This is What Happens to a Disarmed Populace: Egypt Edition

"A young man next to the bodies of protesters killed on Wednesday. Many of the dead were shot in the head or chest; some appeared to be in their early teens." (caption and photo courtesy nytimes.com)

“Egyptian security officers stormed two encampments packed with supporters of the ousted president, Mohamed Morsi, on Wednesday in a scorched-earth assault that killed hundreds, set off a violent backlash across Egypt and underscored the new government’s determination to crush the Islamists who dominated two years of free elections,” nytimes.com reports. “The attack, the third mass killing of Islamist demonstrators since the military ousted Mr. Morsi six weeks ago, followed a series of government threats. But the scale — lasting more than 12 hours, with armored vehicles, bulldozers, tear gas, birdshot, live ammunition and snipers — and the ferocity far exceeded the Interior Ministry’s promises of a gradual and measured dispersal.” While none of the participants in this power struggle are what I’d call “pro-democracy” (or pro Constitutional republic), slaughtering civilians is never acceptable. And it’s never done without first disarming those civilians. In this case, allegedly, proactively. “Hazem el-Beblawi, the interim prime minister and a Western-trained economist who had been considered a liberal, cited the Islamists’ supposed stockpiling of weapons and ammunition to argue that the use of force was justified to protect the rights of other citizens.” Sound familiar? Let’s hope not.

 

comments

  1. avatar percynjpn says:

    slaughtering civilians is never acceptable

    Of course not; but unless you were there, you don’t know how much violence the demonstrators used against the troops/cops before and during the whole event, though the reported numbers of those who were shot certainly appear to indicate excess on the part of the authorities. But since the Brotherhood and their supporters are known mass murderers of any who oppose them and many hundreds of innocent Egytian Christians amonst others, who knows what the true facts are?

    1. avatar marlin says:

      My father was present at a similar slaughter 23 years ago, Tiananmen square. The song remains the same.

    2. avatar int19h says:

      It should be noted that the number of army and police casualties are already well over a hundred, so I would also view the claims of “unarmed protesters massacred” here with a grain of salt.

  2. avatar ST says:

    In defense of the interim Egyptian leadership,their backs are against the wall.They have a pro-fundamentalist Islamist party in their borders; and as the Gaza Strip and recent events with Morsi demonstrate,when fundamentalists can’t take power legally they get guns and start a civil war.Better for the Egyptian government to take the fight to the Islamists now before Hamas and Co. can send backup and arms.

    Mr Farago ,while I agree that civilians should not be attacked out of hand,what Egypt faces is akin to a Cartel cell operating in America.Those kinds of scumbags won’t leave without force.

  3. avatar Tom says:

    “slaughtering civilians is never acceptable” That’s so quaint.
    There are no civilians here. Just Islamist and everybody else.

    1. avatar OkieRim says:

      Exactly, this is a hot mess, neither side is pro-western unless it means getting some money or military gear. Even the Christian Coptics (in Egypt) have participated in terror acts, including against jews. I could care less, unless they spread this crap to Israel, block the Suez Canal or some other stupid move.

    2. avatar neiowa says:

      dittos. Define “civilian” Fair assumption the the radical Mohammaden camp is awash in firepower. Up to and including SA7 (see Libya).

      No good guys in this mess. Trust Obuma to pick the worst choice and stick with it.

  4. avatar JeffR says:

    There are no good guys in this fight and very few lessons for us to learn from it. (Well, perhaps, maybe one lesson. Don’t engage in a fight with a guy with a gun if you don’t have a gun.)

    1. avatar Chuck Pelto says:

      The MB’s have guns. They just don’t want to use them at this point. They’re more interested in making PR hay.

      1. avatar OkieRim says:

        How soon the MSM forgets who came from the good old MB:
        Hamas, MB claims to help set up Hamas, who we all know are thugs and killers.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

  5. avatar Russ Bixby says:

    Many of the protesters are likely only protesting because the military threw out someone who was voted in, and they fear a return to the old ways.

    No good. Not good at all.

    1. avatar Chuck Pelto says:

      TO: Russ Bixby
      RE: Returning to the ‘Old Ways’?

      You mean where the Muslim Brotherhood was considered an outlaw organization of militant terrorists?

      The military threw the MB President and Parliament out because they’re policies were (1) terrorism supporting and (2) on the verge of causing Egypt to starve to death.

      Regards,

      Chuck(le)
      [The Truth will out…..]

    2. avatar JT says:

      Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood Were completely disregarding the courts on how constitutional changes were supposed to be made (among other things) and giving themselves dictatorial powers that put them 100% above oversight. Without the military intervening, Egypt would have never had a fair election again and it would have been far far worse than the “old ways” with an Islamist extremist government instead of a secular one.

  6. avatar arthur says:

    Kinda hard for me to have much sympathy for the moslem bros. I guess seeing airplanes fly into buildings has just made me bitter

    1. avatar Anmut says:

      ^^ This. I will never forget.

      1. avatar Tom in Oregon says:

        I’ll be willing to donate some of my ammo to both sides….

  7. avatar dark alley dan says:

    Folks of a fundamentalist Muslim nature love their martyrs. You can never kill enough of them to make them shut up, go away, or quit. Every one you put in the ground breeds one or two more. Their faith is not big on forgiveness.

    There’s a lesson to be learned in this somewhere…

    1. avatar Tom says:

      It would appear that Sommerset was right, wouldn’t it? It all comes down to blowing their heads off.

  8. avatar NCG says:

    First off, we should accurately say “U.S. – backed military coup”, which is why the State Department has tied itself in knots trying to avoid using the c-word, since legally we can’t give aid to illegitimate coup governments. The Egyptian Military doesn’t take a piss without the U.S. says so. Look who trained there leadership, and look who continues to give them massive quantities of weapons, from shiny F-16s on down to tear gas canisters and bootlaces. They are second only to Israel in U.S. military aid.

    Like so many Latin American countries of yore, the Egyptians made the mistake of voting for a guy that the U.S. (and in this case perhaps Israel) doesn’t like. Not to say Morsi wasn’t totally blowing it with his authoritarian antics, but as religious parties go, the Muslim Brotherhood is relatively mellow. Certainly no worse than the Christian Right in this country. Imagine if Pat Robertson actually became President.

    A lot of people who are pissed off about the coup in Egypt are not Morsi supporters, but people who wanted to see the constitutional process take its course. While they are not a majority by any means, Egypt has a lot of educated young polyglot secular leftists who were the technological vanguard of the Arab Spring, as well as a lot of people who are mostly concerned about jobs and the economy, and just want the madness to end so they can get back to work. Like many Middle Eastern countries, Egypt suffers from a brain drain as wealthier, educated professionals simply leave.

    While I agree that Egyptians, like everyone, should have the natural right to armed self defense, I think it would not help in this case. Non-violent action is more politically effective (consider Syria vs. Egypt). A few dozen AKs in a crowd of thousands would justify bringing in the helicopter gunships, and it would be just like Gaza and the West Bank, maybe worse.

    I suspect that some U.S.-approved puppet will be installed and semi-stability will return, but it would have been much better to just let Egypt sort out its own affairs.

    1. avatar neiowa says:

      I think you missed some of the details of the last year.

      Morsi IS the Obuma hand picked and installed puppet. And just as Obuma, the guy was and abysmal failure as a leader.

      We HAVE armed/finance the Egyptian Army but they are substantially independent of the civil gov’t (like many 3rd world or Commie nations). They largely answer to themselves.

      The GOOD OLD DAYS in Egypt? Which days would that be? Nasser? Sadat? Mubarak?

      1. avatar Fug says:

        Indeed, it is demonstrable that Obama has close ties to the Muslim Brotherhood through Hillary Clinton’s aide, Huma Abedin. That woman is a Muslim and is not really married to the very Jewish Anthony Weiner. Bill Clinton himself presided over their nuptials, it is a total fraud and invalid under Islamic law, which Huma’s family recognizes.

        Obama also grew up in Muslim Indonesia and visited Pakistan in the 1980s. Obama may not be a Muslim, but he has clear ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and also the Rockefeller family via Clinton, Brzezinski and his own mother’s work for the Ford Foundation. Obama is 100% Rockefeller, he even hangs out with Jay-Z who calls himself “Roccafellah.” Jay-Z uses “illuminati” symbolism in marketing his music and has even taken to flashing a pyramid over his eye. I wonder how Egyptians feel about that?

        The Egyptian Military is opposed to all of this and they have taken a stand. It is not clear who exactly is supporting them, but there seems to be some collaboration with the Israeli right and perhaps Russia. Personally I think it is a beautiful thing. This has the potential to get really nasty but it is long past time someone taught Obama and his backers a lesson.

        1. avatar NCG says:

          Fug, as I may have mentioned, I, too, have a 10 gallon tinfoil hat. You just keep at it, and I will, too. But, with respect, I do think you’re FLAME DELETED. Doubtless you have similar feelings about me. Peace be upon you.

        2. avatar NCG says:

          FLAME DELETED = “full of, um, baloney?” Perhaps a different processed meat? Again, peace and respect.

        3. avatar Adam says:

          Obama (and our PM Harper) threw their weight behind the Muslim Brotherhood, because they were the strong horse. Oh, and they are a few degrees to the left of the Salafists. Whatever you think of the MB, military coups do not equal democracy. Telling the majority of Egyptian voters (who did vote MB) that their votes are worth nothing because they voted the ‘wrong’ way will have an explosive effect on the public mood. Whatever people think of the MB, Westerners should support the will of the Egyptian electorate, as nothing good comes from making the military the final arbiters of democracy–we may one day see something like this, in our countries.

      2. avatar NCG says:

        neiowa, first off I never said anything about “Good Old Days” in Egypt, you may be confusing me with someone else. Egypt’s modern history consists of a series of vile dictators, supported by the Soviet Union, and later the U.S.

        Secondly, I don’t believe Morsi was the first choice of the Obama administration, though if you can offer evidence that he was, I’ll take it seriously. I agree that the U.S. hoped he’d be a bit more moderate. Please note that the U.S. has long abided and even embraced extreme theocratic Muslim rule in Saudi Arabia. The Saudi clerics make the Muslim Brotherhood look like hippies. Also, it was mostly Saudis who allegedly attacked us on 9/11.

        http://issuepedia.org/wikiup/3/30/513.jpg

        Thirdly, you discredit yourself by saying “Obuma.” I empathize, as I sometimes referred to our previous president as Shrub, but in retrospect, it actually undermined my credibility. I never bought into the notion that G.W. is stupid (he’s obviously not), but he certainly pissed me off. Obama also pisses me off in many ways, especially his escalation of the Surveillance State, but left or right, name calling hurts credibility. Feel free to unleash the “Libtard” now.

        Finally, I still believe that the Egyptian military (which is large, well trained, well paid, and well armed) answers to its U.S. masters. Not to say there aren’t divisions in the ranks.

        1. avatar Fug says:

          With all due respect to you NCG, Huma’s family is from Saudi Arabia. Her father and other members of her family are closely tied to the Muslim Brotherhood. There is no distinction between the Saudi clerics and the MB, other than a superficial one made by the media to cover for the fact that the MB are a fifth column that works for the west. Rockefeller interests have a vested interest in promoting the MB because they have actually been working together all along.

          The Saudis were recently begging the Russians not to support Egypt in exchange for a multi-billion dollar arms contract, so how can you imply they are not in bed with Morsi? They have been called in to do the job because Qatar screwed it up. The Egyptians have a long standing relationship with Russia and recent events are not good news for American prestige. This coup completely undermines Obama’s liberal foreign policy.

          The Muslim Brotherhood is a secret society, comparable to Freemasonry complete with ties to British colonialism. They are terrorist scum that answer to the people who run OUR country and that is disgraceful. The Egyptian military we are seeing today is working independently regardless of what role they may have played in the past. They are working to defend Egypt from Obama’s de-facto neocolonialism via the Muslim Brothers.

        2. avatar NCG says:

          Fug, I’m surprised by how much I agree with you on many the facts, but my conclusions are not the same. We shall see, no? I think you vastly overestimate the importance of Huma, though I have no feelings about her one way or the other. Saying that someone’s family is closely tied to the Muslim Brotherhood is like saying someone’s great uncle is a Republican, or a Mason, to use your example. The MB is a large, diverse, mainstream political organization.

      3. avatar NCG says:

        Adam, I think we’re about there with the National Security Industrial Complex, or whatever you want to call it.

    2. avatar Jerry says:

      Looks like Egypt is sorting this out. Yeah, i guess Morsi was “totally blowing it dude” by that whole granting himself “temporary” unlimited powers thing. I guess as far as terrorists go they are pretty mellow.

    3. avatar Jean Paul says:

      You’re a bit off there, NCG. The Obama administration orchestrated and supported the protestors who pushed for the ouster of Mubarak. The same goes for Libya and the current debacle in Syria. We are behind the rebels—who happen to be Al Qaeda.

      CNN recently reported that there were “dozens” of CIA operatives on the ground at Benghazi. Why so much CIA there? Perhaps that has something to do with the anti-aircraft missiles just reported missing from Libya?

      The Obama administration has been orchestrating the removal of relatively secular and non-Jihadi(even Quadaffi allowed women and non-Muslims rights) regimes and supports their replacement with Islamists. Why? It’s insane, but that’s what’s happening—-and the mainstream media paints the Jihadists as FREEDOM FIGHTERS. Lunacy.

  9. avatar gunyouzer says:

    An armed society is a polite society.

  10. avatar Swarf says:

    when fundamentalists can’t take power legally

    You mean like voting in Morsi? They did take power legally. That’s how democracy works over there, apparently. Hey, it’s their country, right? At least until the military steps in and declares the will of the people null and void, of course.

    I think Islamists are fuckwads, but you can’t say that Morsi wasn’t a democratically elected President.

    There is truly no one worthy to root for in this fight.

    1. avatar int19h says:

      >> I think Islamists are fuckwads, but you can’t say that Morsi wasn’t a democratically elected President.

      He certainly was, but then any legitimacy he had as such evaporated overnight when he started mucking around with the Constitution on his own. That was a coup, and what happened afterwards was ousting the coup leaders.

      Of course, it’s still not exactly back to normal, either. At this point democracy has pretty much failed: they tried it, elected a guy, and the guy and his party proceeded to dismantle the democratic institutes that got them into power, citing popular mandate as a basis. This is a constitutional crisis that cannot be resolved by normal means. I mean, what, should they hold another election now? And what if that elects Mursi/MB again with a 50%+1 vote, and they start suppressing the remaining 49%?

      The peaceful solutions have been exhausted. What we’re seeing in Egypt is the beginning of a true civil war, and force of arms will decide who will get to run the country, and how.

  11. avatar Aharon says:

    “slaughtering civilians is never acceptable”
    — agreed.

    Most soldiers are just civilians unlucky enough to be drafted or manipulated into joining in support of some ideological cause dreamed up by elitists who use the soldier pawns as disposable cannon fodder. All those men slaughtered in the American Civil War and on all sides during WWI deserved to live more than those elitists who ran or rather ruled their countries. The more the world changes the more it stays the same.

  12. avatar Fug says:

    The Muslim Brotherhood was threatening Christians, Shiites, Ethiopians, Syrians and they had already destroyed Libya… all with Obama’s support. They still have Obomber’s support in case you haven’t noticed. Not only that, but the MB had conducted a handful of paramilitary operations in the Sinai over the last couple weeks. I do not doubt they were armed themselves nor that they brought this reaction down upon their own heads.

  13. avatar Ralph says:

    slaughtering civilians is never acceptable.

    I can’t argue with that. But Islamists killing Islamists is a daily occurrence. And frankly, I don’t care.

    1. avatar NCG says:

      Ralph, there’s a bit more to it than that, and you are well-read enough to know it. Your callous comment does you no credit.

      1. avatar Pat says:

        Generally speaking, of course. Islam is a religious system based on violent expansion (if literally interpreted and followed).

      2. avatar Anmut says:

        Ralph is correct – let them all burn. The day after 9/11 the mountains of Afghanistan should have been turned into a smoldering, glass-bottomed, radioactive crater.

  14. avatar tdiinva says:

    You seem to have a problem differentiating between good and bad. Would you have taken issue with the Reichswehr shooting a bunch of unarmed SA troppers in the summer of 1933 to dispose Hitler? Not all “unarmed civilian” are created equal.

    1. avatar Michael B. says:

      +1

  15. avatar C says:

    What is the first rule of arms trafficking?
    “Uh… Don’t sell to both sides?”
    Shit, no! Don’t get CAUGHT selling to both sides!

    1. avatar Fug says:

      Obama does not support this coup. Obama is humiliated, he has single handedly lost one of America’s greatest strategic allies.

      1. avatar Jean Paul says:

        Um, WHAT? No—-Obama supported the removal of Mubarak, who was one of the US’ best allies. He caused this. He just didn’t think the Egyptian military and half the people would resist Islamicization of Egypt.

        If Obama cared about retaining Egypt as an ally, he would have backed Mubarak. That would have been the best for us and our allies in the region. But he supported(both publically and with covert CIA support) the anti-Mubarak forces. Did the same in Libya(a country which enjoyed a high standard of living and more freedom than Saudi). Quadaffi had been reduced to a non-entity on the world stage. He was no threat. Syria? Assad is an Alawite—a band of Islamic mytics. They’re not Wahabbists. They’re relatively moderate—and Syria is still no worse than Saudi Arabia, our “great ally”.

        Obama has an agenda. It’s obvious. Why else would he support the removal of those leaders when he knows their replacements will be radical Islamists?

    2. avatar ST says:

      I thought the First Rule of Arms Dealing was not to get shot with your own product.

      1. avatar C says:

        well, if you get caught, you’ll definitely be shot with your own product. So, chicken or egg.

  16. avatar SpeleoFool says:

    Wow, lots of hate in the comments. I work with a Muslim who was just in Cairo last week visiting family. He’s a super nice guy and a brilliant engineer.

    It’s kind of fascinating to me, and a little sad, to read all the hateful generalizations that mirror the easy narratives in the news. Especially when I know that these comments are coming from people used to being on the receiving end of hateful generalizations and easy narratives when the topic is firearms.

    1. avatar NCG says:

      Yep. I think people who choose to be informed and political about their issues owe it to themselves and others to be informed and political in general. The vast majority of people ignore politics, ignore the news, stick their fingers in their ears and say “nah, nah, nah…” Meanwhile, the world burns.

    2. avatar Pat says:

      The pigs burned dozens of Christian churches. They want sharia law over the entire planet, and will use the false prophets ‘sword god’ as an excuse to do it. Hundreds of millions in islam silently (and not so silently) wish this to happen.

      1. avatar NCG says:

        Far-RIght Islamophobia, checking in. Hey, it’s the treatment I get as the “token lefty.”

        1. avatar tdiinva says:

          There is a teachable moment here for you. You “far left extremists” seem to have a hard on for Islamic radicalism despite the fact that they oppose everything you stand for except maybe killing Christians and Jews. While you consider people who oppose gay marriage guilty of a hate crime you side with those who murder gay people just for fun, You guys (and gals) have a social hierarchy that the South African apartheid regime would envy.

          Muslims > Gays > Blacks > Hispanics > Asian/Caucasian.

          The Martin-Zimmerman confrontation is a good example of this hierarchy.

          If Zimmerman were a Muslim you have said not guilty.
          If Zimmerman were gay you said not guilty
          if Zimmerman were black you wouldn’t care
          But Zimmerman was Hispanic so you made up a new racial classification called white Hispanic so you could call him a murderer.
          Had Martin been Caucasian or Asian you would have said not guilty.

        2. avatar Jerry says:

          Pat is correct in one aspect, Christians have been under increased attack since Morsi was ousted. Pretty sure Muslims are responsible.

        3. avatar SpeleoFool says:

          There’s a teachable moment here, but a collective failure to recognize it.

          The lesson of the day is: this is bad. And so is this.

          There’s hardly a comment on this blog entry that doesn’t label someone as a member of one group or another, assign beliefs or guilt based on that group association, then use those assumptions to justify physical or verbal attacks on the person or people who are “OTHER.”

          Homework for today’s lesson is to contemplate the difference between opinion and groupspeak; are the groups with which you personally identify based on your own sense of community or were defined for you by someone else? To what extent do your group identities influence your personal opinions?

          Extra credit: read this post again without assuming that I intend to condescend, accuse or attack. 🙂

          My personal policy is to take the Official Version under advisement, perhaps as a place from which to begin a conversation, but also to try not to get too opinionated about things with which I don’t have firsthand experience. I’ve never spoken with a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. I haven’t been to Egypt. As I mentioned earlier, I do work with someone who has family in Cairo and was just there this past weekend; it was pretty enlightening to talk to him about current events.

        4. avatar tdiinva says:

          You might want to take a moment to educate yourself on the Muslim Brotherhood. It was founded by Hassan Al-Banna a man influenced by many ideas. One the sources inspiring Al Banna was book written by the German politician A. Hitler by the title of Mein Kampf. Al-Banna was “for Hitler before he was Chancellor.” Perhaps the Egyptian Army is doing to the MBs Storm troopers what the Reichswehr failed to do to Hitler’s thugs. Next you will be telling me that the not all the SA were bad people.

        5. avatar SpeleoFool says:

          No, next I’ll just point out Godwin’s_law. Yes, I understand how you got there. But you still went there.

          The only remaining salient point to make before I let my end of this conversation die is that all of the conversations with my coworkers over the past few months have followed very American themes: dictatorships = bad, elections are better, the military deposing a sitting president is not an encouraging development for democracy, but then an elected president who grants himself unchecked power isn’t exactly any better, and being caught in the middle of all that sucks. None of that ought to be too controversial or difficult to relate with, if you can accept that not every person in Cairo fits into the neat little buckets defined by a black & white narrative.

          I don’t suppose it matters much to point out that nothing I’ve said so far constitutes taking sides or excusing bad behavior on the part of any protesters who engaged in as much. But, if it makes you feel better, feel free to continue to speculate about my evilness, wrongness and naive refusal to categorize and demonize people by groups. I’ve got better things to think about.

          Have a good weekend. 🙂

        6. avatar tdiinva says:

          You are misusing Godwin’s Law. It doesn’t apply when the subject of the argument is an actual Nazi or Nazi sympathizer. The Muslim Brotherhood was inspired by the Adolph Hitler and supported him during the Second World War. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a member of the Brotherhood, broadcast Nazi propaganda to the Middle East during the war and helped recruit Muslim SS units in the Balkans. Before pontificating on Godwin’s :Laws perhaps should educate yourself in a little history.

          Here is a photograph of Hamas, the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, rendering their salute. Does it look familiar to you?

          http://ajewinjerusalem.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/hezbollahnazisalute.jpg

        7. avatar Pat says:

          NCG, you will get us all killed. What I stated is simply fact. You libtards (democrats) use moral equivalency (islam equals Christianity) to your detriment and our mutual demise.
          Liberalism is a mental disorder.

        8. avatar NCG says:

          I will align myself with SpeleoFool. I don’t accept factionalism as an excuse for violence. I don’t like the Muslim Brotherhood, or any conservative theological organization which seeks political power, but they did win a relatively free and fair election. I decry the anit-Christian violence in Egypt as much as anyone, though I would argue that U.S. intervention helps fuel the anit-Christian sentiment. However, by a lot of the reasoning here, every Catholic was responsible for the terrorist actions of the IRA, and Thatcher would have been totally justified in nuking Boston. Also, the Egyptian military has killed hundreds of protestors (not peaceful, maybe, but not armed, either) in the last few days. I’m not picking a side in Egypt (well, I would pick secular leftists, but they are a minority, and are largely leaving to use their educations elsewhere), but I don’t approve of the State violence, especially given that the police and the military are likely trying to provoke more violence.

          As for the idea that all Muslims are trying to destroy “us,” or that there could possibly be Sharia Law in Europe or the U.S. is patently absurd (never mind that a lot of Muslims don’t want Sharia Law, any more than most Christians want strict Biblical Law, like where your kill your kid if he mouths off).

          Finally, if Islam is warring against us, we are winning. Consider the body count since 9/11 (or before, for that matter). Consider the regular drone strikes killing God knows how many innocent people. But of course, they “Hate us for our freedom.”

        9. avatar NCG says:

          tdiinva, I will quote your entire post:

          “There is a teachable moment here for you. You “far left extremists” seem to have a hard on for Islamic radicalism despite the fact that they oppose everything you stand for except maybe killing Christians and Jews. While you consider people who oppose gay marriage guilty of a hate crime you side with those who murder gay people just for fun, You guys (and gals) have a social hierarchy that the South African apartheid regime would envy.

          Muslims > Gays > Blacks > Hispanics > Asian/Caucasian.

          The Martin-Zimmerman confrontation is a good example of this hierarchy.

          If Zimmerman were a Muslim you have said not guilty.
          If Zimmerman were gay you said not guilty
          if Zimmerman were black you wouldn’t care
          But Zimmerman was Hispanic so you made up a new racial classification called white Hispanic so you could call him a murderer.
          Had Martin been Caucasian or Asian you would have said not guilty.”

          If I had put that many words in your mouth, I would be absolutely crucified here (I’ve been rightly called out for far lesser rhetorical misdeeds). Your post is clearly directed at me personally, and you attribute a vast raft of beliefs to me which have no basis in reality. If you want to argue with me, I’m happy to have a civil debate about most any issue, but dredging up a bunch of fictional beliefs and attributing them to me is just weak, and reflects poorly on you. By all means, use my own words against me, but I will not be your straw man.

        10. avatar Pat says:

          Every Catholic responsible for IRA bombings? The Islamist problem is tens of thousands of times larger than the IRA deal (at its height). Thatcher nuking Boston? SERIOUS drugs your on. You are engaging in ghastly moral and proportional equivalency in the name of some strange secular anger at religion in general (and Christianity) in particular. Islamism is very real, and its tens (if not hundreds) of millions strong.

  17. avatar Mark N. says:

    There are any number of videos starting to appear showing armed civilians firing on the army with AKs, police stations being attacked and the officers being lynched, and so on and so forth. The Muslim Brotherhood is definitely NOT disarmed, and circumstances suggest may be intentionally triggering the violence for their own political ends.

    A disarmed public? Nonsense, Robert, that part of the world is awash with weapons.

    Morsi was technically democratically elected–but remember that the secular parties boycotted the election because of the nonsense the MB pulled in drafting the Constitution. And he was supposedly a moderate, but either he was not what he said he was or he succumbed to the pressure from the radical elements of his own party demanding jihad against Israel (and backing the Sinai Desert attacks on Israel and Egyptian army posts) and Sharia. And it was quite clear that Morsi was manipulating the constitution to gather ever greater power in his own hands, threatening the hegemony of the military. The military is secular, and will not accept a theocratic dictatorship.

    Obama accepted Morsi because he at least appeared to be the product of a democratic process. But as many have commented, and it is becoming ever more apparent, the Islamic fundamentalists are anti-democratic, believing that their is the way, the only way, and that all others are sinners and heretics. This is why the military acted as it did, why the MB was outlawed for many years, why the MBs offshoots include Al Qaeda chieftain Zawahiri, and why the conflagration now engulfing the middle east will engulf Egypt as well, sad to say.

  18. avatar Adam says:

    “The military is secular, and will not accept a theocratic dictatorship.”

    This is the same situation that existed in Kemalist Turkey, until the Gulenists emasculated the military. And that was a good thing. A ‘democracy’ with a military that has a reset button is not a democracy at all. This is why, for example, the U.S. constitution makes it absolutely clear that the democratically elected CIVILIAN President is the Commander in Chief–no ifs, ands, or buts (remember Truman showing MacArthur the door?). Even with her limited reserve powers, our Queen is subject to the will of Parliament. We may want to hold our noses, but we should support Morsi’s supporters in this, as there is a risk that we may find ourselves in a similar position sometime in the future.

    1. avatar Jerry says:

      And when that elected leader grants himself the powers of a dictator? What then? Still no reset button? Ever heard the term one person, one vote, one time?

  19. avatar Chuck Pelto says:

    TO: Robert Farago
    RE: Muslim Brotherhood ‘Disarmed’?

    Tell all of US how a terrorist organization is ‘disarmed’?

    Seriously, the ties between the Muslim Brotherhood and the armed assault in Benghazi are just too ‘interesting’ to ignore. Let alone how Obama has been arming them via the CIA’s reputed operations in Libya.

    As I see it, these ‘unarmed’ sit-ins are a publicity stunt. An effort to turn public and international opinion against the current Egyptian government in favor of the Muslim Brotherhood.

    I’m not buying it.

    Regards,

    Chuck(le)
    [The Truth will out…..]

  20. avatar Pat says:

    Pigs burned dozens of Christian churches. F them ALL. Almost 50 police were killed. Muslim Brotherhood is brotherhood of death cult. Fat chance of peace in near future.

  21. avatar Skyler says:

    Slaughtering civilians is always wrong?

    Unless you have a murderous, oppressive, ideological enemy that cuts arms off children for drinking coca cola.

    Or when you fire bomb Dresden, or nuke Nagasaki.

    It is civilians who ultimately control what government is in power. If the people are isolated from the consequences of their choice of oppressive government, then what incentive do they have to fight that government?

    1. avatar Chris Mallory says:

      Dresden and Nagasaki were war crimes and the men who ordered them should have been hanged.

      1. avatar Chuck Pelto says:

        Dresden, yes. Nagasaki, no.

        Or would YOU rather storm the shores of Honsho?

        1. avatar JaredFromTampa says:

          +1

        2. avatar Jerry says:

          Mr. Mallory would not have been required to storm anything, so no sweat off his back.

        3. avatar Out_Fang_Thief says:

          Please don’t exercise presentism as a form of honest judgement.
          Not only does it distort history, it purposely removes all context.
          Dresden bad, Nagasaki good? That’s presentism running amok.
          Presentism is the multi-culti hammer of today’s PC liberal crowd.

      2. avatar Pat says:

        The USA only had two bombs, the ones that were used, thank God (over 1 billion each in todays dollars) and would not have had another for months. Hundreds of thousands of our boys were saved (and millions of Japanese) because of the scrapping of the invasion of Japan (which they would have fought to the death trying to repel). They DID NOT surrender TEN DAYS after the bombings (after the soviets declared war and attacked) and deadlocked on a vote by their council. Only after their emperor agreed to our terms did the war end.
        You libtards (democrats) have been brainwashed by our liberal school system to hate your country.
        Wise up.

  22. avatar Tommy Knocker says:

    Two points. First the latest video clearly shows these peace loving pro-Morsi protestors armed to the teeth and firing full auto weapons at the Army.

    Second, let it serve as a lesson to those here who believe they could stand against the power of the state. It just don’t work that way. Delusional.

    1. avatar Chuck Pelto says:

      Oh…..I think there are many of US who could stand against state tyranny.

      Indeed, I believe many of the men and women who took the same oath many of US did years ago would join US, bringing their knowledge, their weapons and their combat vehicles with them.

      And likely whole formations would as well.

      1. avatar Chuck Pelto says:

        Sorry about the double post. This system had a brain-fart and it looked like it had not posted.

        Besides, I prefer the modified one below…..

    2. avatar Chuck Pelto says:

      Oh…..I think there are many of US who could stand against state tyranny.

      Indeed, I believe many of the men and women who took the same oath many of US did years ago would join US, bringing their knowledge, their weapons and their combat vehicles with them.

      And likely whole formations would as well.

      This is especially true amongst the National Guard formations. Or do you REALLY think they would fire on their friends and neighbors?

    3. avatar Pat says:

      It is probably only beginning, Tommy. There is a difference between a US citizen and what we fight for, and the muslim brotherhood.

  23. avatar Chris Mallory says:

    Ah, so nice to see that the NeoCon “There is a Muslim under the bed” meme is as strong as the NeoNazi “There is a Jew under the bed” meme.

    Nothing that happens in the Middle East is any business of the United States. We need to end all immigration from that pit of the world. We need to end all aid to EVERY nation. It is time to put America first and let the Middle East deal with it’s own problems.

    1. avatar Christian says:

      I agree, we should pull out of the ME and shut down all immigration and tap our own energy reserves, using the extra money to fortify our borders.

      I take issue with your earlier statement though. There IS a Muslim under the bed. Not our bed at the moment, but certainly for most of Europe. Whereas the Judeo-Christian ethic has managed to tolerate Athiests and humanist/progressives for the last, oh, five centuries or so, Islam has never and will never tolerate anything less than Sharia law, which is mandatory for all citizens. They also ascribe to the laws of zhimmitude – all people are equal, but Muslims are more equal than others. Makes the Jim Crow laws of the south look benevolent. Look up Sharia law, please. If you’re not a Muslim male, life kinda sucks for you. Look into the islamization of England. Would you be willing to live under Sharia law?

    2. avatar Pat says:

      Its muslims who are killing everybody, Chris. The analogy only works if during WW2, Jews were looking under the bed for Nazis. See how that makes sense while your statement did not.

  24. avatar Gs650g says:

    No need to worry. Our Nobel Laureate will solve this with Kerry’s help.

  25. avatar AJ says:

    Someone remind me why we are still sending money to this country?

  26. avatar JT says:

    Disarmed populace you say? Want to know why the military is shooting into crowds? Because of people like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK3Akd8RFIU

  27. avatar Jean Paul says:

    I really expect better from TTAG than a parroting of the propaganda the MSM puts out. The Egyptian government is battling a group which wants nothing less than the establishment of an Islamic state.

    The “protestors” have been murdering civilians, burning Coptic Christian churches, and pillaging museums of irreplaceable antiquities. They are savages whose goal is the very destruction of Modern Egypt. These same people have spoken of a desire to cleanse Egypt of all which is not Islamic—-including the Valley of the Kings! No pyramids, no Sphinx, nothing. They want it all gone.

    The Egyptian military are the good guys in this case.

    1. avatar Pat says:

      I agree with you, though, the Egyptian leaders can hardly be called good (and that’s the problem). This is a catch 22 nightmare with little chance of a good outcome.

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