228), SEALs had their mk25’s and a couple of Mk23s (couldn’t believe those were still around) and the Delta guys had Glock 22s, some with RMRs milled into the slide.

      From what I understand, delta switches pistols depending on what their leadership is into at the time. Glocks were cheaper and 1911s required too much maintenance from the high round counts. That’s just what I heard though.

      I hate when everyone says “spec ops this” and “they don’t discriminate targets that” believe it or not, they get in trouble for shooting the wrong people, and I watched a JTAC climb a mountain and chase a guy we thought was an HVT for hours in the dark, into the early morning, and then NOT shoot him even though we thought he was armed… He ditched his gun earlier and they pulled a fuck ton of PKM ammo and a radio off of him… He was a 14 year old wanna be fighter… But he looked older and bigger wearing all of his haji kit. So… Yeah… Target discrimination…

      P.S. He had his M4 out… Not his handgun… So no one uses pistols anyways… So this whole argument is idiotic on the whole…

      Just my 2 cents…

      1. avatar ropingdown says:

        Of course it is, in a sense, ‘idiotic.’ To an approximation one rarely even draws a sidearm in civilian life. And the near-assumption that a gun maintained in the comfort of ones very own home (not a barracks, not a tent) should fail in any catastrophic way is odd, given that only a few defensive shots are usually involved and civilians have the luxury of choice (or, paradox of choice) in both handgun and cartridges. Guns are absorbing, like playing golf. Yet I don’t remember thinking about my guns much at all during actual military service. I used what was provided, kept them clean and lubed, and went out to use them. I do remember bitching about worn feed trays. I do remember using ill methods to get a shorter carbine for a time, for convenience in a chopper, but that didn’t last long. But blogs. Leisure.

  21. avatar ThomasR says:

    When I CC; I carry a Glock 30 IWB because it is smooth and has a smooth profile; when I OC, I carry a 1911 because it has one more control to disengage if the gun gets taken away from me in a struggle. I feel confident in my training regimen that I would operate either weapon in a way that would only endanger a human predator.

    As for whether a gun is inherently “better” as a carry gun? It really comes down to the person and if they train enough to feel confident in their abilities in a self-defense situations with the gun they are carrying.

    The first thing is, of course; does a person actually carry a gun?

    1. avatar Michael in GA says:

      Your basis for carrying a 1911 is that the other guy has to take the safety off before shooting you with your gun? I have heard this one before and it still boggles me that 1911 guys use that as rational?

      1. avatar DavidT says:

        I got pulled over for a motor vehicle violation in CT while legally carrying a 1911. None of the 3 cops that showed up had any clue how to take the safety off to unload the thing so I had to do it (with 3 very nervous cops watching me with their hands on their sidearms). So yes, I think your average gang-banger whose whole experience is with a point and shoot firearm (Glock or revolver usually) would be slowed way down by a thumb safety on any hand gun.

  22. avatar Timbo says:

    SO… you are saying that a heavier double action trigger that you are more likely to pull off target in a DGU situation is better? I may be extremely dense (just ask any of my ex-wives) but I don’t get it.

  23. avatar Kurt says:

    Just a (significant, in context) clarification: the double action trigger pull on a P226 is closer to 10 pounds, not 5.5. The second shot SA pull is about 4.5.

    This strengthens your assertions.

    1. avatar Robert Farago says:

      Good point. Text amended.

  24. avatar Tom in Wisconsin says:

    We need more articles and posts about how “you are doing it wrong”.

    1. avatar ropingdown says:

      Agree. “In the photo you can see that the gun he bought is no good…and he’s holding it wrong,” etc. Highly useful. There’s nothing like the feeling of smug in the morning!

  25. avatar sixpack70 says:

    If I buy a 1911(it’s on the list), it won’t be to carry, but it will get used at the range to shoot often. I’ve fired four different 1911s and half of then had feeding issues. The two older models I fired were outstanding. Very nice shooting guns and I was fairly accurate with it.

  26. avatar former water walker says:

    Most of us will NEVER shoot anyone. Carry whatever you’re comfortable & proficient with.

  27. avatar SpeleoFool says:

    You know, if you’re going to carry such a beautiful sidearm it’s really a shame that you’ve got to keep it hidden. That is all.

  28. avatar ThomasR says:

    Hey Mike in GA; I think you meant to say ” as a rationale”. As for you being “boggled”, it’s OK, it doesn’t need to make sense to you, it only needs to make sense to me.

    1. avatar Michael in GA says:

      My name is Michael. I did not mean to cut you down so I hope you feel a little bigger pointing out my spelling error. I don’t care if it makes sense to you. You put your comment out there for the world to evaluate. Tell me if this makes more sense: if you are concerned about losing your weapon when you open carry then why not conceal carry?

  29. avatar Cameron says:

    We forgot that whole”look good,feel good, shoot good”mentality. It might be bulky/ heavy but I’d rather shoot my hi-power or 1911 oo model 10 any day over a snubby 357 or plastic pocket rocket. They are bad ass, if you shoot them a lot odds are you’ll shoot them well and probably have found a good retention/ draw system for them. Do I think there are better cow options? Yep but I’ve got what I got and I’m using it.

  30. avatar cubby123 says:

    I carry an ATI Fatboy 3.2 inch officers model 12 plus one 45.aloy frame so lightweight 1911 amidextetious safety.I carry Extreme Shock ammo.I have a Dessert Eagle 1911c for home defense.

  31. avatar emfourty gasmask says:

    I’ve had many a 1911 and the only one I’ve kept is a Coonan Classic. For me, my carry piece will always also be my first gun: Makarov.

    1. avatar Another Robert says:

      Like your choice.

  32. avatar Renegade Dave says:

    I get sad each day as I put on my Glock 19. A 1911 is so f’n BA I long to carry one but it doesn’t make sense on any wavelength as I shoot my G19 in competition and short of bullseye shooting, I shoot it as well as a 1911. I desperately want to carry a more awesome gun, but I just can’t get the value out of it.

    If I felt like I needed a 45, I would probably get a G30S for carry. I do use a 45 for home defense, but it is a different stripe of plastic fantastic.

  33. avatar James says:

    Special operations troops generally engage in team offense, not self defense and their primary weapons systems tend to be rifles, carbines, or submachine guns. They know they are going into harm’s way and much of the time their job is to initiate the harm. Hence, when they choose a pistol they do so knowing it will be their secondary weapon, that they will probably have a lot of notice before they need to use it, and that they can strap it on without worrying about concealment. In contrast, pistols are generally the primary weapons for most civilians outside their homes. In most cases, they must be worn concealed under a variety of different clothing. They are also self defense, not personal offense, weapons that will be used with little notice.

    I have no problem with people carrying 1911s designed for special operations use. They are fine weapons that have survived all sorts of torture and reliability tests. However, be aware that what seems light to a Soldier in full battle rattle, may not seem so feathery to a civilian in a Turnbull & Asser suit. I also prefer to carry a pistol where I don’t have to remember to flick off a manual safety before shooting in a highly stressful situation where seconds and fractions of seconds matter. However, my preference is only a preference; it is not dogma. I wish you well whether you carry howdahs or .22s.

  34. avatar cubby123 says:

    Dropping the Hammer versus pulling the trigger is a big difference.If you take a lazered revolver and fire it double action you will see the lazer climb ad you exert pressure on the trigger.If you cock the hammer in sa mode you will see the lazer stay on target.1911s are hammer release guns.

  35. avatar VF77 says:

    Man, he’s got a point – that thing is entirely Bad Assed. If I had a sweet WC .45 like that, I’d be half tempted to carry it too.

    Hey – If you can carry it comfortably and use it competently (and it is larger than .22), then go for it.

    Personally it would be a bit much for me. I like to be a little more on the concealed side and am more of a striker-fired, plastic-pistol, 40SW or 9MM type guy – but hey, to each his own.

    45 does rock, that is a beautiful piece, and I trust Nick knows what the hell he is doing…

  36. avatar A-Rod says:

    I get tired of this Glock Or 1911 debate. What is this ‘Or’ business? I got two hands.

  37. avatar rlc2 says:

    Thanks Robt good article appreciate the explanation of advantage of SIG DA/SA for at home thinking, and tip from Wilson guy on light trigger needs expert on 1911.

    Looking forward to your force on force training writeup. That might be especially useful as part of an explanation of the entire training process you have been thru, in perspective of what worked and what didnt, why, what you’d recommend to a noob.

  38. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

    I like to joke around and give the 1911 guys crap, but the reality is as long as you’re actually packing heat, I don’t care what you carry.

    But, don’t start trash talking when you’re unarmed. I’ve had more than one occasion where a friend started trashing my 9mm or .380 acp (yes, sometimes I carry a .380 and I’m not dead yet, I must be the luck one.) Only to admit their beloved gun/caliber was in the truck or at the house when I gun checked them…

    The point of a handgun is to be portable, whereas you can carry easily about your body.

    So, carry what you like, just don’t trash others when you aren’t packing heat.

    And, just to keep things on an even keel, gun check, right now…

    I’m packing a G26, right now, what’d you got on you? And, the truck or house ain’t your holster.

    1. avatar Delbert Grady says:

      Im packing fudge. Just made brownies. Putting them in Tupperware. Lets stay on topic.

      1. avatar VF77 says:

        Wo Bro. Can’t say those are words that would ever come out of my mouth

        1. avatar Delbert Grady says:

          I have no shame in being a fudgepacker. You can be a real man and pack fudge. Fudgepacking should be done in every home more often. Fudgepacking puts a smile on my face.

      2. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

        OK, 1911s suck!

        Feel better, pumpkin?

      3. avatar VF77 says:

        Re: Fudgepacking… Then I guess roll with it holmes. Good thing about being free. It’s all up to you how you wanna roll.

        1. avatar Delbert Grady says:

          Packing fudge is like shooting guns, its alot of fun. The only downside to fudgepacking is the cleanup after, but that goes without saying fudgepacking is a messy business. But at least when you are done fudgepacking you can enjoy the hard work it took.

    2. avatar SteveInCO says:

      CZ-75 compact in 9 mm.

  39. avatar Blake says:

    I love the 1911 platform and carry a Kimber Custom II. Glocks are okay, they make sturdy and reliable guns. However, Glocks are not my cup of tea, because I don’t much care for the ergonomics of the pistol. Nor do I much care for the looks of the Glock.

    Again, it’s a preference, not a knock against Glocks. I honestly don’t get the Glock hate, myself. I have a preference and an opinion, and we all know what that is worth. I freely admit, were I introducing a newbie to shooting, I would probably recommend a Glock over a 1911.

    I shoot IDPA and USPSA regularly with my carry gun. I don’t shoot for the competition ranking, I shoot to keep myself familiar with my weapon. After all, if the SHTF and I have to DGU, I’m betting my life on my carry gun. One aspect of competitive shooting is stress. No matter what, adrenaline will get going once the buzzer sounds and add some stress when shooting in a competition. Also, I will, once in a while, during a competition, shoot a couple of magazines of my +p 230 grain defensive ammunition. Otherwise, I shoot standard 45 acp loads, 230 grain ball ammo.

    An interesting anecdote: Since I started shooting IDPA and USPSA there has been a proliferation of 1911’s at my club. I was pretty much the only one shooting the 1911 during matches. For whatever reason, some of the guys my age are bringing out the 1911’s along with the younger shooters.

    1. avatar DJ says:

      Most of the guys at our local range who shoot USPSA are shooting 1911s in .38 Super.

  40. avatar TZH says:

    Hi-Cap 1911 in .40 = 19 rounds of fun. yes, I carry my competition gun. my backup’s a .380

    oh the trigger?

    If your finger’s on it you’re about shoot it!

  41. avatar Gerg McKing says:

    Guns and Guys Blow hearting about their theories and opinions….. I guess rag jawing is a time honered tradition. The 1911 has some tricky ergo (safety related) and is a big heavy beast….. Nuff said. Love the triggers on my G26 and CM9 Kahr, the Glock being the sweeter of the twotriggers, but the CM9 is awsome small and easy to shoot….. G26 is more accurate on the range and of course has more ammo capacity.

  42. avatar Eng says:

    I’m not making any argument for a “best” gun for self-defense, but relying on trigger weight/pull to govern your appropriate use of force may mean something is wrong with your approach.

  43. avatar Gregolas says:

    Robert,
    Why not ask Wilson to set the trigger at 4.5 to 5 pounds? Then you’d be within factory specs of most 1911 manufactures (and spitting distance of your G 19’s trigger pull), but you’d have a Wilson combat “glass smooth” pull and break. My stock Colt Officer’s that I carried as a prosecutor was for close up, down and dirty fast stopping power. Yet with that stock trigger friends and I have hit clay pigeons set up at 100 yards(not every time, mind you, with the significant drop). But considering the top of the line gun you’ll have, a slightly heavier trigger pull should help you be court-defensible on negligence charges AND sufficiently accurate to 25 yards and more.

  44. avatar Lawrence says:

    Having been raised on the 1911 ( the first center fire firearm I ever shot was a 1911, at age 8, having to rest it on the barbwire fence to aim it!), I find the notion that one ‘needs to remember to work the thumb safety’ rather alien.

    Do you need to remember to clear your cover garment as you draw?

    Do you need to remember to push the clutch before shifting into gear?

    It seems to me that more NDs occur during ‘administrative handling’ ( by which I mean non-firing related handling of the pistol), in which case the manual safety is a great asset.

  45. avatar Ontheotherhand says:

    I do like me some 1911 action. However I also. Eleven there are better options on the market for concealed carry. Personally I like my sig P220 carry and hk45c for carry as I can hide them a little better. One thing to keep in mind is handguns don’t see nearly as much use overseas as many people think. Many guys never shoot anybody witha pistol, and i say those in the community who carry a 1911 typically are a niche, as for many groups it’s not standard issue. Most guys I know carry issue weapons simply because they don’t want to be out 2+ grand if something happens to the gun.

  46. avatar Lawrence says:

    Oh, and as for the 3.5 lbs trigger-IMX,most out of the box 1911s fall around 5-6 lb triggers.

    3.5 lbs is the minimum pull for NRA competition ( and other groups I’d suspect). In my youth, someone told me that was because 3.5 lbs was the weight of a loaded 1911.

  47. avatar Ryan Jones says:

    Guns are like shoes many will fit a foot, but only one shoe will be right for the owner of said foot.

    To the grammar Nazis unless you’re writing a doctoral thesis, you can suck a proverbial fat one you nags.

    1. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

      Yeah, I’m going to need you to write a lengthy dissertation on exactly what the “proverbial fat one” is and how one said “nag” would go about sucking it…

      Proper citations, please. Header, footnotes, no grammatical errors, double spaced, etc. You know the drill.

      I will assemble the panel to sit for you, be ready to defend in two months.

      And good luck.

    2. avatar Jay Williams says:

      Does it make one a “grammar NAZI” to correct someone who completely and utterly slaughters the English language? Someone who writes like a 2nd grader?

    3. avatar ropingdown says:

      Ryan: If they are writing a ‘doctoral’ something, it’s a ‘dissertation.’ They’ve probably already written a masters thesis at some point.

      Oh….that’s amazing…I feel the transformation happening… “Websters Collegiate Dictionary heil!”

  48. avatar James says:

    A 1911 is only dangerous if you refuse to train yourself on it. Triggers can be adjusted, they are not all hair triggers as you like to call them. If you are a typical homeowner then you should have a heavier trigger than someone who is proficient with that weapon. As far as holding less, well, you only need one well placed shot to do the job, which again goes back to training. If you are going to carry and your don’t train as least once a month,(minimum), then you should not be carrying.

  49. avatar mb says:

    “I hardly consider myself an expert on anything other than the inadvisability of marrying beautiful women”

    Truer words were never spoken. Lol.

  50. avatar Delbert Grady says:

    1911s are best for trained operators and Glocks are best for skilled handlers.

  51. avatar Jay In Florida says:

    Having owned and carried a 1911 since day one.
    I do believe my 30+ years of use with it has gotten me to the point where my finger doesn’t touch the trigger till Im sure Im going to shoot it.
    That being said my house gun is for the same reasons an EAA Witness which is a great CZ75 clone also in 45acp left in double action mode.
    As until Im fully awake. I don’t feel I need a 3.5 trigger for my 1st shot.

    1. avatar Michael in GA says:

      I am playing around with an EAA .45 on loan from a buddy. At first my shot groups were within my back yard. Now I can put all ten rounds on a six inch plate from 15 yards in under 5 seconds. Accuracy lies in trigger time with the weapon. You can’t judge the gun after one magazine. I love the DA option with that pistol. It is quite a pull but not uncontrollable. 1911s have safeties due to the lack of a DA option. I love striker fire but if I ever own a pistol with a hammer, it will be DA/SA.

  52. avatar Alpo says:

    I’m still stuck on the part where a gun writer relies on a pistol “for protecting home and hearth”.

  53. avatar ThomasR says:

    Hey Michael in GA; I don’t have reply tab on my mobile this is the best I can do for now.

    I don’t’ get the impression you’re looking for a discussion; I’m getting you’re looking for a fight; but I’ll give it a shot.

    I OC here in NM because I can do so without a permit; I don’t believe in making a right into privilege by getting a permit. I can carry an unloaded weapon concealed without a permit;which I had done; but having to load a weapon to use it I never liked. So I decided To OC.

    Now that I’ve OC’d for the last four years; I prefer it this way. If we went constitutional carry, I would CC at times , but I wouldn’t give up OC.

    1. avatar Michael in GA says:

      You first said you carry both ways and used different guns for each situation. You stated that you changed to the 1911 when open carrying in case you have your gun taken in a struggle. Don’t change the facts that were given in your first comment to make my argument less valid. Don’t make this personal. I don’t care what you do. I comment on {insert user name} posts based on the generic content within the body. I know I will not change your mind. I am simply trying to apply logic to the overall topic. If I wanted to pick a fight with you then we could do that via private messaging. Aint nobody got time for that! This is a public discussion forum and I believe it is only worth subscribing to if all sides have a say. I could have stated my opinion in a separate post but it makes more sense and retains context if I reply directly to the statement that I would be referring to, the statement, not you.

  54. avatar laser1911 says:

    R.F.s almost silly epectations about 1911s and their rediculously sime msnual of arms, carry and use sometimes makes me winder if he ever shot a gun before starting this website.

    I shoot a glock well. I always carry a 1911 as that is the gun I know and shoot the best. It is the manual of arms I use to.

    My 1911s, Ruger mark II, P238, heck my M-forgery, all have the same controls.

    To each their own. Be proud.

    1. avatar Alpo says:

      “R.F.s almost silly epectations about 1911s and their rediculously sime msnual of arms, carry and use sometimes makes me winder…”

      Seriously?

  55. avatar ThomasR says:

    To Michael in GA; now you’re not making much sense. In my first post; I made a general statement about CC of a Glock and a statement about OC of a 1911 and the reason for each. But without the underlying philosophy for this decision or any background.

    You asked me why I chose to OC a 1911 instead of CC and I answered with some underlying beliefs about why I chose to OC versus CC. So I’m not sure what you mean when you say I’m changing what I said; to me; I was filling in background info; not changing that info.

  56. avatar seans says:

    Can people stop saying special operation forces (special forces means army green berets) love 1911s. Look up what Cag went to, Glocks. The teams use Sigs and HKs for suppressed work, Damneck runs sigs and glocks, and rangers recce guys and special forces use Glocks. Now Marsoc did go full retard and adopt the 1911, but Marsoc isn’t exactly known for making good decisions right now. Once we have another war were room clearing becomes important, 1911s go to the wayside, they make horrible defensive handguns when you are wounded, its why Cag got rid of them, and they were running theirs with the grip safety either taped or zip tied down.

    1. avatar El Mac says:

      @seans, Lots of hate bro. Walk away from it.

    2. avatar Another Robert says:

      What’s “cag”? And while you’re at it, what’s Damneck? Thanks–

      1. avatar El Mac says:

        @Another Robert, he means the D-boys and 6.

        1. avatar Another Robert says:

          OK, thanks–just went to Glock Talk via Google, evidently they are using Glocks as are Ranger recon. Rangers generally apparently using M9. I’m always interested in why our military wasn’t using Glocks I assume it was because they lost out in the tests ( I do know an ex-AF flight mechanic, she said she had to qualify with a Glock years ago, but that isn’t exactly first-line use).

        2. avatar seans says:

          The biggest reason glocks are just not widespread is lack of manual safety, and for the majority of people who carry a pistol, the M9 is adequate. The units that found the M9 not up to par use something else. And glock never entered in the XM9 trials.

        3. avatar El Mac says:

          @seans, et al – and those that do carry Glocks, some would prefer not to. From personal experience in theater, I had a G19 quite on me. The slide locked up after one round. Too much moon dust.

        4. avatar Another Robert says:

          Actually, someone on the board noted that the “manual safety” is a preferred, not required, element, and that other safety-less pistols got much farther in the testing process than Glocks. I’m just interested, Glocks seem to be so ubiquitous in LE officialdom, and in some militaries (from Sweden to IDF), kind of a mystery to me why the US military doesn’t follow suit. Maybe they don’t like plastic??

        5. avatar El Mac says:

          @Another Robert, because the mil has a huge contract with Beretta.

        6. avatar Another Robert says:

          @ El Mac–But Beretta only got the contract after the other competitors, including Glock, were eliminated, right?

      2. avatar ropingdown says:

        Cag = Combat Applications Group, also known as ACE, terms used by people who don’t want to just say “Delta” because they’re not supposed to.

        Damneck is Dam Neck, VA. Fleet combat training center, also the main Intelligence training center. Sometimes it’s used as shorthand for Little Creek naval amphibious training center as well.

        Small parts failure, stress cracks in the metal, requiring x-ray’ing the small parts before deployment. The 1911’s were eating budget and adding too much weight.

        1. avatar seans says:

          Damneck is not a shorthand for Little Creek. Little Creek is the location of the East Coast numbered seal teams. Damneck is the location of Devgru. Two different locations. Its a way of distinguishing between Devgru and the regular teams.

          And as for the 1911s and the cost of maintenance. One of the unit guys I talked to about that said that is pretty much the official reason they went away from them, even mentioned the x-rays. And then said that they went away from them due to a multiple occurrences of wounded operators not being able to effectively use their 1911s, and were just not going to straight admit that they had invested so much time in a gun that was a unit image/heritage thing that wasn’t working out for them.

        2. avatar ropingdown says:

          I know exactly what and where Little Creek is. By short hand I simply meant, for SEALs. Why not just call DEVGRU…DEVGRU. It isn’t as though they never use Little Creek.

          It is interesting, what you say about the semi-official reason versus the “it just didn’t work out” reason. Well, that is the way the military works (many corporations, too). I can’t imagine wanting to carry extra weight or complexity on a long hike or run. It makes sense. In my day (I’m 62) the SF, at least the ones we flew around (CCN) were still very into the Hi-Power. They had a few suppressed PPKs. They had a fabulous ordinance shed and gun room (I don’t know what they called the room with peg boards holding 8 or 10 of every military rifle, carbine, and sub gun I’d ever heard of. But nonetheless they usually just went out with their short carbines.

          It was a very different world. There were no satellite communications, just radios up to the small plane running communications. Choppers weren’t adequately equipped for instrument flight, had no hover stabilization, no night vision. Nobody came home in the dark. I can’t imagine what it was like knowing that, and being stuck on the ground.

          When I drink with friends from those particular days, nobody talks about guns. They talk about politics, sports, divorces, and ask “how can we make money? What stocks should we buy?” Actually, if you’re a sick small unit guy and call the after-hours number for medical care in the Virginia Beach/Norfolk/Portsmouth area, you’ll get one of them on the phone. He retired as a bird colonel physician last at MacDill, and is now a Navy civilian doc, for the time. People get bored. Especially that kind of people. Best.

  57. avatar Martin B says:

    Let’s remember a few things. 1911s have been around for over a century, Glocks a little less than that, so collective experience will be less. The Colt was designed to shoot horses – this was originally a cavalry arm. The Army insisted on a grip safety before adopting it. It has mechanical parts, so things can go wrong. The Glock has fewer parts, but can sometimes explode in the hand. Both can go horribly wrong if mishandled.

    The idea of putting something into writing is that someone else can understand what you have written. If you go too far into the current argot or textspeak, this limits your audience. Simple errors can be explained by haste and/or limited education. And expression of vocal phrases sometimes needs less than grammatical typing. But it helps if we read what we have typed before pressing
    “Post Comment”, just to ensure that what we have written is what we want to say.
    Sloppiness is laziness, and a little thought can prevent the onslaught of Grammar Nazi intervention.

    That said, I love reading all the comments on this site, there are some very original thinkers here, not all of whom express themselves with the erudition of a scholar.
    Keep it up.

  58. avatar Ben Parsons says:

    Concealed carry a Colt Commander regularly for long time before recent switch to M&P Shield .40.
    Monthly practice draw & shoot never had a premature/unintended discharge with either. Not saying I never will, but never did.
    Never once, till now, did I consider a possible/potential trigger problem with the Colt.
    My habit with both (any) is not to unsafe or touch the trigger till I’ve made the decision to loose.

  59. avatar Arod529 says:

    Holy shit… Finger off the trigger unless you want to fire… problem solved…

  60. avatar Crunkleross says:

    It’s 2014 and the term “hair trigger” is still being used by professional writers? Good grief. It’s ironic that the people who point out the 1911’s short crisp trigger as a liability while ignoring the thumb safety and praising the little plastic bit on the plastic pistols triggers as quite enough safety. To be clear I don’t hate the other pistols, it’s just that from the very first time I fired one (I started out a die hard revolver man) I was hooked by how easy it was for me to shoot well. If my life is on the line why should I use anything less? I encourage everyone else to make their choices based on their own judgment.

    For those that don’t know the thumb safety on a 1911 locks the sear and blocks the hammer, the grip safety only blocks trigger movement (like the plastic guns tab on the trigger), some variations add a firing pin block in the mix.

    Correct training with the 1911 has focus on the use of the thumb safety as well as keeping your finger out of the trigger guard. It’s been a few years since I was instructing but the places I worked we spent enough time on it to make sure everyone got it right.

    Early Combat Competition that evolved into IPSC required you to engage your thumb safety if you were going to move more than a couple of steps as well as the finger off the trigger. They dropped the thumb safety rule when ROs complained they had problems seeing if the competitor actually did engage his thumb safety while running a course. I was in the minority believing we should have kept that rule. My starting point with the 1911 was in the 70’s and so the thumb safety on and off was a rule and so I learned to do it correctly. If you use the 1911 thumb safety correctly it could be said it’s a safer pistol than the plastic striker pistols without one.

    I can already hear people screaming that you will forget to disengage the thumb safety under stress. I believe if you are not willing to put the time in to learn how to do that you are not training enough to carry a gun for serious purposes. The problem is the plastic striker pistol people have pushed the thought that thumb safeties are unsafe well enough that it has become Dogma.

    If you want to carry a 1911 take a course at a school that specializes in 1911’s and teaches the correct way to used them. If you are the kind of person that hears a noise and thinks what is that…oh it’s my phone…maybe I should answer it, or sees something in the road and has to think what to do before applying the brakes possibly forgetting the brake pedal location…or can’t remember how to …well a 1911 is probably not for you.

    I went from a serious competition background shooting straight into a law enforcement career as a criminal investigator. My first job allowed me to carry a 1911 so I did, the thought occurred to me that I had been practicing all these years to draw and fire but hardly ever to draw and not fire. It didn’t take long for me to learn the answer and I passed the test by not shooting automatically after drawing. I did use my safety and the 1911 served me well at every assignment I was allowed to use it.

    Last I heard John May no longer works for Wilson Combat, might want to fact check that.

    1. avatar El Mac says:

      @Crunkleross, Excellent post sir!

    2. avatar Michael in GA says:

      Good argument for preferring the 1911. No mention of reliability though. I am sure you will say you never had a malfunction and that may be true. All guns can fail. Part of good training is learning how to get the weapon back in the fight and how to survive while doing it. I like my striker fire polymer frame pistol sans manual safety. I don’t even see the need for the trigger safety as I think it is a marketing ploy only. This was proven when the police chief had a ND when he shared holster space with a drawstring. All firearms are dangerous and should be respected regaurdless of buttons and switches besides the trigger.

      1. avatar El Mac says:

        @Michael in GA, I’ll gladly stack my 1911 up against a polymer any day of the week and twice on Sunday. And in the FWIW category, I’ve seen more, far more, ND/ADs with Glocks than any other pistol on the line. SIG decocker comes in a distant second. 1911s, only seen one when a doofus thought he knew better than his trainers in his younger days and tried “lowering the hammer” on a loaded chamber despite being warned repeatedly not to. Fortunately, I didn’t skip the other rules about pointing it in a safe direction.

  61. avatar William Burke says:

    “But they don’t practice not firing their gun – as military and police special units do.”

    God help us all if they ever stop training to not fire their guns.

  62. avatar Out_Fang_Thief says:

    Ya, sure it’s badass,…for old time tech. I’m sure there are people in the military who are fond of the Lewis gun, but that doesn’t mean we should send our troops into combat with them. The meth-head punk breaking into your castle will not give a seconds thought to how badass the gun you’re pointing at him is. “Hey, the guy’s pointing a .45 1911 icon at me, I’d better withdraw before I’m figuratively blown away from the sheer badassness of that gun.” Ya, like that’s going to happen.

    At least you got the Sig P226 MK25, which takes an extended 20 rd mag. With one in the pipe, that’s 21 shots. For the 1911, that’s what, 3 mag changes, with the steely discipline to keep the last round in the chamber when you eject a mag and slam in another one. That’s when counting your shots plays an important role….if you counted your shots. In a DGU, the ability to put out 20 rounds of uninterrupted fire before needing to reload beats the 7 shot, 3x reload vintage icon…all week and twice on Sunday. Contrary to the #1 rule about ammo, with the 1911, there is such a thing as too much. Bettin’ on lucky number 7? Not I.

    1. avatar El Mac says:

      @Out_Fang_Thief, yep…it ain’t for everyone.

  63. avatar possumdog says:

    A gun, is a gun, is a gun. Whether the trigger is a 2lb SAO or a 12lb DAO pull if your finger is in the the trigger gaurd when it is not supposed to be, that is shooter error. Having a heavy trigger to protect against an ND is like wearing a helmet and firesuit on the drive to work, just in case you lose the ability to drive properly that day. Not carrying a 1911 just because the trigger is “too light” is nonsense from a tactical standpoint. Now from a lawyer standpoint after a dgu…. ehh i will stick with my un-modded Glock. Them lawyers love to call performance modifications on guns “murder enhancers”. No thanks!

    1. avatar ropingdown says:

      People who suffer in court because they had a trigger modified to be lighter are people who shot under circumstances the jury does not approve as reasonable. Sometimes an accused voluntarily places his defense on a pyre by saying something incredibly foolish like “I didn’t mean to shoot. The gun has a light trigger. He startled me with his cursing and the gun just went off.” “So you did have the gun pointed at him?” Next. I suppose the rule is “don’t point your modified gun at a perp if ‘it going off’ would not be lawful.”

      It makes me laugh when I think about it: Why weren’t the Western movies filled with talk about the problems of modified guns, “the bad guy lost ’cause his gun was second rate,” and “six rounds? You must be kidding!” I think the whole gun thing has become way over-complicated.

  64. avatar Mike says:

    Keep your finger off the trigger until you have a clear sight picture and are ready to fire…..so if your NOT shooting someone your finger should NOT BE ON THE TRIGGER

    1. avatar El Mac says:

      @Mike, Amen brother.

  65. avatar Bob Canning says:

    Carrying a .45 Remington R1 wasn’t a choice for me, but did work to fit my needs.(Alright, secretly I wanted one also. I like the American-ness of it, too!), Arthritis has changed my ability to properly and efficiently use a double stack platform handgun. Previous EDC was a S&W 469. Changing the STOCKS on the R1(Alumagrip low profile) for proper GRIP(Grammar nazi coming out), made it a dream to shoot and gave me a shooting grip at the holster before drawing. Now, if these IWB type companys would make a full vertical carry by making the kydex pistol mould attached at 90 degrees to the hide initially(and NOT by simply adjusting the belt clips, you like them chafing on your thigh when you sit?) All would be well in my world.

    Full vertical carry, either IWB/OWB, at the mid strong side is the only proper place to carry ones EDC. Any canted carry position, will add time to your presentation to threat, due to bowling or clothing interference and subsequently will put you behind the 8-ball in addressing a threat.
    Small of back, canted carry LOOKS cool, but you sweep everything and everyone from your 6 to your 12 o’clock position in the process as well as adding time to target, a very big no-no, yes? Carry on my Fellow Second Amendment Patriots!

  66. avatar Mike Hyde says:

    Well, that was fun. I love my full size 1911 in a shoulder holster but, too heavy for edc. Mostly carry my PPK inside the waistband. The 1911 is a wonderful firearm though. I carry it on special occasions. Always feel a little more secure with the .45. Anybody try the poly-framed 1911? Forget who’s making it. Could be the perfect full size ccw gun.

  67. avatar mitc says:

    God bless the 1911 trigger. If you can not put the time and resources necessary into learning it buy a Glock. Most every average Glock shooter I know shoots low left (in stress mode) from having to apply the required pressure to make it go band.
    To each his own thanks goodness.

  68. avatar paul hughes says:

    1911 was designed to be carried with empty chamber unless threat imminent. If you actually have the need to carry a round in the chamber at all times, you need to move and/or get another job. Glocks are no different.

    True, gun hoicides are more frequent than accidental gun deaths, but the vast majority of gun homicides are of people invovled in crime. So, if you are a drug dealer, cocked and locked might be the way to go.

  69. avatar Tim says:

    Not all 1911’s style weapons have “hair” triggers. This whole article seems to be predicated on the fact that they do. A Kimber Micro 9 or Sig 938 are examples of ones that don’t, and both make very dandy little SD weapons. Also, I find that having a weapon in SA mode, be it a DA/SA or a 1911 makes me extra aware that I must be careful. The accuracy one gains in a single action pull is obvious. In fact training to use a DA trigger to shoot accurately is far more exhaustive and the user is less likely to attain a high level of accuracy than a SA. And remember, your finger and the trigger are always the best safety mechanisms. Must MOHO.

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