courtesy gunssavelife.com

Accessory maker Troy Industries has had quite the week PR-wise. First they announced (since removed from their web site) the hiring of former Chicago police commissioner Jody Weis by their subsidiary, Troy Asymmetric. Yes, Troy intended to add an anti-RKBA Daly administration lackey who lost the confidence of his own department to their staff as an instructor. As John Boch at gunssavelife.com reports, after first claiming that Troy Asymmetric was a separate company, Troy dropped that ruse and tossed the newly-hired Mr. Weis under the bus . . .

Troy Industries is a strong supporter of the Second Amendment. In recent months, we have been more vocal about our beliefs, choosing to align ourselves with companies and individuals who are like-minded.

In response to the reaction of our customer base, Jody Weis will not be joining the Troy Asymmetric cadre of instructors.

We value the thoughts and concerns of our loyal customers. Troy Industries and its affiliated companies are strong supporters of the Second Amendment and will continue to promote this right through our products, statements, actions and affiliations.

Thank you

Allyson Ranelli
Troy Industries, Inc
151A Capital Dr
West Springfield, MA 01089
413-788-4288 x116 Office
413-788-4610 Fax
aranelli@troyind.com

www.troyind.com

But the attention drawn by Weis’s abortive hiring drew scrutiny to Troy Asymmetric that’s turned up another eyebrow-raising staffer. In the grand tradition of HS Precision’s hiring of Ruby Ridge sniper Lon Horiuchi as a spokesman, it turns out Troy Asymmetric had pretty much the same idea. The following was published at gunssavelife.com and is reprinted here with permission:

Troy Industries really stepped hip deep in the kimchee with their hiring of Jody Weis as an instructor in their training division, Troy Assymetric.

Today, a day after Guns Save Life shared their new hire announcement of Weis with gun owners throughout the nation, Troy now claims Weis won’t be joining them after all.

Irrespective of their nuanced announcement – we can’t believe they would trumpet their excitement about bringing Jody Weis on board as an instructor if it wasn’t a done deal – we’re glad he’s gone and pleased we had a hand in wrecking his new job in the private sector.

One of our regular readers did some digging of his own and did a little research on another new member (at least until tomorrow?) of the Troy Assymetric staff.  Dale R. Monroe.

Yeah, that name didn’t sound familiar to us right away, but it did to our reader Kevin.

We are pleased to announce the appointment of Dale Monroe to our Troy Asymmetric Cadre of Instructors.  Dale brings nearly three decades of experience in the areas of SWAT, Incident Response, Tactical Training and Investigation to Troy.

Having previously served as the Tactical Commander/SWAT Senior Team Leader in the Los Angeles FBI Bureau, Dale also gleaned experience from his time in the Phoenix, Arizona and Quantico, Virginia Offices.  Highlights of his tenure include his oversight of the FBI’s Crisis Response/Tactical participation in two National level WMD exercises and coordinating their associated multi-million dollar budgets, and assisting in security coordination efforts for the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympic Games.  Perhaps most notably, Dale served as a Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) Tactical Operator on the nation’s only federal civilian counter-terrorism response team.

He holds degrees from both Hillsdale College and the University of Arizona as well as a certificate from the Naval Aviation Flight Training School in Pensacola, Florida.  In addition, Mr. Monroe served in the United States Marine Corps where he was deployed in two Western Pacific Tours.

To contact Dale or our other world-class instructors, call 413-788-4213 or use our contact form found here.

His bio at Troy was impressive but left out one huge aspect of Monroe’s career. In reality, perhaps most notably Dale Monroe was Lon Horiuchi’s partner at Ruby Ridge. Remember Ruby Ridge?

FBI snipers Lon Horiuchi and Dale Monroe tried to kill these men. Judge, jury and executioner. And Horiuchi just “accidentally” murdered Vicky Weaver. And Dale Monroe said he was ready to take that same shot but Horiuchi fired first. What a couple of shining examples of courage and bravery, right?  Shooting down a woman armed with nothing but an infant in her arms.

NOT!

Horiuchi and Monroe tried to kill two men who were ultimately acquitted of wrongdoing, except for some minor charges against Randy Weaver. What happened to Horiuchi? A bunch of nothing, sadly. He should have met a rope the next morning, or life in prison, but he was from the anointed class of elites. Randy Weaver eventually won a $3 million judgement against the government but that won’t bring back his wife.

Ruby Ridge Snipers Defend Their Actions in Front of Senate Panel

(LA Times via The Tech – Sept. 15, 1995) – FBI snipers Thursday defended their actions at the 1992 Ruby Ridge siege where a white separatist’s wife was killed, contending that danger to an FBI observation helicopter from armed men outside the separatist’s cabin justified opening fire.

But skeptical senators questioned whether permissive shoot-to-kill orders and exaggerated information about the threat of Randy Weaver led to an overreaction.

Dale R. Monroe, the partner of FBI hostage rescue team leader Lon Horiuchi – who fired the fatal shot – said he was preparing to fire but didn’t only because Horiuchi fired first.

Horiuchi invoked his Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination Tuesday after the Senate Judiciary subcommittee on terrorism refused to give him limited immunity from prosecution.

Lon Horiuchi executed Randy Weaver’s wife as she held a newborn baby during the Ruby Ridge siege.  And Dale Monroe was right there by his side ready to take that same shot. In a battle of scumbags, I’m not sure which is worse, Jody Weis or Dale Monroe. What is it with Troy Industries of late? Is that Massachusetts water getting to them, or what?

In any event, it’s up to gun owners to make an informed decision if they want to do business with a company that hired Horiuchi’s partner from Ruby Ridge.  A partner that said he would have taken that same shot except Horiuchi fired first.

UPDATE

Hot off the presses from the Troy Industries Facebook page.

We thank everyone for their opinions on Dale Monroe. We are still reviewing Mr. Monroe’s relationship with Troy Asymmetric and are looking in to the claims that are being made online.

We have reviewed the 1995 Ruby Ridge Congressional testimony and found at 1:42:35 of the taping, it is indeed Ed Wenger who says he would have shot, had Special Agent Horiuchi not shot first. http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/67153-1

The attribution of the statement on gunssavelife.com to Mr. Monroe is incorrect. After reviewing the testimony, we are confident that you, too, will find that it is indeed Wenger that made the statement, not Monroe.

Monroe was an FBI HRT member assigned a mission which turned tragic. We are saddened by the events at Ruby Ridge and recognize the significance of the tragedy. If you’ve never worn a uniform, you might not understand why Monroe was in the situation he was in, but if you have worn a uniform, you know how it is to follow orders in a fluid situation.

We’re weighing a difficult decision with many facets and things to consider. One thing we know for sure: Mr. Monroe did not state that he would have fired first. We do hope you will take the time to review all of the available materials on Ruby Ridge and Dale Monroe, and welcome your comments, as they will most certainly help us to reach a final, informed decision.

We stand by our initial report as it cited a report initially published by the LA Times and picked up on the wire services by the MIT student newspaper, The Tech.

Here’s a .pdf of the hard-copy version.

UPDATE #2

At 1:03:30 in the video at the link, Dale Monroe believes both shots were justified.

At 2:16:50 in the video, Dale Monroe says he would have taken the shot if he would had the ability to take an accurate shot at the time.

Mr. Troy, throughout this entire mess, you folks have been hiding and obfuscating.  You deserve kudos for canning Mr. Weis in a timely manner, although your initial statement was less than clear.

Then the issue of Mr. Monroe popped up and you deleted his page from your website, then the entire instructor roster (who else are you hiding on the payroll over at Troy Assymetric?).  You wait until the end of business then release a link to this video you claim exonerates your man.

“Just following orders” is no excuse, Mr. Troy Industries. Lon Horiuchi killed that woman holding a baby. In cold blood. Your employee Dale Monroe said he would have taken the same shot and that it was justified. You asked for input. Here it is: Dump Monroe.

135 Responses to What The Hell’s The Problem With Troy Industries?

    • It seems that any candidate that comes from a metro department, east west, ir central deserves scutiuny. So far it seems that Troy have tapped into two ir three men that we present during unlawfully commanded operations where Potter re-wrote the ROE that led to the unneeded death of Mrs. Weaver the killing of Sammy wounding of Harris and wounding of Randy Weaver as well. The case went sour in a major way. OK give and forget unless they expose anti-gun idea, like Weis. Give ’em a chance. Get a leture about what went wrong at Ruby Ridge – what did we learn – and learn from the mistakes. With Weis dump his ass since he’s a deep rooted anti-gunner.

  1. You know, if we are in the business of ruining people’s careers because of a tactical/combat decision, there are a whole lot of veterans on this list too. But we can’t do that to them, no. They’re the troops!

    This is ridiculous. I understand Weiss. No one from Chicago PD leadership should work for the gun industry.

    But a guy who was in a bad shoot almost 20 years ago, under orders, we have to ruin his career in a career field that has defined him?How are we ever going to be seen as the rational side in the debate on guns if we engage in petty crap like this?

    • Yes. There is no excuse for the murder of innocents. Intent follows the bullet. When lead is flying everywhere, I can see an honest mistake. A sniper has no such excuse.

      • I see what user3369 is saying, but I have to side with pwrserge on this one.

        If we don’t have integrity and police our own, holding them responsible for their decisions and actions, then we have undermine our own position.

        I don’t know if he said he would “take the shot” or not (I haven’t looked into it), but the fact that he didn’t stand up and call other people out, including his partner? That’s inexcusable.

        If you forget why you are serving, you shouldn’t be serving. Mil or LEO.

        • When the guy is wrong you – stop him, arrest him, or shoot him. That’s why you get the bign bucks. Grow a pair if necessary.

          UnConstitutional is UnConitiutional matters not who/when/where/why. Same for right and wrong.

        • user3369, in .mil, it ain’t about the guy next you if he wants to engage in genocide, is it?

          So why does an unlawful shoot get a pass for LEOs?

          I’m all about brothers-in-arms too, but there are some lines that can’t be crossed. PERIOD.

        • That’s the difference between cops and mil. First, most mil don’t make anything like big bucks. Second, in the military you are often operating in a much grayer area. There are some things that are clearly wrong, and some orders that should never be obeyed, but if your unit is surronded, outnumbered and under fire, it’s not the time for a seminar on the finer points of the 4th protocols to the Geneva Conventions. If you start arresting each other instead of fighting the enemy, you could all end with your heads on Taliba spikes.

      • ABSOLUTELY. Need I remind that we are talking about the partner of a man who shot an unarmed mother cradling an INFANT? WTF is THAT? He was obviously 100% OK if he missed and shot the infant instead/as well!

        And in the name of WHAT, exactly? One sawed-off shotgun. Which deserves to be legal, obviously.

      • The man who put a bullet in her eye as she was holding a baby should be dead.
        All over a sawed off shotgun frame job.
        ATF MUST be disbanded.

    • He made a bad shot that killed someone innocence, justified it and appears to continue to do so. Yes you don’t get to teach people after that. I understand that mistakes happen and when they happen you need to find something else to do.

    • The government sure in the hell doesn’t mind ruining a citizen’s life for a decision made in a tactical/combat situation.
      Why should we not hold the government employees to the same standard.
      I get tired of this “Monday Morning Quarterbacking” whine by government thugs. They took the action, they should damn well face the consequences for it.
      The “under orders” whine doesn’t hold water either. We hanged a whole lot of Germans and Japanese for “following orders”.

      • If we are going to apply the same standard to our own troops, we would have a LOT of soldiers in prison. You can’t have it both ways. you either accept civilian casualties as the price of armed conflict, or you don’t.

        • ^ What pwrserge said. There is a difference between what is considered acceptable in a combat situation in the military, and what is acceptable from police and law enforcement. There is a reason why we don’t use the Marines to hand out speeding tickets.

        • Oh my. We should accept the drone-killing of wedding parties of a couple dozen, of which one “might” be a “terrorist” (def: a freedom fighter who’s on the other side), because those are “acceptable casualties of war”?

          Somebody stop the world. This bizarrely unlike the America I grew up in.

        • Not true. It’s an unfortunate fact that one of the greatest casualties of war are civilians caught in the middle. But there is a big difference between the unintended deaths caused in war and the deliberate targeting of civilians. BTW, those in the military who were caught murdering civilians stood trial for their crimes. More than one is in prison at this moment. How about the same treatment for LEOs?

        • Ruin a career? His career was ruined the moment Mrs. Weaver was executed while holding an infant. The fact that nothing happened to the executioners is ridiculous.

        • Ruining someone’s career? That seems like a petty consequence for someone who practically seems eager to snipe an unarmed woman in cold blood as she carries a baby.

          If people follow the corrupt and fear no consequence for their actions then do you think they will stop following the corrupt?

        • Claiming that a blog is “ruining” this murderer’s career is like claiming that a security camera ruined the life of a mugger. (As if he would otherwise be innocent if it weren’t for getting caught.)

          The individual makes their own decision that’s ultimately connected to their fate. In this case, that fate may well be ruin.

        • Would informing on a mobster be considered “ruining his career”?

          Aside from the fact that it wouldn’t, I mean….

        • If everybody’s actions at Ruby Ridge, inc Weaver’s, ATF, and FBI, were fully investigated, publicly, and guilty parties brought to justice, you’d be right that we should drop it here. But the truth is that a woman’s life was taken and the whole issue swept under the rug like it never happened. And that after a 14-year-old boy was shot in the back. I would not be surprised to find that the shooters did not know the situation other than that their supervisors directed them to shoot an unarmed woman in the face. But if that was the case, that supervisor should STILL be in prison. NOBODY was even charged, even after the gubt was hit with a $3mil judgement. That is a coverup, illegal shit galore, and should result in everyone involved being unable to get a job sweeping floors until the guilty party is convicted and in prison.

          I will buy nothing from Troy until they’re rid of this guy.

    • User3369, I dont know about law enforcement but in my background it is perfectly acceptable to question orders that wrongfully endanger a life. I would say orders to harm an innocent fall in thoat category. Screw his career, even if it was a long time ago.

      • A higher standard absolutely applies in a civilian occupation. Overseas, we balked at the idea of “civilians”. 8 year olds packed ammo, shot at us with AKs, and armed IEDs. Women carried ammo onto the battlefield. It is apples and oranges here. I gave no shits about civilian casualties there. Here, I do. But I also believe that individual soldiers acting under orders are not responsible for carrying them out. If they act outside orders, that is different. But refusing to refuse an order does not make one a criminal. It means he did his job.

        This is a guy whose entire career has been built on the gun, he is probably very much in line with the rest of our ideals. I won’t persecute him for doing his job.

        • “But refusing to refuse an order does not make one a criminal.”

          Sorry, but that’s not quite right, as was established at Nuremberg. It has to be an order that it way out there – we’re not talking a fine judgment call – but there are some order that should never be obeyed. ” I vast just vollowing orderz” does not work in all cases. If a superior officer ordered you to shoot a prisoner in cold blood would you simply do it? I hope not, because you and that officer would both be getting courts martial.

        • “But I also believe that individual soldiers acting under orders are not responsible for carrying them out. If they act outside orders, that is different. But refusing to refuse an order does not make one a criminal. It means he did his job.”

          “Just following orders” has not been a valid excuse since August 8, 1945.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Charter

          And an armed person shooting at you or trying to blow you up is an enemy combatant, not a civilian. If you truly “don’t give a shit about civilian casualties” I hope you’re out of any combat MOS/AFSC, because you’ll only make everyone else’s jobs harder.

        • It is painfully obvious that you are NOT a military prior service person. You duty to challenge orders is supreme. Also, the ATF and FBI thought killing Vicky Weaver would despirit the Weavers and cause them to give up. The next morning, the ATF was announcing over the loudspeakers that they were having pancakes for breakfast and they were asking Vicky’s children what their mother was making for them.
          3369, you are nuts and some Troy public relations person or, you are the POS Monroe himself. The people that the FBI HRT hire are rejects from police and Sheriff departments. The knid of pathetic murderers that WANT to do these type of things and assuage their conscience because “I was following orders”, just like the Nazis at Treblinka and Auschwitz.

    • He hid behind is credentials to protect the “blue wall” ideals and that scumbag murder Horiuchi. He displayed he has zero respect for integrity, life, or liberty.

      When the judicial system ruins a life for something done 20 years ago they call it “justice”. This man protected a murder at the expense of the safety of ALL of us. Enough is enough with the notion that because you have a badge you are somehow exempt.

    • Big difference between soldiers who may make mistakes in the heat of battle, and cops who act like soldiers against citizens in the US. War is not peace, do not conflate the two.

    • user3369 – Ruby Ridge was in no way whatsoever even close to being a “combat” situation, and it should never be compared to what our troops in Iraq/Afghanistan encounter. To do so is disrespectful to true combat troops and shows a lack of understanding (bordering on downright stupidity) of what true combat conditions are like. BTW, every sniper has the power to take or not take a shot. The shooter took a bad shot, and the other guys supported a bad (and illegal) shoot (otherwise known as an execution).

    • There’s a wee bit of a difference between shooting someone in the heat of a firefight, and deliberately shooting at people who aren’t shooting, are not, in fact, presenting any immediate threat at all.

      If you can’t see that, please don’t ever carry a gun.

      Ever.

    • I’m sorry that you see accountability as “Petty”. So do all who see themselves as being “above such petty nonsense”. You truly do not grasp what the word Accountability means.

      http://www.gunssavelife.com/?p=8860

      Its all there. He said he would have taken the shot and stands by his involvement. Read and be educated.

  2. Well, there’s a company that lost my business for the foreseeable future. Good job Troy. Way to hire jack booted thugs that should be spending their time in orange suits turning big rocks in to little rocks.

    • Amen. If a company isn’t responsible enough to evaluate new hires and contrast them with the values of its customers, it should not be getting our business. Wearing a SWAT or FBI uniform doesn’t earn my unconditional respect. These guys are no different than the lobster backs.

      • They are considerably different from the lobsterbacks. The crew at Ruby Ridge grew up and were formed in a world far different to that in which the War of Independence was fought.

        They should have known far better about proper conduct and shooting the unarmed than would a conscript of Georgian England.

        Hell, I highly doubt that general Gage would’ve ordered or taken the shot.

  3. And you wonder why this type of thing is happening more and more the people that made those shots and now training new teams to do the same.

    • Indeed. After Dicks Sporting Goods hastily removed “black rifles” from their shelves in December of last year, I hand delivered a letter to the manager of my local store to forward to her board of directors explaining why I would no longer shop at Dicks. Among the reasons I listed was the way they abandoned their vendor, Troy Industries. I have not shopped at Dicks since. The concern I felt for Troy does not appear to have been reciprocated.

  4. No wonder try products are so expensive, they have to spend a ton of money on toilet paper for the giant a**holes they’ve hired.

  5. I don’t understand. On one hand there’s a story from the LA Times that could have easily gotten a detail wrong and whose sourcing there is no way to investigate at this point, and on the other hand there’s video tape of someone else saying what The Tech (and the LA Times story) attribute to Mr. Monroe. In the face of actual videotape evidence, how does the gunssavelife.com say, “We stand behind our initial report” just because the LA Times said it first? That defies rationality. That’s like me saying, “I know Bob robbed the Circle K because the LA Times told me so,” while there is actual video of John robbing the store. I don’t care how unimpeachable you think the LA Times to be, their reporting does not trump actual video of the event.

    • In light of the latest update to this story at gunssavelife, it seems that they are both correct and incorrect in the statements they made. I realize it’s splitting hairs, but accuracy in reporting is important, right? gunssavelife.com attributed the statement to Mr. Monroe that “he would have taken the shot, if Mr. Horiuchi had not shot first.” Video from the hearings shows that it was not Mr. Monroe that made that statement, it was Mr. Wenger. So in that assertion, they are incorrect.

      However, gunssavelife.com has also found two other points in the video where Mr. Monroe says both that he feels both shots were justified, and that he would have taken a shot if he’d had an accurate shot to take. So in the overarching theme of “Mr. Monroe was involved in bad juju,” gunssavelife.com has the basic storyline correct.

      Like I said, accuracy is important in reporting, and their initial report was false in fact, even if it was correct in character.

      • Matt:

        I think this whole “no, it was Wenger who said that” is just a red herring. Yes, Wenger said that at 1:42 or whatever.

        Monroe said the same thing at 2:xx.

        Just because Wenger said it at 1:42 doesn’t mean Troy is suddenly in the clear or that we – or the LA Times – got the story wrong. It simply means at 1:42 it was someone else talking.

        And heck, I haven’t watched the entire video. I’m almost afraid to, in the sense there will be even more damning testimony on the part of Mr. Monroe.

        They’ve got themselves a jack booted thug on their staff and I damn sure will never spend a dime with that company until and unless Monroe, and anyone else like him, are banished from that company.

        We’ll see how it plays out today.

        • John:

          Yeah, I totally understand where you’re coming from. My first comment was written prior to the second update, and my second comment (obviously) after it. I agree that your story was right in spirit and character, I’m just pedantic about details, and the original quote was incorrectly attributed.

  6. Sounds like Troy needs to hire a better person or company to do background checks of their employees before they make these announcements. Sounds like their executive team is not on the job.

  7. “We stand by our initial report as it cited a report initially published by the LA Times and picked up on the wire services by the MIT student newspaper, The Tech.”

    I’m no fan of anyone who was on the murdering team at Ruby Ridge, so I’m never going to buy a Troy product, to be sure.

    But your logic escapes me. Newspapers are wrong all the time, especially student newspapers. That’s not an argument I’d hang my hat on.

    • ” Newspapers are wrong all the time, especially student newspapers.”

      I humbly disagree. I’ve seen student newspapers get the basketball scores right, on occasion. 😉

  8. I bought an 300BLK upper a while back with a Troy handguard. This sickens me. I’m not going to throw away the rail, but they will never get my business now. Geeze, whats it up to now? CthanD, Dicks, anyone in New York Massachusetts or Conneticut, Armalite, and Magpul was a hairs breadth away until they took back their New York cutout for our betters.

  9. I don’t like the idea of giving the enemy any money, but being trained in their techniques so you can counter them may be useful.

  10. “…but if you have worn a uniform, you know how it is to follow orders in a fluid situation.”

    “I did not hate the Jews – I vas only following orders!”

  11. Ouch, hate to see a well-intentioned company that makes good products make a bad move like this, and the ever-hungry shark tank of Interweb tactical expert/critics live for this kind of thing. Bad combination.

  12. I would have to hear some words the the man himself. None of us were there or know what went on behind the scenes after the shooting, or exactly what they were being told before and during the shooting. I am not excusing what happened there and the man who took the shot should be held accountable, but this is not the man who took the shot. The pressure to tow the line and back up the stories of your fellow officers is huge and who knows what he was threatened with. I would hope troy would sit and have a talk with the man about this situation, if he still believes it was the right thing and he would have done it the same if he had a do-over then I would hope they would send him down the road.

    • The mere fact that he took the job shows that he is of low morals and suspect character. Government thugs should be shunned and ridiculed for as along as they live.

      • Which job, the one at troy or ruby ridge? They really dont get a say in where they go, they go where they are told. I am guessing that you have never done anything that the people here would ridicule you over. willing to bet we dig into the history of every person who has ever posted here and we could find more than enough stuff to use to make them look bad and destroy their lives. Unless you have talked to the man personally since the incident you have no idea what his current thoughts are. God forbid the guy makes a mistake and says the wrong thing, never to be forgiven. I hope we are all not held to that same high standard.

        • Chris is a cop hater. He’s saying that simply taking the FBI job shows evidence of Monroe’s low moral character. Move along, nothing to see here.

        • Mike, that is just wrong. This is not the military we’re talking about, the very LEAST say he had was “I QUIT!”.

  13. The problem at Troy Industries….simple, the owner Steve Troy (former MA state policeman).
    As a former MA lawman he’s used to LE being above and better than normal people.
    He’s also lawsuit / court happy; just ask A.R.M.S. and Samson.
    Vicking Industries would do well to separate from Troy Industries.
    Troy Industries makes a good product but it also comes with MA kind of baggage.

  14. POINT OF ORDER!!!!!!

    The woman with the baby was behind the door; “Out of sight”. In retrospect it was most horrible and most unfortunate.

    Lon Horiuchi was shooting at a man outside of the cabin and missed with the shot going through the door hitting the woman and baby who were “Out of sight”.

    Yes, Monroe would have taken the shot “at that time” because they were shooting at the man outside of the cabin, not the woman behind the door, who was “Out of Sight”.

    The statement “Lon Horiuchi executed Randy Weaver’s wife” is totally “un-called for” and deliberately inflammatory since the term “Executed” means deliberately killing a person who is in a position with no ability to prevent the kill. i.e.: tied up or otherwise incapacitated.

    Personally, I cannot fault either Horiuchi or Monroe for their actions during the firefight.

    I do fault their superiors for initiating the operation at Ruby Ridge as in retrospect, the information that we now know the supervisors had, “did not justify that level of operation”.

    On several occasions in Vietnam I saw a running Vietcong shooter shot with the bullet going through him and into a grass hut behind him. Later, further investigation found a person in that hut who was most likely killed by that bullet.

    Are you also going to crucify the marine that fired that shot? Not bloody likely!!!!

    Yes, that was war, but the un-intended consequences are the same. And yes, I would have taken that same shot “at that time” !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Question: where did you get your info that Vicki Weaver was behind the door and “out of sight”? Everything I’ve seen & read on the incident says she was holding the door open and was plainly visible. I also have difficulty believing an FBI HRT sniper “missed” his shot.

      • If the wiki on it is to be believed she was behind the door. But, the ‘firefight’ in which she was killed had fire only going one way. The shot was meant as a followup for Weaver (who was going to see his dead teenage son) when Horiuchi missed the first shot. All this over a illegal weapons charge. Read the wiki on Ruby Ridge and it’s all pretty damning of the gov’t actions.

        • Not all that trusting of wiki. What I think is most damning is that f**ktard’s after action sniper book drawing showed 2 heads plainly visible in the re-creation of the shooting. He knew she was there. This is mentioned over at the referenced lawdog post and in other non-wiki sources as well. Leads me to believe he didn’t miss his intended target.

        • Assassination should not be in the playbook for Weaver, either, even if it did go that way, they are STILL wrong, and someone should be in prison. What, 4 or 5 people shot, 3 dead, two alphabet agencies fired shots, a deputy dead, two citizens critically wounded, and no criminal trial whatsoever? YGBSM. It is CLEAR the gubt screwed the pooch in a major way, then hid the evidence. I believe the rendition in “Unintended Consequences” lacking proof of something else, which was Vickie in doorway, Randy giving up on life, wounded and going to see his dead son one more time before he died, a friend on the floor of the cabin, also critically wounded. No hint of a closed door, and I don’t care if it was. Did he think his rifle would not penetrate that door? If Weaver was in fact moving, waiting 3 or 4 seconds would provide a clear shot, but he did not care.

      • Read the hard copy PDF listed in the a MIT student newspaper, The Tech. listed above in the original Post. http://tech.mit.edu/V115/PDF/N41.pdf

        Bottom of 5th paragraph:
        “Weaver’s wife Vickie, standing behind a cabin door, was killed by a shot that Horiuchi has testified previously that he fired at one of the men running into the cabin”.

        Even the best shooter misses a running target from time to time. And the odds get worst in a firefight.

        • If your takeaway from the whole operation was it was an accident because she was behind a door then I think you’re missing the forest for the trees.

    • Ruby Ridge should have never happened. If there were justice in this world, all agents involved from top to bottom should have been thrown in a federal prison forever. You can try to chalk it up to “unintended consequences” but the simple fact is that this wasn’t a battlefield and the government response was a heaping pile of tyranny that should never have happened in the first place. You are comparing apples to oranges. To defend this as some standard business practice is just ludicrous.

    • She was in AN OPEN DOORWAY. Either you’re duller than a sack of wet mice, or you’re obfuscating through disinformation.

      WHICH IS IT?

    • This is a terrible argument. We as private civilians are constantly harped on that “every bullet has a lawyer tied to it” and to adjust your actions as such.
      Ignoring the fact that he was firing at a wounded, unarmed, fleeing man for a second…
      If I were to be involved in a defensive shooting, miss and kill an unintended target there is a specific word that the judicial system would use to describe it. Manslaughter. The agents involved are civilians, nothing more and nothing less. They should not be held to any standard of action different than you or I.

    • “Lon Horiuchi was shooting at a man outside of the cabin.”

      Okay. I’ll bite. WHO WAS THE ‘MAN’?

  15. Here’s a novel idea: Don’t like who they hire? Don’t purchase items/services from them. BOOM! Capitalism! Crazy…

  16. Their instructors list is pretty much a roster of cops from anti-gun cities. LA, Chicago, Boston, NY, FBI, ATF…

    These guys may or may not have experience, they may or may not be the right guys for the job. But I would certainly at least question where they stand on the 2A issues and expect some sort of statement of values. It raises the question, with so many qualified instructors who DON’t have those kinds of compromising backgrounds, why the consistent trend?

  17. And here I was ready to buy some Troy sights.
    I think I’ll wait for the Daniel Defense sights to become available now – not buying from a group that defends and EMPLOYS those who condone murder of women holding babies.

    • The woman and baby were Out of Sight behind the door. They were shooting at a man outside of the cabin. Monroe would have shot at the man “at that time”. I don’t see anything in their testimony where they said they would have shot at the woman and baby, “At that time”.

  18. HS Precision NEVER made things right over the Horiuchi incident. I have never bought one of their products since. I never will. Until Remington dumped them, i wouldn’t buy Remington either.

    Now that they supply Savage, I don’t buy Savage.

    And I won’t buy Troy anything when they have a statist assassin on the payroll. I have, from time to time, put up with untoward politics from gun companies. I will not, and will never, abide apologists for state sponsored murder.

  19. ***32×20***

    May take away is as I stated previously above:

    Personally, I cannot fault either Horiuchi or Monroe for their actions during the firefight.

    I do fault their superiors for initiating the operation at Ruby Ridge as in retrospect, the information that we now know the supervisors had, “did not justify that level of operation”.

    • There was no firefight. The only return fire in the whole ‘operation’ is when camo-clad agents startled the sons by shooting their dog. I agree they were given bad info but characterizing it as a ‘firefight’ is disingenuous. By all accounts it was an assassination of a US citizen.

  20. Just a thought, nutnfancy on youtube appears to be a huge fan of Troy industries and he has a sizeable following. Perhaps we should ask nutnfancy to speak out on this one.

  21. Definitely.

    I don’t support companies that hire murderers exempt from the law because they are better than normal citizens(government employees). Murderous scumbags that get no justice.

    From wikipedia:
    “ATF agent Byerly had come to regard Kumnick as just a “boastful show-off” and Weaver as even less involved. In June 1990, Byerly attempted to use the sawed-off shotgun charge as leverage to get Weaver to act as an informant for his investigation into the Aryan Nations.[10] When Weaver refused to become “a snitch,” the ATF filed the gun charges in June 1990, also claiming Weaver was a bank robber with criminal convictions (those claims were false: at that time Weaver had no criminal record and the subsequent Senate investigation found: “Weaver was not a suspect in any bank robberies.”[10]) Weaver denied the sawed-off weapons charge, claiming that the informant had purchased two legal shotguns from him and later shortened the guns.”

    I guess we have to choose our acquaintances well because the ATF my shoot our dog, our son, and our wife and leave us only with an infant baby girl. To this day I still get p!ssed off reading about WACO and RUBY RIDGE. The feds should have been criminally charged and yet ended up with paid vacations.

    A long time ago I met Weaver’s (hot) daughter at a gun show. I was just a young teen at that time and so was she. My father and I got the honor to shake weaver’s hand while I was there.

    • I didn’t have the opportunity to see the surviving daughter, but I do have an autographed copy of his book. Met him at the Indy gun show.

      Quiet man.

      Damn shame what they did to him.

      John

  22. Ruby Ridge was different than combat.

    They did not have to attack at Ruby Ridge, in combat you do. You also have to have the intelligence to recognize a bad “order”. Shooting an unarmed woman is criminal, she wasn’t shooting at the Marshals/FBI, etc.

    Like shit I’ll buy anthing from Troy Industries. Taking down the names of the instructors is the kind of crap Bush and Obama did/do.

  23. Ruby Ridge – I for one am glad Marshall Deegan got his….he’s the SOB who shot Weaver’s son and he paid for it with his worthless Boston born Marine Reserve Officer life.

  24. So TI hired one of the most monstrous MyaccaFrackers in the history of federal “law enforcement”. Wasn’t Horiuchi also at Waco? I seem to remember reading that.

    All right, I have four Troy mags. I’m thinking about going elsewhere from now on. What a horrendous disregard for public decency.

    • I also heard Horiuchi was at Waco, and left behind a large pile of fired brass. Curiously, neither I nor anyone else has any proof.

  25. I own a bunch of Troy stuff, and I mean a bunch but I got it all at 50% of MSRP.
    I’d never buy any of their stuff now or would have never paid full price for it.
    Compared to Daniel Defense products Troy’s stuff just feels cheap. Hell I like Samson products better than Troy Industries gear.

  26. Not buying troy ever again.
    Then again, it did take them 5 months to send me a battlemag. If that wasn’t the final nail, this sure as hell is.
    I SAID GOOD DAY, SIR!!

  27. I now feel like taking all of my troy industries stuff which I have thousands of $$ of and throwing it in my fire pit. Boycott these suckers because they are up to no good.

    • Feel free to throw it in my fire pit. Pay no attention to the fact that the fire isn’t lit.

      I mean, unless you’re not completely full of shit about burning all your Troy gear over this stupidity. You were serious, right?

  28. A lot of these guys are all to eager to squeeze the trigger. A woman with her baby, I thought it was wrong then and still do today.

  29. Put aside the argument that these two were or were not executioners….

    Why would any rifle company hire two people who are most famous for choking their shot when the time counts?

  30. All I am reading is a total rehash of Ruby Ridge and Troy being used as the scapegoat. You all are angry about how the US Govt handled the situation but you are making Troy, American (not outsourced) made products pay for something that happened twenty years ago??! I am willing to bet a third of you posting here were still in diapers and had NO clue it even happened. Give me a break!!

  31. As for Ruby Ridge and Waco they were pushed by Bill Clinton and Janet Reno to show the citizens of the U S A that you don’t go against the government and really live to tell about it,and if you do you are painted as a crazy,or are a domestic terrorist,whatever label they can use to suit their ends to look right.As for the sniper here he was following orders passed down by the higher ups,and yes he could have refused to follow those orders as criminal,because he took an oath to the constitution just like those in the military take.Be prepared and ready.Keep your powder dry.

  32. Bad Shoot, Unlawful orders, LEOs and Service members have a right to refuse any unlawful order. Even if it means facing administrative action, or courts martial. No sympathy or empathy here, for the shooters, or Troy industries.

    • Well, go ahead and ask them. I bet their response will be something like this?

      “What?”
      “Who?”
      “What?”
      [Sigh]
      “Really? No comment.”

  33. If they keep him on, not only will I not purchase from them, I will recommend that my friends do not as well. Hope you’re listening Troy..

  34. I stumbled across this by accident while looking for troy parts for my DPMS. I remember Ruby Ridge very well it was disgusting and out right MURDER that those cops committed. And got away with just as they always do. NOBODY involved with such a disgraceful cowardice act should be allowed anywhere near gun manufactures of any type. What if this had been your wife, Im sure your opinion would be different. Cops here are always getting the address wrong and killing innocent people, nothing ever happens to them. TROY I WILL LOOK ELSEWHERE FOR MY PARTS. You should be ashamed and loose your ass to say the least. To The WEAVER family Im truly sorry for your loss.

    • They were mostly Feds, not cops. But I get your point. I have four Troy mags, but I will not buy from them again.

      Steenking COLLABORATORS!

  35. SENT TO BROWNELL’S.

    Please send your own email to them. Feel free to cut and paste my text.
    ———————————————————————————————————-

    I’d like to request that Brownell’s consider the idea of no longer carrying Troy Industries products.

    By it’s attempts to hire Jody Weis, the anti-gun former Superintendent of the Chicago Police Department, and Dale Monroe, who was Lon Horiuchi’s partner (you know, the FBI sniper who shot Vicki Weaver in the face while she held a baby in her arms) at Ruby Ridge, Troy Industries has demonstrated that they are not a pro-Second Amendment company, yet they rack up millions in sales every year from the American gun owning public.

    While Troy does make quality products, so do many other companies who produce exactly the same product line, (Yankee Hill makes a clone of their BUIS with the same quality at half the price) and Brownell’s would still be in a position to offer the same items from other makers to it’s customer base. It is my contention that Brownell’s would gain itself priceless customer support by doing this and explaining why.

    I won’t insult either of our intelligences by saying something stupid like, “If you don’t drop Troy Ind., I won’t buy from you anymore”, because that would not be true. You guys rock, and I’d continue to be a customer regardless (unless you decided to hire Jody Weis or Dale Monroe, 😉 ) but I think it would demonstrate peerless leadership in the arena of Second Amendment rights for you to do so. Blowing out all Troy Products in stock at cost would likewise be a seriously attention grabbing move. I do promise I will not buy any of them to avoid the conflict of interest that would occur if I did so.

    Very Respectfully,

    “Josey Wales”
    Baghdad Iraq

  36. Soldiers deal with the enemy on a battlefield. Cops deal with their masters on American soil. That’s why they’re held to a different standard. Now, if they want to treat American citizens like the enemy on a battlefield, citizens will respond in kind. It’s no wonder this jack-booted thug, Troy, is in lock-step with another member of the Blue Wall. Small-dicked men with a Halloween costume and gun. Snowden’s list of every government employee is ready to be released at his death or command. Any “tough guy” with a toy badge better keep that in mind every time they deal with their employer, the American people.

  37. Thanks for letting us know. I will never be purchasing any goods or services from a Troy company in the future.

  38. Hey, Troy — while you’re making ridiculous hiring decisions and shooting yourselves in the foot repeatedly, perhaps you should also change your company motto to, “Women And Children First”.

    But, in reality, I thank you. These additional layers of transparency you have recently provided us illustrate just what your company is comprised of – JBT FILTH.

    Enjoy the ride down to complete insignifigance and obscurity. You’ve earned it.

  39. Everyone keeps saying Vicki and her baby was behind a door when shot. That is true but it was a screen door that you could see through like a window screen.Any sniper worth a dam could and should know exactly what he is looking at before he pulls the trigger.Troy industries sent me a letter reassuring me that it was a mistake on there part even thinking about hiring Ron, Dale,or Jody. however after reading all of the above Im wondering if they have a habit of hiring charles manson types. I hope not!

  40. I dont know Troy, or their employees. Everyone living near the Peoples Republic of Chicago knows its former Police head…’nuff on that (not worth the gray matter).
    I do know that those in charge of the frame-up of Mr Weaver, and those in charge of sending any LE authories to his home to extort him into becoming an informant, and especially all of the subsequent Ruby Ridge incident command staff, should have been fired, arrested, and tried for violating innumerable laws, and the Constitutional rights of the Weavers who should have been left alone in the first place. Those who followed their orders should have at least been fired.
    Attempting to excuse the murder of an unarmed woman clearly holding a baby, because the shooter was ordered to, is beyond weak, and compounds the tragedy. As is too often the case, we give our playground bullies badges and guns, and turn them loose on America.
    Not coincidentally, the Waco tragedy began with federal LE agents poking a stick into the cage of another family who was also on their own property, and bothering no one – over regularly leveraged means and ends around lazy cop work, like using tax evasion against people they cant seem to make a drug case against, or gun possession law violations – an oxymoron in America where everyone has the right to own any firearm they can carry, and to defend their homes with those tools – at least according the the Constitution – and the entire living US Supreme Court.
    Now we’re boycotting Troy. We should also be boycotting all retailers and manufacturers who associate with Troy. Why? Because they hire the poster children of over-reaching and corrupt government? Sure! That’d be enough. They corrupt themselves in the process. What’s worse, it appears that there is a pattern of hiring key people from government organizations who spent lots of money buying goods and services from Troy. How many more corrupt former government employees spent our tax dollars to buy cushy future jobs at Troy?
    Though Troy firearm accessories are generally outdated, and over-priced, and less costly and superior alternatives abound, somehow magically the long-ailing and equally behind the technology curve Colt Defense was contracted by the FBI to build custom LE6920’s with Troy accessories ( adding -FBP1 to the model number), and (get this) to give to all their agents for personal use! So they took a $1,000 (retail) COTS product, which is already available as a Magpul -accessorized variant for the same price), and added a few hundred bucks worth of marginal parts, and … I wonder who’s getting a kooshy reward job in a few years from this. Google the model number, lots of the Colt over-runs are for sale for just under $1200. No! Don’t buy the things, nor any Colt products, just see for yourself.
    Come to think of it, in addition to boycotting the brand and its retailers, and associated manufacturers, I want to know which mutual funds, banks, and other aggregated investment funds include this company in their portfolio -and boycott them too!
    Ive worn the uniform too, and I know full good and well that following an illegal order is still illegal. Yes, the fog of war causes humans to lose their humanity freakin’ fast (why militarizing our police is blowing up in our faces). I also know that playing games with public money is illegal for both the government vendor, and the government employee.
    I do not support corrupt people or organizations. As far as Im concerned, theyre the ones that the Oath refers to in the context of “…or domestic”.
    Even still, we should all pray for the agents who were caused to do so much harm to so many, and themselves in the process.
    …and fight like hell to stop lazy politicians who pontificate on about disarming law-abiding citizens to distract us from the plethora of societal issues those same politicians exacerbate over and over. Heck, lazy politicians cause crime, not guns dammit.

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