Quote of the Day: High Anxiety Edition

“I feel pretty confident in telling you that there is broad consensus . . . that we do not want weapons in or anywhere around our congregations. If you do post the (no guns allowed) signs, then the message you’re sending to everyone is, ‘Gee, I wonder if anyone is carrying a gun.’ In some ways, by making people aware of the possibility, you actually raise anxiety.” – Bishop Wayne Miller, Concealed carry law tests whether guns, God mix [via suntimes.com]

comments

  1. avatar CharlesT says:

    Bishop Miller leads a very different congregation than the ones I have been a member of in the South.

    1. avatar Larry says:

      Probably not. My bet is he has never asked any of them a damn thing about it, just believes he can make up their minds for them, and hasn’t told them either.

      IOW, a liar and a cheat, like most preachers of any faith.

      1. avatar WayneMHK says:

        Most preachers? Umm, no.

      2. avatar jdb says:

        Hmmm. This Bishop is yet another piece in the increasingly irrelevant chunk of christianity. That said, I’m just about to go to church – and I’ll have my G17 with light in a OWB retention holster and a mag carrier. I’ll probably open carry most of the day. And nobody will give it a second thought – mostly because I’ve taught there on self defense and the OBLIGATION of men to protect and care for their families – even if that means lethal force. And partly because it’s a conservative baptist church in the South.

        This is what Christianity NEEDS to be doing: making itself truly relevant by addressing major issues from scripture. In this case: “Men and women: it’s a dangerous world out there (Luke 22:36) – you must protect your family. Now let me show you from God’s Word why He not only teaches that this is acceptable but required.”

        1. avatar Manimal says:

          Yeah… No. Jesus tells them to buy a sword to fulfill prophecy. When his disciples actually go to use the sword later in the garden he tells them to put it away. Jesus’s thought on self defense is to turn the other cheek.

        2. avatar jdb says:

          Manimal: At the Garden God’s purpose for Christ was for him to be taken to be killed for our sins. Trying to stop that would have been fighting against God. That’s why Christ doesn’t say “no more fighting EVER” – He said “Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?” John 18:11. Back at Luke 22:36 He told his disciples to arm themselves – our Savior is not a schizophrenic flip-flops like this.

        3. avatar shawn l. says:

          The bible has been rewritten by man so many times no one knows what happened back then. King James was gay…little known fact.

        4. Shawn L. …. actually that is simply and quite entirely untrue. I could document this for you, but I have a hunch you have drunk the anti-Christian Kool Aid to such an exent that facts simply would not deter you. But, if you are interested, contact me off-line and I’d be happy to continue this.

        5. avatar Jeff says:

          frankly the thing that bothers me the most is the removal of droids and time travel in the KJV. I feel this was an affront to history and Christ’s teachings regarding temporal modification and man-droid relations

      3. Way to generalize there, Larry.

        “Most” preachers are liars and cheats.

        “Most” people posting on TTAG named Larry are liars, cheats and idiots.

        See how that works, Larry?

        1. avatar Kevin says:

          Paul. “facts simply would not deter you.” You actually believe that garbage in the bible? If that is fact to you then we have a very different definition of the word.

        2. Kevin, if you would have read a bit more carefully before taking your shot, you would have seen I’m responding to the assertion that the Bible has been changed through the ages. That is a factual assertion lacking in merit.

          You can bash the content of the Bible all you want, no doubt you will.

          And yes, I do believe “all that garbage” in the Bible, but that is not the point here.

          Of all the texts from ancient times that we have copies of, we have more copies of the texts of both Old and New Testament than any other and they are remarkably consistent.

          You can insult and disparage my faith all you want. People have been doing that for nearly 2,000 years, so take a number.

          But as for the assertion made about the text of the Bible, it was simply, and is, factually inaccurate.

        3. avatar JasonM says:

          @Paul
          The current version most English speakers use is the King James version, which is a translation of the Latin bible, which was a translation of the Greek, which was a translation of whatever language the author used (I believe Aramaic is the most prevalent for the new testament). And even if we accept the premise of Christianity, those authors were humans writing the events as they saw them, or trying to translate their deific communion to words.

          Additionally, the Catholic Church (I suppose at the time, it was just the Christian Church), convened multiple times during the Roman era to decide which books would go in the bible and which would not.

          So, yeah, they did rewrite it a few times over the years. They weren’t complete rewrites from scratch, but enough that errors could creep in.

        4. Note to Jason:

          The King James Version is not a translation from the Latin Bible. It is a translation based on the Greek New Testament manuscripts available at the turn of the 16th century, or more specifically, on the Greek NT compiled by Erasmus. It was heavily influenced by the work of Tyndale, who in turn, was heavily influenced by the work of Martin Luther and his translation work. The Greek texts in use at the time are known as the “Majority Text” of the New Testament, consisting literally of thousands of various manuscripts, all sharing a remarkable degree of similarity.

          The New Testament was written entirely in Greek, specifically, “Koine” Greek which was the Lingua Franca of its day throughout the Roman Empire. Aramaic was a spoken tongue in most of Palestine, but the NT was written in Greek.

          As for “what most English speaking Christians” use, I’m not so sure that honor still goes to the KJV. The beauty of its English is memorable, to be sure, and “classic” but many other translations have come along and have proven very popular.

          The Bible has not been “rewritten” that simply is factually untrue. Great care was taken to copy manuscripts through the centuries and the degree of accuracy in those copies is quite remarkable. This is true both for OT and NT. Our Jewish friends here can comment more about the great pains taken by scribes to replicate OT manuscripts.

          The Catholic Church did not convene multiple times to “decide what goes into the Bible” … the contents of the Old Testament were well established long before Christianity, per se, came on the scene. The contents of the NT were widely and universally recognized long before there was anything that we would know today as the Roman Catholic Church.

          Simply put, my friend, you are incorrect on a factual basis about everything you just asserted.

          Again, this is not about whether or not what is in the Bible is true or what you believe about the content, but the objective reality of the consistency of that content in all written manuscripts is simply a matter of factual study.

          Here endeth the lesson.

      4. avatar Anonymous says:

        Wow. That was pretty bold. Good job Larry.

    2. avatar Another Robert says:

      The last church I attended, I asked one of the ushers once if they had a problem with CCL holders bringing their heat to meetin’. He said they encouraged it, one of the ushers always carried and they didn’t mind if he had some help. I think the one telling me all that carried too, tho he never said so. Always wore some kind of loose, tail-out overshirt, no matter what the weather. They had a few cases in Texas where some nut case came in and shot up a church; being Texans, they mostly responded appropriately.

  2. avatar ninjaTED says:

    Or, you could let your parishoners decide for themselves if they want to carry into church, and since they’re carrying concealed, nobody will know and the anxiety level will remain unchanged.

    Surely, Father, you’re not saying that people would disregard “no guns” signs, are you? I mean, they never have before, so why would anyone have cause to wonder if they are now, in your church? Or am I wrong about that….?

  3. avatar PapaChop says:

    My father, grandfather, and three of my uncles are all Pastors – and none have any problem with individuals carrying in church.

    1. Bingo..

      I’m a Lutheran pastor and I have no problems with concealed carry, anywhere, in ‘Merica.

      Please do not generalize from the idiotic remarks of one guy wearing a clerical collar and conclude that all Christian priests/pastors/ministers are leftist zombies spouting the party line of the Democratic/Mainline Protestant liberal party.

      1. avatar OakieDoc says:

        I presume you’re not ELCA 🙂

        1. You assume correctly, sir!!

          🙂

          LCMS

        2. avatar MOguns says:

          No, he’s a real Lutheran

      2. avatar PapaChop says:

        Rev. McCain – in fact, my family knows you well. The grandfather figure would be the author of that Green Book the ELCA hates so much…

        1. avatar PapaChop says:

          And I’m pretty sure you were roommates with one of the uncles at some point…

        2. “Chop” … ah, yes…I get it now.

          : )

  4. avatar racer88 says:

    “Signs? We don’t need no steenkin’ signs!”

    “Is it twoo what they say about CCW? It’s twoo! It’s twoo!”

    1. avatar Troutbum5 says:

      Oh Lord, can we keep these guns out of our church….or are we just jerking off?

      1. avatar Pulatso says:

        Oh, forget all that sh!t…here comes Mungo!

        1. avatar Racer88 says:

          Ammo-gram for Mongo.

          Mongo like ammo.

  5. avatar jirdesteva says:

    So. let’s see if I get this? This individual says that you actually raise anxiety when you post the gun free zone sign? Why? Maybe because the sign only affects those who willing to obey the sign. Unlike the criminal who views the sign as a tell tale indicator that they will be the only ones with a gun, at least until the police arrive minutes after the crimes have been committed. NNNNNooooooooooooo way really?

  6. avatar Den says:

    I teach concealed carry FOR churches! So I don’t know where the bishop gets his guidance from.

    1. avatar Larry says:

      Little boys, maybe?

    2. avatar Louis says:

      My son is part of his church’s security detail, and they train to keep everyone safe. As for letting other parishioners to carry I’ don’t know.

  7. avatar ST says:

    “Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.”

    -Luke 22:36

    Looks like The Man Upstairs is comfortable with concealed carry. Seems like the minister isn’t in compliance with “Company Policy”…..

    1. avatar jirdesteva says:

      + ∞
      “Guns and God mix” in the original article.

    2. avatar jdb says:

      No, that’s not equivalent to concealed carry of a handgun. That’s the open carry of the premiere military weapon of the day. For us that would be AR-15s, SCARS, etc. 😀

      1. avatar Kelly in GA says:

        So, we should bypass Constitutional Carry for Biblical Carry? Sign me up.

      2. avatar Nagurski says:

        If it was a spear and shield I would agree with you, but by and large swords were side arms not a primary weapon.

    3. avatar Manimal says:

      Luke 22:36 is not saying anything about god’s thoughts on self defense. Note that later in the garden, when his disciples go to use the sword Jesus says to put it away.

      1. avatar DavidT says:

        The sword was for His disciples to be able to defend themselves after He was gone. By telling them that, if necessary, they were to sell their cloak to purchase a weapon He was telling them it was one of the most important things they could own, since for many their cloak told the world who they were (by the pattern, similar to a Scot’s tartan) and may have been the single most expensive thing they owned.

        At the garden He needed to be taken to fulfill His Father’s plan for mankind. He knew that His people would be persecuted and hunted for many years after His earthly death, and would need to be able to survive to spread the word, thus the admonition to buy a sword.

        1. avatar Evan in Dallas says:

          I’ve also always thought that outside of “God’s will” being a driving factor in Jesus telling peter to put it away, there was also probably a lot of logic there. Had Peter continued to fight when they were really only after Jesus they all probably would have been killed, and Christianity ends a few years after it started.

      2. avatar Justin R says:

        Peter used his weapon to attack. That was not the purpose for individual weapons in the Bible.

        Turn the other cheek? If someone slaps me in the face this morning at church and I shoot them, I’ll go to jail. That is a reference to an insult against one’s pride, not threat of death.

        The EXPECTATION was that if someone killed another, they were to be killed. It’s in there.

        1. avatar Bob says:

          Actually, the Commandment (I think it’s # 6), says “Thou shall not murder.” The word has been poorly translated from the original ancient Hebrew to English.

          There are several times in the Old and New Testaments where it encourages Killing in self-defense or in a legal execution or in war. Go to the Jews for Preservation of Firearms Ownership web site for a better explanation of this. http://jpfo.org

          To put the theology as pertains to this subject “into a nutshell”: We are not only commanded to be Good, but we are also commanded to battle Evil wherever we find it harming good people. Sometimes Evil people can only be stopped by killing them.

  8. avatar Jeff the Griz says:

    I have spoken to a few pastors that cc, one taught part of my cpl class. In his church he asked ccw holders to volunteer to sit near the back door and him at the front to protect the flock. So if you have faith in your God, and faith in your fellow worshipers, why be afraid if another member of your church is carrying a gun

  9. avatar Rad Man says:

    I don’t want my Constitutionally protected right to not be anxious violated.

  10. avatar DerryM says:

    Go tell that to the Sikh Congregation that got shot-up in August of 2012, Bishop. If there’s a shooter in your church, do you want to wait minutes for the Police to arrive when seconds count? Do you think Angels will suddenly appear and put an end to the shootings? We should all have “anxiety” for being in “gun free zones”, including places of worship. Did you make-up the “broad consensus” you are “pretty confident” exists amongst your Congregation, or did you get an actual tallied vote on that? Oh, right, if your Congregation gets shot-up, it’s just God’s Will because “He works in ‘mysterious ways’ we Sinners can’t understand.” Bogus!

    1. avatar Gyufygy says:

      God may work in mysterious ways, but GLOCKS are rather straightforward.

      1. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

        Very straight forward.

        Well, until some guy wants to recommend a handgun for a woman.

        Then it apparently becomes as complicated as flying the space shuttle. And, no woman can fathom it’s intricate and complex design.

        1. avatar Gyufygy says:

          New project: learn how to detail strip Glocks, then teach every female gunny I know how to do so, assuming they don’t already know. In the latter case, learn tips and tricks.

    2. avatar Randy Drescher says:

      I live about 5 miles from where that happened. Last I heard the Sikh’s were taking shooting lessons(free ones) from the local gun shop. Reality can be a tough teacher./// Just some more good people that don’t care about your POS criminals sarah & co + the fine preacher.

    3. avatar Randy Drescher says:

      wayne just gets stupid around guns. I’ll bet if the flocks cars were being trashed in the parking lot by hoodlems he would call the police rather than pray for the carnage to end. Because, even though the police can be slow, he realizes they will get there a whole hell of a lot faster than god. He just gets stupid around guns.

    4. avatar James says:

      Besides the Sikh Temple incident in Wisconsin, those outside the state probably don’t know about Terry Ratzmann. In 2005, he committed mass murder on a congregation that was using a meeting facility in the Brookfield Sheraton Hotel as a temporary place to practice their worship.

      I realize that intuitively you would think you’d need to CC in a church, temple, or mosque because usually the people that go there are going there to peacefully worship. But as these 2 Wisconsin incidents demonstrate, an incident can happen at any time, for any reason. Pastors and parishioners need to be careful and not project their attitudes of peaceful and safe worship on every individual that walks through the door because they may not share those views. Especially in today’s age, because some who don’t like a church’s or organizations stand, may decide to take matters into their own hands. Just ask the Family Research Council or Karl Pierson’s debate coach.

      1. avatar DerryM says:

        I agree. It pains me that our world is now so dangerous that people cannot worship peacefully as they see fit, and that our children are at constant risk of being murdered in their schools, or that any of us has to be in real concern that some person who has some ax to grind will commit mass murder with any weapon on innocent people peacefully going about their business. As Randy Drescher said, however, “Reality can be (is) a tough teacher.”, and we cannot…dare not…take our safety and security for granted. It just astounds me how so many people just cannot understand this simple, obvious reality. Even if our world was a safer place, I would still advocate people being able to go about armed as they see fit because it is a fundamental right.

  11. avatar Alan Rose says:

    Since he’s never seen a gun in church, he assumes that there are no guns in church. I suppose his congregation has never had an “incident” either like so many others have. Serious lack of critical thinking skills.

  12. avatar Anmut says:

    This and many other liberal policies is why I have a love/hate relationship with the Catholic Church.

    1. avatar Chad says:

      If the Bishop in question is the one in the picture, he’s not Catholic. Wrong collar.

    2. avatar jirdesteva says:

      He’s from Chicago (Rahmrodville) of coarse he feels this way. Whatever it is it’s in the water.

    3. avatar Jus Bill says:

      At Trinity Lutheran Church in Des Plaines…

      The very first words in the article…

      1. avatar Anmut says:

        I stand by my original statement.

        1. avatar MrVigs says:

          Are you saying Catholics are liberal? Sounds like someone needs to do just a little research. M’kay?

        2. avatar Anmut says:

          Mr. Vigs – yes, Catholics are by far very liberal.

        3. avatar CarlosT says:

          Depends on the exact flavor of Catholic. There liberal and conservative Catholics both. Just for some prominent examples, Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito, and John Roberts are all conservative Catholics.

  13. avatar Anmut says:

    Btw I always find it ironic that most homilies focus around self help and the helping of others. Help the poor, help the homeless, help your fellow man, help your wife, help your children. But for the love of everything that is holy, do not seek help in protecting any of the latter.

    1. avatar JeffR says:

      I do seem to recall a fair bit about self-determination in the Bible. For some, however, all that appears to go out the window when it comes to guns: don’t worry, God will protect you. Sorry, I don’t like banking on whether God decides I am worthy of divine intervention on any given day.

  14. avatar RaynBama says:

    My brother is an leo & pastors a Baptist church. He CC’s in the pulpit & knows there are several congregants that are likewise armed. I pity the fool that attempts to…

    1. avatar Jeff the Griz says:

      Your pity would be wasted on any turd that would attempt to attack any group for any reason.

  15. avatar Paul says:

    Anyone who thinks banning guns inside churches is a good idea might be wise to do a Google search on church shootings. They have taken place all over the country. Just yesterday, two brothers were shot just outside a church in Washington D.C. Sure that was outside the building, but if you can’t go in armed, you’ve got to be unarmed outside the doors too.

    Less than two weeks ago, a man was sentenced for the execution-style shooting and attempted murder of his in-laws inside a church in Ogden, Utah.

    There have been mass shootings too. DerryM. noted the Sikh shooting in Oak Creek, Wisconsin in 2012 that took six lives. There’s the 2007 shooting at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado that resulted in two dead and three injured and only ended because the church had an armed security guard at the scene. Unfortunately, that wasn’t the case at 1999 youth event in Austin, Texas where seven people were killed.

  16. avatar jkp says:

    If your religion of choice calls on you to give up the right to self-defense, it isn’t the right to self-defense that needs to be reevaluated.

    1. avatar Mistereveready says:

      Let something go down at or just outside his church and see who responds first, his god or people with guns (whether or not they are police).

      He can sit pretty on his soap box all he wants, but the fact of the matter is when things go bad prayer might be comforting for some but actually having the tools for the job gets the problem resolved.

      I wish less people were less afraid of weapons.
      On the bright side, I went to a Subway that had a sign that said something like “protected by armed customers”.

      1. avatar DerryM says:

        The Subway Sign you reported is great! That sign should be copied and posted freely all over the Country! Maybe some graphically talented TTAG reader/commenter could draw-up some examples and RF could post them here and we can pick one or a couple, then make a Press Release and send it to Shannon Watts. That would ruin that witches’ day!

        1. avatar Jus Bill says:

          The only thing that would ruin her day is the check failing to clear.

        2. avatar Dirk Diggler says:

          or bumping into me at Starbucks.

        3. avatar Sixpack70 says:

          Watch out Dirk, she might be armed! You know how people like Shannon operate.

        4. avatar DerryM says:

          @Jus Bill. Yeah, the check failing to clear WOULD ruin her day, but us POTG offering the signage might just raise her blood pressure…oh, what am I saying? She has ice water in her veins.

        5. avatar DerryM says:

          @Dirk Diggler, Wow, Dirk, I would think bumping into you at Starbucks would MAKE her day!

  17. avatar Carry.45 says:

    I’m glad he’d rather have his brothers and sisters walk in the sheep’s footsteps rather than the shepard’s….

  18. avatar the ruester says:

    I’ve noticed that when people vocally oppose carrying, they refer to it as “packing.” As in “hey, O-Dog, you packing?” The act itself necessarily implies an evil intention in their minds, to the point that even their friendly, well dressed neighbors become the equivalent of street thugs when it is learned they are “packing.”

  19. avatar former water walker says:

    No signs in the large NW Indiana church we’ve been attending. I can guarantee many are legally armed. My pastor friend told me he carried a revolver for many years but quit because he crossed the border to Illinois every day. Yeah they’re Baptists. With discreetly armed guards in church services too.

  20. avatar Dirk Diggler says:

    I am a trustee and head of security for my church. Several people are armed and we have no problems with it. Moreover, my pastor serves as chaplain for the local PD. He has received death threats and has publicly stated that I and several others are his “Joshuas”, just in case something goes down.

    Perhaps we should send the good “bishop” the article about the pastor at First Baptist in Maryville (S. Illinois) killed during service in March 2009by a man who was a bit off. Pastor was shot in the face right through a Bible he held up to defend himself. Oh, but wait, guns were banned in IL, so this could not have happened.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/03/09/pastor-killed-2-hurt-in-illinois-church-shooting/

    1. avatar jirdesteva says:

      Here’s one

  21. avatar ValleyForge77 says:

    What about Knives? Should we not talk about those too, Bishop? I think we’ve seen that knives can also create ‘mass carnage’. At what point do the anti-freedom zealots realize that the weapon ‘is just a tool, and that it is the hard heart that kills’?

    1. avatar Randy Drescher says:

      Make rules “pass legislation because of a lack of human values” Massod Ayoob

      1. avatar ValleyForge77 says:

        Exactly. And you think of all ‘people’, the Church would get it. The tools have always been there. It is the degradation of human values (or faith, as the Church would say) that would allow one to commit a heinous act of evil.

  22. avatar ValleyForge77 says:

    Just like the ‘war on drugs’, legislating guns out of existence is not possible. All’s that does is remove the ability for law abiding citizens to protect themselves and gives the criminals an unlimited ‘gun free zone’ in which they can commit their chaos.

    When they start applying any logic to their argument, perhaps I’ll listen. Until then, it’s all mamby pamby mumbo jumbo based on some delusional, fictional interpretation of reality – that quite frankly I think has something to do with their Freudian desire to be coddled in the safety of their mommie’s arms.

    VF77

  23. avatar Dirk Diggler says:

    Hey – here is a thought. Maybe if there is a public PR campaign and we identify houses of worship that ban guns and put their members at risk, and then encourage attendance at those houses of worship that permit guns, . . then market forces can work. Seriously, If people took their $$ with them elsewhere, how much you want to bet that the ministers will do an about face?

  24. avatar RKflorida says:

    Interesting that the leader of his “flock” can’t trust the flock. He’s worried they will suffer anxiety.
    His flock seems to be poorly led. Maybe a new shepherd is needed. This one sounds like a liar.

  25. avatar Hal J. says:

    From the article:

    Signs are already up at St. Sabina Catholic church. Its pastor, Michael Pfleger, an anti-gun advocate, contended, “The church ought to be the prophetic voice that says guns are not needed. If we are people of faith that say we believe that God is our protection, and God watches over us, if we preach and teach all of this stuff, what is the gun for, just in case God isn’t going to do His thing?”

    Hm…guess he doesn’t think believers should carry auto or medical insurance, either. After all, what is insurance for, just in case God isn’t going to do His thing?

    “In some ways, by making people aware of the possibility, you actually raise anxiety.”

    Wow. A priest/pastor/imam/shaman telling people that knowledge and being informed is bad. Who’d have thought it?

    Wow…a priest/

    1. avatar Marie says:

      Pfleger is EXTREMELY left-wing. He’s as much a media whore as Jesse Jackson. He’s a white priest who pastors a largely black parish. He’s gotten into trouble before with Cardinal George (head of the Archdiocese of Chicago) for things he’s said. Social justice is more important to Pfleger than anything else.

  26. avatar Totenglocke says:

    I can’t wait for the day when psychiatrists start diagnosing adults who believe in an invisible friend with magical powers as mentally unfit to be in society.

    1. Yawn, you’ll have to come up with new material, Toten. Your throw-away line is just getting old. If you are going to bash Christianity, you could at least try to be a bit more creative about it.

  27. Not too put too fine a point on it, but since these kinds of articles always bring out the Christian haters on TTAG, and for the record, this comment is offered for any/all Christians reading this.

    The man quoted is speaking only for himself and his liberal Christian denomination, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which is notoriously leftist on every single theological, social and political issue. Every. Last. One.

    There are a whole lot of Lutherans and Lutheran pastors, yours truly included, who entirely and totally disagree with him.

    Just FYI.

    1. avatar Hal J. says:

      I think it’s inaccurate to describe the posters in this thread as “Christian haters”. Do you really think there would be any difference in the remarks made had this gentlemen been a rabbi, imam, shaman, or witch?

      What gets under my craw is when someone not only tells me how I should conduct my personal affairs, but wants the State to enforce their doctrines simply because they believe they have some insight into the supernatural.

    2. avatar Gyufygy says:

      It’s nothing special about TTAG that brings out religion haters; any time religion pops up in a conversation online and there’s a sufficiently large audience, shit starts flying. Just so you are aware.

    3. avatar Randy Drescher says:

      I’ve been kind to you Paul by my silence this Sunday, don’t push it.

      1. Randy, say whatever you want. Honestly, I don’t care.

        1. avatar Randy Drescher says:

          Boo, sorry to scare you Paul on this Sunday. I’ll bet you thought I was going to trash something that didn’t exist.

        2. Randy: Scare me? Thanks for the chuckle.

  28. And, one more comment, my mind has significantly changed on all issues related to gun control and RTKBA over the past six years or so, through careful reading, research and objectivereflection on these issues, so I’m confident others wavering on these issues can, through their own careful, objective research come to similar conclusions.

    1. avatar Hal J. says:

      In my experience, the amount of people who are on the fence regarding gun rights and who also are willing to do their own careful, objective research is vanishingly small. Kudos to you for doing so.

      1. Miracles never cease.

        : )

  29. avatar 505markf says:

    The most interesting thing about the quote is that somehow awareness leads to anxiety. If you are not aware of anyone carrying a gun, then you can take comfort that no one is carrying a gun. If you have to tell people to not carry a gun, then that is a problem because now you have to acknowledge that people probably have been carrying for some time, or would intend to carry by default in the future.

    I see this same mental gymnastics in the fight against open carry in many states from CA to GA… it is better to just keep things covered up so people can go through their day without having to be aware of guns. There is some mind set involved that I find curious. If a typically numb citizen becomes aware someone is armed, then that person is either crazy loco (which leads to a 911) or perhaps there is some risk I am not aware of. If that person is not crazy and is aware of some risk, then is there something I should be afraid of also? What am I not seeing or aware of that causes that person to carry a gun? What could happen?

    Guess what, Mr or Ms. Numb Citizen. We are all going to die. Some of us are going to get horribly hurt because sometimes crap just happens, even to very nice people. It happens. If you do not accept this, then you will fail to take personal responsibility to mitigate the potential damage or effects of said events. I gave someone heartburn a couple of weeks ago when I began a new project with a client in Dallas. I’d been on the floor of this fairly tall building for only 5-10 minutes and was being given the typical tour (here’s where you get coffee, there’s the rest rooms, etc.) and I asked, “where are the emergency exits/stairways?” The person sort of freaked out, with wide eyes they answered, “I don’t know”. I asked someone else, found the exits, checked how the doors opened, and memorized sort of landmarks that could help me find them in the dark or whatever. I later found out that my initial tour guide had been working on that floor for almost two years.

    Ignorance is bliss, for some people I guess, but it sure isn’t for me.

  30. avatar Nigil says:

    “If you do post the (no guns allowed) signs…”
    You never would’ve had a choice anyway. Were churches on the statute’s prohibited list, you would have been required to post signs so that the law-abiding would not make innocent mistakes. My apologies for your being forced to recognize a natural, God-given right which has been codified in our Constitution for a couple hundred years.
    Which, by the way, is hilarious by itself; the original writers thought that the Constitution as it was written made it so obvious that such infringements were not allowed, they didn’t even bother to put it in the original language. Look at us now.

  31. avatar scooter says:

    Are we not to fear the Lord? Oh… Feeling anxious… Blame God… Argh!

  32. avatar Ralph says:

    Okay, you guys. Stop beating the Bishop.

    Wait. Let me rephrase . . . .

    1. avatar Bob says:

      There’s a dead bishop on the landing.

      I guess we should call the police.

      No. We should call the Church Police.

  33. avatar former water walker says:

    I guess I’m not “saved” enough. +1 Paul T. McCain. Nobody’s bashing Muslims, Jews,Hinduism, Sikhism, etc. Pretty much CHRISTIANS. Ad hominem indeed.

    1. avatar Hal J. says:

      Show me a story about a Muslim, Jew, Hindu, or Sikh leader spouting anti-gun nonsense and I’ll be the first to bash him or her.

      1. avatar Gyufygy says:

        Off the top of my head, essentially the entirety of Reform Judiaism. The others have so comparatively small a presence in the U.S., it really shouldn’t be surprising you don’t hear much from them.

        1. avatar Hal J. says:

          Exactly. It’s analogous to when someone complains about the influence of religion in US politics, and the reply is, “Why don’t you complains about Muslims? You’re always bashing Christians!”

          Well, given that Christians outnumber Muslims in the country by roughly 80 to 1, what should they expect?

        2. avatar Another Robert says:

          Well, I will say I haven’t heard of Christians being able to swing state-funded baptistries at Michigan universities. Nor have I seen any government-grant funded anti Muslim “art”–have you?

  34. avatar former water walker says:

    Hey totenglocke it’s already happened. In the former Soviet Union, East Germany, China, Romania,ETC. And it was paradise wasn’t it.

  35. avatar former water walker says:

    DIRK DIGGLER FAN. Great idea.

  36. avatar 2hotel9 says:

    Perhaps this “bishop” should actually find out, ya know, get the actual facts, how many of his congregants are armed? Naw!!!!! Why let facts get in the way of good leftist strategy.

    1. avatar Marie says:

      The ELCA is pretty liberal. It’s in bed with the Episcopalians. Need I say anything else?

      More conservative Lutherans are found in congregations of the Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod.

    2. avatar Bob says:

      This doesn’t change the any of the bishop’s anti-gun opinions, but …

      Since his church is in Illinois, anyone who was carrying in his church (except a uniformed cop) was doing it illegally. Although I am strongly pro-gun, I would be a little fearful if I knew people were carrying illegally in my church. If they are willing to commit one felony, which other laws are they also willing to violate inside my church?

      1. avatar Nigil says:

        I would say not all felonies are created equal, and not all felons have the same motivation. I have previously carried in violation of state law, but it sure wasn’t out of nefarious intent. Felonies are not a slippery slope…refusing to register a rifle or choosing to grow a specific type of plant does not make one a killer or a rapist.

  37. avatar William Burke says:

    I feel pretty safe in my view that this dude looks like a child FLAME DELETED.

    1. Thanks, W.B., for contributing such a thoughtful remark to this thread and for once again violating TTAG’s no-ad hominem comment policy. Grow up, pal.

  38. I left the increasingly liberal church that I grew up in and was married in. They became more concerned with social justice, environmentalism, gun control, etc. than in spreading the Gospel. I turned to the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod because the focus is on Christ, not temporal issues. Some would argue that the ELCA, which this Bishop represents, is not at all “Lutheran” and is only remotely “Christian.” Not all Lutherans are conservative. Not all Catholics are conservative, either — just ask Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden who claim to be practicing Catholics. You’ll find the LCMS generally supportive of RKBA. My church in North Carolina holds a monthly range night at the local gun club. If your church advocates gun control, they do so without the support of Scripture.

    http://www.armedlutheran.us/anti-gunners/anti-gun-churches/

  39. avatar Gregolas says:

    I completely disagreee with the Bishop. He’s compltely unaware what the Bible says on self-defense.
    I’ve written a book on the subject and I train the armed security teams for some churches.
    To see the frequency and kinds of violence that occur in places of worship, see Carl Chinn’s website.
    http://www.carlchinn.com/Church_Security_Concepts.html

  40. avatar Salty Bear says:

    “And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion.”

    1. Is there any non-LDS archeological evidence for the existence of Nephites or Lamanites?

      1. avatar Salty Bear says:

        Ever heard of the Incas? Mayans? Aztecs? Really though, I honestly don’t know. It seems that only LDS scholars are interested in Book of Mormon archaeology, so they are the primary sources.

        That aside, forgive me if I’m reading too much into your question, but I’m too accustomed to people implying that unless we have scientific evidence of them, that we’re foolish to believe that they existed. I hope that’s not what you mean, because that would be a deliberate offense to my faith…. and in opposition to the very definition of the word “faith.”

        And this is a gun blog. This comment stops here =)

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