Jason Castro's mug shot (courtesy suntimes.com)

“Samantha Radjenovic, 30, said she was in her car, waiting for classes to end, when a motorist tried to parallel park his SUV into a tiny parking space behind her, outside the Chicago Public School in the 4800 block of W. Dickens Ave.” Having read the headline above the post, you know where this is going. Even so, I bet you still shake your head when you read of innocent Americans brutalized by bad guys. At least, I hope so. “First the driver backed the SUV into the spot ­— striking a van in the process, Radjenovic said on Sunday when reached by phone. Then the driver pulled forward, ramming her car, she said. When Radjenovic got out to snap a cellphone photo of the vehicle’s license plate, and informed the driver, a man, that she would be filing an insurance claim, he went ballistic, she said . . .

“I felt my bones cracking. There were about 50 people in their cars and nobody came to stop it,” Radjenovic told the Sun-Times. “Nobody did anything.”

The attacker, later identified as Castro, punched Radjenovic 13 times in the face, breaking an eye socket, her nose and loosening her teeth, Cook County prosecutors said in court.

Would you intervene? Some gun gurus say no – not unless you’re absolutely sure who’s attacking whom for what reason. In other words, you need to know the whole story. If you don’t, you don’t. And you could mistake a good guy for a bad guy. And even if you do know the players without a scorecard, intervening puts you and your family at risk. Is it worth it?

Then again, human nature -the good part – suggests that most of our readers would do something to stop the violence. And I certainly hope that you would rush to provide aid to the victim after the attack. Check this:

Radjenovic said she then crumpled to the pavement. Her attacker, she said, then grabbed a small child from his vehicle as she stumbled to the front of the school. Court records indicate he fled the scene on foot.

When she reached the front door of the school the day of the alleged attack, staff inside the school were not willing to help, Radjenovic said.

“A woman came out and said, ‘This didn’t happen at school, we’re not going to help,’” Radjenovic said. A parent with a cellphone called 911 instead, Radjenovic said.

While CPS officials sent a nurse out to wipe her face with gauze, they barred her from entering while detaining her son inside. Eventually an ambulance took her to Our Lady of the Resurrection Medical Center, according to a Chicago Police report. Her son was released to the custody of his grandparents, she said.

CPS spokesman Joel Hood declined to comment on the alleged attack.

“I’m just disappointed in the school system,” Radjenovic said. “Nobody wanted to get in involved. The whole side of the school was facing the street. Everyone was able to see what was going on.”

I could have filed this story under This Is What Happens to a Disarmed Populace. Because the bystanders’ reaction – or lack thereof – is a symptom of a populace inured to violence and, at the same time, terrified by it.

In any case, it should have been a defensive gun use. Jason Castro [above] should have faced the business end of, say, a Smith & Wesson snub-nosed revolver, just as Chicago must face the fact that it takes an armed citizenry to create a civilized society. [h/t NQ]

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133 Responses to It Should Have Been A Defensive Gun Use: Chicago Mom Beating Edition

  1. If i see that situation going down, im clearing leather, mostly because risking your life in jail to save someone else is better than what most people are doing every day.
    Additionally, you have the option to stop a situation without a shoot, and cops show up a lot faster when they hear gun instead of fight.
    Ideally, smoking this rage fueled idiot would be better for society than allowing a predator to roam our streets

    • “clearing Leather” = Bad idea unless,
      You see a weapon in his hands
      You or someone else is in imminent life threatening danger.( A good weaponless beat down is not considered life threatening in a court of law. )
      You intend to shoot that person.

      Our jails and prisons are full of previously armed people who come to the aid of another. Even if the guy is the scum of the earth , you would be amazed how many caring and loving relatives come out of the woodwork when they get waxed.

      The road to vindication in defending your well intended actions will leave you broke, homeless and jobless. and a convicted felon.

      • “A good weaponless beat down is not considered life threatening in a court of law.”

        I’m pretty sure a large man beating the hell out of a woman’s face and head until she crumpled to the pavement qualifies as great bodily harm, especially given the disparity of force.

        • Don’t shoot the messenger, I agree, logic would dictate otherwise, but… Im just spreading the rules of the road per my Concealed weapons class.. Given by the retired police chief of a eastern Oregon city, that has real time,legal experience in cases like these.. Mose intelligent people learn from other peoples mistakes, “Jails and prisons are full of people who thought they knew the law”

        • Obviously, SD/deadly force laws vary wildly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. And I’m not trusting a CCL class instructor to necessarily know the nuances, even within his own jurisdiction. I will say that right now, in Texas, deadly force may even be employed to protect property, in some circumstances, let alone against a physical attack threatening death OR “serious bodily injury”. And at least as far as the Penal Code goes, a broken eye socket or nose itself would count as serious bodily injury.

        • While caution in these instances is certainly advisable, I have to question the value of a class on carrying a weapon that emphasizes all the reason why you should NEVER use the damn thing.

          I have the same problem with professional trainers whose major advice is that whenever possible you should seek an exit and RUN AWAY!

          The purpose of the weapon is not just to protect your own worthless existence, but to protect yourself and your society from evil. In any confrontation you stand the risk of being injured or killed, even if you are armed. If you draw your weapon in defense of yourself or someone else, in good faith, you still stand the risk of being injured by an over-zealous prosecutor. But can you balance the risk of injury against the daily knowledge that you had the chance to protect someone from harm and did not through your own cowardice?

          I contend that if you see a violent crime being committed, and you have the means and opportunity to intervene, and you DO NOT intervene, you are as guilty of any and all harm to the victim as if your perpetrated the crime yourself. Risk of prosecution aside, I don’t know how I could look at myself in the mirror or face my family after that. YMMV.

      • “You or someone else is in imminent life threatening danger.( A good weaponless beat down is not considered life threatening in a court of law. )”

        Which court decisions and/or statutes say this? I’d like to take a look at them.

        • My instructors name is Grant Asher…He was the Police Chief of Hermiston Oregon.. I take his instructions as gospel..

        • If the woman had been carrying, she would have been more than justified in popping this guy once the beating started. As an armed bystander would be acting to protect her life and limb, the threat to her life is no less.
          While I would not open with a shot, if my intervention were to cause him to shift his aggression toward me, then I would defend myself accordingly. As hands and feet kill more people than rifles in this country per year, I am considering his already demonstrated punching prowess as a deadly threat.

        • There is only ONE Gospel, and several billion people on this planet don’t even agree on that.

          You should take the information provided by a trainer, especially that of a politically appointed police official, as interesting and informative and worthy of consideration, but NEVER as Gospel. He will not come to testify at your trial, even if you followed his advice to the letter and are prosecuted anyway.

          Many people and many trainers have very good advice to offer. But it is just opinion and advice. It is YOUR responsibility as a gun owner to review and consider that advice measured against the real world. If this gentleman was such an acknowledged expert he would be in as great demand as Mass Ayoob, and most of us have never heard his name previously. And as good as Ayoob is I don’t even take his pronouncements as Gospel, only probably pretty good advice.

      • A larger man assaulting a smaller woman, even without a per se weapon, is considered a lethal attack due to the concept of disparity of force. I disagree with the previous gentleman in his assertion that the accused would be better off ventillated, as that is not the purpose of a DGU, but if you come armed to the aid of a smaller weaker victim being attacked by a single individual significantly bigger and stronger than they or being attacked by multiple aggressors, you are not necessarily on unstable legal ground. Try to avoid shooting, but by all means try to force a stop to the immediate violence. Let the cops sort it out when they get there.

        • Josh, by all means if you know the law, on lethal force then go for it…
          Im just saying, I was taught differently and thought I would pass it along.. Im all about freedom of choice.

        • I know of at least one case of a man who was confronted at his doorstep by a much larger man. The larger man punched the smaller man ONCE, which caused the smaller man to empty 7 rounds of 45 in the larger man, killing him. That was ruled as justified, albeit after a trial. If that was justified, I see absolutely no reason why you shouldn’t clear leather when you see an unarmed woman getting savagely pummeled in public.

          In fact, I think I will pull a Yaeger on this one: if you don’t clear leather, or at least attempt to stop him, you are an absolutely pathetic human.

        • “I disagree with the previous gentleman in his assertion that the accused would be better off ventilated, as that is not the purpose of a DGU…”

          You are absolutely correct that this is not the purpose of a DGU, however, this does not change the FACT that the “accused” would be better off ventilated.

        • OCD, another thing i was taught was the unintended consequences of lethal force.. True Zimmerman beat the manslaughter rap…But he lives under a microscope now, He cant fart without it making headlines, and how many strangers who didn’t agree with the verdict try to instigate shit with him?. which is an acceptable trade off for some… But not for me

        • Zimmerman wouldn’t have such a microscope on his case IF it wasn’t for the fact his case was morphed into a racial incident by those looking to make it one. Had Martin been White or Hispanic, the case would NEVER have had the amount of attention it had.

      • In re guards to if lethal force is justified is covered by Massad Ayoob and his Disparity of Force. What I am not sure about is Illinois law. Does it only apply to the person being attacked or does it apply to someone seeing a stranger being attacked?

        http://youtu.be/EsQeTKnD_f0

        • Im not taking the advice of a man who hasnt killed anyone but never stops talking about it

      • “A good weaponless beat down is not considered life threatening in a court of law.”

        What planet are you from? People die everyday from being beaten by fists. By the blunt trauma from the beating or from falling unconscious and hitting the ground. A man is beating a woman bloody and you do nothing? Having some trouble deciding who is in the wrong here? I see a man beating a woman, I draw my gun and yell stop! Failure to obey my words will get you shot. If “nothing” is the best you can do while armed, then leave your gun at home. At least you’ll be able to tell yourself that there was nothing you could do without sounding like an abject coward whose personal carry motto is everyone for himself. Would you have done nothing if that was YOUR wife, or your friend’s wife? You’ll face the same legal ramifications you list if you do. What now? Sorry honey, he wasn’t really going to kill you because he was only using his fists? I can’t wait to hear her response to your decision to “not clear leather.”

        • hey dude, pull your Fangs in nobody said I would do nothing, but I sure as hell wouldnt fire on an unarmed guy, but you go ahead… Im just telling you what I was taught, and who taught me….. you think you can justify your actions and shoot the guy go ahead!!… do a mag dump on his ass for all I care…

          In fact, later against the advice of your lawyer, you can pull up your post and read it to the media. Im sure it will cement the outcome of the following criminal and later the civil suit that are sure to follow.

        • At least if it was your wife you would be able to eliminate the question of what the circumstances were.

      • fuque, you are incorrect. a “weaponless beatdown” most certainly has been found to justify lethal responses in court. for example, in the Zimmerman case.

      • @fuque: just to pile on here, but if that’s what you were told, that A good weaponless beat down is not considered life threatening in a court of law then you were taught wrong. Additionally, many jurisdictions allow the use of deadly force for acts that merely create the “reasonable fear of great bodily harm” (which most certainly applies here).

        Furthermore, use of deadly force is allowable in some places to prevent a “forcible felony.” See Florida, for example F.S. 776.031:

        the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

        A forcible felony is (776.08):

        “Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

        • I will never choose to live in a state where I cannot use force to stop a forcible felony.

      • Wasnt there a case a little while ago where a guy shot a black teen who was beating his head into the ground and it was found to be self defense. oh yeah it was the Zimmerman trial. And I think most on this site agreed it was a good shoot. There was no weapon in the teens hands either.

      • “A good weapon less beat down is not considered life threatening in a court of law”.

        What the h&ll are you talking about? I’m sorry, but not where I live.

      • So, some guy is raping your wife, and there is no blood, or death threats, things are okie dokie ? Maybe you might ask if it’s consensual.

    • “…cops show up a lot faster…” which is another reason to be very careful when intervening. When the Po-Po show up they are going to assume that YOU are the threat particularly in places like Chicago. This is particularly problematic if you actually shoot the guy. I feel for her for sure and I would probably attempt to help her but “clearing leather”? No, not unless he directly threatened me.

      We are not the police people. So flame away if you must…

      • “When the Po-Po show up they are going to assume that YOU are the threat particularly in places like Chicago.”

        You mean when they show up, see a woman on the ground with her face caved in, and a douchebag on the ground with bloody hands and a few bullet holes in his chest. I’m pretty sure most Chicago cops would say thank you and offer to buy you beer. However, what the corrupt pols and D.A. do might be different.

        • What they are going to see Jack is you standing there with a gun in your hand and two bodies on the ground. For all they know you shot them both! That’s a good way to get ventilated and for what, to save someone you don’t know who is getting beaten by someone you don’t know under circumstances that you don’t know or understand? All I’m saying is that you are putting yourself in a very bad position. You will be disarmed, probably forcefully, arrested, jailed and put into the system until they, or a judge, can sort it all out.

        • Well you see, after you put the asshole down, you reholster the gun. In the unlikely event they show up while you’re still holding it. You drop it on the ground and put your hands up.

          Look, once police arrive on scene, they need to take control of the situation and try to figure out what happened. They’re gonna ask pointed questions and probably act like dicks to try to rattle you and see if you change your story. That’s their job.

          You’re right, I don’t have a duty to help that woman any more than the cops do. But the very bad situation is happening in front of you whether you choose to intervene or not. All you guys worrying about how potentially saving a life might inconvenience you after the fact are missing the point of why we carry guns. If you have visions of being a hero in a wild west shootout where the bad guys are all wearing black hats and bandanas, so be it. But if you ever need to use your gun, it’ll probably be a situation a lot more like this one.

        • An easier way to look at this, IMHO, is this: if that was my wife/girlfriend who was being beat down, would you not want someone to intervene? I would hope that someone would not pull the excuses of the neighborhood when Kitty Genovese was beaten and killed in New York: “I just didn’t want to get involved.”

    • Yep.. except this is CHI… CAG… OOO. CHICAGO. Land of the toll booth every 100 feet. Land of the gangbanger every 200 ft. Land of the police officer every 2 miles.

      Once the police arrived, they would either shoot you on sight for just holding a gun (because if you are holding a gun you are immediately the bad guy) and if they didn’t shoot you on site, they would have tasered you, followed by batons, followed by a dislocated shoulder when picking your rag-doll body of the ground by your arms. You won’t be acquitted (the anti-gun Chicago populace will ensure that). Also, you will never see your firearm again.

      Chicago police chief: We’ll shoot licensed civilians with guns:
      http://www.gunssavelife.com/?p=4552

      However, I agree. Something should have been done.

      • You’d probably be ok with most Chicago cops, except the command structure. Your problem would be with the Cook County State’s Attorney’s office, which is run by a waste of skin named Anita Alvarez. She’s on record as believing that the average citizen should not have the right to carry-or even own- a gun.

        The first cases involving a CCW holder and a DGU in Chicago should be interesting.

  2. Like Kitty Genovese, this woman just learned the hard way that you can’t rely on others to defend you, especially in a city.

      • No, I must’ve missed that one. I’ll have to go look it up. Her case always interested me. I grew up in a small town where if a woman had a flat tire on the side of the road 3 people would stop to change the tire for her. The concept of all those people looking on while Kitty was attacked and doing nothing always stunned me.

    • The lesson of the Kitty Genovese story isn’t that nobody helped. It is that people called the police, relying on them to help, and…..the police didn’t respond in time to do any good. The self-defense angle of the 2nd amendment (and the PA state constitution) exists to empower citizens. The state cannot possibly provide enough police to intervene in most attacks, and practicality teaches that no number of police could be on the spot in time anyway.

    • Almost the entirety of that story was sensationalized BS from a newspaper trying to sell more copies.

        • No, she wasn’t. But when the story was originally in the news it was played up as the new icon of “the uncaring city,” one in which so many residents saw what was happening but did nothing. In fact many people did call the police, but the police did not respond on the scene.

          Many people believe the story was spun to prevent embarrassment of the PD, and to obviate anger toward them and the politicians.

        • In cases where a “reasonable man” should understand who is right, who is wrong, and what should be done to stop the offense, calling the police should be in addition to actually doing something, not instead of actually doing something.

          The fact that there are police, and that we are NOT police, does not absolve us of any responsibility to try to intervene in another person’s defense. The very simplicity of the “reasonable man” consideration must be, if it was happening to YOU, would you expect or hope for someone to come to your defense?

  3. It’s stories like this that remind me of our society’s diminishing morals.
    How could they just stand and watch like a flock of sheep witnessing a slaughter?
    Shame on you America. -_-

    • I woud say “Shame on you Chicago”. There are plenty of places in the US where this guy would be at room temperature now.

      • Agree with this. Repeatedly I hear the urban voices say “you can’t intervene. You’ll go to jail.” I assume it is true, and that the cities have been shaped culturally to suit the PD’s desires, not the legitimate rights of the citizens. One-party political machines inevitably give their voters what they deserve?

    • Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. Why is this a question?

      Ambiguous situations are just that…unclear. People have been killed by beatings and there is a disparity of force issue in play.

      If he was a ‘good guy’ and we, the third party, were making an erroneous read of the situation, he could certainly stop what he’s doing

      (a) before the woman was beat down that badly
      (b) when confronted with another “good guy,” and especially “good guy with a gun.”

      Sorry, but even questioning the read on this one fails the smell test.

      Watching a person get beat potentially to death and doing nothing to intervene is reprehensible.

      • In my township this “watch and do nothing” would not happen, and has not. Instead people have come forward, armed, to help the victim, and to help the police corral the suspect.

        The “watch and don’t help” reality is part of the “don’t rat” culture. It is the culture of disarmed people who feel more fear of the cops, DA, and perpetrator than love of their fellow citizen.

    • While this might have been a clear case, as was mentioned, if you don’t know the whole story, it’s hard to know who the “bad” person is.

      It wouldn’t be inappropriate to call 911, break it up and have both parties disengage and let the cops figure out what happened – that’s something they’re supposed to be good at.

      Everything situation is different – hard to know what you would perceive and do in response; in this case, I hope I’d know who the bad actor is and work to help.

      • I’m sorry to be repetitive on this, but if I see a man beating a woman repeatedly about the head and face, I think I do know (from experience) what my perception would be…that that needs to be stopped NOW. Not ten minutes from now.

        Yes, call 911, no doubt. But that is NOT going to save her life or prevent debilitating injury if she’s taking a real, honest to goodness beating.

        At some point in an encounter, even a ‘good guy’ can become the bad guy. The term excessive force was coined for a reason.

    • Yeah, this one doesn’t seem like it needs a “scorecard”. Two drunk guys beating on each other outside a bar, I’m probably not going to step in. A raging asshole beating a woman to a pulp, I’d like to think I’d do the right thing and get involved pretty quickly.

  4. Welcome to Chicago and America 2.0, no one is willing to help nor does the law incline those willing to actually do so.

    Good thing he didn’t have a gun though, otherwise a serious offense would be committed and it might get “actual” media coverage.

  5. The part that truly pisses me off is the school’s refusal to help, presumably out of fear of publicity. I grew up in a rough neighborhood in North St. Louis in the 50’s, and the priests and nuns at my grade school were NOT afraid to intervene when local punks acted up in their presence. Hell, Father Hrdlicka kept a 1911 in his desk drawer (and a case of Falstaff in the office ‘fridge). Kids learn from example. What are the kids at this school going to take from this episode? Keep your head down and hope the problem goes away? I really hope this woman’s child was not a witness to his mothers beating or the cowardly failure of his school officials (who are, after all, supposed to be protecting HIM) to aid his injured mom. If that kid ever trusts an adult again, it will be a miracle.

    • I’d say more out of fear of liability. In many cases, if you try to help and, despite your good intentions, arguably make things any worse, you can be sued. So thank the ambulance-chasers for a goodly portion of that non-intervention stuff.

      • Not sure about Chicago, I left there in 1968, but most places have “Good Samaritan” laws to protect citizens who attempt to help/intend to help, and come up short.

        • I expect that it’s like SD/deadly force law, it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

  6. A man beating a women almost to death? There are few things on this planet that would justify that. It wouldn’t matter to me WHO was doing the beating, even if they had a badge, they would have a gun pointed at their head with a real threat to put a hole in it. A persons duty would be to stop that attack.
    If I have to answer to the law for my actions, oh well, but some things a man has to do.

  7. This story has Statism all over it, from the defenseless mecca that is Chicago, to the principled, upstanding, and compassionate folks running this particular Illinois thought instillation institution.

    • I don’t find Merit’s comment obscure. The school insists on instilling in children the beliefs that guns are bad and big government is there to help, while teaching by their example that doing nothing to help a woman being beaten to a pulp, nothing during or after the attack, is the actual ethos those big government employees live. Simple. True.

  8. Looking back on the incident with knowledge of the story, it is obvious that Ms. Radjenovic was the victim of a tragic, senseless, and horrific violent crime and I wish Ms. Radjenovic a speedy and complete recovery.

    As for anyone in the vicinity when it happened, how were they supposed to know what was going on? Maybe Ms. Radjenovic had just tried to shoot or stab Mr. Castro and he was fighting for his life.

    Inserting yourself into an altercation in progress is dicey at best. Unless you have seen (without any break in eye-contact) and heard (while continuously in earshot) absolutely everything before and into the first several seconds of an altercation — AND you can clearly determine who is the attacker — you have no way of identifying the attacker and the victim.

    I believe the best course of action in many instances is to be ready to tell both sides to stop when one side is incapacitated. For example the man punched the woman and then she collapsed. If the man continued to attack the woman at that point, that would be time to intervene.

    • Come on. Fighting for his life?

      What is the mantra we repeat here over, and over and over again. Shoot until the threat stops, and stuff like that, right?

      If she had threatened him and he happened to get the better of her, his self defense standing ended LONG before he inflicted the injuries he did.

      And, no, I DON’T have to satisfy any of those criteria you mention. What is important is imminence of life threating injury, and beating someone repeatedly in the head, especially with disparity of force in play, absolutely qualifies.

      I know we are playing a 20-20 hindsight game, but I just don’t buy this particular situation was all that ambiguous at the time.

      But, at the end of the day, only you have to stare at yourself in the mirror the rest of your life.

      • Nevertheless, that was an unknown situation for onlookers. For all they know the woman told the man that she had a gun in her pocket or purse and was going to shoot him … which means that there would be absolutely no disparity of force at that point. Just because onlookers could not see a gun doesn’t mean that one was not in play.

        It all depends on the situation.

        • I’m calling bull on your hypothetical. Sorry.

          She was out of the fight long before he stopped. That is its own disparity of force.

          Question: Have you ever stood by and watched a woman get beaten? For any reason? And, it does not really have to be a woman. Stood by and just watched anyone get beaten?

          Just curious. I have been in situations like this and I guess I have a pretty good idea how I will react.

          You have no legal obligation to know the background story if someone’s life is in imminent danger. And, dying from fists to the head has happened often enough that repeated blows reasonably constitutes “imminent danger.”

        • In 1998 I was standing in a supermarket check-out line when a fight erupted at the exit. It appeared that the smaller man was taking a serious beating and I moved to intervene (I was NOT armed).

          While crossing the distance of about 30 feet I observed that the large man was plain-clothes security (the handcuffs in the fist with which he was beating the smaller man were a give-away) and so bear-hugged the smaller man to take him out of the fight, at which time I had to turn my back on the security guard and take a few blows to my own back while telling him loudly that the fight was over and he needed to STOP!

          The important thing is to stop the assault and minimize injuries until the situation can be further resolved. I may not have known who was right or wrong at the beginning of the incident, but it was not difficult to decide what need to be done to bring the situation to a stop so that order could be restored. Standing by and watching ANYONE get beaten is NOT an option, even if the Bad Guy is taking the worst of it. As in any case of defense, once the threat is ended the action MUST stop. You don’t get to keep shooting until you are empty or he is dead – you don’t get to keep punching until you are too tired to continue or the other guy stops breathing.

    • [i]As for anyone in the vicinity when it happened, how were they supposed to know what was going on? Maybe Ms. Radjenovic had just tried to shoot or stab Mr. Castro and he was fighting for his life.[/i]

      They were all in line waiting to pick up their kids. Surely they saw/heard him slam into a van, then ram into her car. Also I’m assuming she was standing away from the van when she said she was filing an insurance claim so she spoke loudly.

      I’m sure the people around just couldn’t figure out that the buy guy was the large man beating the woman nearly to death. Just as I’m sure the people in Britain that just stood around watching the muslim radicals stab people repeatedly were just “unsure” of who the bad guys were. And that’s totally why they didn’t help.

      If you can’t figure out that the deadly force triangle was closed in this case (opportunity, capability, intent), please take some classes on threat recognition. Even if he started off defending himself, she was long past having capability or intent.

      Besides, couldn’t someone at least roll down the window and throw out a “WTF”? That is in the continuum of force.

  9. Just playing devil’s advocate…

    Remember, the SCOTUS ruled that the police have no duty to protect you as a citizen (Castle Rock v. Gonzales)… why would we expect anyone else to do so? It’s the Chicago way.

  10. Nobody, but NOBODY deserves a beat down like that, hell yes I would have intervened, if for no other reason to stop the beating…part of the problem in America today, NOBODY wants to get involved, until after the fact…being reactive fixes/solves NOTHING, being proactive is being an American…don’t be a reactive leftist/liberal, be a proactive American…

  11. Public schools are becoming a plague on society. At least here in my city, a man who stabbed his wife almost to death in front of a public school was apprehended by another man with a CHL. I don’t know where school security was.

  12. There is something seriously wrong with people when nobody did anything to stop this. And in the aftermath, it is totally inexcusable how the school handled her. There is absolutely no way I would allow my child to go to a school where administrators pulled crap like that. It displays a total lack of a moral or ethical compass. I don’t care who you are, you do not refuse to help someone who has obviously just been victimized. That somebody had the gall to look at her and refuse to assist in the aftermath makes me sick.

  13. If the police have no duty to protect, why would we expect any more from the average civilian? karma…

  14. Somehow I’m not surprised. The headline should have said… “Welcome to the future of Chicago.”

    Here it is… hundreds of disarmed, anti-gun Chicago citizens… watching as woman is beaten half to death by perpetrator. The people of Chicago… doing their duty for a violent-free world. Don’t get involved and don’t help. The police will take care of everything… even thought they weren’t there.

    Bloody beaten woman runs to school entrance and desperately exclaims, “Please call the police and an ambulance!” Just beyond the glass of the entrance school personnel coldly, expressionlessly reply in a monotone voice, “You can’t come in here for help. Your business is your business and it didn’t happen here. Find someone else to make the call for you. We can’t help you.”

    I’m already envisioning an Aldous Huxley-esque “Brave new world” post apocalyptic breed of novel. If someone wrote it… I would buy it.

    • It reminds me of the soldier being beheaded in Britain and everybody just watched and recorded the attack. And the police didn’t even ventilate the bad guys when they showed up. Pathetic.

  15. Could always get involved by yelling at the guy walking towards him etc. Something to get him to stop. If he makes a move towards you then, maybe it is time for a DGK. I dont know every situation is different. But at least you are helping a woman who is getting the crapped kicked out of her, come on people do something. That is a win in my book any day.

  16. It’s very easy to blame people after the event, a lot harder to observe, orient, decide, and finally act all within a matter of seconds when something like this goes down. It might have seemed like minutes for her but in reality it probably happened very fast.

    And we are only hearing her side of the story here. Not for nothing but I’ve seen some women physically attack men (usually they go for the nuts) thinking they won’t fight back and then, upon getting smacked too hard come crying to anyone in range.

    • I get your point, but it’s not just her side of the story. There is medical evidence that are part of the court record:

      The attacker, later identified as Castro, punched Radjenovic 13 times in the face, breaking an eye socket, her nose and loosening her teeth, Cook County prosecutors said in court.

      Does not sound like the kind of circumstance tha tis easily mistaken for what you describe. That woman was getting the sh&t beat out her and people are defending standing by watching it happen.

      Puzzling.

  17. …. the police have NO DUTY TO PROVIDE INDIVIDUAL PROTECTION ….

    “… a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen.”

    “The duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists.”

    Those are the opinions of the District of Columbia Superior Court and the D.C. Court of Appeals issued in 1978 and 1981 blocking a suit by three young women who had been raped and beaten for 14 hours during a nightmarish home invasion in 1975. Two of the women had repeatedly called the D.C. police. They watched a police car slowly roll by their townhouse after their first call for help, then were told help was on its way in subsequent calls, when indeed it was not.
    The decisions in that case, Warren v. District of Columbia, came at a time when D.C. was still enforcing its ban on firearms in the home for self-defense.

    The decision by those lower courts in Warren mirrored decades of U.S. Supreme Court precedents. The latest high-court opinion declaring police have no duty to protect ordinary citizens was handed down in June 2005.

    • That would still be a good faith intervention. Whatever that means. Plus, cops only brutalize people when they’re in packs of three or more. You know, so they can go home safe at the end of the day.

    • Your legal obligation is to judge the facts before you and act as a reasonable person would with the same set of facts. You don’t have to be “correct.” (Not a lawyer, but that’s the gist of what was taught in a law class…welcome correction by legal experts).

      Graham vs Connor sets the objective reasonableness standard for law enforcement in use of force cases.

      If you see a man beating down a woman and not really acting like a “reasonable person” should expect a cop to act (which would be handcuffing her once she was subdued, for example, and screaming to all and sundry “I’m a cop!”), stopping his actions that to every reasonable person looks identical to a violent attack would most likely be adjudicated as likewise reasonable.

      A lot of nonsense can happen, however.

  18. Flat out amazing. Not one soccer mom with a canister of pepper spray in her purse? No shop teacher with missing fingers but an old-school sense of propriety? I probably would have tried a baseball bat between the thug’s shoulder blades while he was bent over and doing his thing. If that doesn’t work and he gets the bat away from me, oh look! He’s armed! Time to draw and shoot. Easy to say in hindsight, I know. It’s too bad this lady had to serve as a lesson to all of Chicago, but you knew it would happen sooner than later.

  19. BLACK MAN BEATS WHITE WOMAN! HATE CRIME! Yeah I live in Cook County,Illinois. Really crappy neighborhood. I’d get involved in a second. Years I intervened in an assault on the “EL”. I’m much meaner & better ARMED now. Homie will plead out & get a slap on the wrist. BET ON IT.

    • you are absolutely right. he will plea out with a disorderly conduct… meanwhile if you or I intervened we would we up for agg assault with firearm possession in a school zone kickers and won’t be offered a plea. Don’t think that Anita Alvarez wouldn’t do it either…

      the rules only apply to a select few.

  20. Disclaimer: As you all know, NJ is all about citizen disarmament, so I don’t carry.
    If I see *anyone* getting beat down, I would definitely call the fuzz and be vocal about it. I would NOT get myself killed for someone who may not even want me involved.

    Example:
    -http://www.wsmv.com/story/24480769/good-samaritan-attacked-while-trying-to-defend-young-woman
    Group of guys harassing a woman (verbally), dude steps in, gets knocked out and robbed. Chick leaves, doesn’t even bother to call police/ambulance.

    -And, as every cop knows, there are many cases where someone, even police, intervene in a domestic situation and the woman takes up for her boyfriend/husband and they both attack the guy trying to help.

    -Finally, in college a group of us (5 guys, some of us football players) went to an event at another school. Came out and saw a guy in the car trying to steal the radio. We chased him and as he was fleeing, he was trying to get people to stop and help him.

    He absolutely looked like the victim: one skinny teenager getting chased by 5 older, bigger guys. But he was actually a scumbag and we were college students just trying to hold him for cops.
    If someone did stop to help, they would’ve helped a criminal (who would’ve kept running) and possibly gotten hurt themselves.

    tl;dr: MYOB and call the cops.

    • In the larceny incident, which was not a violent assault against another human being, you responsibility was to stop the crime in progress, NOT chase down and apprehend the hooligan. If you succeed in stopping the crime your only further obligation is to observe and report. I cannot justify this person’s criminal acts, but I can certainly understand why he would run from five large and angry men and pleas for assistance. I could even stand behind his RKBA if he had pulled a weapon and shot your asses. Talk about disparity of force!

      • We did catch him and he was NOT harmed at all.

        But, if you catch someone committing a property crime against you and he responds:
        “Oh. You saw me? OK, I’ll stop and be on my way then.”
        Your response is to what? Stand there mute? Wish him Godspeed? Call the cops, who’ll be there eventually and do nothing about it? Or if you do give chase, you’d make sure it was a “fair” match up, so the criminal has a shot at fighting you off?

        Otherwise you’d deserve some hot lead?

        Good to know. I pray for you a series petite skells to start destroying and stealing your property. I’m sure you’ll show the proper restraint (of yourself of course, not them).

  21. 720 ILCS 5/7-1: Use of Force in Defense of Person:
    *Reasonable belief that conduct necessary to defend self or another against a third party’s imminent use of unlawful force
    *Deadly force can be used only if reasonable belief that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to self or another, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

    http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/fulltext.asp?DocName=072000050K7-1

    Bad news is that only Aggravated Battery is a felony. What happened may be deemed simply battery, and then you’re screwed unless you can reasonably believe her life to be in danger.

    The standard here in IL is “reasonableness.” …would a reasonable person believe the facts of the situation as described? Reasonable force is the minimum amount of lawful aggression sufficient to legitimately stop a person’s unlawful actions.

  22. Ah, Chicago. The shining example of strict gun control.

    Things will change for the better soon, as people get to exercise their right to CC.

  23. You know, I find it hard to judge people who say, “I’m not helping…”

    Is there a Good Samaritan clause in the local law, freeing the person intervening of legal liability if things go south? Like with CPR?

    Is the person you saved going to pay your legal costs if the prosecutor decides to come after you?

    How do you know that the woman you are saving isn’t dating the man who’s whooping her ass? What if she sides with him during questioning?

    If you can’t abide something going on in front of you and you feel you must act, I completely understand. But, don’t judge someone who is not willing to jump head first into a situation they do not fully understand.

    The police do not have an obligation to protect, so why should anyone else…

    • The police do not have an obligation to protect, so why should anyone else…

      I keep reading this, and do agree that it is technically true, but I have to say, in my own experience, I have NEVER seen cops stand there not doing anything at all while a woman sustained broken bones and loose teeth from a man beating her.

      Even if she was wrong. Even if she was initially the bad actor. No matter what the circumstances, I have never seen a single cop stand there and watch someone get the crap beat out of them.

      Stand there and do nothing is a long cry from killing the man outright. There is middle ground.

      Let’s say she is the bad actor and he is the victim, and he got the upper hand. Does that mean he has the “right” to beat her to death or serious injury? What are the standards we apply to our hypothetical self defense gun uses?

      Where does self defense become excessive force? At what point does excessive force transition a person from self defense to the aggressor? We know how WE (gun owners) get judged in this all the time.

      I’m saying I think it becomes pretty clear at some point that the activity needs to be stopped…whoever the INITIAL good guy / bad guy was.

      • Well, regardless of the actual practice, the technical part of it is still in place to protect the government from being held liable.

        I cannot fault a citizen for not wanting to accept the same liability and responsibility that police depts are not willing to accept.

  24. How about carrying different levels of force? Along with a firearm I carry pepper spray, the biggest, baddest spray I can find. I would propose giving both of them a good dose. The victim might object for a while but If I saved her from considerable harm she would probably come around.

  25. TO ALL YOU GIRLS WHO WOULDN’T GET INVOLVED…SHAME ON YOU. ARE YOU THE SAME GIRLS WHO SAID YOU’D STAND UP TO GUN CONFISCATION? NO YOU WOULDN’T. YOU’VE BEEN JUDGED. ANYONE WHO FEELS THE NEED TO FLAME ME GO AHEAD.

    • Yep, all these bad asses going to stand up to swat teams and mraps can’t find the balls to help a women being beaten to death. Chicago ain’t the only place full of sheeple.

      And yes, I know she survived. But nobody that was there could have known til it was over. Feminisation has taken deep roots in America.

  26. Why, oh why must this be called an “alleged attack”? This woman didn’t hurt herself. I think we can say with a high degree of confidence that this was an “attack”–and an extremely violent one at that. It’s just a sad and sickening story.

  27. I would have stepped in, I live in Wi though, not the paradise that is shitcago. What happened to the “good samaritan act” ? Did holder do away with that?/// On the other hand, if I’m walking & hear gunshots in a store, Im running, not going inside.

  28. This could have been a sexual assault in progress not just a case of road rage. I would have done something, probably starting with a flying drop kick to the guy’s face to stop the attack. Then go from there.

  29. “Nobody did anything.”

    Until recently, nobody in Chicago was in a position to do anything. I hope that Ms. Radjenovic will get a gun and learn how to use it. Then, if there’s a next time, she will be able to defend herself and not have to rely on the kindness of strangers.

    • The lack of a firearm would not have stopped me from approaching the situation and trying to get the conflict to end. Simply being verbally threatened with having the police called and video shot on a cell phone would stop most bully thugs, and a few dozen shallow stab wounds to the torso and legs would help too.

  30. I’d definitely try to break it up if I saw something like that happening. Pull my gun…probably not (absolutely not in Chicago). There are more effective non lethal means to take down and restrain an aggressor. If it turns out that I’m in for an ass kicking too, well, it wouldn’t be the first one I’ve gotten, probably not the last either (unless it is).

  31. Theres plenty of good people in the world, but it only takes one monster to shatter your entire world. A good reminder as to why I carry.

  32. If you intervene, do it with eyes wide open. Be prepared to be vilified by an anti-gun press, painted as a “cop-wannabe”, hounded by whatever DA is looking for a score, and bankrupted by legal fees. If you “clear leather” and shoot, make absolutely certain that EVERY SINGLE ROUND hits the target, because YOU are responsible for where those rounds land. If you aimed for the bad guy, but hit the child standing behind the bad guy, you’re fooked. If the bad guy is a gangbanger, and you kill him, be prepared for what happens after the press publicizes your name and your home address. Be prepared for the civil suit from the perp’s family…or the family of the innocent kid you hit by accident.

    Cops have sovereign immunity, union-funded legal defense, the benefit of the doubt from virtually all quarters, support from fellow officers, and protection against public release of personal information. You, on the other hand, are not a cop and enjoy none of the same protections. These are simply the facts.

    The legal system is impersonal and merciless: it grinds the guilty and the innocent with equal vigor. It will grind you, and no one (not even your lawyer) will give a damn that you did the “right thing”.

    Intervene, don’t intervene: the choice is always yours, but don’t bulls**t yourself with movie-inspired fantasies.

  33. This case illustrates a truth that I have know to be true for some time. The closer you get to “civilization”, ie. a city like Chicago, the less civilized people behave. In a city like (insert here: Chicago, Detroit, or NYC) the average person has lost so much civility that thug behavior isn’t upsetting to them. The bystanders don’t even give it a second thought except to be thankful they aren’t the target of the beating. They refuse to get involved due to fear of being victimized by either the thug or the Police. Many of them act like or embrace thuggish behavior if the circumstances suit them. What a shame. Many of you have responded as such and you should be ashamed.

    Imagine if that was your wife or daughter that the animal attacked. Would you be upset that someone didn’t step in to help her?

  34. NEVER said I’d shoot the lowlife. I don’t have legal carry YET. Pepper Blaster,knife,basball bat,AXE in the truck. Am I STILL the only one to notice large black man beating the s–t out of little white woman? And yes I’m STILL married to a beautiful black woman.

  35. “is a symptom of a populace inured to violence”

    I disagree. This is a symptom of a population inured to self-reliance. No one knew what to do. It’s the police’s responsibility. We have forgotten that communal safety is EVERYONE’S responsibility.

    Those of us who do remember the latter, are marginalized as “gun nuts”.

  36. The real problem here was the cell phone. The woman got out of her own space (vehicle) and confronted the malefactor, wielding the phone like a talisman.

    Unfortunately there was no app for this situation, and she had her ass handed to her.

    Cell phones cause more trouble than they’re worth.

    • @Martin B- Are you serious or just plain stupid? The problem was her cell phone use to document the accident? I would submit that the problem was the lunatic thug who initiated the incident with some aggressive driving and escalated it with assault.
      The real problem is this guy didn’t pick a fight with someone who was equipped to deal with it.

      • No, just saying that if she had waited until the cretin had left to do what he had come to do, she could have taken his number and avoided a violent confrontation. The Police would certainly have been interested in his actions up to that point.

        Visitors to the zoo admire the lion’s strength, but they don’t jump into the animal enclosure to test their own strength against the lion.

        This woman surrendered to her own sense of indignation, without any thought that it could suddenly and dramatically get very, very much worse.

        With the large number of jacked up out of control individuals out there, a certain level of caution becomes common sense.

        That said, once it had happened, an armed guardian angel would have been of great benefit.

  37. Good people have ALWAYS been able to intervene in Illinois. Caps not stuck ralph. Grow a pair.

  38. Having been told numerous times over the years that members of the general public shouldn’t try to do the police’s job, I would just assume that I’m not qualified to intervene and would’ve run as fast as possible in the opposite direction squealing like a stuck pig.

  39. HEY YOU ALL – The solution is real simple here. If you are armed and come across the situation as described:

    1. Shout out “CALL 911! Someone call 911!”
    2. Clear the path to your weapon (untuck shirt, etc.)
    3. Get your ass up close enough (20 feet or so)
    4. Scream “FREEEZE!! Back-off of the lady!”
    5. If that fails to get the perps attention, get in closer and scream “FREEZE!! DO IT NOW!”
    6. Once you’ve got his attention, repeat “Back-off of the lady!”
    7. If he runs at you, empty your clip into his sorry hide. Game over, perp.
    8. Otherwise order him to “Stand up and go” somewhere (“Up against that wall”, “Take a walk”, et al)
    9. Let the perp leave if he wants – The cops will get him later.
    10. Assist the victim and be sure that police and ambulance are on their way.

    The whole mess can be dealt with without even drawing your weapon. Just be sure that the path to your weapon is clear before putting yourself in harms way. A commanding voice and strength are enough to let the perp know that you mean business. But if he turns on you, he’s dead meat. Odds are that he won’t though – You’re going to project that you have a weapon without even having to display it. Just have some damn backbone already!

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