Question of the Day: What Will It Take to Wake-Up Gun Owners?

Paul Revere (courtesy lharrisgeometry.files.wordpress.com)

It would be easy to believe that the majority of American gun owners are alert to plans for civilian disarmament at the local, state and federal level; and actively working against them. Especially if you hang around these parts. Truth be told, there are millions of gun owners who are paying scant attention to the gun ban bills wending their way through various legislatures (already passed in New York). They don’t consider these bills a threat to their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. Ban assault weapons? Universal background checks? Mag cap limits? I can live with that. Better that than a total gun ban. So what’s it going to take for these centrist gun owners to realize that the S is H’ing TF? I’m thinking some kind of Ruby Ridge or WACO thing. Does it really have to come to that?

comments

  1. avatar stateisveil says:

    If gun owners partial to liberty are not awake now, haven’t joined national and state organizations now, then they will never wake up. Doesn’t matter if the feds murder 20 kids in another Waco, they’ll ignore/rationalize it. And besides, it’s March Madness!

    Sports are the downfall of the male in this country

    1. avatar Sam says:

      only if you let it be your downfall…

      1. avatar RKflorida says:

        And many have

    2. avatar pat says:

      Sadly, these are the same people who voted for Barry, thinking he would never take their liberty (firearms, and the ability to defend the 2A with).
      Many (God, I hope) have awoken with this latest power grab (going after the guns while waving the bloody childrens shirts). If your still asleep, your dead, and I have no use for you. Masterbate, play a video game, check out the latest sports scores…..not understanding that the REAL game (which really isnt) is 0-0 shootout with Liberty vs gun (freedom) grabbers a game EVERYONE will lose if the grabbers slip one thru the net.

  2. avatar Greg Camp says:

    This is the reason that we all have to get the word out. Too many people only pay attention–scant, at that–to what the six o’clock news has to say. We must make clear in blogs, on Twitter, in coversations, wherever, that the goal of gun control freaks is total disarmament.

  3. avatar OHgunner says:

    For most it will take their own door being busted in and their belongings taken…

    1. avatar William says:

      What will it take? Not sure, but a good bitch-slapping is a great start.

  4. avatar the last Marine out says:

    tanks rolling down main street… or drones attack on your house (that is why the GOV. needed you front door GPS …

  5. avatar ST says:

    It would take a mistake.

    The Disarmament Lobby has used the tried and true method of incrementalism. It works because each stage seems innocent. We’re not disarming everyone ,just the boogeymen. Since the gun laws dont explicitly say that anyones guns are being confiscated, logical warnings fall on deaf ears. No ones coming to collect my dads 30-30, so why care .

    No one perceives a threat until the process is so far gone that gun control is a social norm.By the time someone does come for that 30-30, its way too late, because then everyone considers gun ownership to be an act as socially reprobate as child molestation.

    Unless they make a mistake by overreaching with their laws, as we see in NY with the SAFE act.The frog WILL jump out of the pot if the temp dials turned up too fast.

    1. avatar Nor'Easter says:

      You’re right, the Safe Act is close to the edge. It went too far in the 7Rd rule which brings in the commonly owned and honored M1 and many classic handguns. 10 Rds is obviously the figure agreed upon by the ruling class to keep the peasants quiet for now. Why Cuomo would do this is a puzzlement because it does start waking lots of GO’s the hell up.
      The ammo registration may also be a mistake. The non-gun guy, taking-a-gun-out-once-a-year-to-go-ahuntin’ may find it intrusive to be run through the mill just for getting a box of 30-30’s or 12G bird shot. Might get blowback at the polls if not modified. We’ll see what develops.

  6. avatar Randy Drescher says:

    Chances are obummer is going to try to push a confrontation, then he can say that he is defending instead of the grabber POS he is. I think we are winning so far as only their dirty tactics gets them anything. The longer this goes on the worse it is for them. You can only push death for so long & people will, how you say, think its stupid, Randy

  7. avatar Ross says:

    Having lived in both New Zealand & Austraila and seen the push by some “gun owners” there for the types of bans being pushed here, I have come to realize that some so called gun owners simply don’t care, “I dont own THOSE type of weapons so it doesn’t effect me” crowd. It’s not until they get a knock on the door by the police who are there to take their single shot 12ga that it becomes real for them. A WACO will not wake them up as they consider any that resist as nut jobs, because we all know that the Second Amendment is all about hunting… right.

    1. avatar Nor'Easter says:

      Very perceptive, what’s really scary is the lots of the “turn-ins” were guns that weren’t banned. Did they just go for the money or is there a general weariness of dodging the various gun regs and just a desire to just get rid of it all?

      1. avatar Ross says:

        Two for the money, one for the show I believe.

  8. avatar Steve says:

    It’s going to take several Wacos and Ruby ridges actually. The actual confiscation raids must commence. and deaths due to nothing more than ownership of a magazine to occur.

    They are going to have to see people fight back. People other than themselves.

    In short, good decent people are going to die because of these ostriches.

    Now I am going to tell you that these unmotivated types, I believe, are as fully informed, and fully aware as the rest of us. We have put the word out in every venues a gun owner might trad, and many they typically do not. I reject the notion they are uninformed. This ‘stay on the porch’ bunch won’t be moved until open warfare breaks out, and even then they won’t be reliable. I want to say just write em off, but we would be incorrect if we didn’t give them every chance, right up to the tipping point, to come to understand the true nature of the fight.

    1. avatar anonymous says:

      > It’s going to take several Wacos and Ruby ridges actually.

      Some of the things I learned from David Kopel’s book No More Wacos (1997) is that

      (1) a lot of the Branch Davidians were very well educated (eg, Harvard)

      (2) half of them were black.

      Now it’s no secret that smart people are susceptible to believing stupid things or joining cults.

      But the demographics of the Branch Davidians was complete news to me. If it had been known at the time that half the people inside the compound were black, would the Donkeyrats have been so quick to embrace police brutality?

      If the Waco raid had happened a few years later, there would have been a lot of cell phones in the compund, and the federal government would not have been able to quarantine communications the way they did — at least not without disrupting the entire phone network in the area. I think the narrative would have been a lot different.

      1. avatar Publius says:

        Any Waco-style raids done today would occur under conditions of a cell-phone blackout for the area (and likely including landlines too). Keep in mind that devices jamming cell signals are used currently in the sandbox to stop IEDs being set off with cell calls.

    2. avatar anonymous says:

      > half of them were black.

      I don’t have my copy of No More Wacos with me, but according to this list of the Branch Davidians who died at Waco:

      06 were Asian
      28 were black (not “African-American”, because most were British)
      01 was Hawaiin
      06 were Mexian American
      01 was Samoan
      37 were white

  9. avatar miforest says:

    I don’t think they can be woken up. the liberl agun owners witl always voice support for us , then vote streight democrat. I have heard it for decades. ” (whatever republican is on the ticket) is SUCH an idiot, I couldn’t vote for him,” ,
    ” my union said we would all be put thrown out of work if we didn’t vote for (democrat on the ticket)” , ” I could never support anyone who doesn’t support gay marriage” . and so on , and so on , and so on.
    when it comes right down to it we can win this political fight , but we will have to do it with the people we have.

    of course I could be wrong, but 35 years of political activism since I have been old enough to vote has confirmed this to me again and again.

    I am proudly a one issue voter. You should be too, because if the left can get your vote with global warming, the they don’t give a rats butt what you think of gun control.

  10. avatar Blaxsun says:

    In 1989 Canadians experienced our own mass shooting at École Polytechnique. The resulting nationwide outcry led to magazine restrictions and “no-knock” warrants in 1991. In an effort to appease the anti-gun movement at the time, black rifle owners were thrown under the bus (our current ban list makes the AWB look like a grocery list by comparison). 4 years later they came after everyone with a national long gun registry – and came within a hair of banning all handguns and black rifles in this country. It took 17 years just to repeal the registry. We’re stuck with everything else, and this is as good as it will ever get for us. The saying “if we knew then what we know now” holds true.

    1. avatar Randy Drescher says:

      Yes, We know what they did in the UK with “reasonable restrictions” also. We are on it, like feinswine on a spent shell casing, Randy

      1. avatar Blaxsun says:

        The UK and Australia largely modeled proposed firearms legislation on what Canada had implemented and was moving towards at the time. The difference was that they went after everything at the outset to maximize public outcry.

  11. avatar jwm says:

    The “accidental” banning of pump shotguns, a traditional fudd hunting gun was a good place to start the wake up call. When guns that were used to procur meat and trophy’s by grandpa are on the banned list you will either wake up or you’re in a coma.

    1. avatar Blaxsun says:

      That’s what finally woke most of our firearms owners out of their ancient slumber – when they came after them to registry their shotguns. So I agree – I think these shotgun prohibitions should come as a massive wakeup call.

    2. avatar Ropingdown says:

      Yep. AR’s are nothin’. Go after sniper rifles (any bolt action with a scope) and brutal weapons of trench warfare (any pump action shot gun) first.

      Or a few more of those “home invaders torture kids, rape wife and husband” stories that end with “we were going to by a gun but we had to wait for a permit, and could only buy a seven round revolver anyway.”

    3. avatar Herb says:

      How ironic about the Fudds’ pump shotties that it’s been nearly a century since the Model ’97 was turned into a combat weapon so fearsome that the Germans threatened to execute any doughboy captured with one.

      Of course, capturing an American while he was busy blasting the Fritzes with his trench gun was problematic in itself.

      Anyway, if you own so much as one gun, this war’s about you. Bottom line.

  12. avatar Buuurr says:

    I am awake to what is going on all over this country in regards to gun laws and changes. But what do I do being awake? I speak out. I introduce people most every week to the life of a gun owner. They find me quite not so scary. Most want to invite me and mine to dinner. I support the NRA. We vote for issues we beleive in. We try and make guns as highly visible, yet non-threatening as possible in our community.

    What is it that you are actually thinking we should do, Robert? What do you suggest? Anyone?

    1. avatar Nor'Easter says:

      What we have to do is fight back and secure our rights. Trying to plug all the holes in the dyke won’t do it.
      1/ Stick together – support any org or individual who is on our side, Don’t let the perfect be to enemy of the good.
      2/ Demand our rights. Let’s face it , we’re no longer the vast majority so we need to use the tactics of other minorities to carve out our place in society as a “protected class”. We have the 2nd A already to build on and a SC ready to strike at this time. Go from there and sue the heck out of anybody interfering with our rights. Also demand, make noise and as much grief as possible to those making trouble for us. .
      3/ Promote any case of homeowners or carriers who save themselves or others from harm. publicize any outrage against any legal or hapless victim of the authorities – instant martyrs!

      1. avatar Herb says:

        Well….according to a previous thread on citizens not answering truthfully when asked “do you own a gun?”, it is possible to conclude that we gun owners are indeed the majority. Underground & ill organized, but still a majority.

        Only the New York Times believes that a tiny handful of OFWGs own vast arsenals consisting of all those disappearing AR-15s & 5.56 ammo.

        1. avatar Nor'Easter says:

          Hi Herb – I hope you’re right about the majority but if they’re already denying ownership it certainly doesn’t bode well.
          I’m reluctantly starting to come to the conclusion that there are an unknown number of gun owners who are simply worried for their own safety, ashamed of themselves and only waiting for the next “buy-back” to turn them in. Tempting as it is to ridicule some of the characters featured in the Times article – which is undoubtedly engineered to suit their evil purposes – we have to face the fact that a good part of it may be true. After all, our ol’ buddy Feinstein could have been listed as a gun owner for a while!
          Anyway, whether we’re still a majority or not I think we have to act as a operational minority in any case. Your point about “ill-organized” is right on. We need to pull together and we need a plan – a “Bill of Rights” for Gun Owners. The membership of the NRA should be at least 20 million. Not until we’re up to AARP numbers will we really put some fear into the politicos passing this stuff.
          Is the NRA perfect? Of coarse not, Got better ideas or people? Great, they have elections and changes but don’t kick the ball into your own goal!
          That’s why I’m advocating an emphasis on lobbying, making lots of noise and sue, sue, sue.
          Thanks for your input and looking forward to communicating again..

        2. avatar Nor'Easter says:

          Hi Herb – I hope you’re right about the majority but if they’re already denying ownership it certainly doesn’t bode well.
          I’m reluctantly starting to come to the conclusion that there are an unknown number of gun owners who are simply worried for their own safety, ashamed of themselves and only waiting for the next “buy-back” to turn them in. Tempting as it is to ridicule some of the characters featured in the Times article – which is undoubtedly engineered to suit their evil purposes – we have to face the fact that a good part of it may be true. After all, our ol’ buddy Feinstein could have been listed as a gun owner for a while!
          Anyway, whether we’re still a majority or not I think we have to act as a operational minority in any case. Your point about “ill-organized” is right on. We need to pull together and we need a plan – a “Bill of Rights” for Gun Owners. The membership of the NRA should be at least 20 million. Not until we’re up to AARP numbers will we really put some fear into the politicos passing this stuff.
          Is the NRA perfect? Of coarse not, Got better ideas or people? Great, they have elections and changes but don’t kick the ball into your own goal!
          That’s why I’m advocating an emphasis on lobbying, making lots of noise and sue, sue, sue.
          Thanks for your input and look forward to communicating again..

      2. avatar Buuurr says:

        All good ideas Nor’Easter but from the way the news reads lately it isn’t really news moreso as bias and opinion being pushed through the feed as fact. And I don’t just mean in regards to gun policy and issues. I mean everything. I’m sure you have seen the feeds that come up lately that show some issue with a government rep or even the POTUS that don’t shine the party in a pretty light disappear. And I do mean disappear, off the press site and the Net. Gone.

        Social media would be a nice way to get the word out and have some sensible discussion with friends and family but that too would soon the filtered and strained.

        The real problem with the media is that they have gone from fact finders and reporters to entertainment providers. It isn’t a viable means to get a message across if someone with money and power disagrees.

        1. avatar Nor'Easter says:

          You’re sooo right about the press in all it’s forms. They’re hard to overcome since they’re good at what they do – darnit – and hard to overcome. We do have some allies but for the most part they’re complete lapdogs of the Liberal Establishment and it’s for this reason that I emphasize the points I made – lawsuits. lobbying and acting up. Thanks for your reply.

  13. avatar Ed says:

    I say it takes the bills effects that do effect them pointing out.

    Talking with friends who don’t care for evil black guns, the current bans in Colorado did not bother them. I then point out that a black powder musket, and Biden’s double barrel were to be classified as assault weapons – they took note (thankfully, SB196 is dead for now).

    HB1229 is Colorado’s universal background bill, HB1224 is the high capacity mag bill. I point out HB1229 allows me to lend my rifle to a friend on my property, but not lend them the same rifle on their property. That HB1229 specifically allows me to lend a friend at my range a firearm, but HB1224 forbids me from lending them the magazine that goes into it. Or that HB1224 can be used to ban almost all pump action shotguns. (Both these bills are all but passed)

    Most people only get upset when rights they use are effected. To change minds point out how the bills effect them now (I find “down the road” arguments rarely work). And above all get any gun newbie down the range, otherwise the bills will never effect them.

  14. avatar chip says:

    I don’t see any gunowners waking up to fight back. Half the population is receiving some form of Govt. check/benefit…SS, VA benefits, Military retirement, TSP, whatever. The Govt. does not need to come and take our guns they just need to stop payments to those individuals until they turn in their guns. That is the reason the Govt. needs to start a registration. They dont know who to cut off till they know where the guns are! You could have 10 Waco’s back to back and still no one is gonna get off their collective asses and do anything! A movement to fight back will have to begin on a State level not an individual level.

    1. avatar Buuurr says:

      What do you suggest?

      1. avatar Silver says:

        Why do you keep asking that? DHS, is that you?

        1. avatar Buuurr says:

          I keep asking because no one seems to have a real answer. What can you do if the G-man decides to take away all our guns? I mean we are already lobbying. There are plenty of demonstrations and quite frankly listening to pro-gun vs anti-gun debates in the media is like watching old 80’s action movies… we all know how it will end and many of us simply turn it off once we have watched our favorite parts.

          Many folk here seem to be hinting at doing something – almost all of you will say ‘…cold dead hands!’ Whoooo! But really… what are you going to do about it? Let’s say all gun folk get on the wagon – wake up as is stated by the OP. 50M+ gun owners donate all their money and rally and debate and still all are told to give ‘em up.

          My question which no one has answered is:

          What are you going to do about it? Some will argue 2A and they can never take them away but then what is all the hubbub about? And if they do take them away, 2A or not. What are you going to do about it?

  15. avatar anonymous says:

    Colorado’s “background check” and “mag bans”, which will probably pass the state Senate tomorrow, are — as far as I know — still ambigious about the burden of proof, both for the purposes of criminal conviction, and return of property if not charged or convicted.

    In the case of criminal conviction, the burden will probably be on The State to prove that a gun or magazine was possessed before July 1, 2013. But that does not mean that gun owners won’t be pressed to plea-bargain.

    However, the issue of returning confiscated property has not been settled. If I’m pulled over, and have my gun confiscated, will I have to prove that I possessed it before July 1, 2013 to have it returned to me?

    This is not a minor footnote. This issue was brought up several times in the committe hearings and the Donkeyrats were very cavilier about dismissing it. If they had good intentions, it would be a simple matter to add unambiguous language in the bills stating that guns and magazines will be returned to the owner within X days if the owner is not charged nor convicted.

  16. avatar Patrick says:

    I’m not for these new bills and don’t want our guards to go down, but …

    Even with horrible new legislation, most gun functionality can still be present; a pump and a 6 rd pistol are good for home def. and CC. I’m not saying it is “enough” and the slippery slope scares me, but it is better than some countries, for now.

    Another RR/Waco would not wake up everyone, but it would many. They were big PR problems for the state. Lots of people are now likely active against disarmament because of these events.

    I’m just trying to be hop

  17. avatar Patrick says:

    I’m not for these new bills and don’t want our guards to go down, but …

    Even with horrible new legislation, most gun functionality can still be present; a pump and a 6 rd pistol are good for home def. and CC. I’m not saying it is “enough” and the slippery slope scares me, but it is better than some countries, for now.

    Another RR/Waco would not wake up everyone, but it would many. They were big PR problems for the state. Lots of people are now likely active against disarmament because of these events.

    I’m just trying to be hopeful.

  18. avatar Patrick says:

    I’m not for weapons legislation and don’t want our guards to go down, but …

    Even with more legislation, most gun functionality is still present; a pump and revolver are ok for home def. and CC. I’m not saying it is “enough” and the slippery slope scares me, but it is better than some countries… for now.

    Another RR/Waco would not wake up everyone, but many. They are big PR problems for the state. Many are now likely active against disarmament because of these events.

    I’m just trying to be hopeful.

    1. avatar Patrick says:

      Sorry. It said there was an error and did not show up. My apologies.

  19. avatar anonymous says:

    A few days ago, Reason asked “What Does It Mean When Wealth Flees Democracies for an Authoritarian City-State?

    The gist of the story is that people with money are going to places like Sinapore, which are authoritarian regimes, but with lower tax rates and financial regulations. Is the trade-off worth it? To some rich people, the answer is obviously “yes”.

    Some of the comments are intersting, too.

    * “Wealth can buy civil liberties or at least enough cover to exercise them.”

    * “If the democracy is infringing on civil liberties that you hold dear, while the authoritarian state is infringing on civil liberties you don’t care about, the authoritarian state may seem more appealing, right?”

    * “I’ve been told there is no distinction between civil and economic liberty – that they are inextricably tied together. Singapore is proof that this is not the case.”

    * “If you have an extensive enough estate, bans on chewing gum in public are irrelevant since you will be on yours or someone else’s private property most of the time.”

    * “Freedom for money attracts money. Freedom for people attracts people. So, freedom is attractive, but there are different types of freedom.”

    * “Freedom is more useful for becoming rich than it is for staying rich. So it’s not suprising that principless people back freedom when they’re earning their fortunes but then want to crack down on any potential competition once they’ve made it big.”

    * “Authoritarian countries can be wonderful for wealthy people so long as the government is reasonably corruption free and you don’t bother those in power. Russia is great if you are one of Putin’s Kleptocratura, but hell for anyone else, wealthy or not.”

    * “Depends on what you mean by ‘corruption’. If harsh unlibertarian laws can be sidestepped with a few bribes, then that corruption can be a good thing.”

    1. avatar 16V says:

      (channel your best Walter Cronkite)

      And that’s the way it is. Today…

  20. avatar Shawn says:

    Effective communication would be a good start. If you want to convince a skeptical audience that these weapons have a place in civilian hands, then don’t use Ted Nutbag to get the message across. Right now gun control advocates are trying to paint themselves as intelligent peace loving individuals who only want whats best for their fellow man. Meanwhile, the vast majority of our spokesmen and spokeswoman on are side of the table are screaming, “America!” and sounding like a bunch of idiots. If you want to win the propaganda war you have to combat emotion with logic. Perhaps, we could start a fund for a commercial on youtube that asks why people feel safe to send there children to a gun free zone, but don’t feel safe enough to put that label on their home. In essence, I propose a campaign that ask weather are problem is guns or policy, and for the love of God no politicians, flags, or eagles.

  21. avatar Crunkleross says:

    The worsening economy is on the minds of many Americans as they have to make cuts in their own spending.. unlike the .gov. A family struggling to make ends meet, however strong their support for 2A issues is, will naturally tend to focus on paying the Dr. bill. So for many it’s just a matter of priorities, it’s easy to say 2A threats should be first on the list but harder to implement when you’re worried about your job and the mortgage. I don’t know if this was on their mind when the administration set out to wreck the economy but I believe it is working.

    The key to getting those families more aware lies with females, particularly the mothers. The more who can be shown this is a civil rights issue the stronger we will become.

  22. avatar Cecil B Demented says:

    They won’t wake up. Even after they are taken away.

    You got 4M NRA members…out of 50M+ gun owners. They’re apathetic. Most don’t care about the right to bear arms. And they won’t wake up and save themselves.

    1. avatar Jamie in ND says:

      Agreed.

  23. avatar Rob says:

    What will it take? Maybe an entire family being massacred in a raid by the ATF.

    My little non-guaranteed predictions:

    Note: I’m not advocating for civil war. If one were to break out, I’ll most likely mind my own damn business and sit on a beach with a glass filled with an alcoholic beverage. and wait and see how things pan out. I’m just stating the situation right now as I see it.

    We’re now in March, 2013. By mid-late 2015, if elections at the state level don’t go the other way, and if all of those new politicians roll back most/all of these asinine laws, we’re going to see the beginnings of all-out civil war in this nation.

    There were approximately 300,000 casualties on both sides during the last civil war, which lasted 4 years. There are going to be casualties in the millions if it breaks out again, it will last for more than 4 years, and it’ll be 1000X more vicious than the last time.

    ie: We killed 1/3rd of of a million people with muzzle-loaded muskets/rifles. How many more do you think will be killed by semi-automatic AR-15s?

    If I were to put it into another term, I’d say were in the equivalent of the late 1850s or so. Everyone knows there are two different sections that are separating, and sooner or later something is bound to give.

    I made a bet with a family member that the next civil war would be over abortion. Give it a few more years, and I’m afraid that I’ll have to pay up if things don’t change…

    I don’t want to see another civil war, not at all. I have this thing about about Death, it’s not me (Shameless Spaceballs quote…).

    But the federal, and the state governments seem intent on treading upon the rattle snakes…

    There are enough people out there with the guns, ammo, and the training to start taking well-aimed shots at various government agents. After 10 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan there are a LOT of guys who have experience in combat, who love their guns, and who take “from my cold dead hands” literally.

    Just go ahead and Google “director [X]” and insert “FBI” “ATF” “CIA” “NSA” etc. etc. and you’ll find out the names of those respective people.

    http://www.atf.gov/about/executive-staff/

    And that’s just one example.

    If I, by no means a computer expert, can find out the name of a director of the ATF, someone else out there with more computer skills than I can surely find out the address of the same guy, and publish that data, for all the world to see. If not just that guy, but the names and addresses of agents in the field as well, not to mention state politicians…

    I predict we’re going to see a lot of federal agents, as well as state senators and state representatives ending up shot and killed if we don’t change course soon.

    1. avatar Patrick says:

      The Civil War was a war of independence between two geographical groups. People thought they were fighting for freedom, or for the cause.

      The conflict now building is a conflict of a state against people armed with weapons, communication, and wealth, people whose families make up the state. Every civilian casualty is the loss of a neighbor or friend of a soldier, and consequently a step backwards for state control. If the state pushes too hard, they may slide all the way back to, well, the 2nd amendment. If all citizens want full auto rifles, they can acquire them, and if the enforcers of the state decide they don’t want to massacre their fellow men, gun control will rewind to whatever extent is felt to be proper.

      If the citizens of state employment don’t mind the massacre, it would still be stupid of the state to spend the money enforcing such brutality which would vastly lower tax revenues. War mongers don’t want bodies; they want money, etc., and starting wars on your people is a bad way to get that. The state doesn’t want more Waco type incidents. They want the bad producers/followers to be quietly taken out at night.

      Good points though Rob.

      1. avatar 16V says:

        “There were approximately 300,000 casualties on both sides during the last civil war, which lasted 4 years.”

        What in the wide-wide world of sports are you talking about? Read, and use that bright lighted screen-thingy in front of you for something more than looking at cheese-pizza. Good god man…

        The US Civil War had more than 600K total dead, with over 250K of them KIAs, and over 400K wounded. That puts “casualties” at well over 1MM. And that’s a conservative number.

  24. avatar S.CROCK says:

    the hunters and liberals that own just 1 gun for whatever reason will wake up when someone comes knocking on their door and says “i am here to collect your gun(s).”

  25. avatar Nine says:

    Part of this reminds me of my Father.

    He only owns a Maverick 88 Shotgun, and is pro background checks, mag cap limits, ect

    He believes the Grabbers WILL NOT take our guns, Why? Because they say they will not take them.

    I wish he would wake up and smell the coffee, He is my father and I love and respect him, but his insistance on these things infuriates me.

  26. avatar JustLeaveLawfulGunOwnersAlone says:

    JUST IMO:

    If the wake up call only rings loud enough when an armed resistance is required, it will be too late.

    At that point you will have stood by silently while laws were passed and ratified that will make anyone raising a firearm in defense of their constitutional rights an unlawful combatant or terrorist. Making it 100% legal to kill, detain and deport you without ever seeing a court room.

    Asking if a R.R. or Waco is required, assumes defeat. If you feel that you don’t see enough people outraged against these attempts to disarm america now, you have to go on the verbal offensive now, 110%, to wake up the Americans (gun owners or not) still asleep.

    If you renewed your annual GOA/SAF/NRA membership this year, go LIFE today. Pay for your family member, friend or neighbor that was on the fence when you asked him about signing up for an annual membership. That 50-100 bucks you spend on someone else becoming a member today, will payoff 10x than any membership after the next WACO.

    IMO, membership numbers have a much bigger impact today than the $ dollars these organizations need to overturn any laws after they pass. Sign up 50 new members now, instead of donating $1000 next year.

    Don’t care about all the methods of the NRA employed in the past, consider that they are constantly in the media because politicians and MSM consider them a threat to their agendas. They have the track record to ruin someones political career. That is the pressure we need, now. I don’t think anyone wants to choose between the NRA or another WACO as the preferred method to try and protect our rights.

    Bombard your facebook, twitter, forums, email groups with these constant attempts to undermine the building blocks of this country. Don’t come off as a lunatic, just continue to point out the endless hypocrisy and misleading information campaigns. Focus on
    the constitutional issues,
    the false information,
    the lies,
    the MSM ignoring facts,
    the stories that MSM won’t broadcast,
    the flaws in published propaganda,
    the constant inclusion of suicides in statistics,
    the attempts to silent and blackmail LEOs speaking against these laws,

    If you can’t find enough material on this site.
    I recommend heading to reddit.com
    Need daily DGU reports: http://www.reddit.com/r/dgu/

    Need info not in MSM:
    http://www.reddit.com/r/progun/
    or
    http://www.reddit.com/r/gunpolitics/

    If you lose a few facebook friends over it, so be it. If only 10% of your friends repost it, it will be worth it.
    Don’t let up.

    If you see another state than your own propose new laws, write a quick email anyway. At this point volume counts.

    Make use of
    http://www.congress.org/
    or
    http://www.ruger.com/micros/advocacy/
    or
    http://cqrcengage.com/smith-wesson/app/write-a-letter?2&engagementId=777

    The Hollywood style, successful, armed resistance against the “man” looks entertaining in video games and movies but will not happen on a grant scale while our rights are only being slowly dissolved.
    No offense but we are, as a whole, too comfortable with our 1st world lifestyle to all of the sudden choose a path of risking our family’s life on a daily basis while we are cut of from ATM’s, HVAC, facebook, MCD and comfy beds.

    If it were to be an overnight violent assault on our freedoms, alas RedDawn, American’s will rise to the occasion but everyone realizes that, so it will continue to be a slow assault. A little amendment, a little extension, a little broader interpretation……until it is too late.
    Look at history, people were not disarmed and suppressed in the same week…it was a deliberate long term process.

    Anyone not awake yet, can’t be ignored, we need to wake them up now.

    We do not want, under any circumstances, this fight for everyone’s unalienable rights to turn violent. History is quickly forgotten and often considered in a fast-forward fashion. The civil war was not over in a couple months, the civil rights movement didn’t come by a handful of casualties, or any other struggles that turned violent in our countries past. It took a very long time and lots of suffering of many individuals before we ended up at the concluding summary paragraph in our history books, noting the successful end of that struggle.

    Considering a Ruby Ridge or Wako as the required wake-up call is simply not the train of thought we should have at this point.
    We need to continue to think more proactive, preempting anything, by any means, to keep America from seeing another RR or Wako like disaster on TV.

  27. avatar Wonderbread says:

    On Waco: Watch Waco: The Rules of Engagement and the followup documentaries for some idea of just how corrupt and bloodthirsty the Federal actions there really were. The montages of the children asking (by telephone) Federal negotiators if they were there to kill them, followed by the urgent assurances of peaceful intentions, and ended by brief flashes of what happened to those kids when the tear gas turned to cyanide and then burned- those alone changed me forever in the way I viewed our government.

    Re: Unaware gun owners (willfully or not) My brother is a tool. He’s always needling; his insecurities make him at times (usually when drinking) even more of an overbearing jerk. But he’s my brother. I accepted an invite from the guy on Facebook (yes, I know having a FB account invites tool-dom. I keep it to easily catch up with far-away family in the hometown and a few friends). Sure enough, I soon found myself having to delete an inappropriate comment making fun of my wife for completing her first 1/2 marathon. The next one came when I responded to a friend on a gun-control query by citing a case reference. SuperBro said something about be sure to kill the next suspicious person, making sure to drag them inside for justification. Then to start taking Viagra and give up on the obsession with firearms.

    SuperBro is history. This is an intelligent guy speaking several languages (although out of work currently, zipping through his retirement), who considers himself not liberal or conservative, just The Smartest Guy in the Room like our Fearless One. He also owns a nice Ruger GP-101. I find many gun control proponents to be very similar to this lifelong tool.

  28. avatar RKflorida says:

    In the dim past of my life, I remember the focus was on the entire Bill of Rights. An infringement on any of the 10 was treated as a personal affront. Now we have one trick ponies. This blog is focused on the 2nd amendment, which is good. But individual liberty requires the entire Bill of Rights and various other articles of the Constitution to survive.
    I will say that the loss of freedom begins at the ballot box. It is apparent that the left or liberal politicians are the leaders of the attack against not only the 2nd amendment but other freedoms as well. This has little to do with party affiliation and more to do with the politicians worldview. For example, Sen. Feinstein is a Democrat but Mayor Bloomberg is a Republican. Both are enemies of personal liberty.
    It seems that the litmus test for acceptance into the ranks of 2nd Amendment supporters is the ownership of a gun. Many times I’ve read “I’m a liberal, but I own a gun”. I don’t know what the intent of that statement is but, if that person is actively supporting the liberal politicians, they are hurting the community of pro-gun people. Please think about the position of the politicians on the entire issue of individual liberty before you vote. (My statement loses all meaning when both candidates are against freedom, and that is happening more and more.)
    I don’t know if there is a way to get folks off their butts or not. I’m not even sure there are many people to motivate. I talk to many that are conservative in their speaking but absolutely refuse to accept that the threat against the 2nd Amendment is a threat against the entire Bill of Rights. They constantly rail against the liberals, but do nothing about it. They want a picture of themselves with a prominent political figure to hang on their wall, but I would bet a lot that that political figure could be an enemy of the Bill of Rights and it wouldn’t make a bit of difference to them as long as the politician said the right things.

  29. avatar chris says:

    I am not sure what it would take. There are definitely a ton of them out there. Who do you think is buying all those guns and ammo.

    I think people will start noticing once they start arresting the average guy.

  30. avatar Silver says:

    Nothing. The vast majority of subjects in this country are drooling, blind morons. Give them their ipads and Idol and they’re set in their self-enslaved non-lives. They follow the norm, and if the norm becomes disarmament, they’ll take it, so long a the nanny state keeps changing their diapers.

    If you look at history, more people have died protecting the governments that enslave them (USSR, China, etc) than throwing them off. After a few generations of being coddled and indoctrinated, people here are no different. There’s a reason Jefferson said God forbid we go 20 years without a revolution.

  31. avatar HiPlanesDrifter says:

    Question of the Day: What Will It Take to Wake-Up Gun Owners?

    Apparently, a stake in the heart of the 2nd Amendment. And then it will be too late – no amount of CPR will resuscitate it. Gun owners who are awake now must act – being vigilant isn’t sufficient.

  32. avatar Matt says:

    People keep forgettin an important distinction: gun owners are not necissarily gun people. Joe Biden is a gun owner, but deffinately not a gun person. Most gun iwners dont care because most of these bills exempt their 870 or Remington 700.

    1. avatar Nor'Easter says:

      Good point!

  33. avatar OldLawman says:

    Here is my suggestion: The next so-called gun owner you meet who claims he doesn’t “need” a high capacity magazine, or a semi-automatic rifle or handgun, and doesn’t shut up, punch them in the chops.
    I am so sick and tired of these asshats, I wish they would just go play golf or some other game and keep taking the government cheese like all good slaves.

    Ok, rant off. For now.

    The Second Amendment ain’t about no hunting.

    1. avatar Buuurr says:

      lol… nice. So Freedom of Speech is out the window because some lunatic gun nut disagrees with the average rifle, shotgun, and handgun owner?

      And to be honest. I don’t need a high capacity magazine. 20-30+ rounds in four or five mags is far more reliable then those 100 round jam drums.

      You gonna punch me in the face, Toughguy?

  34. avatar Dave says:

    Polls in Maryland, where gun ownership is supposedly at some 29 percent of the households, found wide support for the usual stuff, handgun permits, assault weapon ban, magazine size limits, etc. And yet, some 70 percent were against a ban on handguns.

    This means that gun owners are not the only ones that support some gun rights, including a right to self-defense with a gun. It is therefore counterproductive to only worry about what the gun owners think. One should try to reach and educate both the gun and non gun-owning voters.

  35. avatar Jim R says:

    Nothing will wake this country up. Not before it’s too late.

    We are soundly, happily asleep in our beds; ignorant of the knowledge that the house is burning down around us.

    In 5 years this is going to be a very different country.

  36. avatar Nor'Easter says:

    What indeed? Maybe a demand to “turn-in” commonly held CCW handguns or regular hunting arms. That’s why the grabbers have been so careful of crossing that line so far – this is what’s really popular in numbers to effect elections. The SxS or pump shotgun, the revolver and maybe the small auto will be the last straw. I don’t see a lot of Ruby Ridges or Waco’s, I think they’ve learned from those, simply gathering names and files. The grabbers are clever, they’re playing this carefully, state by state, tick… tick… tick…

  37. avatar Daniel says:

    “Does it really have to come to that?”

    History has repeatedly shown us that, yes, it takes a crack across the ass with a wet towel to get America’s attention on important issues anymore. They can’t be bothered to pay attention otherwise. This is the same society that makes things like Jersey Shore popular, and can’t be bothered to pay attention to their elected representatives’ voting records.

  38. avatar J Michael says:

    There may be some reason for hope if my experience is any indication. I’m politically independent, a gun owner, but did not become concerned about the disarmament movement until just this year.

    I started to educate myself. I now understand the people seeking gun control ultimately want to disarm the civilian population. I now understand the Second Amendment is about our right to self-defense, not hunting or competitive target shooting. I’ve joined the NRA. I’ve contributed to the GOA. I’ve written both my Senators. I’m not going to vote for any of the politicians who are now supporting these proposed gun controls. I won’t be voting Democratic period.

    I know many people here have done all these things and more to support the cause; but I’ve never been an activist before, I’ve never written my congressman about anything before this.

    My point is, I may have woken up late, but now I’m awake and engaged. I’m hoping other “independents” will be waking up and getting involved, too. Enough to at least hold the line.

  39. avatar Pascal says:

    Gun owners assume that all gun owners are like them and sit around reading blogs and joining groups. Many gun owners do not and dispite what is happening, are oblivious to the problem or no clue how it will impact them.

    We, gun owners, as a group do a poor job of recruiting and getting other gun owners involved at the grass roots level. We all go to the same “click” of people all the time and that number is small. I have yet to see any effort to go beyond the normal, I know two friends and it the same two friend who are always involved and are just like you.

    I do not see efforts to get other involved. As a group we tend to intravert and private. In many ways this hurts us because our number of voice does not grow.

    Look how easy it is for the touchy-feely crowd gets organized and can get their numbers up.

    We normally organize only in a crises and many times its the same people over and over again. This makes things harder.

  40. avatar Dave says:

    Everybody has their own internal trigger that signals when enough is enough, there are still many people who have not paid attention to what is going on in the last couple months. I engaged one fellow who came into the store wearing his orange camo about Feinstein’s bill, “what gun ban?” he had not heard about it.

    It really does get down to a small percentage that are aware and will be active. I don’t think it does any good to worry about the ones still sleeping at the wheel, you just keep talking and putting yourself out there.

    What comes will come in terms of people getting their eyes open. Media is a Weapon as Abbie Hoffman was fond of saying and it is a weapon we need to weild as well as we do a rifle.

    You are also a weapon, your whole being, so many gun owners are invisible and we need to be visible so that people can see the faces of gun owners and realize that these are folks that they work with, sit next to in church, that shop at the local market.

    I think there are a lot of little things that can be done, even if you just wear your blaze orange or camo out in the community its a small thing but you make yourself visible, if you talk about gun ownership with people thats another, if everyone who supports the Second amendment wore blaze orange on the same day that sends a message.

    March 23rd is the anniversary of Patrick Henrys famous Give me Liberty or Give me Death Speech. At 6PM on March 23rd blow an air horn, ring every bell, sound every horn for Liberty. Engage in a little Civil Disobedience, the important thing is to get people to engage, even if it seems like a little thing it makes it easier to take the next step and feel that you are a part of something.

    1. avatar Nor'Easter says:

      An excellent idea! May need some more time to organize and promote. How about April 19 – “Patriots Day” – Battles of Lexington and Concord. The original resisters to Civilian Disarmament? Something that will resonate with the general public and make our point exactly!

      1. avatar Dave says:

        I’ve already have memes circulating on facebook for the March 23rd date, I thought a lead time of a couple of weeks might be enough if the idea went viral. It is gaining some traction but could use more help to promote it, Facebook suspended me once last month for 15 days, I was promoting the idea of sending nuts to the white house with the message that more gun control is nuts

    2. avatar anonymous says:

      > Engage in a little Civil Disobedience

      I wrote another comment in this thread yesterday that hasn’t appeared yet, probably due to the large amount of profanity and insults. So I’ll restate my point in a slightly different manner.

      If gun ownership is a civil rights movement, everybody wants to play the part of Malcom X, with the angry talk of “defiance” and “resistance” and “by any means necessary”. But who is our

      1) Thurgood Marshall? ( maybe Alan Gura? )
      2) Rosa Parks?
      3) Martin Luther King Jr.?

      In 1955, a 42-year old black woman in Alabama had more courage than all American gun owners today put together.

      Here’s an idea for an act of Civil Disobedience: a march in Washington DC, where everybody brings a 30-round AR-15 magazines, or a similarly prohibited magazine. Remember that the Attorney General for the District has already gone on the record that prosecuting David Gregory for violating the District’s ban

      would not promote public safety…nor serve the best interest of the people“.

      Similar acts should have been held in other cities with similar bans (eg, Denver Municipal Ordnance 38-130(i) bans magazines over 20 rounds). What are the police going to do when dozens, hundreds, or thousands of people are waving around aluminum boxes with springs inside of them?

      The problem was, this should have been organized months ago. The DC decision to not prosecute David Gregory was two months ago today (January 11, 2013). As Glenn Reynolds noted about the AG’s ruling: “But you can tell how proud they are of this decision by the fact that it came out on a Friday afternoon . . . .

      Instead, the reaction of the gun rights groups has been utterly incompetent and grossly negligent.

      And for all the angry and loud talk of “defiance” and “resistance” and “fighting tyranny”, I have yet to see any defiance, resistance, or fighting of tyranny. American gun owners are the loudest bunch of cowards in world history. I’m ashamed to be one.

      1. avatar Dave says:

        There are a lot of people posting MOLON LABE all over the place, a lot of swearing, some making outright threats, none of which help the cause, especially the threats. The big groups like the NRA want money and while supporting them is fine protecting your rights takes more then writing a check or posting on a social network. not everyone can be Malcom X

        nor should they, but it doesn’t seem like all of the anger out there has moved into taking action. It doesn’t really take that many people to make a big difference either, 5 or 6 in each county actively working on projects could make a huge difference, you are talking about 20,000 people nation wide.

        There is no cohesiveness or communication between groups, hundreds have formed. There is a ton of information out there and resources but it is not well organized.

        To me organizing the information and getting the hundreds of groups out there to talk to each other are critically important.

        Personally I think that every county should have its own forum, its own facebook page, and a mechanism in place to communicate when the internet goes down and phone lines are compromised.

        I think all politics are local, a march on Washington is one thing but if there were protests in front of every Courthouse in all 3,077 counties on the same day that is going to be covered by all the local TV, Radio, and Print publications, the national Media may be slanted left and not cover fairly but its harder to be biased with people who live in the town your paper is located in. especially when they may not advertise or cancel subscriptions

        1. avatar Nor'Easter says:

          You’re more than right – all good stuff. Your point about “getting organized” is the most important. The NRA should be foremost, of coarse, but they’re not quite set up as they should be. They seem to need an “Action Committe” under the ILA-whatever that they have. Things are getting rough, it’s time to punch back

  41. avatar Nor'Easter says:

    “ashamed to be one” – don’t be – not so fast. This latest round of grabberism has taken us all by surprise and we need a little time to get organized.
    Your naming of the 3 Civil Rights people is very good. You have the Doer, the Voice and the Brains. All movements need this and I hope they pop up soon. I would nominate Justice Scalia, with all due respect to Mr Gura, Ithink both Heller and McDonald were his doing.
    Let’s not let go of the Nationwide Demo idea, I think it’s just what’s needed at this time. As I said I think the April 19 date is perfect but maybe others have better ideas. The mags in DC would have been great after Gregory’s showboating but may be too late (old news) plus I strongly believe any “civil disobedience” must be extremely peaceful and non-threatening making the doers martyrs and the arresters villains.
    1st rule of any demo. The lapdog press has one weak spot, they can’t resist pix or stories of the underdog being bullied by “the man” – so use it.
    Any such effort should be carried out in all the local communities as well as the Cities and DC. The signs and flags should be symbols of resistance and determination to remain free. Maybe some reenactors can do their bit – with muskets where legal – and delegations of Veterans to visit and lobby the various muckity mucks to lobby our cause – great visuals! Maybe a symbol – a lighthearted one like Leghorn’s Logo – and groups of women – you always get coverage for that – great stuff.
    I guess what we really need are some grizzled old veterans of the 60’s and 70’s to coach this stuff – all this is Demo 101. Examine the past you can learn a thing or two.

  42. avatar TUCO says:

    My first experence with firearms came via hunting but now things are reversed as I hunt little while owning more than “a few” firearms. When my focus was on hunting assault rifle bans & such were not things that bothered me. In fact I paid them little to no attention. I have since “seen the light” but know many hunters that feel as I was did – not caring. Little do they know that to anti gunners hunting rifles are “sniper” rifles & unless hunters start to understand this all gun owners are in trouble. Gun owners all need to be united as our enemies certainly are

  43. avatar Dave says:

    My thought was that information and resources needed to be organized by county and then by state all linked to a national jump page. That its not about controlling the state and local chapters under one banner but to facilitate networking, communication, and the organization of resources.

    There might be 10 small groups operating in one urban area all focused on different aspects of the issue and only one in a small rural county but I think they need to all be able to easily communicate and when the opportunity arises to network or support each others projects.

    The National Groups all have important roles to play but I think they try to control too much from the top down, and true grassroots efforts should come from the bottom up.

    Its like finding quotes that are vetted and correct to use in arguments, memes, or letters to the editor. There are a ton of quotes pages out there, some better than others, I would say that instead of 500 various pages that vetted quotes are organized under one special project linked to a National Jump off page.

    That would be one small thing in the scheme of things but the same idea can be used to develop sample letters to the editor, talking points, etc. Some people feel very strongly about the issue but they are more about actions than words, and writing comes hard, you don’t want to do all the work for someone but I think there are things that can be done to make it easier for people to be and to get involved,

    1. avatar Nor'Easter says:

      Hi Dave, I think all your ideas are fine but I do believe you have to “Take it to the Streets” also, as we used to say.
      The goal now is to get this going. Do you know of an Org that can do this? Or does somebody have to set it up?

      1. avatar Dave says:

        Lets see if I can reply, my computer went crazy last time, took me about 20 minutes to be able to load up the page again and my post disapeared, weird.

        In answer to your question, after things went wild the end of December I started working on the framework for organizing links to all 3,077 counties and their respective states at http://uslibertyweb.org

        After that I set up a forum with board for all 50 states at
        http://uslibertyweb.us/forum

        and after facebook suspended me last month I set up a basic social network at
        http://LibertyTree.TheBlood of Tyrants.com

        There are a lot of modules in the social platform that can be added that gives it many more options than facebook and I think it lends itself better to networking and organizing, there is even a module that allows crowdsourcing projects, so say you have a County project in New Mexico that sounds neat they could set it up, crowdsource it where folks could even drop a dollar donation from paypal, after their project is done say the details and feedback are uploaded and could be duplicated by others.

        I was on the State MADD board for a few years, and involved in the GENWEB Project, these are a couple of models for action and organizing volunteers and resources that work well and can be used in our fight as well

        Thing is it takes people to get involved and can do a little webwork. For me the idea of having even a half dozen people working on projects in their county holds a lot of potential, for example in addition to everything else can you imagine having people on the ground that can show up when something happens like Sandy Hook to video the response and post it all ?

        If something happens that is noteworthy to report it, even acts of self protection, local politics, lots of possibilities I think.

        1. avatar Nor'Easter says:

          I must say I’m very impressed by your efforts. Did you run it by yourself?
          I find it hard to believe that the NRA doesn’t have something of this type – they should start one. I’m going to get on it. Thanks again and I’ll stay on your link.

  44. avatar Dave says:

    Same with me, I don’t hunt much anymore, but I bought an AK47 in December, just because no one is going to tell me I can’t have one. You are right though, there are a lot of gun owners that don’t care because their gun is not on the list.

  45. avatar Dave says:

    Lets see if I can reply, my computer went crazy last time, took me about 20 minutes to be able to load up the page again and my post disapeared, weird.
    3rd time maybe the charm?

    In answer to your question, after things went wild the end of December I started working on the framework for organizing links to all 3,077 counties and their respective states at http://uslibertyweb.org

    After that I set up a forum with board for all 50 states at
    http://uslibertyweb.us/forum

    and after facebook suspended me last month I set up a basic social network at
    http://LibertyTree.TheBlood of Tyrants.com

    There are a lot of modules in the social platform that can be added that gives it many more options than facebook and I think it lends itself better to networking and organizing, there is even a module that allows crowdsourcing projects, so say you have a County project in New Mexico that sounds neat they could set it up, crowdsource it where folks could even drop a dollar donation from paypal, after their project is done say the details and feedback are uploaded and could be duplicated by others.

    I was on the State MADD board for a few years, and involved in the GENWEB Project, these are a couple of models for action and organizing volunteers and resources that work well and can be used in our fight as well

    Thing is it takes people to get involved and can do a little webwork. For me the idea of having even a half dozen people working on projects in their county holds a lot of potential, for example in addition to everything else can you imagine having people on the ground that can show up when something happens like Sandy Hook to video the response and post it all ?

    If something happens that is noteworthy to report it, even acts of self protection, local politics, lots of possibilities I think.

  46. avatar TZH says:

    why is Jack Black’s photo on this?

    Nacho Libre!

    sorry, can’t resist! lol

  47. avatar Dave says:

    Nor’Easter

    Thanks, Yes I’ve been working on this myself, its a great stress reliever if you know what I mean. I’ve never had difficulty getting the word out before, what we would call sharing the vision.

    Take all of the Facebook groups that are pro 2A it seems to me that it would be great if a majority of them signed on to the forum just to be able to meet and talk with each other, once that happened I would suspect that they would naturally start working together to promote projects or ideas.

    Can you imagine 3 or 400 of those pagemasters coordinating a promotion on all of their pages on the same day? OR to rally people to call, write etc if something happened?

    I was working in drug prevention during the “Just Say No” era and while that campaign did not accomplish its goals there was a tremendous amount of awareness. When you look at some of the activities around that there are some ideas that might be used here. Schools had flag raising ceremonies that were publicized well, so what if local VFW or other groups did something similar, a protest flag to fly under the stars and stripes,

    We did pledge cards to remain drug free, and local business that supported it offered a small discount when the kids showed their card.

    We printed up posters that the business could put in their window, these are small things that don’t cost a lot of money to do in a community but they garnered a lot of positive publicity and awareness. The National Media is not going to give us any positive press or publicity, it is something that we have to get locally, if you have positive press in your hometown, then when the National Media goes off on a nut about something people have another view to reconcile with it.

  48. avatar conswirloo says:

    I am, I suppose, a gun moderate, and I think there are a couple of issues here.

    First off, I’m not feeling threatened. Assault weapon bans, magazine caps, universal background checks don’t bother me. I don’t think the first two really fix any problems out there, but they don’t bother me. I keep an eye on the national level stuff, and if I see something that looks like a legitimate threat, I’ll communicate with my senators/representatives. I don’t worry about what happens in NY, as they are already fairly compromised, and seem to be happy with it.

    Second, the people that are visibly passionate and active about this turn me off. If someone starts spouting Molon Labe, I’m going to write them off. I don’t think there is a gun grab going to happen. Who is going to do it? Are they capable of it? If something like that was possible, why don’t they test run it in Afghanistan?

    I don’t see a lot of reasonable information from the pro-gun side. I see nonsense about DHS purchasing procedures, and rumours of DHS buying 2000 plus MRAP vehicles, with NO journalistic sourcing.

    The guy further up the reply list with the idea to protest with high capacity magazines is on the right track. The current faces of the pro gun movement are unappealing. I’m not getting behind Ted Nugent, hes a raving nutter, and a jerk.

  49. avatar Nor'Easter says:

    Hi Dave,

    I’m awed by your efforts. Just goes to show you that even in this mass market world of a dominating lame stream media you can still make inroads independently.

    What I am proposing is a web network of sites like the web of re enactors, baseball card collectors or whatever? It should include the NRA, GOA and SAF as well as many others. Possible? Do you need lots of money and staff to pull this off?

    TTAG already does this and God bless ’em, but what we need is an encompassing network with the parts taking different paths but pulling to the same goal.

    Although I was dragged into the world of computers and picked up enough to actually build the one I’m using now, I (and many old timers) have little knowledge or interest in social networking personally but appreciate what a force it can be. In the modern era a “network for us” is obvious.

    1. avatar Dave says:

      Nor’Easter
      it doesn’t take a lot of staff, much of what I think we should do can be done with volunteers, it doesn’t take a ton of money, I’ve done what I have out of my pocket and I’m tapped out right now.

      What I’m thinking about with the website at http://uslibertyweb.org is that it is structured similar to http://usgenweb.org/states/index.shtml

      In the genealogy group I’ve been involved with for the past 15 years now there is a National Page that is the umbrella for a myriad of projects that have a more national focus so as to avoid duplication.

      Then there are the State pages, now the states are independent but they link to and work with the National Page. Their are a number of national grassroots groups forming with State Chapters, its wonderful but they need to communicate with each other, quickly and easily

      The States coordinate projects that are state specific and coordinate information and state specific resources, doesn’t matter how many there are but there should be a common jump page with links to them all on it.

      Then there are the Counties, each one has its own coordinator that organizes information and resources that are directly of interest in their county, information and ideas flow freely through webmail lists and forums both ways.

      So in an ideal situation you might have 3,077 volunteer county coordinators, some township and city coordinators in larger areas, plus assistant coordinators, 50 state Coordinators plus all of the special projects coordinators. A special project might involve organizing and vetting quotes, another might be developing ideas for letters to editors and legislators, another to organize and put together a mail alert list to let people know where ammo can be found or who has a shipment of magazines in.

      All of the County websites are independents, they pick and choose what their project is going to do, some might want to organize and drill, others might want to focus on voter turnout so it is possible that you have multiple groups even in one county focused on different aspects of the problem, so you get to avoid the stigma that some attach to different groups. Some people don’t like the NRA, or name any other but what matters is facilitating communication, identifying resources and when it is beneficial networking on a project that is mutually beneficial.

      The trick is that everyone communicates and shares information and that there is a redundant system of communication set up.

      That is why I think every state should have its own forum like what is at http://uslibertyweb.us/forum and also every county. Then of course local back up communications such as cb radios, ham, etc for when the internet goes down, and your phones don’t work.

      The neat thing about the current technology is that all of the work that is done can be backed up, zipped, put on a cloud server for people to download and have a personal copy of all of the resources on their personal computer.

      Information should be organized similar to http://www.cyndislist.com/ and action groups should be structured similar to MADD http://www.madd.org/ read their mission and history, a lot of it applies to what we should be doing

      I could talk about this stuff all day, personally I think we are missing the boat, currently we are not only in different churches, but we are singing out of different hymn books and things need to get pulled together better.

      1. avatar Nor'Easter says:

        Hi Dave,
        Read your reply, looked over the sites you named and understand perfectly what you are trying to do. Like you said I also think “the Movement” is missing out on this. What’s frustrating is that gun people are private, keep to themselves and really don’t want anything except to be left alone and therefore are hard to mobilize – the “herding cats” analogy comes to mind – but must be tried. I think the “Gun Community” owes a lot to you for your efforts and I’ll follow you on your Liberty site.

        1. avatar Dave says:

          Herding cats sound aboout right lol

          I don’t think we have an option anymore, being left alone isn’t going to happen, you can hide your guns and ammo, but at the point where you need to do that you are at the point where you shouldn’t.

          It’s like the March 23rd ring a Bell for Liberty project, in one sense its not a big thing in terms of time, involvement or money but it really is a big thing especially if a couple million people did it across the country.

          Stand outside of Radio Stations, Politicians homes, TV stations, corners downtown, anywhere there are people. If successful it shows a degree of organization, committment, and of community.

          http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-941756

          If you really want to help post the above link to other forums and join the groups, I do what I can, but everytime I post too much on facebook I get suspended for 15 days for posting what they call irrelevant material.

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