Home Invasion Highlights Danger of NY Mag Cap Limits

“Four people have been arrested in connection with a Town of Carroll home invasion and double homicide,” wivb.com reports. “Authorities say husband and wife 66-year-old Gordon Skinner and 59-year-old Joyce Skinner both died during the home invasion on Wheeler Hill Road, but are not saying how they were killed. Sheriff Gerace did say the couple was not shot . . . The Chautauqua County Sheriff’s Office says they ‘do not feel this was random.'” Random or not, TTAG reader Jake has this to say about that . . .

I live about 45 minutes away from this incident in Western New York State.  It is a quiet, rural area where many have a firearm handy but few expect any chance of ever needing it.

Now, I have one simply question, “What is the best way to distribute seven rounds among four determined home invaders?” Do I count off two a piece for the first three unwelcome guests in the door, hope one is enough for the final guy, and hope I don’t miss at all?  Perhaps it would be better to contact Mr. Cuomo directly and ask him?

As it is, it may be hard for him to hold onto the phone with all the blood on his hands; and it won’t be getting any better.

comments

  1. avatar kenpm says:

    Wait, is the NY limit 7 rounds per magazine or 7 rounds per weapon? If per mag, then 7+1 will allow you a generous 2 rounds per scumbag. That’s all anybody should ever need…

    1. avatar Mario C says:

      So how do you explain hundreds of rounds police fired at Boston Bomber and he is still on the loose???

      1. avatar kenpm says:

        Sarcasm

      2. avatar Fred says:

        Because paper targets at a range are different than human targets trying to kill you. Truth is most people don’t have the capability to actually pull the trigger when trained on another person because of conditioning.

        1. avatar Steve says:

          Bullshit.

          The Contention that: If someone (or several someones) breaks into your house in the middle of the night and it is clear your life, your children, and your spouse are in mortal danger, you will have a hard time dropping the hammer on said SOBs, is utter nonsense.

          Some people may have a hard time. It might be accurate to say many people will be “reluctant” to pull the trigger.

          But to say that “most people don’t have the capability to actually pull the trigger when trained on another person because of conditioning.”, is a pretty big stretch.

        2. avatar Joe Doakes says:

          I was in a bank during a robbery. If the dude had pulled a gun, instead of a finger, I would have dropped him as sure as I’m sitting here.

          I used my good judgment and he is alive and in prison because of it.

      3. avatar utdmatt says:

        Think he’s being sarcastic mario.

      4. avatar William Burke says:

        GET REAL, Mario.

      5. avatar Joe Doakes says:

        Poor marksmanship.

        🙂

    2. avatar EagleScout87 says:

      ^ this has to be a joke…

    3. avatar Cmdrlimpet says:

      Hey Ken, thanks for your expert assessment on exactly how many rounds it take to kill a man. If you’re done spouting your opinion as fact, maybe you can read up on exactly how many times a man can be shot before dying here:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

      1. avatar kenpm says:

        Dude, sarcasm

        1. avatar William Burke says:

          HAW HAW HAW! Are the two of you working in tandem?

        2. avatar Joe says:

          If you can get them to line up single file, and they’re real skinny – 1 should do it.

      2. avatar Jon says:

        Shotgun

        1. How is seven rounds from a shotgun going to be any different to seven from a handgun?

          If you miss, you miss & that’s pretty much as easy to do with a shotgun as a handgun.
          Were I to face multiple assailants, I’d be happier with my FAL & 20 rounds in all but the closest quarters but then I’d have the bayonet…..

    4. avatar uncommon_sense says:

      Unless it isn’t enough … like the mom in Georgia this year who shot a home invader 5 times before he finally retreated from the home and drove away. And she only missed with one shot.

      Now imagine four home invaders needing 5 rounds each to encourage them to leave. In a realistic, dynamic situation, you could burn through a 30 round magazine in hurry.

      1. avatar William Burke says:

        Great point. Always work to disturb the narrative. That’s how truth is arrived at.

    5. avatar Joe Doakes says:

      I will be making an adjustment to how I defend my family. Prior to this law I had a pre-ban 17 round magazine. By January of 1014 I will be forced to sell it.

      At that point most people will load 10 and load a 10 spare mag and keep it handy.

      Home invasions go down fast. The knock and push. Ring the bell. Or act like a person of authority to gain entrance. In either case you need to make those first shots count.

      Maybe I ought to switch to the .45 . . .

      Still debating.

  2. avatar Pwrserge says:

    I’ll take my Saiga 12, one slug and a load of OO buck per should do nicely.

    1. avatar Roscoe says:

      They must not have take Biden’s advice.

      1. avatar Pwrserge says:

        Well, I can agree that a shotgun is a great home defense gun, I think he and I would disagree on the exact gun. <_<

        1. avatar William Burke says:

          A slug is likely a bad choice in a home invasion scenario, though it would be interesting to see what kind of damage it might inflict. Is there data about shooting, say, feral pigs and boars with a 12-gauge slug?

          My 870 is loaded with #4 buckshot, mainly, although in mixed shell lengths. If anyone has pertinent advice about this choice, I’ll listen…

        2. avatar jwm says:

          William Burke. Have you ever read Jim Cirrilo’s book about his gunfights with the NYPD? Great book with great real world advice on guns. He tells of a case where a perp was shot with a 12 ga. slug and it took a second shot to put him down.

        3. avatar Jeff the Griz says:

          I live in a rental with thin walls and I have 2 windows and a door(between my bedroom and my little girls) that would offer potential entrance to our home, I put other measures into place but my choice to prevent lead into my little girls room is #6 bird, #6 bird, OO buck, OO buck, PDX1, in country I had 3inch #4 bird, and then all PDX1, I use the older 12g PDX1 slug and 3 buckshot. I had 3inch #4 bird as first shell in my rural home due to not all defense situations involve John Criminal, coyotes, coons, and skunks in the yard.

    2. avatar Joe Doakes says:

      How are you going to walk around the house with that?

  3. avatar flboots says:

    Why hasn’t cuomo taken the guns away from the mafia yet?

    1. avatar Roscoe says:

      Cuomo only knows how to make law abiding citizens comply.

      He (and the rest of the grabbers) haven’t a clue how to deal with lawbreakers and sociopaths other than a hand wringing early release.

    2. avatar S.CROCK says:

      to him, we (gun owners) are the mafia.

      1. avatar Russ Bixby says:

        Seconded!

    3. avatar DickG says:

      Whatever for would you ask such a question?
      .
      Governor Cuomo is the Mafia.
      .
      Silly boy!

  4. avatar Don says:

    You use the orphanage dinner rule. Everyone gets firsts before anyone gets seconds. If after dishing out the first round to each threat, you find any are still a threat to you or your family you then hand out seconds, thirds etc…..reload and repeat as necessary

    1. avatar Soccerchainsaw says:

      That’s a fine strategy and all but…
      what if the 1st guy is still coming at you after the “1st serving”?

      Of course if your comment was seriously well hidden sarcasm I’m obviously giving this too much thought.

      1. avatar Don says:

        I would say its a starting point but of course you have to access the situation as it unfolds. If we want to what if …..then what if the third attacker starts clobbering you while you are putting your fourth and fifth rounds in the second attacker. There is no answer that applies to all situations, you have to asses them as they go but I think it helps to have a starting plan. Mine is everybody gets first before anybody gets seconds and of course adapt as needed to stay alive. At the end of the day if its you vs four you are way behind the curve and you better start doing something about it!

        1. avatar Banky74 says:

          Agreed with your “orphanage dinner” rule, Don. I’ve taken tactical training at a few different schools and that seems to be the agreed upon tactical approach in that circumstance.

          Obviously gun fights are fluid and rules are meant to be broken, but I think the general idea is that if you can get (at least) a single bullet into all of your attackers, your chances of surviving just went up dramatically in most scenarios.

      2. avatar DickG says:

        Those that ask for more, should get more. It’s only fair!

    2. avatar TTACer says:

      Please sir, may I have another?

      1. avatar In Memphis says:

        “Please sir, may I have another?”

        Boy for sale!

  5. avatar jwm says:

    Do we even know if the murdered couple had a gun? Living under the NYS rules I would have an extended mag shotgun backed up by a handgun for every adult in the house. Living rural I would throw in a .30-30 for each.

    And I would join the NRA and any other gun rights orgs and vote the anti’s out if possible.

  6. avatar Pantera Vazquez says:

    Cuomo, just like Bloomberg, just like Schumer would not feel the blood on their hands.They have more pressing things to do. Have to figure out new ways to screw their constituents.

  7. avatar BladeDoc says:

    I was told by my SWAT friends that their doctrine is “Everybody gets one serving before anybody gets two” but I know that’s not the overall fastest way. Any discussion?

    1. avatar Don says:

      Depends on a lot of things like different distances to the threats or what is in thier hands but if thier all about the same threat at the same distance then everyone gets firsts before anyone gets seconds.

    2. avatar mountocean says:

      And it depends on how much “grain” constitutes one serving.

      1. avatar bruce says:

        First come , first served until they feel that they have had enough, but nobody wants the clean up so for night time, closed steel door jams and steel bedroom doors, crowbar resilient plastic adhesive sheeting on the windows, positive outside air pressure to the bedrooms via blower w/outside air access in conjunction with auto/manually activated hard wired whole house (except bedrooms) visually robbing smoke or pepper spray . Or some big dogs with bad attitudes, but there would be clean up associated them unless you teach them to “GO” in your local liberals yard.

  8. avatar Jason says:

    7 rounds of 00 buck may be the best solution. Effectively firing 8-9 32 ACP rounds per shot will drop an intruder right quick.

    1. avatar Daniel Silverman says:

      I would tend to debate this but my shotgun only hides five rounds. I have my personal preference for ballistic stopping power.

    2. Only if they hit & that may well take more than a couple of shots in a highly stressed situation.

  9. avatar mlopilato says:

    It only takes a few ounces of that filthy, filthy lucre to wipe Cuomo’s hands clean.

  10. Simple solution: don’t comply and retain your standard capacity mags for it’s far better to be tried by twelve than buried by six.

    1. avatar Michael B. says:

      This.

      And opt for a jury trial. Any private defense attorney worth his salt would be able to turn it around and make the state persecutor look like complete ****.

      1. avatar MothaLova says:

        Depends whether you’re being tried in the country or the city. City jurors will condemn you. (Still better to be alive, though.)

        1. avatar A-Rod says:

          Have you seen the jury selection process? I’d take my chances.

        2. avatar A-Rod says:

          Have you seen the jury selection process?

  11. avatar Gregolas says:

    Power-mad politicians without logic and sheeple citizens will equal dead citizens every time. It should have been a DGU.

  12. avatar Daniel Silverman says:

    I would never advocate breaking the law, except when I do. People need to follow a don’t ask don’t tell policy. We will deal with the law later. Being a live is more important.

  13. avatar dwb says:

    i always make perfect headshots, especially at live moving targets under duress. I would only need 3, because at least one usually kills two zombies intruders, as they are following each other through the doorway.

    Oh, wait, this is in real life not a video game?

  14. avatar TheSav says:

    Cuomo just wipes his bloody hands on LaPierre’s shirt and then screams while frantically pointing that the GUNLOBBY!!1! are all monsters.

  15. avatar Randy Drescher says:

    When every shot counts carry a 45 & this is much more important in NY. My trailer was broken in last night & I saw the guy inside of it. I couldn’t get to him in time as I went back inside for my 45. The lead officer said he very much wished he could carry a 45, sometimes the 40’s MIl. cops carry just don’t do it he said, Randy

  16. avatar Ralph says:

    Hey, New Yawkas — “New Yawk Reload.”

    Spell it right and look it up.

  17. avatar Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    Guess I’ll never know since Texas has no silly restrictions, and I reckon if I can’t take down home invaders with my G19 +2 mag and my 33rd spare, my double-stack CZ .45, or couldn’t get to my 30rd ACR, then I’m proper fcuked.

  18. avatar Blehtastic says:

    I like the idea of a bayonet on the end of a 590, but if they were old that bayonet may not do much good.

    #edit#
    Oh yea, 8>7.

    Um, just die, I guess.

  19. avatar Alan W. Rose says:

    So it will be eaasier for criminals to disarm their victims during a mag change.

  20. avatar Accur81 says:

    Shoot the first bad guy 7-8 times, grab his 15 round 9mm, and shoot the rest.

    /sarc

    I’m going to say that your right to live trumps any law that arbitrarily limits you to 7 or 10 rounds per mag in your own home – just like I’ve let people go for speeding to the hospital when they’ve had legitimate life threatening emergencies.

    If you only have 7s or 10s, you’re definitely going to need reloads, accuracy, and a whole lot of luck. My weapon of choice against 4 armed dirtbags at home would be my Mossberg 930 with 7+1 of 00 buck, 4 slugs in the side pouch, a Glock 35 with 15 rounders on my hip and spare mags, and a great big good luck charm. In reality, I’d be using a Glock 23 or 27 with spare mags to get to the long guns.

    1. avatar Accur81 says:

      Dang! 14 hits from a .45 and still makes it to the operating table.

  21. avatar Jake in AK says:

    Restricting law-abiding citizens in what they can use for self defense is silly. I think we all agree to that.

    As to order of fire… My personal plan is every threat gets one for starters, then use additional doses as needed.
    However, like any plan, I’ll drop it te second it no longer seems valid and all situations are diferent, your milage may vary

  22. avatar tom rkba says:

    RE: Round robin shooting

    If you are facing three or more armed men, you are unlikely to beat all three on initiative. One is bound to get a shot off while you are shooting the others. Tactics are exceptionally important and you need to either be moving or behind cover.

    Eight shots stinks, but it is what you are stuck with. You will have to plan a bit more. Buy a second handgun and holster for a New York Reload. Perhaps have a second shotgun around.

    1. avatar CarlosT says:

      Part of your plans might include job hunting and home shopping in a locale in which the legislature isn’t trying to get you killed.

  23. avatar Jeff the Griz says:

    I guess this is why double barrel joe only wants you to have 2, one for you and one for the wife….

  24. avatar Joe Wright says:

    I worked as a Correctional Officer in Iowa, for seven years, before I transferred to Iowa Prison Industries. I took inmates to Iowa City for health care on the 10 to 6 shift (we used Fort Madison CH in an emergency). In our carry training, we were taught to shoot multiple targets in the following manner. For 3 people, you have Target 1, 2 & 3. You shoot #1 one time, shoot #2, one time, shoot #3, two times. Then you go back and shoot #2 one more time and shoot # 1 one more time. It’s call ” feeding every body once, before you feed them again”. I never had to use it, but there was an inmate, shot in Iowa City, by a CO. In the butt cheek. OUCH !!

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