By DrVino

You may have heard that just after the ninth circuit’s Peruta ruling, the Orange County sheriff revised her policy on concealed carry license issuance, effectively making the O.C. a shall issue jurisdiction (background check and 16 hours of training notwithstanding). There is some anecdotal reporting that the Ventura County cheriff has made a similar move, but a quick Google search of headlines did not return any confirmation of this. In any case, not long after the change in Orange County, the San Diego sheriff announced that he won’t appeal the decision . . .

While a number of pro-Second Amendment groups have postulated the numbers of potential CCW permits that will be added in coming years as a result of the ruling, various editorial boards, both large and small, have huddled together and, with trembling hands, pecked out lengthy op-eds full of FUD. Somehow, though, most Californians are undaunted by the potential for the torrents of hemoglobin flowing in the streets. Never mind the apparent lack of codification of the decision, the potential for an appeal by the Best Looking Attorney General (who’s also running for reelection), or any other tectonic shifts relating to the change in the law.

A good, trustworthy friend (who lives in da O.C.) just called to let me know he has an interview date for his CCW: September 23rd. Six months. He made his application today. This friend is an avid shooter who got me into Front Sight and has completed that school’s training, making him eligible for CCW in something like 31 states. To his understanding, he’ll still be required to complete one of the Cali-based 16-hour CCW classes (at additional expense) as part of his CCW permitting process.

I know there are many Front Sight members in California and many who have taken multiple two- and four-day pistol classes there. The curriculum at Front Sight is good enough for more than 30 states. I hope we can get the relevant California authorities to see it fit not not require additional training and costs of CA CCW applicants.

My friend said there is much chatter on the Calguns.net forum with some San Diego residents reporting interview dates being scheduled as far out as 2015. Others are reporting repeated calls to their respective issuing offices going unanswered. I have not had a chance to verify this yet.

Nevertheless, I’m sure prospective carriers in the rest of America don’t face these obstacles. Even a med school friend, now residing in Washington (Space Needle Washington, not a-spent-12-gage-shell-will-land-you-in-prison Washington) says their process is supposed to take a maximum of 30 days and his first permit was made ready in about a week.

These schedules of interviews in 2015 may be due to a run on an unprepared bureaucracy. It may also be that, as Dan Silverman speculated in our phone conversation earlier today, there may be a deliberate effort to drag feet afoot. The whole “never attribute to malice…” thing is always good advice. In this case, I guess time will tell.

 

DrVino

 

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82 Responses to Fear And Loathing (of Peruta) in California

  1. Honestly IMO they need to separate the shooting/gun safety part of concealed carry course from the legal part of it. I understand the need for a class on the local legal environment related to concealed carry.

    But I shouldn’t have to prove my shooting several times, I don’t lose my shooting skill when I cross state lines.

    • We should be able to test out of the shooting skills portion. If I can shoot a 7-second FAST on demand and hit the A/C zone of a torso target out to 15yd, I’m not sure what else needs to be proven…

      • I shot my CHL qual strong hand only. Passed with a perfect score.

        But they changed the law, no quals needed for renewal. Which means I will never be able to prove that I can pass it weak hand only.

        • Well, you could always get your CHL Instructor certification so you could conduct the CHL course. There’s a proficiency portion of that using the same B-27 target. Instructors need to qualify with both a semi-automatic pistol and a revolver, each with 90%+.

      • That you have made the appropriate supplications to the lords of bureaucracy and their masters, the Crimson Ribbon god.

  2. I have my application ready to go for Alameda county, but I fully expect that mine will be one of the last to capitulate.

  3. says their process is supposed to take a maximum of 30 days

    Date of training: April 20

    Date of issue on CPL: May 6

    Michigan ain’t so bad….

    • yeah, but here in WA I don’t have to train to get my CPL. just walk in off the street as a non-felon and you’re g2g.

      • It’s the same in PA. They assume that if you bother to carry and you are law abiding, you probably learn how to shoot accurately at SD distances, and you probably look into the relevant laws. Simple. Seems to work.

      • I found that refreshing, except for the problem that a whole lot of states will not recognize my CPL because of the “no training” issue.

        Constitutional Carry will be much better.

    • It’s actually under TWO HUNDRED bucks. Plus ammo. Turner’s Outdoorsman links to a class in So Cal.
      But I’m not going to argue whether this is a reasonable burden or not.

      • Maybe I can become a CCW instructor in my “free time.” I would definitely enjoy that. I hope you are able to get yours soon.

      • No NO – it’s different now. You no longer have to be Mike Carona’s poker buddy, or karate instructor, or mechanic or mistress. Hell, you don’t even have to pretend to like Haidl!

  4. “I hope we can get the relevant California authorities to see it fit not not require additional training and costs of CA CCW applicants.”

    It’s not about training. It’s about doing everything they can (money, time, inconvenience) to limit the number of applicants as much as possible.

    Illinois is doing the same thing, with no interstate reciprocity, a 16-hour training requirement (cost $250-$300) plus a $150 app. fee, plus an additional fee to get fingerprinted if you want your permit in 90 days instead of 120.

    So if you’re a poor single mom struggling to feed your kids, you can rule out the idea of being able to defend yourself outside your home. Concealed carry is only for wealthy people who can afford to live in safe neighborhoods to begin with.

    • The fact that this is all intended to make gun ownership and exercise of the Second Amendment as difficult as possible goes without saying.
      No case has challenged the training requirement as yet, so we have to work within the confines of the existing rules. For the time being.

    • It’s sad to see justice delayed but I’m hoping we can get those problems addressed once there is a critical mass of POTG there.

  5. FWIW. San Diego Sheriff is accepting applications under the new standard but not processing them at this time. Here’s what they have posted:

    ‘Members of the public wishing to obtain a CCW under the standards articulated by the Ninth Circuit should be aware that the decision has not yet become final.

    Federal court rules prescribe a period of time which must elapse before the case is remanded to the District Court for further proceedings.

    In order to accommodate, and expedite, the large numbers of anticipated applications, the Sheriff’s Department is revising the process for issuing CCW permits. Anyone wanting to apply for a CCW may submit an application either by mail at P.O. Box 939062, San Diego CA 92193-9062, or in person at 9621 Ridgehaven Court, San Diego, CA 92123.

    Applications will be reviewed in the order they are received. All applications received that meet the current “good cause” standard will be contacted by a licensing staff member with instructions on how to complete the process.

    Applications that seek a CCW permit under the self-defense standard set forth in Peruta v. County of San Diego will be processed in the order they were received should the decision of the Ninth Circuit become final. Once the decision becomes final, applicants will be contacted by the Sheriff’s Licensing Division with instructions on how to complete the process.

    Please disregard the “Important Instructions” on page two of the State application and complete all sections of the application. Also, please do not submit fees at this time.’

    • At first they were processing appointments on a first come, first served basis. I already had an appointment. The rumor now is that they are going to call us back and cancel those appointments and our applications will be processed in the order they were received in the mail. Frankly, this is just more delay tactics. Any competent agency (Gore doesn’t qualify here) would have been prepared.

      This is unconscionable. Gore’s statement was that his department’s job was just to enforce the law, his actions say otherwise. He is coming up for re-election. Hopefully the vote against him will not be split between to other candidates as is was last time.

      • Honestly they didn’t have much turn-around time to staff or budget after refusing to appeal. They’re performing the government equivalent of turning on a dime, which is more like turning a tanker if you ask me.

  6. “Nevertheless, I’m sure prospective carriers in the rest of America don’t face these obstacles”

    This has been going on in NY forever. We’re talking having to wait a year to purchase a handgun in some counties. The funny thing is that the law says:

    4-a. Processing of license applications. Applications for licenses
    shall be accepted for processing by the licensing officer at the time of
    presentment. Except upon written notice to the applicant specifically
    stating the reasons for any delay, in each case the licensing officer
    shall act upon any application for a license pursuant to this section
    within six months of the date of presentment of such an application to
    the appropriate authority. Such delay may only be for good cause and
    with respect to the applicant…

    So how do they get around it? They won’t let you pick get application without an appointment. You can’t get an appointment for 6 months. Therefore they don’t start the clock until you’ve already been waiting a ridiculous amount of time.

    Infringed, indeed.

    • “Nevertheless, I’m sure prospective carriers in the rest of America don’t face these obstacles”

      This has been going on in NY forever.

      Uh, I think New York is still formally part of the former U.S.S.R.

      • No more like the J.P. Morgans and Lehman of the world like London being dominated by rent-seeking, parasitic bankers. Have you ever noticed how the most ban-crazy places are dominated by either rent-seeking (non-productive) hyper-capitalists or the hard-left socialists? Maybe they’re not so different after all.

    • Thanks. I had done a cursory search looking for headlines indicating changes in policy in response to and in the days after the Peruta decision.

  7. AlphaGeek, I just spoke to the Alameda Co Sheriffs CCW dept. and was told the “90% of applications are APPROVED as long as you have a valid cause.” Also told me that approval was over 1 year…

    • Bwahahahahaaaa… Oh… Ow… I think I broke a rib laughing at that one.

      90% of applicants meeting their pre-Peruta good cause standards? Sure, because most peons don’t get past that.

      Also: their personnel-intensive background investigation process is NOT going to withstand scrutiny post-Peruta.

      • Alameda County had 118 total civilian LTCs active in 2013, down from 134 in 2012. Population 1.5 million plus. (Stats courtesy of CalGuns) Alameda County is also the county that sought to ban gun shows on county property, a case that went on for over a decade before the county finally caved at the time of the SECOND oral argument before the Ninth. (Nordyke v. King) I think that the odds favor a conclusion that Alameda will be one of the last to accept the Peruta ruling–and it just may take a lawsuit to accomplish it.

    • Okay, I take back what I posted earlier. This is clear Deprivation of Rights Under the Color of Law. Looks like it’s time for the NRA to put some more attorneys to work.

    • And some Sheriffs really like to stretch that. When my brother (in Adams County) got his, the earliest appointment was 90 days out. After the appointment, it took 60 days for his CHP to be ready.

      Other Sheriffs, though, are pretty quick about it. I (in Douglas County) walked into my Sheriff’s office with no appointment and my CHP was ready for pick-up 14 days later; on the initial visit, I did have to wait for about 15 minutes while the 3 parties in front of me were photographed and fingerprinted. My father had the same experience in Elbert County (less the 15 minute initial wait).

  8. I used to live in Sacramento. The Sheriff there folded under threat of lawsuit way before all of this.

    I got my CCW soon after.

    I filed out the application and made an appointment for the interview. After the appointment, I was sent a letter of approval in about three weeks. This was about 3 months after I scheduled my appointment.

    Then I attended class, got finger printed, and made another appointment for signing of the license. That was another 3 months. I went in, signed the permit, got the three weapons I qualified with signed off, then waited.

    I received my CCW in the mail about two weeks after my last appointment.

    It only took 7 months, start to finish, to get mine. Oh, and about 500 bucks in fees and training. I was one of the lucky ones. Others took 9 months to a year to get theirs.

    I wonder just how much more time and money these reluctant sheriffs and demand?

    • I live in Sacramento and went through the same process. Only I had to wait a good 10 months for just my first appointment. After that I got my actual permit in about 4 months. At a total cost of about $500 when you include ammo.

      Right now – Sacramento is so backlogged they aren’t even giving new appointments. And – if you want to modify your permit (change the gun you qualified on) – you can’t. They’re only scheduling renewal appointments. Which is super lame because I don’t really like my LC9 and I’d like to go to a Glock 19 or 30… but I’ll have to requalify anyway so I’ll just wait until my renewal is up.

    • Wisconsin
      Carry Wisconsin held a free classrom training (tossed twenty into the jar) on a Saturday. No range requirement
      I work two blocks from the Capitol, AG’s office, so I dropped papers with $50 fee in the box on Monday, my five year CCW card was waiting in my home mail box Thursday night.
      Constitutional Open Carry.
      Fairly decent reciprosity coverage.
      Covers any gun you own or might own.
      Can any body beat that?

      • Washington sate. Shall-issue, no training license for concealed carry, State preemption on carry restrictions, constitutional open carry. You can find photos online of people open carrying in the state capitol. Plus, we have mountains, saltwater, and a better climate than Wisconsin.

        • And legal weed. The whole state is like a sudden outbreak of common sense.

          I’m moving there soon, and I’m not from Cali so please don’t shoot me on sight! LOL

      • Arizona.
        Woke up breathing. Put gun in holster, holster on belt.
        Left my home and went about my business.
        Can anyone beat THAT?

        • You forgot to mention that it’s shorts weather right now. 🙂

          I was on the road to getting my CCW and decided not to complete the application in favor of supporting constitutional carry. Reciprocity might be nice, but I’d rather hold out for more states to go the route OK did, where permit less carry is allowed for AZ residents:
          http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/arizona.pdf

        • What about gun-free school zones? Don’t you break the federal law all the time passing within 1000 ft of a school?

  9. Seriously TTAG, fact check.

    Maybe if I do it in all caps this time, someone will finally get the message?

    KAMALA HARRIS IS NOT A PARTY TO PERUTA, AND PERUTA WAS AN “AS APPLIED” CHALLENGE, NOT A FACIAL CHALLENGE. AS SUCH, NEITHER SHE, NOR CA DOJ, NOR GOV. BROWN, NOR OBAMA, NOR SANTA CLAUS, NOR JESUS, NOR THE TOOTH FAIRY MAY APPEAL OR REQUEST EN BANC REHEARING OR ANYTHING ELSE.

    There are two possible ways Peruta can be drawn out currently:

    1) a member of the 9th requests an en banc rehearing and the majority of 9th Cir. judges vote for it. A stay is not a given in this case.
    2) San Diego says “aha! We never said we wouldn’t petition for cert. to SCOTUS!”. A stay is not a given in this case.

    Leave the legal FUD to Calguns.net and the cops.

    • So, would a motion to intervene be impossible in this case, or are people simply betting that it would not be advisable?

      Of course, the deadline for that, if it were possible at all, would be tomorrow.

      • It’s my understanding that when the lawsuit was first going forward that the AG was offered the opportunity to become a party to the case, but declined. So, she missed her chance.

      • A motion to intervene is only possible, AFAIK, if and after SD County appeals. Prior to that point, there isn’t a “live case or controversy” to intervene IN. (Disclaimer: IANAL, though I was a paralegal in the past.)

  10. Training classes for CCWs are all a waste of time and money. I took a four hour class in MA to get my LTC-A, even though I had taken a Hunter Safety Course in NY. When I obtained my non-res NV permit, I had to take a 8-hour NV class, even though I’m a certified by the MA State Police and the NRA. It’s stupid.

    The only good thing that I can say about the classes is that the MA class cost $60 ($40 for women). My MA training was accepted by FL, so that worked out well. The NV class was FREE at The Gun Store on E. Tropicana.

    • When asked why he robbed banks, Willie Sutton said “Because that’s where the money is.” Always follow the money.

  11. Those are horrendous time delays to get a CCW.

    I am so happy I am in PA where it took a whopping 34 minutes starting time
    when I walked in the door. The Deputy Sheriff was a quick typist and there
    was no connectivity issues.

  12. I’m glad things are slowly moving. I just dream of the day when I can wander back into my home state with an XDm and an out-of-state permit or apply for a non-resident CA permit.

    I also want my unicorn to be lavender with sky blue wings. Pink is for wusses.

  13. What’s with the interview?
    Do you have a criminal record? Don’t ask me, go to NICS,FBI,NSA or whatever.
    Mental health? With no commitment record, is this where the sheriff shuts you down because you seem “odd”?
    Seems I onced heard the advice, “Don’t talk to cops…EVER”
    Since you no longer will have to articulate a reason for wanting a CCW license. What is there to “talk” about in an interview?
    Wisconsin? Send in your forms, four days later, you get a letter from the Badger with some stiff plastic thing in the envelope.

  14. So, you’ve got to wait as much as a year just for the chance to go before the masters and beg for a right you were born with? How is that not infringement?

      • This. Gun owners there didn’t beg or run to Texas, they fought the issue at the first opportunity and are winning their rights back “at all deliberate speed.”

  15. Whats the shooting test? They put 2 dummies in a pick up & then you swiss cheese it, if there are no fatal hits you pass?.. I thought so.

  16. As Washington CPL (Concealed Pistol License) holder i’m appalled that these people have to wait so long to get a permit! 16 hours of training? Never mind that the fact that some of these people trained at one of the top schools in the country like Front Site. Same old crap! They figure that since they have to comply with the law then they’ll make it as hard as it is to get a permit. But just like in Illinois no matter what you do, a flood of people will still go thru the process to get a permit.

  17. I’m in the good Washington (I can see the Space Needle at the moment). When I moved here, I applied for the WA non-resident permit (that allowed me to keep my AZ driver license and legally carry with my UT CCW permit as a non-resident).
    I made an appointment at the local PD for the next afternoon, walked in, checked my gun at the gun concierge, filled out a form, had my fingerprints scanned, and left. It took just over a month (by law it can take no more than 60 days–30 days for residents) for my CPL to arrive in the mail.
    Of course, around here you can always carry openly while you wait for them to send your CPL.

  18. Long delays aren’t always a result of hostility, sometimes just of indifference, incompetence, and/or poor allocation of resources. I don’t think Maine is remarkably less gun-friendly than New Hampshire, but I applied for my ME & NH non-resident permits last August, got NH’s back in a week, and am still waiting for Maine’s six months later.

  19. Agreed…here in Washington (SEAHAWKS baby, not Redskins) the clerical support staff at the PD couldn’t have been nicer. Even changed their office hours to accommodate me. A few weeks later? Voila. CPL

    And for the most part LEOs are pretty CCW-friendly. Heck I help teach with one and he has me carrying two pistols now instead of one. Far from being uncomfy with civilian carry he’s got me carrying a support side BUG.

  20. A note on the California training requirement. the renewal is 4 hours, and is classroom only, with the class focused on CCWQ laws and legal use of force. The 16 hour class is that four hours, plus the basic gun safety class (and anything else the instructor can think of to fill in the time), keyed to new gun owners. The remaining 8 hours is range training. Renewals do not have to requalify, however some counties require a qualification test for each firearm you list on your permit, including changes, though I really don’t understand why. if you can shoot one, you probably can shoot all of your other guns too.

    • It is not very hard to own a gun (leaving aside restrictions on availibility of some models)

      Go down to the gun store. Pay, fill out some paperwork. Come back 10 days later to pick it up.

      It is legally carrying that is very difficult

  21. Hmmm…a poster on Calguns said he called the 21st of Feb, and his “interview” (which is not part of the process listed in the law) was set for the 28th of Feb…just a week…either they are handing random dates or he was mistaken or they had a huge flood this week

    Stupidly CA law sets a maximum on the initial training (16 hrs) but no minimum (rumors had one sheriff had accept hunter’s safety as good enough). But it sets a minimum (4hrs) on renewal, but no maximum! In anycase, many counties have 8 hrs rather than 16.

    Anyhow, I smell another lawsuit
    FWIW, CA penal code is very clear on one point

    26205. The licensing authority shall give written notice to the applicant indicating if the license under this article is approved or denied. The licensing authority shall give this notice within 90 days of the initial application for a new license or a license renewal, or 30 days after receipt of the applicant’s criminal background check from the Department of Justice, whichever is later. If the license is denied, the notice shall state which requirement
    was not satisfied.

    While the DOJ could delay it this way, it isn’t the culprit this time. The sheriffs are making up a separate stage (interview) and basically claim the clock only starts then. Which is nonsense.

  22. I called called the permitting desk of my (California) Sheriff’s Department twice today. No answer, despite the fact both calls occurred within working hours.

  23. I think it would help to remember there are 58 counties, and the State law has given discretion to Sheriffs to apply “may issue” conditions by their best judgement.

    What happens between now and the deadline for en banc and/or apply for cert- is again, something the individual county has to juggle and deal with fairly while waiting for a final answer.

    I’m not defending any one Sheriff- just noting the obvious, that theres a lot of moving parts, and
    confusing info being spread, while like Dr V admits- he doesn’t have the facts either.

    Sometimes Occam’s Razor is the best – its appears to be a confusing process on all sides,
    and paranoid fantasies at this point are mental mast… at best.

    We’ll note the facts soon enough. Nuff said.

  24. After moving to Western Colorado last July, I applied for my CCW in August after switching over my driver’s license to establish residency. I was told to expect it in 4 months due to the surge in applications, got it in 2. Depending on the county, some might just be trying to avoid getting people’s hopes up. Though we all can guess which counties are more than likely dragging their feet.

    As for the exorbitant costs in time, money, and qualification requirements, I agree that CA has purposefully made it difficult to exercise 2A rights, and they just call it “common sense” or “reasonable restrictions”.

  25. I have this vision of the CCW office at the SD Sheriff Office as this idyllic backwater of administrivia — maybe like Rolls Royce. No pressure. Take your time. Make it good.

    They are going to have to go all Henry Ford up in there…

  26. Some U.S. Census facts that may project the number of
    individuals who will seek a CCW in San Diego County.

    Taken From: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/09000.html

    Connecticut
    2012 Population 3,591,765
    Square miles 4,842.8
    Persons per Sq. Mile 738.1
    Number of Permits to Carry a Pistol or Revolver 200,000

    Taken From: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06/06073.html
    San Diego County
    2012 Population 3,177,063
    Square miles 4,206.63
    Persons per Sq. Mile 735.8

    Number of Conceal Carry Weapons Permits 2,700

  27. I just received a recorded call from the San Diego Sheriff’s office cancelling my interview appointment.

    I will be contacting my elected representative, along with whatever pathetic press we have in SD. This indicates either intentional delay tactics or just plain incompetence.

  28. Finally got through to OC sherriffs yesterday after leaving a message and no call back for days. Interview is for Dec 23. Seriously?!? Whatever… Hopefully it will be a merry Christmas for me.

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