I meandered through the mall the other night. I was checking for changes in shoppers’ situational awareness or security, post-Kenya mall massacre. Needless to say, no. Shoppers’ heads were most definitely not on a swivel (as we armchair ninjas are wont to say). The mall cops were out and about, but in nor greater number or higher state of alert. It occurred to me that the mall offered plenty of cover and concealment and lots of points of egress. The Westgate Mall in Nairobi had only two ways in and out (a third was closed). Security check points. So . . . what if the Kenyan mall shooting happened here?

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86 Responses to Question of the Day: What if the Kenyan Mall Shooting Happened Here?

  1. That would be the end of legal gun ownership here in America.
    It would be a boon for the anti’s and they’d get their wish.
    Smitty

    • Actually the exact opposite would happen because most likely one or more of the mall shoppers Robert mentioned that “heads were most definitely not on a swivel” would react and the gun and the gun owner would become the hero. That is if that mall is not in a state where guns are highly restricted. So I feel damn safe over here in WI and MN because I know many around me are armed including myself. Who’s to say how each individual would react but I believe most who believe in the right to own and carry guns and practice this right daily would react positively to a mall massacre situation.
      Now here in MN, parts of central(Willmar/St. Cloud) and my childhood neighborhood of Riverside on the southeast side of Minneapolis, is packed with a Somali population. I believe this alone puts people on alert not only because of the threat by muslims themselves, at least a certain percentage of them, but sadly as well because of racism. But either way the awareness is high but like most things over time people tend to forget, forgive and become lazy. We all know these people took about 3-4 years to plan the mall massacre, who’s to say there isn’t plans for something just as big or even on a bigger scale right here in the northland or anywhere else?
      Like someone here already commented probably more than once, the most likely target within the US for an attack like this will be a state with restrictive gun laws. Because terrorist may be POS and mindless slaves to their pretend god, but they are not stupid so I have to assume part of their strategy is to have as little resistance as possible and a state with restrictive gun laws would be the first prerequisite for that strategy.

    • Liberal logic: Having unarmed American’s mercilessly gunned down by terrorists is more moral than having armed American citizens be able to shoot back at terrorists, because that would somehow “make the situation worse”.

  2. I don’t know if the mall (Barton Creek, I presume?) is a gun-free zone, but AMC theaters are per corporate policy last time I checked.. Haven’t been there in awhile so I don’t recall if they have 30.06 posted.

  3. I’m sure the attempt would be made to call it anything but what it is -terrorism- and the usual suspects would try and run it up the pole, but it would instill a panic in your average fence sitter like we’ve never seen. People would be forced to confront the reality that nobody is safe, and no amount of laws or police can keep you safe. But it would be ugly. Really, really, ugly.

  4. If it happened tomorrow, unless I had the funds available to buy everything I needed that day, I’m pretty confident I would never finish my unbuilt ARs for less than the price of a nice car.

  5. Depends on the ending.

    If it happens in a pro rights state and the bad guys get cut down by the shoppers, the media will bury the story.

    If it turns into a drawn out Federal crisis,look out.Obama and the Senate will trip over themselves to classify us -and anyone with more then a 59 round box in their cupboard-as terrorists not subject to the laws of the Constitution.

  6. I disagree that it would be a boon to gun grabbers. Terrorists aren’t your typical angry armed madmen. They are fully capable of getting weapons reguardless what the law was. It would finally drive home the point that the only people who would disarm are the people who we don’t fear. If the attack took place in a gun friendly state and citizen brought down several terrorists it would definitely end the gun control movement for a generation.
    It would provide a real world demonstration of why we have the Second Amendment.

    • Real world demonstrations are carried out every day, yet it does not
      phase the anti-rights crowd in the slightest. Nothing will change
      their minds until the antis are held legally liable for disarmament.
      If the antis hold the people of the gun responsible for every nutcase,
      then they should be held responsible for ever crime that could have
      been stopped with a firearm.

  7. I’m pretty sure the local city, county, state, FBI, DHS, and national guard would bring in every special operations team, armored car, tank, black hawk, apache, f-35, b-2, and a handful of drones thatt they each have and end it Waco style in 24 hours or less

    • Especially that SWAT team at the DC Naval Yard [anybody heard about them lately?], since they’re so well rested.

    • “I’m pretty sure the local city, county, state, FBI, DHS, and national guard would bring in every special operations team, armored car, tank, black hawk, apache, f-35, b-2, and a handful of drones that they each have and end it Waco style in 24 hours or less.”

      And then set up a command post where they would spend hours arguing over who has jurisdiction while SWAT negotiators tried to get the terrorists on the phone and negotiate their surrender or offer them pizza and Pepsis in return for releasing a few hostages.

  8. TO: Robert Farago, et al.
    RE: Heh

    What if the Nairobi Westgate Mall Massacre happened amongst US?

    Ever read Tom Clancy’s Teeth of the Tiger?

    Regards,

    Chuck(le)
    [Science fiction writers foresee the inevitable, and although problems and catastrophes may be inevitable, solutions are not. — Isaac Asimov]

    P.S. Clancy doesn’t write Science Fiction. But the Muslims seem to think he has great ideas, e.g., 9/11 based on the final part of his Debt of Honor.

    • Clancy does seem to have an uncanny knack for fortelling these sorts of things. After all, our borders are pretty much wide open.

      We can only hope for enough concealed carriers with a sense of adventure I suppose.

      But as to an actual attack the scale of Kenya and the aftermath, look for more surveillance, more getting felt up at transport hubs, more random missile strike, more troop deployments, and more fun grabs. Just more of everything that has zero possibility of accomplishing anything.

      • TO: Steve Ramsey, et al.
        RE: Clancy’s Clairvoyance

        Clancy does seem to have an uncanny knack for fortelling these sorts of things. After all, our borders are pretty much wide open. — Steve Ramsey

        Based on my years of preparing State Area Commands (STARCs)—state National Guard Adjutants General and the staffs—to respond to national emergencies, e.g., Gulf Wars, and natural disasters, e.g., Katrinas, Clancy is not just a psychic….he’s inadvertantly aiding and abetting the enemy….by giving them good ideas.

        Not that I’d prosecute Clancy for his writings. Rather, I damn the intell, law enforcement and defense communities for not getting a ‘clue’.

        Look at the blackguards in charge of the FBI when one of the own gave them a heads-up on 9/11 before it happened. And they poo-poohed her….

        Dumber than dirt. It was Pearl Harbor all over again. And it hasn’t improved since then—-ten years ago.

        • P.S. It will be the same with any mall massacre here in the US.

          A lot of promises on the part of the security community, but a lot of dead bodies elsewhere.

          A ‘mall’, like any other ‘Gun Free Zone’ is just a shooting gallery for any terrorist.

          Doubt this?

          Look at Holmes. Look at Klebold and Harris. Look at Lanza.

          There Free Fire Zones were all declared ‘No Gun Zones’.

          And law enforcement wasn’t able to save a single life. The blackguards are abject failures.

          The only one who can save your life is either Christ or yourself….properly prepared (1) mentally and (2) physically.

    • Did anyone read the last 50 pages of “Debt of Honor”? That one may have influenced ‘Operation Bojinka’ that Ramzi al-Yousef came up with in 1995 — which was played out in NYC and DC six years later.

      Only the passengers on Flight 93 kept that one from coming true. Saw an interview with an F-16 pilot based at Andrews on 9-11, she was going to go up in an unarmed Falcon and *ram* the plane because they didn’t have time to arm the planes.

  9. People have a wonderful ability to tell themselves that it can’t happen here. It can happen here, but until it does John Q. Public will tell himself that it won’t.

    If the terrorists are plainly islamic with a hate message to go with the massacre and they use military type weapons and explosives not easily obtained by John Q. Public then it probably means little to pass new gun laws. It might even have the effect of getting people that previously didn’t want guns to rethink their positions.

    But if the terrorists are all home grown with weapons available to John Q. Public, watch out.

    • Not just ‘watch out’….

      ….BE PREPARED!

      And don’t shop where firearms are not allowed. THAT will get them. Especially if you tell them about it.

  10. I don’t believe a federal gun ban would be passed but in the gun grabber states it would lead to a complete gun ban of any “assault weapon” type; as Feinstein said ” turn them all in”. No grandfathering, no exceptions. Then the Supreme would determine if that was constitutional

    In the gun friendly states, there would be a push to outlaw gun free zones, which would pass in some of them.

    Oh, and the run on ammo and guns would make a desert of any gun store or ammo supply.

  11. The “lone, mad gunman” over here in Clackamas is believed to have been stopped by a young man with c concealed handgun. That is, concealed until he drew down on the gunman but realized his backstop were innocents, so he held his fire. Bad guy saw this, went into a hallway and whacked himself.

    • That’s the report I heard about the Clackamas Mall shooting.

      Personally….

      ….I’d have maneuvered to a place where I wasn’t concerned about the ‘backstops’.

      That includes sliding up behind him and shooting him up his sphincter.

    • “…in Clackamas is believed to have been stopped by a young man with a concealed handgun. That is, concealed until he drew down on the gunman but realized his backstop were innocents, so he held his fire…”

      While we all must be ever cognizant of the four rules, there is a possible fifth rule that should be discussed: If you take your shot, or two, and hit, no harm, problem solved. If you take a shot and miss, MAYBE you hit a bystander. But if you DO NOT take a shot then every single innocent who is shot by the bad guy after that moment in time is on you. In an Active Shooter situation the normal rules of engagement MUST be recognized for the guidelines they are and the risk of NOT taking the shot must become just as important as the risks of shooting and missing.

      • Agree, Cliff. “But wait, there’s more!” When the FBI carried out it’s post-Miami-Shootout search for a new handgun caliber (leading first to the 10mm, then to .40 cal) they conducted many tests. One of the SSA’s in charge of the process, working at the FBI Quantico Firearms Training Unit, Urey Patrick, answered post-process questions. Regarding “over-penetration” he said:

        “Over-penetration is a myth we created when trying to overcome the public’s resistance to JHP ammunition, and we started to believe it ourselves. We know of no case in which legal action resulted from a bullet passing through a bad guy.” “Only 20-30% of FBI shots fired (by the FBI -ed) hit the intended perpetrator. Yet people are worried about over-penetrating the bad guy?”

  12. The mall of America has their own in house police force provided by the city. That would be a tough nut to crack. As in real police. A smaller mall with security is otherwise going to be armed with batons and pepper spray at best. If terrorist were to attack a mall in the u.s., i believe people would take less anti gun stance. If it is a rampage by a domestic nut job, then it is the guns fault.

  13. Working as an armed security officer currently stationed in an upscale Florida mall, it is a question I have often thought of. The “what if it happened here?” has more than once crossed my mind as I watch the very wealthy spend obscenely. An act such as that, even if successfully thwarted by armed professionals, would add fuel to the the anti-2A crowd’s fire. While the situation may be stopped dead in its tracks by a person with a firearm, the only firearms remembered by the press will be those carried by the offenders, supporting the anti-2A position. I am thankful that my job requires that I carry, and no uniform, as I wear a suit…….just in case the mall I work at gets a visit from bad guys with bad things on their minds……

    • I made a fact-finding expedition to my closest local mall (Tacoma Mall) yesterday. This was the scene of an attempted mass shooting (meth-head, not terrorist) in 2005, where 6 people were wounded. This was also the event that inspired me to finally get a CC permit.

      To their credit, and possibly as a result of an armed citizen (failing miserably) to stop this attack, Tacoma Mall is NOT posted as a gun free zone. That said, situational awareness by the shoppers is non-existent. Mall cops are very neatly uniformed, polite, and tactically unarmed. I did see a Tacoma police cruiser parked near the entrance to the Food Court, and another at the North entrance, but if the officers were there for more than lunch I could not tell and I never spotted them. My final assessment – I WILL NOT go into that mall during the holiday rush. I may check out a few other malls in the area, mostly to see if they are posted GFZs, but I suspect I will find them to be equally as dangerous as far as defensibility.

      It is VERY obvious that in the design and construction of the modern shopping mall absolutely NO ONE has given any consideration to the possibility of preventing or defending against a determined attack. Sounds like a lucrative business opportunity for some security company entrepreneur. And if any of them think posting Gun Free Zone signs solves the problem I suspect their malls will be the first to prove them wrong.

  14. if a terrorist attack happens, it will be labeled a terrorist attack and get about the same attention as the Navy Yard Shooter. People will not blame gun laws for terrorism. I doubt they are going to go for the Austin Mall. Nor are they going to go for a gun-free zone per se. They are going to go for a highly visible, iconic, target that they think strikes at the “heart” of the country. Like the “Mall of America,” because you know, its America’s Mall, and they will plan their tactics accordingly. Honestly, though, I do not see a bunch of CCW carriers with handguns holding them back. They will probably have big guns, vests, grenades, and so forth.

  15. There would be a lot more casualties as those Kenyans can run vs the average American shopper.
    In the US we have forgotten rule #1: Cardio

  16. Is it my imagination, or were most of the handguns seen in these, and other images, mostly 1911s? As to whether a terrorist attack in a mall in America would lead to changes, I think inevitably there would be calls for stricter background checks, mag limits, and the like, plus DiFi would be out there screaming for AW bans. Same old same old. Not that that would make any difference anywhere but in the northeast and California. Notice how quickly the noise died after the Navy Yard shootings? On a national level, gun control is a dead issue–at least for now.

    Conversely, a true terrorist attack could spur calls to loosen regulations on guns, because there sure as shootin’ would be a huge surge in handgun sales immediately afterward.

  17. First by the time the local cops did go in , all the killing and shots would be over , the Feds. would be a day late and a dollar short as always. The bad guys would get away looking like regular shoppers, carrying bags with clothing etc. And Obama would get on TV and call for Martial law and open the FEMA camps to round up all gun owners.

  18. What do you mean “…if…”?

    It will happen here, sooner or later.

    I’m sorry, but people in the West, and America specifically, have no clue how hard Islam has fought against the “kafir” over the last 1400 years.

    “Why We Are Afraid, A 1400 Year Secret, by Dr Bill Warner”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y

    This war that Islam is waging against us dates back to the Eastern Roman Empire. You think that 3000 dead on 9/11 is bad? Or do you think that a single Mall Massacre in Africa is bad? Or maybe perhaps a school in Beslen being taken over by terrorists is bad? It is SOP for Islam. Tamerlane killed 90,000 men, women and children in one single day. He was just following the example of his “prophet” (piss be upon him.) Mo’ slaughtered the Jews of the Banu Qurayza tribe.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza
    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Genocide_of_Banu_Qurayza

    Another terrorist attack is going to happen, maybe on American soil, maybe not, and another is going to happen against after that, and then another, and another until we in the Civilized World stand up, and crush them completely.

    • It is estimated that there are 1.65 BILLION Muslims in the world. It is further estimated that approximately 10% of the Muslim population may be extremists willing to kill, and die, for their religious beliefs. That means there are somewhere around 165 Million Islamo-fascists who want to kill you or dominate you if you will not submit to Islam and Sharia law.

      The good news is that they have no logistical means to get all those fanatics in place to mount an attack. The bad news is that we have no effective controls in place, even after 9/11, to prevent enough to get through to mount effective and liberty destroying terrorist attacks not IF they choose, but WHEN they choose. As mentioned above, theirs is a long-term jihad and they are not likely to stop anytime soon.

      W cannot use this to condemn all Muslims. I have known and worked for some who were decent and reasonable men. But until the Muslims find a way within their own religious/social organization to resolve the problem of militant radicals killing in the name of Islam and Allah we must ever be wary of their presence in our society. I do not condone bigotry against any religious group, but

      “If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.” – Thomas Jefferson

  19. Given the established connection between certain Twin Cities mosques, and the recruitment of radical Somalis, the iconic Mall of America is a good bet, as sad as it is to admit it. A large number of my armed friends and associates recognize the risk and do not shop there regularly for this very reason, particularly on weekends when the population is high. The number of armed citizens present at that mall on any given day is impossible to estimate. I would estimate the number to be higher than most people realize. It is likely that at least some of them would attempt engage active shooters. Remember, a substantial percentage of these types of people have combat experience. They have been shot at before. More would attempt to herd the unarmed into areas in shops, where they might button up and try to use their armed state to provide some level of protection. LE is VERY aware of the risk, and runs active contingency training on a regular basis. They would come heavy, and they know what to do. But, the sheer size of the facility and its multiple routes of ingress and egress would make it a formidable tactical problem, People would die, but I believe the numbers would be lessened by the presence of armed citizens..

    • The novel Soft Target by Stephen Hunter is exactly this scenario at the Mall of America. It is one of the Bob Lee Swagger (Shooter movie) novels.

  20. The mall shooting in Oregon got exactly one day of media coverage. As soon as the truth came out that a man with a legally carried concealed handgun stopped the shooter lame-stream media went silent. So I expect it would be their springboard to strip us of the second amendment unless it was stopped by a permit holder in which case they would sweep it under the rug again.

    • Great timing on this article and your reply. My wife and I went over to the Clackamas Town Center yesterday where this shooting occurred. Except for me and my wife, everyone I saw was in “condition white” including their unarmed mall security. It had been a few years since I visited that mall, so it shocked me a bit to see a few serious gang-bangers waddling around like penguins in their down-to-the-knee blue jeans contrasting the good people out for a day of shopping. The Portland area is so liberal that they will not arm mall security in a mall with a strict no-gun policy even though the mall sits in a tremendously high crime area. Luckily, this mall does such a poor job posting easily viewed signs that those with concealed handgun permits do not know that legal conceal carry is against mall policy, for it saved a lot of people that day months ago.

      • At what point in our sociological evolution will we (the corporations, that is) come to realize that the advice of their lawyers on the potential financial liability of allowing armed security and armed citizens in their establishment(s) is FAR outweighed by the liability of patrons being killed or injured in their Gun Free Zones? (If it can save ONE life!) Perhaps only after one or more of these corporations is sued into oblivion by survivors and relatives of victims killed or wounded in their GFZ malls.

        • Sued into oblivion? Not going to happen. The standard is negligence, i.e., that the owner/occupant knew or should have known of a dangerous condition of its property, that that dangerous condition presented a foreseeable risk of injury, the occupier failed to take adequate steps to prevent it, and that this negligence was the legal cause of the injury. As a general proposition, the criminal misconduct of third persons is not considered foreseeable, or in the alternative, is an intervening intentional act that relieves the owner/occupant of liability because the condition of the property was not a “cause” of the injury. California has lead the way in finding a way to impose liability–and then promptly turning around and strictly limiting the ability of plaintiffs to prove causation and thereby recover damages. For example, if there is a badly lit parking lot, and that parking lot has a history of violent crime, then liability will be imposed. But liability will not be imposed simply because the business is located in a bad neighborhood. Nor will the courts impose a duty on a landowner to hire private security, except, for example, the property is a bar and there are fights outside at closing every night. Crime happens, and just because it happens on your property is not a reason, standing alone, to impose liability for damages.
          As many of us recognize, there is a conflict between your right to bear arms and my right as an owner of private property to decide who gets to carry them on my land. As a practical matter, or as matter of public policy/legal policy, I cannot foresee a court telling private property owners that they cannot bar people from carrying firearms on private property. nor do I see courts imposing a duty of the land owner to protect persons coming on the land from the criminal misconduct of third persons–as a landowner, I have no duty to protect you from a home invasion robbery, whether I have disarmed you or not. That will not change.

  21. When I go to large open events these days such as shopping malls, at a minimum I carry a full size handgun in a potent caliber with at least 43 rounds of ammunition. Depending on my mood, I might also bring a carbine chambered in the pistol caliber .40 S&W. With that firearm I can hit pie plates all day long at 50 yards and the 16 inch barrel ups the venerable .40 S&W to full power .357 Magnum ballistics (compared to a .357 Magnum revolver with a 4 inch barrel).

    I will put a serious crimp in their style if a few terrorists appear where I happen to be.

  22. First, Obama would address this remark to any photo of the masked Muslims caught by security cameras: “He could have been my son”. Second, the Kenyan terrorists posed as shopkeepers and set up a shop, enabling them to have access to the tunnels, cellars and access areas behind the mall facade. This was a very well planned, highly organized attack. And probably most deaths were caused by Army and police using explosives to get at the terrorists.

    This was probably a prototype or test run for a mall attack in America. The loyalty of every proffessed Muslim in America must be called into question, as their first duty is to obey Mohammed’s commandments. One of which is to attack any nation which kills Muslims, which America does. Do you fully trust your Muslim neighbors? Do they have weapons?

    Some might call a shopping mall a retail experience. Those with military experience might call it a kill zone. The size of the mall only adds to the vulnerability of the shoppers. There are very many Muslims in America, courtesy of the Western world’s humanitarian acceptance of refugees from famine and war resulting from upheavals in mainly Muslim areas of the world. This looks a little stupid in light of the current situation. Maybe time to send them back?

    • I cannot condone bigotry against any ethnic or religious group, but I do think a little bit of prejudice is in order. By that I mean; what is Condition Orange if it is not a level of (conditional) prejudice? And the murderous actions of militant Islam world wide have certainly earned all self-identified Muslims the onus of a certain degree of prejudice. Just as I would be prejudiced against anyone openly exhibiting gang tattoos and dressing or acting like a gang-banger, so I must be cautious when I observe anyone appearing by their clothing or actions to be Muslim. It bothers me, but that is the world we live in and they are the ones who have made it necessary.

      But be very careful. The leaders of the militants have shown that they are more than ready and able to throw this Politically Correct fear of appearing prejudiced back at us in order to improve their tactics, techniques and infiltration of our society. We can never let a false perception of bigotry fostered by our enemies allow us to drop our rational judgment of risk factors.

    • I never met my paternal grandmother because she died ten plus years before I was born. But I do know that she was living in Chicago during the First World War and with her reputed thick German accent I suspect she was subject to a bit of suspicion and some hostility. You know something, she probably was sympathetic to her native Germany. I think it fair and reasonable to consider people who have not completely cut their cultural ties to the homeland a potential threat. That isn’t bigotry, it’s common sense.

      • The corollary to this (and I don’t disagree from a threat-assessment standpoint) is that by limiting your threat list to externally-observable characteristics of dress, appearance and accent you have the potential to get screwed by someone outside the threat envelope.

        Example: the Lod Airport massacre in 1972:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lod_Airport_massacre

        When you’re focused on Palestinian terrorism, the Japanese terrorists can sucker-punch you pretty hard. Behavioral profiling works a lot better, which is why that is what the Israelis specialize in now.

        Someone carrying a guitar case, backpack or a box big enough to house a long gun in a mall gets my full attention…from behind the best cover I can casually find.

        A group carrying those things that splits up into twos would also be suspicious.

        Anyone with non-cellphone coms gear gets my attention.

        People wearing too much outer clothing for a given situation also gets my attention. A windbreaker on a 90-degree day is worrisome.

        A list of commonly-observed characteristics of people up to no good is available here:

        http://www.forensic-medical.nl/site/forensic/site.nsf/pages/8b8cau-suicide-bomber-detection.html

  23. That exact thing happens toward the beginning of Tom Clancy’s Teeth of the Tiger. A couple of CC’ers, though they are off duty government men, pop the BG’s before the cops turn up.

  24. We can only hope that if it happen in the U.S ala Clancy’s ‘Teeth of the Tiger’ that a fast and furious gun is found in the rubble….next to a terrorist taken down by a cpl holder….

  25. It wouldn’t happen here because despite the fact that it could happen, the police don’t crank off RPG’s at anything that moves like a noob playing BF3.

  26. what the left is waiting for, is something like this to happen and all of the CCW’s end up shooting each other while they are trying to figure out who the bad guys are. Do you only shoot when shot at? How would you know who the baddies are versus regular joe’s walking around trying to GTFO and evac. God help us if this day ever happens.

    • The bad guys will be the ones shouting islamic slogans while randomly firing at women and children. They probably won’t be middle aged guys with bifocals and compact pistols ushering women and children to safety.

      Seems actually kind of simple to pick the bad guys out in this scenario.

        • Even in a random shooting spree. Most of these guys are young men and armed with long guns. CCW people that carry regular are mostly middle to later age, at least in my experience.

          If you’re in a mall and shots start, who’s the threat? The guy in the trench coat, 20 years old and carrying a rifle or shotgun or the white haired guy with a snubbie .38 trying to guide his grand kids away from the commotion?

          Every scenario is different, of course, but they do seem to have some common themes running thru them.

        • I’m 32. An older man might mistake me for a 20 something. The way you’ll spot me as a likely good guy, is I won’t be firing indiscriminately, and ill be behind cover or good concealment. The suicidal terrorist or nut, will be be easy to spot. He will be shooting at anything that moves.

  27. TO: All
    RE: Law Enforcement

    It’s not about protecting the citizens.

    It IS all about recording information for the lawyers and courts to play around with.

    When it comes to defending yourself and your family and/or neighbors….

    ….YOU’RE ON YOUR OWN, BUCKIE!

    Or as I like to say….

    When the shooting starts, you are either a combatant or you are a pop-up target.

  28. I have a terrible feeling that a school or mall attack or something similar like a hospital etc will hit us. It is too good of a target for terrorist. Honestly after September 11, I thought it would have happened by now.
    With all the media such an attack would get, the morons who do it would gladly do everything possible to make it every news outlets wet dream. Sickening, but is it what it is. I just hope it never happens. But I will not be one of the unarmed victims.

    Of course the anti-rights crowd have been salivating for any tragedy to move on on removing more of our rights…Something like the Kenya attack would start an attack on Americans rights before the last shell casing hits the floor.

    Is it bad that I see our media as almost an enabler to tragedies that are used to push agendas?
    Or just realistic?

  29. That all depends on where the “here” is that you’re talking about. If “here” is in Florida, we have a chance that concealed carry Floridians will step up and do their part. If “here” is in NY or NJ, it’s anyone’s guess.

    If “here” means America in general, again, it all depends on which state is unlucky enough to be “here” when a terrorist attack happens. Since the Left isn’t going to stop being the Left, it will depend on the outcome. Imagine what two competent armed people could have done at the Nairobi mall when the first shots were fired. If the terrorists started taking loses before they reached the interior of the mall, this might have turned out a lot differently. Here’s hoping we don’t have to find out.

    • If it’s a planned attack by terrorists it won’t be Nevada or any other shall issue state. They’ll pick a soft target where they can generate mass casualties. It’ll be California or NJ or NYC or Chicago or Hawaii.

  30. Saw an article a few years ago around the time of Beslan that basically said there were three units that could handle a Beslan-style situation: Delta, Seal Team Six and FBI’s HRT. Your average SWAT unit can get into a building and kill everyone inside in nothing flat, but it’s the not-killing of the hostages that is the problem. You can read manuals all day long but just because you have matchy-matchy plate carriers and really nice tactical pants does not make you an operator on the level of people who fire thousands of rounds of ammo a month in live-fire drills. The other observation of the exercise is that if we have ONE Beslan-style incident then there’s a chance to get one of those teams on the scene, but if there are six at the same time, people are going to have to make do. This means a lot of small coffins.

    A mall with 10-20 armed citizens when the balloon goes up is better than nothing, absolutely. But realistically, people with shoulder arms have a tremendous advantage over people with packable pistols, particularly the kinds of guns most people likely carry in no-carry places (e.g., the most concealable ones). The kind of handgun you have on you for “better this than nothing” situations is probably not the one you want to clear a mall, or even a path through a mall, with. What do I want in terms of a handgun if something like that happens? A 9mm Glock 34 with a chest rig full of 33-round mags is my best initial thought, but there probably aren’t a lot of us that carry long-slide Glocks as CCW weapons, much less a brace of 33-rounders for backups.

    The optimal situation is if a T breaks cover with their back to you, starts shooting and graciously fails to check-6 while you draw and punch their brainstem from 10 feet or less. Any other situation places a handgun user at a severe and possibly fatal disadvantage. If they’re between your family and an exit you have no choice but to engage, but otherwise your best bet is probably to just get out with whoever you can get to go while you cover.

    A Westgate-style attack in the US seems to sadly be more a matter of time than a hypothetical. It will be harder in free states, for sure — but the likelihood of someone trying seems to be very high. If nothing else, other avenues to terrorist events have been made harder targets. Planes are out. Hard to get fertilizer now, and anthrax is 2002. As Bruce Scheiner says, if you give terrorists a hard way and an easy way, they’ll take the easy way. Malls are much easier than banks, police stations and government installations. Hardening up other targets just increases the likelihood that you’ll get hit where your systems aren’t hardened.

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