The Truth About the DHS’s MRAPs

There’s been a lot of internet buzz about the Department of Homeland Security’s “new” MRAPs (a.k.a., tanks). I’ve been holding off posting about the story; there’s a lot of bad intel out there about government gun grabbers. Just because gun owners are paranoid doesn’t mean Uncle Sam is as bad as they think it is. Sometimes, of course, it’s worse. But it appears that the report that the DHS has purchased 2700 new MRAPs is wrong. Here’s the 411 from the official spokesman for Das Vaterland. I mean, Homeland . . .

The MRAPs were transferred to DHS from the Department of Defense, free of charge. But despite recent reports, they have actually been in service since at least 2008.

“The MRAPs we have are not new,” Ross Feinstein, a spokesman for DHS, told Business Insider. “We have been using them for years.”

“[The vehicle] is used in the execution of high-risk warrants — including drug trafficking, smuggling, and contraband,” Feinstein told Business Insider. “We have 16 MRAPs nationwide.”

Sixteen is a lot less than 1700. But still . . . drug trafficking? Isn’t that the DEA’s deal? Or the ATF if it’s guns. Or the CIA if it’s foreign terrorists. Or is that the FBI? They do explosives too, right?

You know in all this excitement I lost track of all the federal agents with SWAT and SRT teams ready to enforce federal gun control laws of one sort or another. But I do remember that the DHS recently raided a New Mexico gun dealer, confiscated his guns and charged him with . . . nada.

So the DH is out there, grabbing guns. But they only have 16 heavily armored troop vehicles with which do it. Feel better now?

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About Robert Farago

Robert Farago is the Publisher of The Truth About Guns (TTAG). He started the site to explore the ethics, morality, business, politics, culture, technology, practice, strategy, dangers and fun of guns.

137 Responses to The Truth About the DHS’s MRAPs

  1. avatarAdam says:

    To answer your final question…no.

  2. avatarGunracer1958 says:

    And still we will hear the oft stated “The cops are outgunned” horse$hit line. Between armored HumVees, the MRAPs and the who-knows how many thousands of “re-purposed/transferred” M-16/M4 rifles (sorry Personal Defense Weapons) from the DoD, I can’t hardly imagine that anyone is outgunned except the civilian populace.

  3. avatarAlphaGeek says:

    Point of order: MRAPs are armored heavy trucks. They are not tanks.

    I know, I know, it’s more sensational to call an MRAP a tank, especially if you’re the type who’s all about getting your fellow wingnuts all worked up about yet another government move towards tyranny…

    • avatarPwrserge says:

      An MRAP may not be an Abrahms, but it beats a Panzer I or Panzer II hands down. Want to keep arguing semantics?

      • avatarRobert Farago says:

        Still . . . text amended.

      • avatarGreenMan says:

        When your semantics are stupid…yes. MRAPs aren’t going to roll down the road with the capability to run over and crush cars. MRAPs don’t have the capability to fire HE rounds at armored targets.

        How about we just realize it was a gross exaggeration which only conveys an “angry government” vision in the less informed.

        • avatarUnapologeticallyAmerican says:

          I guess you’ve never been in an MRAP when trying to blow through an ambush and there are cars in the way…. crunch…..

          We had to change to MRAPs in Iraq because they are more survivable than a Bradley when hit. Purpose built to withstand IEDs (which actually makes sense if you plan to raid a back-woods militia where you could expect IEDs).

          I don’t think anyone is arguing that an MRAP is the same as an M-1 Main Battle Tank, BUT if comparing to WWII tanks…. I’d take the MRAP for manuverability and lethality.

      • avatarAnon in CT says:

        Sure, I’ll argue. The Panzers were, for their day, main battle tanks. The MRAP is a commercial truck chassis that has been hardened against mines, IEDs and light small arms fire.

        • avatarMr. Lighter says:

          That, and I’m willing to bet that a gun from a Panzer II would punch right through most of the armor on that truck.

          While we’re at it, I don’t believe that there is a law stating that you can’t create your own armored truck….

        • avatarPwrserge says:

          While this conversation is completely off topic, my fault, I’ll bite. A Panzer I was armed with twin 7.92mm MGs, a Panzer II had a 20mm cannon. That’s hardly a main battle tank armament. In fact, the MRAP can mount equal if not heavier firepower. (M2 .50 cal or a 40mm automatic grenade launcher.) The armor on a MRAP about even with the early panzer chassis and it has far better mobility. It wasn’t until the Panzer III series that he Germans began fielding true battle tanks.

        • avatarAlan Rose says:

          (Opinion) Semantics aside, DHS could have gotten tanks, but they tear the roads up quickly. MRAPs are more DOT friendly.

      • avatarWLCE says:

        It still doesn’t beat a M113 or M2/M3.

        and MRAPs are severely handicapped when off road and in narrow confines. They initially were designed for the dirt roads and grasslands of Africa and the US models were strictly confined to asphalt and hardened dirt road.

      • avatarBrad says:

        Point of order: Pzkw II would beat the shit out of any MRAP with its 20mm KwK 30 fitting AP.

        • avatarPwrserge says:

          I’ll see your 20mm cannon and raise you a 40mm automatic grenade launcher.

      • avatarDavid Pittelli says:

        1) The Panzer II had a 2cm (.79 caliber) cannon. An MRAP has no cannon. So no, an MRAP would not defeat a Panzer II. The Panzer II would blow it apart.
        2) An A-10 Warthog could beat a Panzer II. Nevertheless, an A-10 Warthog, being an airplane and not an armored tracked vehicle with a direct-fire cannon, is not a tank. While an MRAP is at least a vehicle, it is also not a tank, being a wheeled vehicle lacking a cannon.
        3) Sometimes it makes sense to debate semantics – such as when someone has used the wrong word in a written document, especially if the word chosen is more inflammatory than the proper word.
        4) The MRAP is relatively well protected against explosives in the ground, in part because it is so high off the ground, and has armor in the floor. A tank tends to have more frontal armor, and is built lower to the ground to make it a harder target for other tanks and anti-tank guns.

      • avatarinterventor says:

        No, but a Tiger or King Tiger would kill an MRAP

    • avatarJC says:

      True, but when my MRAP survived a 7 EFP array in Iraq it proved that there aren’t many civilian weapons that are going to take one out stateside. Tank…perhaps not. Pretty damn robust…absolutely.

      • avatarthatoneguy says:

        Wow, you got lucky. They ripped through ours like a hot knife through butter…

      • avatarPK says:

        Sounds like the copper disc wasn’t thick enough, it wasn’t aimed well, or you were exceedingly lucky.

        M1A2 SEP TUSK tanks have been rendered crispy by EFP IEDs. Recovered IEDs thought to be similar were only about 12″ diameter and twice as long.

    • avatarWLCE says:

      I agree. That was driving me nucking futs when people kept referring to them as tanks.

      I spent two of my various tours overseas in the MRAP (The RG31 in Iraq and a M-ATV in Afghanistan ((SWEET F^CKING RIDE BTW))

      Whats interesting is that most MRAPs produced, like the Camian, are simply a existing truck chassis mounted with a modular MRAP body. Comparatively flexible and easy to produce. The MRAP is also 1970s technology from Rhodesia yet it took 3-4 years into the Iraq war to get them to theatre (WTF!?). Here’s the scary part for you reactionists: thousands of MRAPs have been placed into storage simply because they’re useless for afghanistan (except the M-ATVs) and the forces in Iraq have a significantly smaller fleet of vehicles.

      For the most part, they’re limited to roads. The M-ATV and the RG31s (which arent in service much) are the only models capable of off-road travel.

      That being said, there’s worse vehicles the DHS could get. The fact that federal law enforcement are obtaining them is pretty scary itself.

      • avatarBarstow Cowboy says:

        What kind of mileage do they get? Aren’t the feds supposed to be leading the way when it comes to going green? Is there a hybrid version of this thing?

    • avatarBrazofuerte says:

      Even a paranoid schizophrenic can have enemies…

    • avatarMemory says:

      They’re not tanks, they’re just battle vehicles modified for urban combat. That’s nothing we should be worried about, right? Because if DHS was planning to put down civil unrest why would they want vehicles like this?

  4. avatarensitu says:

    There were fewer than that at Waco

    • avatarensitu says:

      86 men women and children were shot, suffocated, or burned alive by the ATF trying to confiscate a few illegal guns. Nineteen of the 86 were children. 20 if you count a fetus.
      All because of a single report of an illeagl weapon coincidently occuring just prior to an ATF budget hearing

      • avatarCleophus says:

        Hey man, don’t point out such statistics or bring up such facts or “AlphaGeek” might think you’re trying to “work up” your “fellow wingnuts.” He’s sounds like one of those guys that think “I’m too sophisticated and erudite to think that my government is out to enslave me.” He’s just to cool to believe his own eyes. He must think that all this military gear and military tactics the alphabet gangs are deploying is purely for weekend fun with the family! Sounds to me like “AlphaGeek” is “all about” keeping his head firmly stuck in the sand while his butt’s hanging out in the wind. Damn, it boggles the mind how his type have to have their head shoved firmly up an ass before they understand that’s where the shit comes from. What do these people think the alphabet gangs are planning to use these offensive weapons and tactics for? Why do the DHS, FBI, ATF etc. etc. need impliments and tactics of war to police American Citizens??? Why, when the police respond to a call does the scene now look more and more like Belfast than Baltimore? Why have we allowed our goverment to militarize our local police forces, teach them battlefield tactics and condition their minds by having them shoot targets of pregnant American women, little boys and old men? Am I paranoid? Alarmist? A “wingnut?” Or am I just taking what I see going on around me at face value? If it walks like a duck………..

        • avatarVeidt says:

          Wingnut alert.

        • avatarAlphaGeek says:

          I didn’t realize you knew me so well. Thanks for being a fan, autographed picture will be delivered by dynamic entry team in 3… 2… 1…

      • avatarChris Mallory says:

        The ATF started the mess. It was the FBI agents, who were according to Reno “getting tired” , who murdered most of those people.

        • avatarcbpelto says:

          TO: Chris Mallory
          RE: Not Just the FBI

          It was the FBI agents, who were according to Reno “getting tired” , who murdered most of those people. — Chris Mallory

          There’s evidence showing three active shooters in the vicinity of an IFV on the back-side (away from the media cameras), shooting into the structure.

          Several months later, the Special Feces types suffered incredible loses of three of their own on the same day in two separate ‘training accidents’. I hadn’t seen anything like it before. Such professionals having such ‘accidents’ in a single day.

          Dead men tell no tales.

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [I believe in coincidence. I just don't trust it.]

  5. avatarJeff the Griz says:

    16 is still too many “weapons of war” on our streets!

  6. avatargemalo says:

    …and we believe this why? I don’t trust anything the government says.

    • avatarShenandoah says:

      Exactly. Is a gov’t spokesman really any more reliable or trustworthy than any other given source? I don’t understand why people continue to breathe a sigh of relief whenever the gubmint tries to soothe their fears by proclaiming whatever it is the gen pop wants to hear.

      Osama was killed by by SEAL team 6? Yes, the government even told us they had a positive DNA match!

      The economy is recovering? Yes, the government says unemployment is down and spending is up!

      DHS really only has a handful of MRAPs rather than 1700? Yes, a gov’t spokesman said so!

      Phew, I feel so much better. I think I’ll go turn in all of my guns, the government tells me I’m safe after all.

      • avatarShenandoah says:

        And as a disclaimer I’m not saying Osama WASN’T killed in the raid a few years back. Let’s not open that can of worms here.

  7. avatarOddux says:

    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/page/294634_Factchecking-_Obama_DHS_Purcha

    The 2717 went to the Marines. The DHS does still have 16 MRAPs, but they are not tanks. They are highly protected troop transports. Basically a bigger, heavier humvee.

    I’m not about to sweat over 16 of these things, even if they were mounting weapons on them, which they aren’t.

    • avatarneiowa says:

      Do you sweat over domestic Predators unarmed (but with hardpoints etc. installed where Big Sis/_____ can load weapons PDQ)? Sweat a CIC who has recieved clearance from a thug Attorney General to attack (execute) US citizens IN THE US using drones (or apparently using any old Jason Bourne type at hand).

      Interesting detail is the the 132nd Fighter Wing of the Iowa (Air) National Guard in Des Moines, IA (smack dab in the center of CONUS) is now turning in their old school F16′s and receiving model airplanes/drones which they are to used remotely for the Afganistan mission. Except they have 2yrs to trainup/reorg and Obummer is iving up in Afganistan the day after tomorrow. And apparenlty and unusual AF organization/TOE in that they will reportedly have a large intell collection and analysis “squadron” to process raw intell. Just wondering.

  8. avatarChris says:

    In your alphabet soup you stated: CPB should handle smuggling. I assume you mean CBP “Customs and Border Protection”; Yes, that would be them and they’ve been a subdivision of DHS for years.

    http://www.cbp.gov/

    note the DHS logo in the upper left corner.

  9. avatarOldBenturningingrave says:

    And nobody from DHS would ever lie to us. Actually, I would trust that spokesman more than I would Janet Napolitano. At least Ross Feinstein hasn’t been caught in a blatant lie (that I know of).

  10. avataruser3369 says:

    An MRAP is not a tank. It is a Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicle.

    These vehicles are constructed to survive IED blasts and small arms fire. They sport a hatch on top of the vehicle that can support a rotating turret or Crew Remote Operated Weapon, or essentially a remote controlled turret. The largest weapon that can be mounted on this vehicle as a MK19 Automatic Grenade Launcher, with the M2 .50cal coming in at a close second. And it can support only ONE of these weapons in a standard configuration. It is NOT designed to fire high energy projectiles such as a tank would. Depending on the variant (MAT-V or MAXX-PRO), it can hold 5 to 7 occupants.

    Essentially, it is a medium sized troop transport vehicle that can sustain a large IED blast from beneath and limited small arms fire.

    I love this site, but lets not get too sensationalist.

    • avatarCleophus says:

      Exactly how would you say the MRAP compares, in armor, manpower and lethality to, say, what the average American Citizen can field? I don’t want to be too “sensationalist,” but I think that an armored MRAP with a Ma Deuce and a grenade launcher is just a little “much” to take care of the average Bubba in a tee shirt. Though if they added a flame thrower, the feds could speed up the kiddie cookin’ to a fraction of the time it took at Waco……..

      • avataruser3369 says:

        In terms of its armor, it ranks pretty comparable to armored vehicles available to civilians. In regards to its ability to withstand an IED blast, there is no comparison. My MAT-V saved my life twice. However, it is unlikely that the US Government would use buried IEDs as offensive weapons, so its pretty comparable to an armored car if you disregard that aspect.

      • avatarWilliam O. B'Livion says:

        If you think DHS is going to come for you change your lifestyle.

  11. avatarRydak says:

    Id have no problem if they bought them in mass. They are protection, nothing civis should be prohibited from owning either.

    • avatarCleophus says:

      Have a spare $125,000 to spend on armor, do you? I don’t.

      • avatarneiowa says:

        The chassis (no body) cost way more than $125. IH/Navistar units over$700k ea.

        I’l go with armored car or perhaps Schützenpanzer.

        • avatarBarstow Cowboy says:

          Maybe you can start one of those prepper groups (euphemism for militia) and everyone can chip in a grand or whatever, and then you’ll have your MRAP. If Navistar won’t sell you one, threaten a boycott.

  12. avatarMatt in FL says:

    Do we know where the 1700 figure came from? I mean, I saw it on Drudge, but the original source?

    • avatarLoyd says:

      I ask this about lots of claims, but keep going in circles chasing sources.

      • avatarAlphaGeek says:

        That’s generally a sign that someone (e.g. a reporter for Drudge) either willfully misinterpreted or flat-out made up a “fact” for an article.

        When I read sensational assertions like this one, and I can’t get from story to authoritative source in two hops or less, I tend to assume the entire story is suspect until proven otherwise.

        • avatarBadger 8-3 says:

          You do realize that Drudge is a news aggregate, right? So there are no “Drudge reporters” writing articles. The original link on Drudge led to an AP story, I believe.

        • avatarAlphaGeek says:

          The popularity of news aggregators like Drudge has given rise to “news organizations” which exist solely to provide content to a single outlet, or a small group of ideologically-affiliated outlets. It was those quasi-news “reporters” I was referring to, which wasn’t clear in my comment.

      • Navistar factory was contacted direct. Factpry gave the number refitted for DHS as a specificc 2712 …so far. SO WHAT IS THIS BULL ABOUT DHS PAYING FOR 2712 ?? THEN WHERE ARE THE REST ?? THEY SAY THEY ONLY HAVE 16 ?? The Govenor of Tennessee a couple weeks ago now (he and a few other smart Govenors have activated PRIVATE STATE MILITIAS) HAD HIS MILITIA MEET A HALF DOZEN MRAPS ON FLATBEDS AT HIS BORDER ..AND KICKED THEIR ASS BACK TO THEIR FEMA HIDDEN FACILITY IN KENTUCKY.. Makes NO SENSE for DHS to BUY MRAPS FOR SOMEBODY ELSE. POINT IN FACT …DHS, IF CORRECT WAS USING DOD PROCUREMENT CHANNELS. CAN’T LOGICALLY SAY …OH …DOD IS HAVING DHS PURCHASE MRAPS FOR DOD ??? THAT’S NONSENSE.

    • avatarSkyler says:

      It came from that kook, Alex jones. Drudge cites him a lot for some bizarre reason.

    • avatarcbpelto says:

      TO: Matt in FL
      RE: 1700

      Do we know where the 1700 figure came from? — Matt in FL

      I suspect it’s the remainder from the 2717 of the contract, after the Marines get their set of vehicles.

      The Marines have only three or four divisions. The 2717 is enough to equip roughly NINE DIVISIONS.

      So where are the rest of these vehicles supposed to go? Inquiring minds want to know.

      Regards,

      Chuck(le)
      [Be Prepared.....]

  13. avatarJim D says:

    Its time the “police” get back in their cop uniforms and stop all the olive drab/camo and extreme military get ups. This is sooooo much like ’30s Germany!

  14. avatarthe last Marine out says:

    As the Communist say TRUST ME! NO WAY ! what a pack of RATS and lies … and DRONES only kill bad guys. SURE …. All LIES>>>>>>>>>>

  15. avatarWilliam says:

    If you trust this statement from DHS you trust used car salesmen, too… RIGHT?

    How come he wasn’t asked about the purchase of nearly TWO BILLION ROUNDS of ammunition? Just and and grasshopper stuff, I betcha!!

  16. avatarAnon in CT says:

    Alos, unlike a lot of things that police are allowed to have that we can’t, I am pretty sure that anyone with enough scratch and access to a large supply of diesel can buy an MRAP for themselves. I don’t know if the military is selling any surplus, but if not I’d think Navistar could hook you up. It’s a truck with a lot of armor and structural upgrades.

    Now the M2 .50 cal accessory package is another issue . . .

    • avatarAlphaGeek says:

      I’m sure one of the AR500 armor-plate shops that are hungry for new business models now that we’re past the peak for building war machinery (this time around) would be VERY glad to take someone’s money to up-armor a heavy-truck chassis. Complete with custom fabrication of the passenger compartment and everything.

      Frankly, I don’t much like the fuel bill for my current vehicles. I’m quite certain I wouldn’t want to feed an 8L turbodiesel dragging 30,000lbs around town.

    • avatarWLCE says:

      for the money that a civilian can spend on a MRAP, that civilian would be better off spending it on a surplus M113 or Soviet MTLB. Im not kidding XD

      They’re not “war” vehicles per se and, indeed, they are utterly useless for conventional warfare. They are strictly counter insurgency vehicles.

  17. avatarBob says:

    I’m surprised it took them this long to end up with some of them. When I worked in the defense industry there we had a training class about the heavy brigade combat teams (HBCT) makeup. The instructor basically said the army moving forward did not have a place the MRAP. As I heard it told the army more MRAP’s than it knew what to do with as every senator wanted to made sure they were seen to have been insuring that these “got to the troop”. The media picked up on the benefit of the MRAP in Iraq, spread it about, and it was the new thing to show your support forthe troops. I heard a lot of them would be “sold” to the Iraqis.

    Something else I learned of interest in that stint, there are a mess of vehicles sitting in storage, of various levels of operability, usually Bradleys and M113s ( I forget the defense industry language that describes the practice and conditions). Once they reach a certain classification they can be had free “where is, as is” to state and local gov’ts (also foreign ally gov’ts who then pay defense contractors to refirb and modify). After they get old enough I wouldn’t be surprised to see MRAPs start to replace the standard SWAT trucks.

    • avatarBarstow Cowboy says:

      Maybe they should just put them on the lot at Hummer dealerships in Scottsdale, AZ and Orange County, CA. Once one idiot buys one, everyone in that guy’s zip code will be pulling money out of his tract home and financing one on a 120 month payment plan with nothing down and 10% financing just trying to keep up with their neighbors. No need to confiscate wealth, you can get people to surrender it in exchange for trucks you were just going to give away in the first place. Budget problem solved.

  18. avatarLTC F says:

    I am concerned about the fact that every federal agency from the Postal Service to the Social Security Administration has a SWAT team, equipped with automatic weapons and some form of armored vehicle.

    I am more concerned with the fact that the Attorney General has issued a statement to the United States Senate that the President of the United States has the legal authority to order the execution of an American Citizen on US soil wihout so much as a trial (or even an indictment). I am more concerned that the NLRB (which at least to the best of my knowledge doesn’t have a SWAT team) has declared that since it disagrees with a unanimous ruling by a US Court of Appeals that they will not abide by the ruling.

    The disregard for the law and the United States Constitution by the current regime (and I do not use that word lightly) should scare all of us. Yet we become distracted by stuff like the Sequester (OMG a 2.5% cut in the budget…the sky is falling), our current dictators golf game, and yes, gun trucks in the hands of DHS.

    • avatarWLCE says:

      “The disregard for the law and the United States Constitution by the current regime (and I do not use that word lightly) should scare all of us. ”

      yup and you can bet when the house of cards comes tumbling down, theyll fight kicking and screaming on their way out into irrelevance.

      Desperate systems do anything in their power to hold onto the status quo, to try and keep their ivory tower together as it crumbles at the base. This fact is as old as history.

    • avatarBarstow Cowboy says:

      What concerns me is that just about everyone on this forum pretty much agrees with you whether they’re conservative or whether they’re liberal, but no matter how bad it gets, they will ALL pretty much re-elect the same crop of feckless self-serving elites every chance they get, based solely on their belief that the idea of electing anything other than a republican or a democrat is a pipe dream.

      • avatarcapt eddie says:

        I agree with your observation about the sheeple who complain but perpetuate this mess by voting the same way every time.
        I on the other hand, do vote but I also realize that its a rigged system. Here’s how to do it properly…..1.) help vote in a candidate. Now here’s the hard part…..2.) keep checking up on him. Check his voting record,attendance, things like that to make sure he is doing what he said he would do. And, Here is the fun part….3.) if he violates his oath,doesn’t do what he promised…….HELP VOTE THE BUM OUT!!!
        But, then again this is just me rambling on.

    • avatarSome Guy says:

      I think your concerns are fairly well grounded – with some reservations. In my experience with the LE community I found that many of these SWAT teams are assembled simply out of SWAT envy. Hey, they got one, why can’t we? as well as a means for the boys to have some fun and the commanders to play Patton. I’m surprised the Federal Reserve doesn’t have one yet. Even so the plethora of para-military groups is worrisome. Whatever the specific qualities of the MRAP and other hardware, its absolutely capable of overcoming any resistance from any individual or small group of “hold-outs” resisting the grabbers and this is something to think about.

      This is another example of unintended consequences.
      After the initial victory in Iraq it became obvious that the Iraqis, with the aid of al-Qaeda and other militants, was determined to drag out the war with the usual “guerilla” tactics. I used whatever powers of persuasion I had – which I’m sure were echoed by many others – to convince the Army to acquire a number of “Armored Cars” such as used by many European powers in the Colonial Wars of the 20th Century. Despite having one of the finest reconnaissance vehicles of WWII, the M8 – “Gazelle” to the Brits – the Army has always been resistant to this concept. The stop gap efforts to up-armor the Humvees just didn’t cut it and even now they seem content to stick with the “Stryker” – really a APC – but have come up with the MRAP instead. As commented on by several of the fellow veterans on this site, its really more of a transport but again more than sufficient to overcome isolated civilian resistance. The numbers are “questionable” in that I’m sure there’s plenty of them tucked away in various government cubbyholes from sea to shining sea waiting to be passed on to whoever is weaving the latest web.

      Whether this is a concerted effort to do an end around of not only “Posse Comitatus” but long standing American tradition is questionable, but bears watching. Its up to Congress to oversight the heck out of this and other strange goings-on and I applaud the latest efforts of Senators Paul and Cruz to do so.

      Thanks again for your thoughtful tome Colonel – til next time – RV

  19. avatarCorey says:

    “they’ve been in service since 2008″ is misleading. While in Aberdeen for AIT these same variants of MRAP’s were being blown up for ballistics testing ( was there march to end of june 2007) I was then deployed to Iraq Nov. 28th 2007. By January these MRAPS showed up on the scene, we took delivery of some of the first MRAPS used in country due to our A.O. DHS has not had these for years, they’ve recently been given them because they’re older (now out of warranty) but still does not address the questions of why, would a domestic goon force need these?

  20. avatarSkyler says:

    See? Again we learn to never trust anything being claimed by Alex Jones. Why do people keep falling for his lies and trickery?

  21. avatarDoc Marron says:

    Logistically they are easily defeated.. Shoot the 700 pound tires, in a short time they will have 0 tires to place on them.

    • avatarSkyler says:

      Are you so sure about that?

      The MRAP-ATV is a based on the OSK KOSH 7 ton truck (MTVR) which comes with air compressors that keep the tires inflated with multiple large holes in them. I’m not an expert on the MRAP or the MATV, but I think they have the same system.

      On the MTVR, I saw one with huge, fist-sized holes in all the tires come blasting several miles from an ambush after being hit by an IED, and sustained T and E mounted machine gun and other small arms fire with five dead and six seriously wounded Marines piled in the back. The tires were fully inflated all the way back, but they were quite loud with the air blasting out the sides.

      I have no end of respect for that truck, and just seeing one gives me a warm feeling inside.

      • avatarBarstow Cowboy says:

        I think what he meant was that while these things do have a run flat system, at some point you have to get a fresh set of tires. They can’t run on the run flat indefinitely. If you continued to blow out all four tires every chance you got, eventually the manufacturers (there can’t be that many of them) wouldn’t be able to keep up with the demand, and then the trucks wouldn’t be able to be used. Or, maybe you can just go to the manufacturers directly and buy up all the tires so that DHS can’t procure them, the way that DHS has bought up all the ammo so that we can’t get any.

    • avatar16V says:

      While very creative in a conventional sense, our ME adversaries possess limited knowledge and skillsets. These vehicles are very useful protecting our troops against the primitive natives in those theatres.

      However, from an MRAP to an M1A2, there’s hundreds of field expedients to remove them from any battlefield. Doesn’t take any complicated materiel, but one does have to have an understanding of the tools around you and the weaknesses of the vehicles.

  22. avatarCaptain Catsup says:

    Homeland security? NO! More like the Department of Homeland Stupidity! Unless you can prove to me that zombies plant ied’s.

    • avatarcbpelto says:

      TO: Captain Catsup, et al.
      RE: DHS — ‘Stupidity’?

      Homeland security? NO! More like the Department of Homeland Stupidity! Unless you can prove to me that zombies plant ied’s. — Captain Catsup

      Hardly.

      If DHS gets a significant number of these vehicles, it is more likely that DHS is becoming Obama’s American version of the Waffen SS — the official armed state security, with allegiance only to dear leader and the party. Just like Hitler.

      Remember? Back in 2009 where Obama was saying we needed a military-grade home security force?

      DHS is appearing to mutate into something entirely different from what it was under Bush the Lesser.

      Regards,

      Chuck(le)
      [Be Prepared....learn how to make thermite grenades in the safety of your own home....visit YouTube....before the government suppresses the information.]

  23. avatarDavid says:

    Question Robert:

    Do you ever get flack from your LE friends, co-workers, acquaintances, whatevers about the stuff you post & host here? You are definitely anti-cop (bad cop) when you need to be.

  24. avatarRandy Drescher says:

    I demand a plan. We don’t need war weapons on our streets even if eva feinswine says its ok. Boots on the ground control territory, for those who think different, not people hiding in a sardine can, Randy

    • avatarWA_2A says:

      Hah! Damn right. Let’s flip that “no earthly reason” argument right back at them. They need to be held accountable, just like we do. I’m sick of this “one rule for us, one rule for them” garbage, and I’m sick of being a second-class citizen to these over-militarized mall-ninja cops.

  25. avatarDyspeptic Gunsmith says:

    Robert, Robert, Robert… sigh. I see I have to teach you Deutschspraeche in addition to all manner of gun technica.

    The proper nominative is “Das Vaterland,” because in German, compound nouns take the gender (der – masculine, die – feminine, das – neuter) of the last noun (or “root noun”) in the compound.

    So while “Vater” (father) is “der” (masculine, as you’d expect), “Land” is neuter, or “das,” und so, “Vaterland” is a “das.”

    Now, if this were a masculine noun, we’d have to get into the fact that “for” (or “fuer” in German) is an accusative preposition, which would make the definite article “den” (pronounced “dane”), but let’s not worry about that just now.

    While we can argue that the Unemployed Watercolor Artist could have had a better linguist working on that neuter issue, making it a fem noun makes it lose all it’s punch…

    unless we’re going to start talking about subtle references to Dear Leader’s Big Sister, who heads up the DHS. ;-)

  26. avatarD says:

    Robert, I have much love for you and what you’ve done here. So take what I’m about to say like a good friend that’s try to talk you out of marrying some crazy Swedish model because you think she’s hot (I’ll let you insert a link, those are great btw).

    Your such a tool dood. This reminds me of time you said, “Obama doesn’t want to take your guns.” You said that allot. I’m sorry to rub salt in the wound but you need to wake up and stay awake. I use to think you posted stuff like this to stir a controversy. I’ve realized you are actually trying to convince yourself that its not as bad as it looks. It is.

    Are you really cool with DHS saying they only have 16? Well hell it must be true if said government agency told us so. Sure they aren’t lying, they have been using those 16 for years. There probably isn’t any more in the process of being refitted. And if there is its not near that number.

    After everything that has happened and the number of times we are outright lied to on a daily basis and your taking DHS word on this? Yeah and Benghazi was started from a YouTube video. I could go on but whats the point.

    Are you going to take the blue pill or the red pill Robert?

    Ok more obligatory model links please. Keep up the good work.

  27. avatarthe last Marine out says:

    And HOW do they have money for TANKS (any amount) What cuts?????, and as i said we have a government of lies, for lies , and lie about everything always , WHAT A pack of dirty, dirty RATS they are …. in fact real rats only want food , the D. C. rats want ALL your Bill of Rights… not just 2A , DRONES are a all out attack on your 4A rights … WAKE UP AMERICA !!! they hate the American way and people ……………WAKE UP ………DRONES are for killing you ,,, You … WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!

    • avatarneiowa says:

      DOD surplus equipment is transfered at no cost to the receiving gov’t org. No budget implications other than remodel. What is surplus? Whatever DRMS is told is surplus by _____.

      Right now Army is getting rid of all trucks predating the LMTV/FMTV (or pre 9/11). In the past rebuild and park in depot. Obummer is surplusing them as he shut downs the military. ALL M900 series 5t, M915, many HET are going somewhere. All the M35 series are already gone. Moronic. Next war arrives and we will need a 3 yr time out so we can build trucks. 1941 again.

  28. avatarNat says:

    So, and I’m just trying to wrap my head around this, you can justify the costs of procuring and operation mine resistant vehicle to execute warrants… but then they didn’t hold enough operators (bit scary to hear domestic law enforcement referred to in such a way, but I’ll skip that for now)- it’s doesn’t hold enough and doesn’t let them out fast enough, so you mount skids on the outside.

    How much did this all cost?

  29. avatarSoccerchainsaw says:

    Interesting discussions.

    Also, good that we strive to be correct and accurate in all we do.

    Also, amazing how easy it is for human beings to argue about the most mundane things.

    Keep up the good work.

  30. avatarStephen Rivera says:

    Am I the only person who thinks words like “Operator” shouldn’t be used for law enforcement?
    (Unless of course, you’re answer and direct phone calls at your local police station. Then the term is simply descriptive.)

    • avatarneiowa says:

      Right you are. And get rid of those punkass shades when you’re talking to me private. Everybody wants to be Johnnie Rambo.

      • avatarDisThunder says:

        Except, you know, Johhnie Rambo. Whut are you gonna, uh, fight uh f***in army? Nobody needs that.

    • avatarRob says:

      I zeroed in on “operator” as well. I do not like this militarization of police functions.

  31. avatarthe last Marine out says:

    DOD says when we leave Afghanistan(2014) $ many Billions of tons of military gear will be left or destroyed as will cost too much to bring home (same as we did in Vietnam) arm the bad guys for our next war… what does this have to say about Homeland insecurity … you best bet they will get tons of weapons to kill Americans with… that’s why all the 2A attacks …. Come on guys …. you tell me you can see this is all a master plan for the NEW WORLD ORDER !!!!!!!! and as there is no money problems in Amerika …they are SPENDING billions and billions as waste … they only bad guys live in Wash. D.C. ……….. wake up… this is just like pre-WW2 Japan and Germany …. You can see all the same old plans…….

  32. avatarTed says:

    And this is why RPG-7s should be in the hands of the population.

    Sure, you could roll into town with an MRAP, but 3000 degree molten copper propelled by a shaped charge would slice right through this thing.

    Using these things to serve warrants domestically is WAY overkill. To think that these things would last in an all out civil war is silly. A few crates of smuggled RPGs would neutralize these MRAPs pretty quick.

    Domestically, these things are toys for over-funded law enforcement groups.

    -ted

    • avatarcbpelto says:

      Who needs an RPG?

      A thermite grenade on top of the crew compartment will do just fine.

      You can learn how to make them on YouTube.

      • avatarM. Simon says:

        Cocktails are easier. The bottle should only be 2/3s full. They break easier that way.

        • avatarcbpelto says:

          TO: M. Simon
          RE: Coctails….Again

          Molotovs will not be as effective against MRAPs as you might think.

          The key point is that because the grill work to the engine compartment is front-mounted, it’s hard to distribute the ‘cocktail’ by merely throwing it.

          You’d need a ‘flame thrower’ to get into the engine.

          Additionally, I suspect the MRAP is already configured to withstand a molotove cocktail.

          However, I doubt if they are configured to withstand a thermite grenade laid upon the crew compartment.

          You can learn how to make a thermite grenade at YouTube.

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [Be Prepared....the 'fun' is about to begin....]

      • avatarGA Patriot says:

        Immobilize it. Blind it. Burn it. No Problem.

  33. avatarAlan Rose says:

    Semi off topic: Virtually every Federal LEO should be rolled into one agency to minimize supervisory and administrative costs, mission creep, and to facilitate intelligence flow and cooperation. Hopefully such a move would elevate the overall professionalism and standards of certain LEOs (BATFE).

  34. avatarAllpowerfulWozz says:

    Are we supposed to believe the economy is improving, the jobless rates are down, we’re winning the war against terror, we don’t need ar-15′s with 30 round mags, women can protect themselves from rape by telling the men not to do it, tea party patriots are potential terrorists, etc. etc. etc! Because gubment officials have told us those things too!! Just saying…

  35. avatarLonnie Payne says:

    If these vechicles are so efective then why arn’t they being used for Border security insted of raiding a Gun dealer and confiscation of all of his weapons and never charging him with any violation of the law?

  36. avataregoist says:

    I just saw a vehicle that looked a lot like that with “St. Louis County Police” on it. I’m sure it’s nothing…
    And, that reminds me of a St. Louis County budget crisis [last year, or was it the year before?]. They were going to have to sell the parks to cities, among other things. In the noise…they found a parking garage full of brand new cars, lost & forgotten for several years.

  37. avatarcbpelto says:

    TO: Robert Farago, et al.
    RE: These 2717 Armored Combat Vehicles

    According to reports, these vehicles are being purchased under a Navy contract for the purpose of equiping Marine units with them.

    All well and good.

    However, HERE is the ‘problem’.

    The Marine Corps has only three or four divisions, last time I looked.

    To equip all those, would take something like 1000 such vehicles. Give or take a couple hundred. Depending upon configuration of the unit.

    So what’s to be done with the remaining vehicles?

    Anyone know?

    I’ve seen smoke-and-mirrors practiced in the military before.

    Regards,

    Chuck(le)
    [The Truth will out.....]

      • avatarcbpelto says:

        Thanks for the info on the number of Marine divisions.

        This makes things even more ‘interesting’.

        Thinking on it further—based on your recent replies to me about the War on Drugs being a practical training exercise for militarized police—I see an ‘opportunity’ here for a classic Kristal Nacht. Or perhaps more appropriately, an American version of Saint Bart’s.

        The delivery is supposed to be completed by October 2013. This would allow for work-up training during the run-up to the 2014 Election.

        We’ll have to keep an eye out for ‘indicators’, e.g., greater vitriol on the part of the so-called ‘liberals’. More interesting incidents like Sandy Hook—where the police are not releasing any information about what weapons were actually used. Perhaps a Reichstag Fire event or two.

        • avatarcbpelto says:

          TO: M. Simon, et al.
          RE: Heh…..

          ….no sooner said than done.

          The ‘greater vitriol’ I spoke of the other day—as an indicator—that the Leftists are going to get violent is showing up already.

          According to reports the infamous Southern Poverty group—and echoed by the LA Times—is declaring all white males to be terrorists.

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [Be Prepared.....]

  38. avatartheBuckWheat says:

    While I a very concerned about the militarization of our police, one vulnerability we have nationally that this capability is justified for would be when (not if) some jihadist group attempts to attack a nuclear power facility. The security force at such facilities has limited capability to respond to an attack and that capability is based on backup force being able to travel from some distant point to arrive within a certain response timeframe.

  39. avatarHombre41 says:

    And we know this because a DHS spokesman says so, right? Right.

  40. avatarBensonhurst says:

    Hang on:
    DHS currently has 16 of these mine-resistant APC’s. They’re hand-me-downs from the Army and Marines. OK.
    They’re getting somewhere between 1700-2700 more. Still hand me downs. OK.

    What the blankety blank blank blankety BLANK do they need 2700 armored vehicles for????????????

    • avatarcbpelto says:

      TO: Bensonhurst, et al.
      RE: Hand-Me-Downs

      DHS currently has 16 of these mine-resistant APC’s. They’re hand-me-downs from the Army and Marines. OK.
      They’re getting somewhere between 1700-2700 more. Still hand me downs.
      — Bensonhurts

      Whether they’re HMDs or brand new, they’re still armored combat vehicles.

      RE: Why So Many

      What the blankety blank blank blankety BLANK do they need 2700 armored vehicles for???????????? — Bensonhurts

      Well, whether it’s 1700 or 2700, we’re talking about building up combat formations.

      This makes the DHS into an American version of Hitler’s Waffen SS (Armed State Security).

      Looks like a end-around on Posse Comitatus. After all, Obama was saying he wanted a National Security Force separate from the military, but equal in capabilities.

      Regards,

      Chuck(le)
      [Be Prepared.....]

      • avatarM. Simon says:

        Well Chuck – they have been practicing the Nazi thing on the dopers for a long time. And now that gunners are the target you object. Wouldn’t it have been easier to nip it in the bud in the first place?

        http://classicalvalues.com/2013/03/drug-nazis/

        • avatarcbpelto says:

          TO: M. Simon
          RE: Nipping ‘It’

          Wouldn’t it have been easier to nip it in the bud in the first place? — M. Simon

          Probably. But as IT was kept under cover of close raps….how were US to know?

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [Do you believe in 'conspiracy theory'?]

      • avatarM. Simon says:

        Uh. You couldn’t read the news reports? Or maybe you expected that they would confine their depredations to dopers. You probably forgot “First they came for…” BTW this may amuse you:

        http://classicalvalues.com/2013/03/endocannabinoids-the-science/

        A light touch given your field of study. Funny thing – I have been seeing that kind of information cropping up all over. Just saw it in the comments of an Irish Times article from Dec. 2012.

        Who will the SWAT teams target when doper hate no longer justifies their raids? I think we are about to get an object lesson in why hate is a deadly sin.

        • avatarcbpelto says:

          TO: M. Simon
          RE: There IS a ‘Difference’….

          ….between a police department that owns an armored car and the organization of a combat formation capable of performing military operations over an area somewhat larger than a residential house or apartment complex.

          But I’m not particularly afraid of this recent development. I’m sure many people can access the YouTube articles on how to make thermite grenades.

          Hope that helps.

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [Hunting tanks is easy and fun.]

  41. avatarJ.T. Coleman says:

    I’m sooo glad the government corrected this and shared the truth with us . Now I will be able to relax and sleep better at night..ROFLMAO !!!Yeah..for all of who trust that all you have to do is ask the government and they will give you the truth , the whole truth and nothing but the truth, I have no words to describe how stupid you are !

  42. avatarDenver says:

    Nevertheless.

    Who can I vote for that will deliver on a promise to close Department of Homeland Security?

    Save America: Re-elect no one. Ever.

    • avatarcbpelto says:

      And you think I didn’t ‘care’?

      Especially when they murdered an old man in his bed armed with an empty can of Coca-Cola? In a ‘wrong address’ DEA dynamic entry assault?

      I’m no fan of dopers. But I’m a BIG FAN of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. And they’re covered by those documents.

  43. avatarD Fraser says:

    Relatively easy to defeat with the right items, and I don’t mean weapons. I wonder if the Iraqis figured it out. However, it is an imposing piece of machinery against an unarmed, uninformed civilian population.

  44. avatarShagustus says:

    I am a military vet and I am concerned about the direction our nation is going in. Please “like” my page https://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/defunddhs?fref=ts
    De-Fund the DHS!

  45. avatarDacia says:

    Out here on the north side of Houston, TX while driving at approx. 6:30pm my husband and I saw easily over 100 military utility vehicles being transported by train. No joke even freaked my 11 year old son out

  46. avatarJason says:

    To play Devil’s advocate…

    “Homeland Security’s “new” MRAPs (a.k.a., tanks)”

    MRAPs are far from what anyone would rightly consider a tank. This kind of blatant hyperbole is utterly unnecessary and harms the overall message of the post.

    “Just because gun owners are paranoid doesn’t mean Uncle Sam is as bad as they think it is.”

    This, a thousand times this.

    “Sixteen is a lot less than 1700. But still . . . drug trafficking? Isn’t that the DEA’s deal? Or the ATF if it’s guns. Or the CIA if it’s foreign terrorists. Or is that the FBI? They do explosives too, right?”

    DEA does handle many drug cases, yes. But DHS handles a variety of cases involving drug smuggling, particularly related to those coming across the US border. Human trafficking, gun smuggling, drug trade — it’s all under the purview of ICE. Multiple agencies work together on the same type of cases.

    The CIA has no law enforcement role whatsoever, foreign or otherwise. The FBI has lots of things on its plate.

    “So the DH is out there, grabbing guns. But they only have 16 heavily armored troop vehicles with which do it. Feel better now?”

    No, I feel utterly indifferent.

    I don’t see the reason for all the fuss. Police departments have been buying military surplus vehicles and equipment for several *decades*. It’s nothing new, nor does it mean the onset of the New World Order. But apparently it’s okay when it’s the local podunk Sheriff’s Office that buys a legitimate APC with your taxpayer money. But God forbid the DHS (every overly-paranoid gun owner’s favorite punching bag) gets what are essentially up-armored trucks donated to it at no cost whatsoever.

    • avatarChuck Pelto says:

      TO: Jason
      RE: Only 16?

      Interesting report.

      What do you think DHS is doing with the rest of the 1700?

      Organizing five more divisions of Marines?

      Regards,

      Chuck(le)
      [The Truth will out....]

      P.S. At No Cost Whatsoever?

      So you think the manufacturer just gave them to DHS at ‘no cost’?

      You’ve got a very weird sense of business….

      • avatarJason says:

        What rest of the 1700? The article blatantly states that they don’t exist, unless you think they’re being hidden in some underground bunker complex. DHS has sixteen of them *nationwide*.

        The Marine comment is more pointless, overblown fear-mongering.

        “P.S. At No Cost Whatsoever?

        So you think the manufacturer just gave them to DHS at ‘no cost’?

        You’ve got a very weird sense of business….”

        Well, it really pays to read the article, you know:

        “The MRAPs were transferred to DHS from the Department of Defense, free of charge.”

        Oops. Guess you missed that one, huh?

        At the end of the day, these MRAPs are not fundamentally different from any armored truck used by local police tactical teams. Similar role, similar build, similar capability. More emphasis on IED/mine resistance, but that’s it. However, since DHS has multiple SRTs across the nation, they need to have multiple trucks so each team can have their own armored transport capability. They’re even disarmed, so it’s not like DHS is driving around with machine guns and AGLs mounted up top.

        Instead of shelling out ridiculous amounts of taxpayer money on brand new Lenco Bearcats, they instead willingly received donated military MRAPs. The MRAP fills the same role at lesser cost, is probably easier to do maintenance on, and makes sense with all the veterans that work for DHS. So I’m going to need to see more proof that this constitutes a sinister scheme by the gun-grabbing New World Order as opposed to the federal bureaucracy displaying some impressive fiscal responsibility regarding acquisitions.

        Oh, I’m sorry. Does that not fit your paranoid narrative?

      • avatarMatt in FL says:

        Hey, and I was wondering just the other day where you’d been. First comment in something like three months. Do a brief stretch in county?

  47. avatarJames Garner says:

    You need to go back and lick your calf over on this. Progress in reporting has been made. Why are there no bullets for personal use? They have bought enough to fight Iran for over 20 years and all the 30 round clips for assualt rifles! Check it out. Surly you know that the government lies-especially about this! You are a liberal are you not

  48. avatarJames Garner says:

    That is my name dummy-you think there is only one and it is not me? There is 3 maybe 4 in this town alone.

  49. avatarThor says:

    Well, isn’t that special. HS is a Gestapo, 4th Amendment violation in all they do. These militarized vehicles ought to go down to our damn southern border and keep the illegals from coming in rather than trying to arrest the people who pedal drugs here that the US Government brings in from other countries like Afghanistan. Jeez, Spokane WA has several of these (forward placement for the Feds to use at will)! I could see maybe ONE in cities of over a million but this is not a war zone, yet.

  50. avatarThor says:

    Oh, two little tidbits on these M-Wraps…

    1. There is only ONE entrance point!
    2, Sure it might be bullet proof but probably hard do drive or shoot out if the windows are hit with paint balls (turpentine base).

    They are not as invincible as they would like to think.

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