On Dysfunctionality and Cheaper Than Dirt

By Don Curton

Growing up, my parents were very old school in that they never let us kids see them argue. I’m sure they had their moments, but maybe they just waited until my brothers and I were in school. We were taught to keep our mouths shut, to consider what we said and to respect others. I got my first taste of crazy visiting a friend’s house as a teenager. The whole gang would go over to “Bob’s” place because a) he was the only kid we knew that had his own TV in his bedroom, and b) he was the only one who had a brand spanking new Commodore 64. The rest of us had to be content to hook the old Pong console up to the family TV in the living room . . .

While there, something erupted between Bob and his mom that resulted in a screaming, yelling, crying, cussing argument the likes of which I had never seen before. I got nervous that something bad was going to happen and wanted to leave. The rest of the gang told me to relax, this shit went on all the time. Bob even paused in mid-expletive filled rant, turned to me and calmly told me not to worry, before turning back to his mom and finishing the fight.

Soon enough, it ended and Bob went back to the C64 just like it had never happened. Then his mom went into full nice mode and begin bringing in snacks, Cokes, etc. and asking if we wanted pizza later. It didn’t occur to me at the time, but Bob had all that, a nice car and got to do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted. His parents weren’t any richer than mine, they just prioritized differently.

I got another dose of crazy with my girlfriend’s family. Same basic story. Family gatherings where everything was all hugs-and-kisses right up to the until the youngest sister didn’t get her way on something. Then, holy hell, I’ve never seen anything like that in my life. I thought Bob and his mom were bad, but this beat Bob’s house nine ways to Sunday.

I left somewhere in the middle of the “I hope you all die and go to hell” phase. But the very next day, everything was all hugs-and-kisses again. Kinda like Bob, the younger sister, still living at home, had new car, new TV and the very latest in designer clothing, etc. And I know that family wasn’t near the economic level of mine. Again, just a different family dynamic.

What has this to do with Cheaper Than Dirt? I’m getting there, be patient. I see this kind of basic dysfunctionality in action at various levels of society. From the perpetually aggrieved to the selected protected classes. Any time something happens that someone doesn’t like, all you have to do is go into full crazy mode — throw the biggest temper tantrum you can — then get your way and go back to lovey dovey again. Rinse and repeat.

Someone won’t vote a certain bill into law? Accuse them of wanting to kill baby kittens and poison the atmosphere. Get the vote you want, and praise opponents for their bipartisan support. Need money? Accuse a corporation of racism, threaten boycotts and demonstrations until they make a big donation, then pose for photo ops with the CEO with big smiles all around. Once the check has cleared, of course.

So…Cheaper Than Dirt? They did something we didn’t like and we went into hardcore crazy mode. Yelling, screaming (okay, posting and re-posting). We threatened (and carried out) a boycott to show our disapproval. And guess what? They caved. They came around to our way of thinking. They “saw the light” and gave us what we wanted. They are obviously actively trying to kiss our asses (and get our business back). So now what?

Face it, dysfunctionality works. Plain and simple. I don’t like it. I hardly understand it. But it does work. The left-leaning political class has perfected it, elevated it to an art form. They get what they want, over and over. And we play around the edges and screw things up royally. We went partial dysfunctional with CTD. We got right up to the “I hope you all die and go to hell” phase, but we just don’t know how to get back to the hugs and kisses part. The real question is, do we go all-in and get to the hugs and kisses stage, or do we continue to pout and lose one more round?

Better yet, do we accept this model of operation to get our way, or do we reject it as utterly inappropriate behavior?

I’m all for the second option. I don’t feel comfortable throwing fits and I fail to see it as an adult method of solving problems. I’d rather use logic and reason to explain to others how and why we’re right. I’d rather use my “inside voice” than scream and yell. But experience has shown that this takes a poor second place to the spoiled brats screaming about their “rights.”

So forgive CTD. Go full dysfunctional, then get back to the hugs and kisses. Hell, ask for a special TTAG discount. We’ll get it. Ask for special TTAG branded gear. We’ll get that too. Let’s complete the circle and finish this dance. We may wish for logic and reason next time, but this time we went dysfunctional and we may as well accept it.

More to the point, if we don’t forgive CTD, what incentive will any company have to cater to us once they cross the line? There has to be a path back to righteousness, or else we’ll end up boycotting everyone into irrelevance. And that’s not good for our side, either.

132 Responses to On Dysfunctionality and Cheaper Than Dirt

  1. avatarJMS says:

    Why are we still talking about this? I never shopped there anyway, because their prices were always high and their shipping rates were crazy. Everything they sell can be had elsewhere for less money with equal or better service and, usually, a cleaner and easier-to-navigate website.

    CTD shouldn’t suddenly “support” RTKBA because their customers threw a fit. They should have always done it because their business is directly related to it and they should believe in what they do. They sold themselves out as much as they did their customers.

    • avatarBob says:

      Same here. Maybe they have competitive prices on things I’ve never bought, but every time I’ve gone there I’ve been presented with prices I easily found cheaper elsewhere, not counting shipping.

      There’s something about the way they so easily caved in and joined ranks with those champions of irrationality that makes it hard to start feeling forgiving.

      Sure, they made a donation, but I haven’t seen a statement where they explained in detail what happened and a genuine, detailed apology.

      Their actions make me doubt that they would have my back if it ever came to a SHTF scenario.

    • avatarSkyler says:

      Amen. Their name did not describe their prices. They advertised pretty heavily on the radio where I live, but when I went online, they almost invariably had high prices that I just couldn’t justify.

      Some may have forgiven them. I do not. I still haven’t forgiven Ruger for their Quisling behavior way back when. Nor will I.

    • avatarBLAMMO says:

      Ditto. I never bought anything from them and I see no reason to start now.

    • avatarMamba says:

      ^This.
      CTD was over-priced before the panic, showed their true-colors during, and are still in character last I looked a few minutes ago….unless you think $189.97 for a 33rd G17 mag is “cheaper than dirt”.

  2. avatarShawn says:

    There are other companies to support…like Lucky Gunner and Bulkammo. Wait, forgot they are the same company. All gun owners are getting screwed. The internet shops are raping us on shipping costs/prices. While the LGS are jacking up the prices. Who is to blame…all of those who are paranoid and purchasing everything off the shelves. Let things cool down, nothing has changed in the past 4 years. Hell, all of this started during the Reagan years. BTW, why is everyone blaming Obama when this crap has been going on for 30 years or so. Crap started when Reagan got shot and the Brady Bill. Don’t forget to blame Bush for The Patriot Act.

    • avatarLeo338 says:

      Is Obama responsible for anything? Pretty pathetic we are still talking about jobs after 5 years of a failed presidency. OH, but we didn’t realize how bad Bush messed everything up. If we pass this bill we will get back to a thriving economy again. When that fails just start back from the beginning again, Bush, Reagan etc….

      Obama is to blame for all the panic buying. Do you not listen to his speeches? You people said the same thing during the campaign. You people are dumb for stocking up, Obama will not come for your guns. Heck, Obama has passed more pro gun laws than Republican presidents. How did this thinking work out for you? I am not the one crying about shortages and prices I purchased everything I wanted when they were available right before this tyrant was re-elected.

      • avatarSteve Fitzgerald says:

        Me too, I bought like crazy back last summer and jeez am I glad. A thousand or more bucks for a 1000 rounds of 308′s? Holy you know what.
        But…we won’t win unless we organize and have a common way to contact each other all across the country.
        If 15 swat looking TSA assholes show up across the street, raiding for guns..how are we all going to know if it isn’t a drug raid? We all will be behind the curve.

        • avatarLeo338 says:

          Exactly Steve, they turned out to be the stupid ones after all, and not just because they voted for Obama. Ha!

  3. avatarDryw says:

    I’ll freely admit that I was in full-on f*ck’em mode until I read this. Not saying that will drastically change, but a salient point is a salient point… and you definitely made one Dan. What’s the incentive for a company to see the err of it’s ways if it makes no difference in the end. I suppose it boils down to the desired end result: do ‘we’ want to see it burn down, or do ‘we’ want to illicit real change?

    I think the key will be the sincerity of the change. It appears CTD had an epiphany. I honestly hope that’s the case. That’s a ‘time passing’ issue to see if they stay the course.

    • avatarAccur81 says:

      Well said. I may buy again from CTD. Accountability is good – failure to forgive is not. Besides, trust is earned and forgiveness is given. I don’t trust CTD, but I’ll consider buying from them in the future.

    • avatarGreg G says:

      How can you possibly talk about a “salient point” and “see the err (sic) of it’s ways? Mr. Zimmerman made no “salient point” at all, and CTD definitely has NOT seen the “error of it’s ways,” it’s merely seen a drastic drop in it bottom line. Some how, some way, Mr. Zimmerman has either had a sudden bout of misplaced conscience over CTD’s plight, or he is being paid to sway the gun community into “taking them back into the fold,” so to speak. Either way, I think it’s more than a little arrogant on his part to refer to the righteous anger of the gun community as “dysfunctional.” He also displays an inordinant haughtiness by thinking that he, somehow, should be the shining voice of the repentent sinner, and with his newfound zeal, promptly take us all to the woodshed for our transgressions….once again, arrogance.
      I, as I am sure most of you, made a rational, deliberate, well reasoned decision never again to deal with CTD, not only because of their obvious and fatal disdain for the 2nd Amendment, but for their bald faced actions in trying to hide their perfidy, and I surely don’t appreciate Mr. Zimmerman’s feeble attempt at chastisement by labeling countless gun rights advocates, and by extention, me, as “dysfunctional” because we choose not to deal with a traitor, and would much rather allow the poisonous CTD apple to wither on the vine.
      In closing, let me say that Mr. Zimmerman is more than entitled to his opinion, they are, after all, like assholes, everybody’s got one, and he can bloody well kiss mine. Let CTD rot.

      • avatarMatt in FL says:

        That’s a pretty fantastic story, except Mr. Zimmerman didn’t write it.

      • avatarDryw says:

        The “salient point” I referenced was DON’s (the author of the article) indicated that a boycott, if it’s intent was to effect change, does no good if same is not eventually listed. I agree in premise if the boycott’s intent is not to burn the company down… if so then there is exactly zero incentive for any company to alter it’s business practices. Assuming one cares that a company do so. Read that portion again and replace CTD with ACME. It remains food-for-thought.

        That was the only portion of the article I indicated was potentially logical to me.

        You’ll also note I indicated that only time will tell if CTD is sincere, and that the recent support is unlikely to encourage me to purchase from them again.

        I will add that I am a little perplexed by the number of “lets forgive CTD” type articles I have seen as of late. I’m not entirely certain why it matters so much that we do?

        • avatarDryw says:

          “…does no good if same is not eventually lifted”. Not ”listed”

          Didn’t catch the edit in time.

  4. avatarMerits says:

    There’s a big difference between choosing to avoid business with a company, whose policies or beliefs you disagree with, and yelling at your parents. The former is not dysfunctional.

    • avatarDr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

      BTW, when you mollify a dysfunctional person’s behaviors, you are REWARDING and STRENGTHENING those behaviors. The correct thing to do is ignore and penalize them, and if that doesn’t work, medicate them or detach yourself from them.

      There’s also the Christian mode of forgiveness: confession, followed by repentance, and _then_ forgiveness. CtD has barely confessed, I personally have not seen the necessary repentance before they’d qualify for my forgiveness. Repentance includes (but is not limited to) a full blow-by-blow confession in public that goes over the decision making process they followed for their mistaken policies, then visible and public retribution for those who made those decisions (rebuke, then dismissal), and for good faith I’d say a ‘forgiveness’ discount rolling back prices to say 10% below pre-Newtown and just selling out stock.

      Of course, they can go tell me to go f–k myself, which is fine, but that’s my threshold and what I would need to see before I felt they had truly repented and could be forgiven.

    • avatarOK S. says:

      What I say, too. If you give your business to those that threw you under the bus, you’re only taking business from those that stood by you.

      If you’re the kind of weasle that does business with these characterless hypocrites, you shouldn’t have a gun anyway.

    • avatarPulatso says:

      This. I have no obligation to CTD, regardless of my reaction. I have an obligation to my family, regardless of membership, to treat them like family. Cheaper than Dirt made a public display of caving at a time when such acts would reasonably be seen as an act of contrition for something they had no hand in, were not responsible for, and had no reason for being contrite about. Things like that give ammo to the sickos that want to paint all gun owners as responsible for a maniac’s actions. They are at best fair weather friends, willing to take our money as long as it doesn’t draw any attention to them. And I refuse to belive they were reviewing a damn thing except their purchase orders, to see if they had sold anything to the murdered mother. The Feds would have already nailed the country’s largest online firearms retailer if their policies weren’t already tighter than a duck’s orifice.

    • avatarPulatso says:

      This. I have no obligation to CTD, regardless of my reaction. I have an obligation to my family, regardless of membership, to treat them like family. Cheaper than Dirt made a public display of caving at a time when such acts would reasonably be seen as an act of contrition for something they had no hand in, were not responsible for, and had no reason for being contrite about. Things like that give ammo to the sickos that want to paint all gun owners as responsible for a maniac’s actions. They are at best fair weather friends, willing to take our money as long as it doesn’t draw any attention to them. And I refuse to belive they were reviewing a damn thing except their purchase orders, to see if they had sold anything to the murdered mother. The Feds would have already nailed the country’s largest online firearms retailer if their policies weren’t already tighter than a duck’s orifice.

  5. avatarRandy Drescher says:

    Dan, You can spend your money wherever you like, mine is not going to dirtier than dirt. Everybody on TTAG can forgive them, my money is not going to them. Randy

  6. avatarMatt in SD says:

    I’m sorry. They still have $99 Pmags. No thanks.

    • avatarAnon in CT says:

      But they have ‘em. If they were $20, they wouldn’t ever be in stock. So they’re priced such that sensible folks won’t buy them, and idiots or those who truly, desperately need them, will. If it’s really life or death, then it’s worth $100.

      I don’t like the way they calculate shipping. I’ve bought from them once, a big load of PMC ammo last October (and thank God I did), that was cheaper from them than from anywhere else, including all the BS shipping fees. So take ‘em for what they are. They royally panicked and they royally f’d up. Now they are making the moves we want them to make – $100k to the SAF will do a lot of good for gun rights.

      So move on – buy from them if the price is right and you want to, don’t otherwise.

      • avatarIn Memphis says:

        The other day buds guns had pmags IN STOCK for $50. Thats still rediculously expensive but there is NO justification for selling them for $100

  7. avatarLLARMS says:

    Or people could stand by their guns and not give them business.

    Your story just says to me, “There are very few people in this world who have the fortitude to stand behind their convictions.”

    That is how the USA got to where it is now. It is the result of a never ending cycle of compromise and towel throwing.

    - D

    • avatarSkyler says:

      Yeah, even Leghorn has tossed in the towel and agrees to new gun controls. Unbelievable.

    • avatarangryAZ says:

      +1000

      or it could be a situation where someone does something stupid CTD and get’s punished for it in such a way that the rest of the siblings never ever dare to do something anywhere near that bad……

      run them out of business let them be a stark reminder of how we feel to businesses about our constitutional rights be they first or second amendments I don’t hate them I just want to send a message about the results of attempting to sell us out….

  8. avatarJPD says:

    Never shopped there. Prices to high. Sorry, nope, they flew their true colors. Even if prices went insanely low, I will not buy from them. I am not a prostitute. I will not be bought.

    My ethics and my beliefs are not for sell.

    Do not agree with you on this one, Dan.

  9. avatarSubZ says:

    Academy chose not to change during the frenzy (except for limiting quantities). They’ve earned my loyalty. CTD chose another path (again) and my money will go elsewhere.

  10. avatarsurlycmd says:

    The business/ customer dynamic is not the same as a familial or personal dynamic. A business did something it’s customer base did not like and was informed that the customers would no longer support the company because of it. That is business economics not a tantrum.

  11. avatarSilver says:

    “I don’t feel comfortable throwing fits and I fail to see it as an adult method of solving problems.”

    This is modern America. Adulthood and maturity are irrelevant. You do realize we’re a country that voted Obama back into office a second time, right?

    “More to the point, if we don’t forgive CTD, what incentive will any company have to cater to us once they cross the line?”

    Maybe it’ll teach other companies not to cross the line in the first place. I don’t forgive catering to traitors and traitorous policies, whether it’s a company, a politician, or the guy next door. That’s not a tantrum, it’s principle.

    • avatarHarry Hopkins says:

      + 1 on this comment.

      What good will it do if the boycott is not lifted? I would submit, what good would it do IF the boycott WERE lifted? Not a bit, I’m afraid. No, the only viable option is for those who are currently boycotting CTD to do it to the bitter end. Hopefully, they will have a much scaled down operation at worst; pound sand and go completely out of business at BEST.

  12. avatarjwm says:

    Damn, pong and c64. When I was a kid you had 3-8 channels depending on where you lived and how much of an antenna you had. The channels went off the air at midnight. The games we had were played at the kitchen table. Monopoly and the like.

    But the tv and the games were only for bad weather and night. The rest of the time you were outdoors and don’t dare tell your folks you were bored. They’d find something for you to do. Usually involving a shovel or a hoe or an ax.

    And I’d have sooner stuck my hand in a wood chipper as yell at my mother. All the men in my family from grampa on down would have lined up to stomp a mud puddle in my ass and walk it dry.

    Nowadays you’d probably go to jail for back handing a sassy kid. That’s why so many of the kids are in jail now.

  13. avatarWilliam says:

    Seems like you’re trying to shame us into taking them back. They dumped on us. Doesn’t seem right to patronized them again, so soon. I don’t believe they really learned their lesson yet.

    And Shawn… if you don’t think there’s reason for paranoia, you need to pay more attention.

  14. avatarrabbi says:

    Not only have CTD pissed off the pro crowd, they continue with this:

    http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/MAG-074

    $99 pmags!

    • avatarJMS says:

      I don’t understand how they can even try to charge that. Especially following the words “our low price!” They’re down to like $35 on GunBroker. I just bought a PMAG w/ window for $25 last week on GrabAGun. $99 is insane. They ARE readily available for 1/3 of that elsewhere, including many many hundreds on GB right now that you can “buy it now.” Not to mention that CTD is going to charge you shipping ON TOP OF the $99 price!!!

    • avatarRedleg says:

      When they buy ‘em in bulk for $7.50 a pop and sell them for $99 when others are selling ‘em from $29 to $39 they’ll get no love from me.

  15. avatarPhydeaux says:

    Sorry, but spouting off on the Internet in blog post comments is not the same as a face to face shoutfest in front of others.

    CTD did some bad things. They were called on – although harsh words are just a bunch of hot air. What counts is business.

    I personally didn’t take part in the shoutfest, but I’m still not doing business with them. There are plenty of other companies willing to stand up for their customers who I feel are better deserving of my business than CTD.

  16. avatarmichael says:

    have they returned prices to normal? have they returned all the gouged money? if not, it is a load of crap. encouraging enthusiasts to boycott a company that is engaging in panic selling and attempting to fleece it’s customers is a reasonable response. a company that does this does not deserve a second chance. “More to the point”, this event provides incentive to companies to NOT cross the line. go ahead and shop there don, i won’t most of you readers won’t. i do not support overtly anti- gun businesses or actors (stallone). they do not get a second chance to fleece me.

    • avatarEvan says:

      Seriously? Returned the gouged money? Price gouging is a real part of economics and it is actually perfectly understandable in times when demand is that high. Try reading some economics stuff, you’ll learn a few things. The thing with CTD is that they have kept them that price when the price everywhere has still dropped. The bad thing is that they are still gouging, not that they ever did. And then there is the stuff about not selling assault rifles, that was pretty bad.

  17. avatarg says:

    “So forgive CTD. Go full dysfunctional, then get back to the hugs and kisses. Hell, ask for a special TTAG discount. We’ll get it. Ask for special TTAG branded gear. We’ll get that too. Let’s complete the circle and finish this dance. We may wish for logic and reason next time, but this time we went dysfunctional and we may as well accept it.”

    You make a good point… CTD got a HUGE reaction from the gun community and paid the price. Their recent moves do them credit; obviously their bottom line got hurt and they realized they had better do something quick ($100k donation to SAF) to show contrition.

    I checked their website and they’re pretty much sold out of everything I’d consider buying anyhow. But hey… if they were to offer a TTAG exclusive discount, maybe we’d all be more inclined to restore our patronage…

  18. avatargen4n9 says:

    Cheaper Than Dirt has always been nowhere near cheap. I have no idea how they have stayed in business, when just about everyone else has better prices and better service.

  19. avatarBilly says:

    This ain’t the first time CTD has done this. Probably won’t be the last. I’ll never in hell spend another dime there. Midway or OpticsPlanet gets all my business from now on.

  20. avatargloomhound says:

    Yes but I am not part of a dysfunctional family with Cheaper than Dirt.

    What we are talking about here is freedom of association and free markets. I have every right in the world to decide with whom I am going to spend my money. Also Cheaper than Dirt can decide what products they want to sell. They happened to have just made a decision to make their customers happy and it’s a win/win in that people will once again spend their money with them.

    No harm no foul.

  21. avatarTim says:

    Dan, I think you’re way off base. The exhange between TTAG readers and CTD was NOT dysfunctional. CTD made a poor business decision by taking advantage of a crisis to increase prices (aka “gouging”). TTAG readers made a concious decision not to to support CTD in their endeavors. We used the only voice available to us—the pocketbook (something CTD obviously values). They made a decision and we made a statement—nothing dysunctional about that.

    As to your point that we should go back to business as usual for what will we gain if they go under? In a nutshell, other companies will understand that while we certainly support those that are with us in our cause, there is a Rubicon which must not be crossed. As children we always pushed the envelope to know just how much our parents would put up with. Allowing CTD to continue to flounder will answer that question for other manufacturers/sellers that are wondering if they should start charging $99 for PMAGS.

    JMHO. (oh, and in case it isn’t clear, I won’t be supporting CTD anytime soon).

  22. avatarLevi says:

    It’s a lot like your girlfriend or wife sleeping with your best friend and then trying to offer up something “extra” to make up for it. You still got screwed.

    • avatarRopingdown says:

      If she offers something “extra” to make up for it, she’s just trying to achieve a ‘condonement’ on your part, so that the cheating will count for less, maybe nothing, when you file for divorce. As for the screaming wild reaction to CTD (or Bob’s at his mom, etc.) …if you don’t want something from them, screaming would be dysfunctional. If you want something from them and only screaming works, it ain’t dysfunctional. It’s a solution. Screaming when you don’t even want a result? Dysfunctional. CTD never worked for me. Midway did. OP did. I never screamed.

  23. avatarPascal says:

    To CTD — I hope your reading this. You can still FOAD!

    There is this thing called markets, and I can go and purchase where ever I want and your not it. Your prices suck, your shipping sucks and you where not straight with your customers. I vote with my dollars, and none of those dollars are for you.

    Really, it is that simple, I don’t like you, I don’t like how you do business, I don’t need to purchase from you because there are many more options. You made your bed, now lay in it — done!

  24. avatarAndy says:

    My problem with them is their entire ethos as a company, which is a bait-and-switch marketing operation. The name “Cheaper Than Dirt” embodies this very issue as they’re clearly not a discount retailer. Rather than focusing on delivering value, they prefer to sell low-quality products at high prices and capitalize on the ignorance of their customers. I don’t begrudge them their right to run their business as they see fit, but I won’t patronize a business that’s run that way.

    If this weren’t bad enough, over many years they’ve refused to sell legal items to ban states, making it clear that they had no desire to help people behind enemy lines. I’m talking about perfectly legal, uncontrolled items such as stocks and grips. This has been discussed extensively in online forums where they have participated so it’s not like they’re not aware of the issue, and yet it persists.

    I think it’s nice that they may be changing their political stance and I thank them for their small contribution to the cause, but they’re going to have to do a lot more to earn my trust. There are a lot of vendors of gun gear out there and I have no trouble finding what I want at better prices than what CTD offers.

  25. avatarKris says:

    Why are we ticked about $99 pmags? I guarantee you they’re not selling any. Pmags can easily be had for $30 or less in free states.

    I hear so many people railing against “price gougers” like they’re criminals. You know that Glock you paid $600 for at your LGS? It probably cost Glock less than $100 to produce. What about the $40,000 pickup that drops to $32,000 the second you drive it off the lot? The way capitalism works is to buy low and sell high. What’s wrong with this? The beauty of this system is that you can choose to buy or not buy and sellers can choose to sell or not sell.

    • avatarBill F says:

      Cheaper than dirt seems like it’s being run by teen-aged girls. Doing what’s popular, making a lot of noise, stamping their feet when they’re not getting what they want. And they want to come off as “Me Too!” on both side of the fight. And the gouging? If that’s how they want to run their company, who are we to question it? It’s a poor way to get and keep business though. I toss their catalogs when I get them and wouldn’t give them another thought if not for the conversation here.

  26. avatarMikeP says:

    I *was* in a forgiving mood this Sat when I wandered in there for another spam can of mil-surp Mosin ammo and a pair of 1″ scope rings. $179.99!!!!???? I walked out with a pair of scope rings, comforted by the two mil-surp spam cans I already have at home (yeah, I love shooting my Mosins … a lot). They made a $10 sale when they could have made a $110 sale. No hard feelings necessarily, just no thanks.

  27. avatarold and scarred says:

    Forgive? Never. Forget? what was i talking about??? already, IF they can be competitive in the market………….in other words…..when they are REALLY cheaper than dirt!

  28. avatarExMonk says:

    I don’t see it as “throwing fits” to express dissatisfaction with a company for shenanigans. There are too many good options for spending my money to want to deal with a company that does business the way CTD appears to have done. I say “appears” because all we’ve seen is the end result of discontinuing firearms sales, then restarting all except certain types with no explanation, and raising prices in a manner that would suggest trying to profit off market panic. No explanation from the company that I’ve seen. I’ve not seen this behavior from any other company I deal with, and those are the ones with whom I will continue to do business. I was even able to buy a pair of Colt standarad-capacity AR-15 mags from my LGS about a month ago for the same price they were selling them before everything went nuts. They could have increased the price 30-50% or even more and still moved them quickly. But they didn’t. And they certainly didn’t raise the price 400%. That’s the kind of business where I’ll spend my money. No tantrum involved.

    I don’t consider the consumers’ response toward CTD as dysfunctional at all. I think it’s just an example of the free market at work. That, to me, is about as far from dysfunctional as you can get.

    Can I ever forgive CTD and do business with them again? Possibly. But it’s going to take some time before I’m willing to give them another look. I’m not throwing any fits; I’m just making what I feel are principled and economic choices, same as many of the others that have spoken up on this issue.

  29. avatarDelmar Barry says:

    Don, Do what you want. It’s not a big deal, I know the companys that see things my way and now I know they don’t. I’m glad I know. They remind me of H&K with the .22 MP5, H&K would not build or sell to civi’s until they saw omeone else make money. I know where to spend my money.

  30. avatarBilly Wardlaw says:

    I think you are way off base here. To equate the “dysfunctional tantrum” behavior with genuine outrage to a betrayal of principle is disingenuous.

    I couldn’t care less what concessions CTD now chooses to make – I will take my business elsewhere, no fit, not tantrum. I simply choose to support other merchants with my dollar.

  31. avatarBob says:

    Call me annoying if you want, but I’m only presenting facts here.

    I understand how maddening high prices during a shortage can be, but if government schools bothered to teach basic economics, we might very well have a better situation by now with ammo and gun supplies.

    “Price gouging” is a baited term in the same way that “assault weapons” is. The most basic law of economics is supply and demand. When demand goes up dramatically, the supply can’t follow in this case. Not immediately. So it should be perceived as natural that the prices go up.

    If sellers and manufactures were more “greedy” (another B.S. term) and priced their goods to what the market would bear (like they do and did during normal times) then we’d all see ammo on the shelves. Sure, the prices would suck big time ass, but they would be selling at roughly the same pace as before because they priced them to the market.

    I’m guilty of buying some WWB 9mm at Walmart a month ago at regular price (!) not realizing how lucky I was to see it there. I’m sure it was gone within hours. Had it been priced to market no way I would have bought it because I have a full supply.

    A lot of people who don’t really need ammo have been buying simply out of fear. I feel badly for new gun buyers who have a gun and no ammo. They are the ones who would be willing to pick up a box of WWB 9mm for $40.

    In a truly free market, the higher prices would encourage and fund expansion of capacity which would itself help drive down prices. Here we have a very unnatural market disruption, that of the potential violence of the state and their arbitrary commands.

    Here is what the government does not want you to know about economics and the pricing mechanism:

    YouTube videos

    Don’t take my word for it, do your own research.

    • avatarKris says:

      EXACTLY. Do you think Magpul is employing 600 people by taking a 10% markup when they sell $13 mags to distributors? Not likely.

    • avatarJake in AK says:

      I agree in general- but what part of what CTD was alleged to have done (alleged because it didn’t happen to me, I only have hearsay evidence), was cancel back orders, or orders “in-processing” that had been paid for, and sell that product at the higher price.

      If I have 100 widgets and price them for 25 bucks, and they sell, good. If I see that the widgets are going to be in high demand, and my supply is not going to raise as fast, I raise the price. If I said I’d sell you ten widgets, and take your money, then say “sorry”- refund you, and sell those very same widgets I already agreed to sell you for more money to someone else- you’d be mad. If I said, your cash in my hands, ” ok, here is what you paid for. But, any more you buy will now be ‘x’ more dollars”, you’d be unhappy, but able to deal. After all, we have concluded our buisness, and anything further has no bearing on our past agreements.

  32. avatarTotenglocke says:

    but this time we went dysfunctional and we may as well accept it.

    I’m sorry, WHAT?!. They decided to spit in the face of their customers and turn their back on their source of income. WE didn’t go dysfunctional, they did. That’s like telling an abused girl that she went dysfunctional and to get over it because her boyfriend got mad and beat the crap out of her.

    More to the point, if we don’t forgive CTD, what incentive will any company have to cater to us once they cross the line? There has to be a path back to righteousness, or else we’ll end up boycotting everyone into irrelevance. And that’s not good for our side, either.

    Why would we want a company to cater to us if we cannot depend upon them? Would you take forgive a cheating girlfriend and just hope that they don’t do it again? It’s the same idea – if you forgive them now, you’re teaching them that they can behave badly and get away with it because you’ll say “Well…OK, but don’t do it again….please???” Part of capitalism is companies failing if they do not please their customers – it’s absurd to think that the basic laws of economics should go out the window simply because the company makes guns.

  33. avatarCarl says:

    It really amazes me that so many people here are whining about Dirt “price gouging” on stuff, yet decrying about American Freedom. Yeah, those prices are high, but that’s how the market works. If you were too dense to stock up on mags in ammo before Sandy Hook, hell, before the Election, then you deserve to pay those kinds of prices! I bought some pmags for the Dirt the Sunday after Sandy Hook for $12.99 each, I figured I could hold onto them for a couple weeks and make a hell of a profit off of them. And that’s exactly what I did. I bought them for 13, sold them for $50. People will pay those prices, and since CTD still has those pmags for $99, I bet some idiots are still buying them at that price. If they weren’t selling, then they’d have to drop the price, that’s how it works. I’ve seen products fluctuate all day on that site, just like on Gunbroker and other sites. Its their right to charge whatever the hell they want just as its your right to not buy from them. But what kind of man (or woman) sits there behind the computer and whines about it? To see the idiots that just cry and whine about how they’re price gouging is hilarious. You really think that telling them that you’re pissy because you don’t want to pay that amount is really going to change anything? Absolutely not! I might not be the biggest fan, but it sure seems like this company has been doing quite a bit to make up for suspending gun sales. Has Lucky Gunner or Midway donated $100k to the SAF? What about AimSurplus, have they said that they’re going stop selling to Government agents in states that ban guns? Nope. You can pick what’s cheap, or what’s ethical. But don’t bitch because you can’t have both. Good Article, Don, at least someone around here has some sense.

  34. avatarPCnotPC says:

    Wow. All of that just to say “the squeaky wheel gets the grease”.

  35. avatarCasey T says:

    I married into a dysfunctional family and now am separating myself from them. My advice is to not get involved with dysfunctional people. I won’t with CTD or any other company.

  36. avatarBdk NH says:

    This is the dumbest blog post to TTAG I have seen to date. To each, his own, but I am done with CTD.

  37. avatarRKflorida says:

    This is NOT a family. We are brought together by a single common interest – guns. Your analogy is flawed for several reasons. Families are forced to be together we are not. The support of the Second amendment is not a childish behavior issue, ultimately it is an issue of national and personal survival, not a decision for children.

    I haven’t even thought of that company until you brought it up. There is absolutely zero reason to consider business with them. They are not being punished like bad children, they have simply made themselves irrelevant. Anyone who feels bad for them, and wants to buy from them, certainly can, but to use this silly analogy to induce guilt shows that you haven’t grasped the situation. This is not making someone stand in a corner for bad behavior, this is a shot to the head to wake up the other companies who depend upon us for their continued existence. If the wound is fatal or not, who cares?

  38. avatartdiinva says:

    I quit on CTD because they abandoned the entire gun owning community when chips were down and not for their jacked up prices.

    What I like even less are those people who claim to support free markets and then whine like a bunch of *itchy little girls when the market works as it should in the face of panic buying.

  39. avatarMatt in FL says:

    This is not the first time I’ve seen this, but I have to comment on the number of people (four, I think? maybe five?) who have addressed their replies to Dan, despite the piece being written “By Don Curton” as indicated directly below the lead photo. It’s not just the similarities in the names; I’ve seen it happen before when the real author’s name was Jason, or Matt, or Bruce. It makes me wonder how much attention people pay, in their haste to get down here and vent their spleen, to actual text of the post, when they don’t even get the author’s name right.

  40. avatarRalph says:

    Don, you wrote a very clever post that falls short in one regard — CTD is still gouging on prices. What good is TTAG-branded gear when it’s three times more costly than it should be?

    I’ll do business with CTD when it’s prices are competitive, they make a big donation to SAF and they’ve eated a bit more sh!t. Until then, CTD can FOAD.

  41. No way.
    No how.
    Not now.
    Not ever.

    I’ll never give CTD a penny of my business, ever.

    Much better places to do business with.

  42. avatarLC Judas says:

    If it was not simply “dysfunctional” behavior then it is worth forgiving. Mercurial beliefs are not worth actual money. Ruger and Smith have made efforts and not backstepped.

    CTD went to outright gouging, cancelling orders and price hikes and use a shipping system that makes no sense. How do you have different prices for the same item in differing warehouses? Compound the costs if you have stuff in multiple warehouses? In the last seven years this policy came into effect and it already took away much of my business to them. If they don’t want to do right and act like they are the only merchant with multiple shipping points. Playing bad ball has been building. Their behavior is not episodic in nature, it is stable bullcrap.

    No forgiveness; most of us ain’t gonna and forgiving them presents the same divided front among us as not doing so. So…its a bad example, honest. Dysfunction ends, this is just another mark on an already bad record.

    • avatarAlphaGeek says:

      How do you have different prices for the same item in differing warehouses? Compound the costs if you have stuff in multiple warehouses?

      Oh, good, questions with fact based answers. Finally.

      Differing prices: if your “warehouses” are actually multiple competing drop-ship distributors, instead of being operations that you directly control, then price differentials are inevitable if you want the absolute lowest prices. If CTD used typical retail pricing, they’d price a 5-pack of slug shells at $5.99 instead of $5.32, $5.51 and $5.63.

      My theory is that CTD’s warehouse A is the only one they own and operate.

      Multi-warehouse costs:
      It costs more to ship multiple UPS boxes from multiple points of origin than it costs to ship a single box. I think many folks have gotten spoiled by the shipping deals offered by mega-operations like Amazon.

      • avatarLC Judas says:

        Be that as it may, concerning retail giants like Amazon, my question is this. Brownells, Midway, and Cabelas don’t seem to do multiple shipping origin charges. Does that mean that CTD, which already either stays at or just above market price in best case scenarios, is afforded a margin the other forementioned retailers are not? I freely admit my question is based on the retailers having multiple warehouses like CTD and there’s a chance they don’t but its unlikely. They don’t take us for repeat charges that aren’t even attempting to give a “same order” discount for shipping.

        I bought mags from them before they dried up before I had seen their last episode. The fact is they usually do have high levels of inventory but back when I would compile my wish lists I ended up buying everything elsewhere because it never happened that everything I wanted was in the same warehouse. Just never turned out this way. I know a tad bit about drop shipping but these warehouses have no categorical listing visible, not by caliber, type of equipment or anything. Shopping reveals the vaguest correlations and if they wanted to keep customers they would outline the method to the madness to make it easier to order in bulk by knowing what comes from where instead of my single 11 mag last minute purchase from what was the same place by default because it was multiples of the same item. Catalog order companies don’t do this either; I have yet to see the phenomenon repeated outside CTD. One order, one shipping quote. What gives?

        Rather, good theory. I appreciate the reply but now more questions arise…

  43. avatarbruce says:

    Thanks people, being principled can seem lonely sometimes. NO CTD for me either!

  44. avatarSteve says:

    We are at war here, and some people haven’t figured it out yet.

    CTD is your foxhole buddy that ran and left you to die in place.

    CTD is your belay man that let go of the rope and let you fall.

    CTD is the guy that let you die in a fire rather than hand you a hose.

    CTD exhibited cowardice in the face of the enemy, and metaphorically, they need to face the firing squad.
    CTD NEVER apologized for their actions, and while market pricing is one thing, what they practice is another thing entirely.Now they cynically try to recoup some street cred.
    CTD has not caved. When they are out of business, then I will proclaim that.

    • avatarBob says:

      +1

      +1

      +1

      +1

      +1

      +1

      Total cowards.

      • avatarmlk18 says:

        +100

        CTD slapped us and threw us on the floor, don’t forgive them just because they bring some flowers and tell you they are sorry. I’m sorry baby, I didn’t mean to hit you, I just get so angry, I still love you. No way. No thanks. CTD can FOAD.

  45. avatarLowne says:

    I’m not sure who Mr. Don Curton is. Obviously a good writer (it was a well written piece even if I disagree with it) and while I respect your opinion, I just can’t feature how you’d attribute the justified backlash to CTD’s practices to a “temper tantrum” by guns owners.

    I’m wondering if I looked up CTD employees if the name Don Curton would appear?

  46. avatarNazgul says:

    The issue about business practices and customer service, independent if political statements, appear to remain.

  47. avatarBlack Bear says:

    $99 for a PMag that normally costs $19. Don thinks it’s ok that CTD price gouges. Never mind the fact the the manufacturers care about consumers and have not raised prices. But Don says “hey guys, let’s forgive and forget”. I, for one, remember… There are suppliers who care about their customers and understand the value of return business. They have not raised prices. They are filling orders in a first in first out sequence. That’s who I will support. Not a company who Don supports because he is getting endorsements.
    Remember all of those screwing you now. And 2 years from now, see if they are still around. Maybe they will be, but not from my money.

  48. avatarBruce says:

    If someone has bad behavior, then pleads forgiveness and is forgiven when they start acting correctly they have learned how to behave badly, and get away with it. If they behave badly, and are punished it teaches them to not behave badly. For a company, if they behave badly and go out of business it will not teach them anything, but it will teach other companies to not behave badly.

  49. avatarGA EMT says:

    That’s the difference. Those who don’t throw fits every day mean it when we do find occasion to say those things. I recently purchased ammunition that was in stock at CTD for 75% more from a different retailer because I mean it when I say go to hell.

  50. avatarAlan says:

    I prefer to call it voting with my wallet rather than dysfunctional behavior. So they donated $100k to SAF. So what. If they had stated their intention was to donate all of the extra money they made from the start, I might have a different view. If they want my business, they need to charge competitive prices, and actual shipping costs. I have to admit even if they are cheaper, I will pay more to MidwayUSA on the same product.

  51. avatarensitu says:

    CTD is following the Obama Business Model and are reaping it’s rewards

  52. avatarAPBTFan says:

    CTD has a history of being a fair weather friend. In this last round they finally caught enough flak that they did something. What they’ve done recently is admirable and most welcome but they are banking on short memories and I don’t have one.

    It truly is dyfunctionality. It’s like some jerkoff that slaps the shit out of his girlfriend or wife then brings flowers, chocolates and copious apologies the next day. Those guys are all the same and when the storm has blown over they go right back to their shitty ways. I expect no less from CTD. If they truly supported us instead of viewing us as a cash cow they a) wouldn’t have jacked their prices in the first place and b) wouldn’t still be jacking their prices while making “nice”. It’s getting stuck in the ass with a smile.

    I’m the kind of guy that is once burned ten times shy. I’ll be more than happy to give CTD some business again if, when and after they keep supporting the shooting sports like they’ve done with their last couple moves. I’m an inveterate skeptic and to me these two “convenient” moves by CTD are definitely working for many folks. They’ll probably get back enough business that a persnickety guy like me doesn’t matter much but my pennies are earned through being able to consistently trust a company.

    MidwayUSA and Brownell’s have done nothing but impress and endear me over 25 years of my business. They never jacked prices and I really don’t care if their P-Mags are out of stock because they didn’t value a quick buck from suckers over valued customers.

  53. avatarGH from Boise says:

    Don, you have failed parenting 101. You have allowed your charge to make you take blame for an action that was meant to correct their actions. You have been manipulated into believing that you were wrong to judge them for make a childish, knee-jerk, lack-of-thought decision. By giving in to their tantrum, you are condoning that type of behavior. You must be firm with them and show them that their disregard for their customers cannot be tolerated. And with CTD being a business, you must cut them off. You must then show them that they need to use better judgement when making decisions. You do that by forgiving them in your heart, but ensuring that they make the change on their own and accept responsibility for their lack of judgement, before you can begin rewarding them for anything else (further business). Your actions would lead to issues like that poor child Honey Boo Boo. Just my $0.02.

  54. avatarPete says:

    Fool me once (2008 election) shame on them. Fool me twice shame on me. No more mulligans for them. Plenty of other good companies that stood strong during this dark time that deserve my money more than CTD.

  55. avatarstompahippie says:

    nope. not another penny. …………. ever.

  56. avatarAharon says:

    The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The Men’s Rights Movement — while disgusted with the whining tantrums, insane threats, and hysterics the radical feminist have used — has noticed that the radfems behavior (however distasteful and dishonest) has helped their movement advance. The lesson here is not that we should or can imitate their type of high drama we can however take the basic idea and modify it our way. I don’t agree with or see the author’s point about not forgiving CTD for crossing the line since other companies would then lack an incentive to change when they cross the line. I’m all for no forgiveness to motivate other companies from doing the same. If CTD ever folds then so what? We can and will continue to buy the same products sold elsewhere.

  57. avatarJavier says:

    CTD has never been cheap enough. Dick’s same crap. Midway’s got my business. But my local gun shop comes first aint a whole lot of them but they are my first choice. And when you compare the price from my local shops to CTD it’s almost the same even when you don’t add the shipping.
    Final word CTD and Dick’s not from me.

  58. avatarracer88 says:

    I don’t think the parallel works. I only get / have one family (with which to be dysfunctional).

    CTD is one of many dozens of online shooting retailers. I can tell them to FOAD after this recent set of transgressions and burn that bridge. I’ve got Midway. I’ve got Brownell’s. I’ve got Palmetto State Armory. I’ve got SG Ammo. And, so many more. I can afford to drop CTD like a bad habit and walk away.

    • avatarFlubnut says:

      +1. Practically speaking, you can’t just “leave” your family, head on down to the local mall, and pick up another set of parents and siblings. Ironically, this argument would actually apply to government entities way more than businesses. Going down that path would have at least compared apples to apples.

  59. avatarpat says:

    Have they admitted they blew it and apologized? First things first.

  60. avatarSilentSecessionist says:

    This is likely the most off-base thing I’ve ever read on TTAG that wasn’t being quoted and then torn apart.

    I am not “throwing a fit” against China when I buy American.

    I am not “throwing a fit” against entitlements and wasteful spending when i vote Libertarian.

    I am not “throwing a fit” to get my way when I go to church or pray quietly in my own home.

    I am living my life according to a set of principles and morals I hold dear. I won’t patronize a business that holds ideas I reprehensible if I can avoid it, and i give zero fucks if they know it or not. They can spend all the money they want kissing YOUR ass, or supporting the infringement of MY rights……. but it won’t be my money.

  61. avatarJoseph says:

    I have to come down on the side of those who believe that RTKBA is not a negotiable or nuanced position for any company which distributes or manufactures those “arms.”

    When the legislature of NYC wanted to limit serving sizes on soda to 16 oz Coca Cola didn’t support that, they also didn’t say well how about just limit it to 20 oz. Nor did Coca Cola say: “what a hot button issue, in deference to the emotional nature of this issue we’ll go ahead and limit our soda sales in NYC to diet soda only until this issue is resolved.”

    The reasoning is obvious, Coca Cola sells soda. If they don’t support soda wholly even in the face of localized negative public opinion then they lose money. The same is true of firearms companies or companies which facilitate the distribution of firearms.

    CTD failed to recognize that if the market for guns goes away then the market for all that tacti-cool gear and ammo that comprises the rest of thier business model goes away with it. Therefore they never should have wavered in their full and unconditional support of the Second Amendment, since it is the only thing that allows them to stay in business.

    No rational business could look at CTD’s actions and blame the customers which chose to withdraw their patronage, these rational businesses instead must take note of the demands of their chosen demo and adjust accordingly.
    That’s the message here, we have no onus to offer anyone a “road back” from a self-destructive business practice or political endorsement; put more simply “The customer is always right.”

  62. avatarOne If By Land says:

    Since the overwhelming majority seem to be advocating for continuing to withhold their business from CDT, I would like to know how many own Smith&Wesson products? Back in the Clinton-era, they sided with the devil….we reacted, and withheld business….and hurt them badly….at first opportunity, they righted themselves – “we” gun consumers didn’t hold a grudge, and now they’re a flourishing business thanks to us….this is the same scenario….CTD made a mistake, they’re repenting….and, despite their market driven prices, they are trying to make good to support our cause….we have enouh enemies already, we need all the friends we can get…CTD is seeking redemption. Give them a chance….in the meantime, lets leverage a few more $100,000 donations from them, to causes that help us…not shopping with them because their prices aren’t competitive is one thing. holding a grudge until they collapse, hurts only us, and the hard-working Americans who work for them, many of whom, I imagine are gun-owners themselves….

    • avatarHarry Hopkins says:

      -1

      Nice try, OIBL. The saying, “close, but no cigar” doesn’t even apply here, because you arent’t even close. Even if Magpul had tripled their cost to CTD of Pmags, then CTD is *still* trying to get at least double the profit margin than before. They are opportunistic to the extreme and have not “righted” themselves by a $100,000 donation. “Righting” themselves would involve the novel idea of a public apology (a “our prices were just TOO damn high … you spoke, we listened” sort of thing. But that isn’t happening and people aren’t buying it … or buying from CTD apparently. But when a company sells a GI mag for $79.95 and admits that it has some wear marks on it, I see nothing but gouging. CTD’s business model clearly is dependent upon those millions that bought guns from them – and others – that now will need ammo and magazines … and these are people that don’t know the difference. If they can survive on that business model, so be it and good for them. But those people aren’t ‘gun people’ and they aren’t sportsmen – and their purchases won’t be enough to keep CTD in the black.

      • avatarRedleg says:

        “But those people aren’t ‘gun people’ and they aren’t sportsmen – and their purchases won’t be enough to keep CTD in the black.”

        I agree with you Harry. If this hysteria ever dies down most of these recent purchasers will go back to their slumber and forget about their new guns collecting dust in the closet and then where will CTD be after alienating their long time actively shooting customers.

        While there may be great immediate profits to be milked from the “newbies,” what happens in the long term when the “newbies” passion dies and their old faithful customers who shoot regularly and have always done so have taken their business elsewhere? Where will that leave them?

  63. avatarOne If By Land says:

    Since the overwhelming majority seem to be advocating for continuing to withhold their business from CTD, I would like to know how many own Smith and Wesson products? Back in the Clinton-era, Smith and Wesson sided with the devil….we reacted, and withheld business….and hurt them badly….at first opportunity, they righted themselves – “we” gun consumers didn’t hold a grudge, and now they’re a flourishing business thanks to us….this is the same scenario….CTD made a mistake, they’re repenting….and, despite their market driven prices, they are trying to make good to support our cause….we have enouh enemies already, we need all the friends we can get…CTD is seeking redemption. Give them a chance….in the meantime, lets leverage a few more $100,000 donations from them, to causes that help us…not shopping with them because their prices aren’t competitive is one thing. holding a grudge until they collapse, hurts only us, and the hard-working Americans who work for them, many of whom, I imagine are gun-owners themselves….

    • avatarOK S. says:

      Tomkins, the British company who owned Smith & Wesson at that time, suffered severely for that decision and had to sell the company. So far, Smith & Wesson Holding, the current owner, has rigorously supported the Right To Keep And Bear Arms.

  64. avatarPaul says:

    Blow it out your ass, Mr. Don Curton. I choose to do business with those who are willing to stand up and support my Second Amendment rights, not those who cave in to liberal sob-sisters.

  65. avatarDan Oblak says:

    Am I the ONLY ONE who actually believed CTD when they said they were only *temporarily* suspending online sales? Still, Don makes a good point about consumers’ behavior — a good read. BTW, this lines right up with my opinion on “FIRE THE COACH!!!” conversations after two or three losses — are we all that infantile?

  66. avatarPaul says:

    Ok they caved under the pressure of the left. Then they cave to the presure of the consumer. So they appear to lack integrity to tke a specific stand. I don’t care to support hypocrisy. So no I will not do any business with this group.

  67. avatarMy Name Is Bob says:

    I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, if CTD keeps kicking 100K per year to SAF, we can talk forgiveness.

  68. avatarMontesa_VR says:

    I wish all you guys who think CTD is too expensive would tell me where you buy new firearms so much cheaper.

    • avatarMatt in FL says:

      My last two guns were shopped for online and in brick and mortar stores, and when push came to shove, both were bought from a LGS (two different stores). When shipping and FFL fees were factored in, none of the major online outlets could beat what I got them for locally.

      (Note: I shopped the major online stores, but I did not spend several weeks browsing GunBroker for a deal after I decided to purchase. Doing that may have ended up cheaper, but probably not a whole lot, and I wouldn’t have had my gun(s) in the interim.)

  69. avatarSammy says:

    I understand the position completely. But, what happens the next time? Character is doing something of you own volition. If some one has to be grabbed by the throat and threaten into doing the “right” thing, it kind of lessens the kudos earned for doing so.
    Sorry .

  70. avatarN.O.P.E. says:

    CTD did NOT see the “error” of their ways.. They have lost basically all respect in the customer base they rely on because they immediately engaged in shameless price gouging.

    While its true that any commodity or good will rise and fall in value for various reasons, its not explainable (“oops – we made a mistake!”) when you are taking a generic G.I. AR-15 mag (value – 10-12 bucks) and attempting to sell it for 100 bucks because of a hysteria you hope to capitalize on.
    Although It may sound hypocritical, I do not see this sort of markup as a issue for a private party selling to another private party.. because this is not a “store” that needs to maintain a customer base for repeat business, and its a person selling their own private property to others that they have stored and cared for over years.

    If some private person wants to try to sell their $350 Romanian WASR for 1200 bucks, and the private buyer wants to pay that, its a one time deal, and both the seller and buyer got what they desired out of it.
    IF YOU ARE RUNNING A COMMERCIAL BUSINESS THIS WAY, however, the buying/speculation frenzy is going to come to a end pretty quickly, and when it does you as a gouging business are going to be persona-non-grata among your niche customer base when it all comes to a end, which is what happened to CTD.

    I will NEVER buy from these guys, under any circumstances in the future. I am a private party, not a store, and I sold my own military surplus FAL mags for 25 bucks each during this buying panic, which was about what they were going for BEFORE the panic, and they were all snatched up very quickly…

    I did not need to keep a repeat customer base happy with me, and still did not attempt to gouge the desperate and irrational.. CTD DID GOUGE.. which is why they have a angry customer base that does not want (or need) to give them anymore business…

    CTD will eventually win back buyers (if it stays in business) but they way its going to have to do that is not with cheesy apologies, but with really steep discounting that makes it too attractive NOT to buy from them… In effect, they are going to have to give back the money they gouged during the panic to buyers in the form of deep discounting in order to regain any customer base.

    The customer base for firearms related stuff is a ‘niche’.. its not like Walmart style wares that almost everyone in the general population wants to go out and buy. Thus, businesses who want to sell to the customer base need one of two things-
    1) Good Will / Good Reputation
    and/or
    2) Deep Discounting that is too good to pass up.

    CTD has completely alienated its customer base and has no good will, and its only option is going to be option #2, which is going to cost it all or more than it made in the recent Gouging.. and they could have avoided that if they had not gotten greedy and turned against their own customers.

    If CTD shuts down, its not a loss. There are a lot of other and better companies doing the same thing, with the same products, who did not attempt to scr@w their customer base, and no tear will be shed for the passing of CTD.

    • avatarHarry Hopkins says:

      The ironic thing about this is, if CTD goes under, the libtard MSM will proclaim that, “The attitude of the people is changing … one of the largest firearms retailers can’t sell enough guns to stay in business,” without coming close to the real reasons it happened. If they stay in business, you’ll see, “Largest firearm retailer still selling plenty of guns,” and the spin imparted from that will be how we need to work even harder to get rid of our ‘gun mentality’ (whatever the hell that is).

      Yep – just more of the same propaganda pieces coming up, I’m afraid.

  71. avatarDon Curton says:

    Oh Holy Hell – I didn’t expect this! Some responses:

    Sorry, Dan. You didn’t deserve all the hate. Maybe next time put my name in big 28 pt font flashing neon green.

    A lot of people object to the label of dysfunctional behavior. And certainly, many of you made rational logic based decisions. But go read some of the more angry posts and see if there isn’t some hint of non-normal behavior going on. My personal favorites are posts where the author basically states that he’s never bought anything from CTD before and he plans on boycotting them in the future. Think about it.

    Many of you provide reasonable logic for not doing business with CTD. I found myself agreeing with many of the points made. My personal opinion is that some mid-level flunkie made a bad call in a panic situation (our servers are crashing with orders) and it was the wrong decision. Someone else compounded it with a cover-up. This was never an anti-2A move, just stupidity.

    Besides, one business selling or not selling guns and accessories does not impact my 2A rights. Bottom line, how’d you like to be a mid-manager who makes the wrong call and gets your boss a little visit from the ATF. We know how reasonable they are, don’t we? I’m willing to cut a little slack there. I cut no slack for the politicians who got us into this mess, however.

    For those with a lack of reading comprehension skills, I never defended price gouging or other assorted business practices. I’m referring solely to the “temporary suspension” issue. I’ve made maybe two purchases from CTD in the past 5 years, but I do enjoy reading their catalog.

    Some people were wondering who the hell I am. I neither work for nor get paid by CTD. I’ve been a supporter of gun rights since the Reagan administration. I’ve posted articles here in the past, but I’ve never been a regular contributor (too much personal stuff going on). My favorite pistol is my Ruger Blackhawk in .357, my favorite rifle is an old Savage pump action 22 RF. I own a modern sporting rifle. I enjoy my old Savage more.

    For those who complained about how terrible the article was, you read and posted a comment. You could have skipped it. Maybe you’re more interested in the subject than you let on. Just saying.

    • avatarMatt in FL says:

      Solid response, Don. It amazes me the number of people in this thread who clearly didn’t read the words you wrote, possibly in their haste to get down here and spew their opinions. It’s also amusing how many people confuse boycotting CTD over the stance they took on gun sales (boycotting an “attitude,” if you will) and refusing to spend money with them due to their high prices. That’s not a boycott, that’s just capitalism at work. How dare they set the price so high on an item they’re selling! You don’t like it, don’t buy it. I have great faith that if CTD suddenly became literally “cheaper than dirt,” the vast majority of people would suddenly see their moral outrage evaporate, at least privately. They’d probably continue to badmouth CTD in public while sending them money on the down low.

  72. avatarRedleg says:

    You know, in my opinion Don doesn’t get it. I was a long time and very active customer of CTD who had spent many thousands of dollars. They weren’t the only company I used but one of my big three including Midway and Sportsman Guide.

    Earlier in the year I had bought quite a few various mags from them for the reasonable going rate. I intended to purchase quite a few more for myself and friends as Christmas presents and I had been actively following their pricing and availability for months before Christmas. I was waiting for my next pay check to place the large order…and then Sandy Hook happened. I knew things were going to get bad immediately. I logged on to CTD the very next day and prices had already tripled. I checked all of my other usual vendors and the prices were all still normal, only CTD had raised prices. After watching another day of media hysteria I decided to take money from my savings and purchase the mags before it was too late to do so except the quantity purchased was going to have to be less now. When I logged in prices had gone up yet again and the $19 mag I wanted was now going for $59. I went to Midway instead and made my large purchase where magazine prices were still the same (just before they instituted a 2 mag limit) and determined to never do business with CTD again as they were most definitely taking advantage of and abusing their customers. They could have reasonably increased pricing without being abusive about it…yet they chose to abuse their customers instead…and they continue to do so with $99 P-Mags that they buy in bulk for $7.50 a pop. I even saw a $150 Beta Mag there the other day $2,499!!!

    Yeah, they can do whatever they want with their company and implement whatever business model that suits them however we all have the right to spend our money and voice our disgust as frequently and as vociferously as we want too. Which people here are doing. I’m sorry you take umbrage at that and can’t see that CTD truly has been abusive of its customers in this situation and CONTINUES to be abusive to their customers by selling P-Mags for $99 a pop when most others are doing so at $29 to $39. CTD sure isn’t paying more for those mags than before or if they are it is a token increase to offset Magpul’s overtime right now. Those mags used to retail for $13. The price has been increased by 762%. If you can’t see that as price gouging then I can’t help you see the light.

    We have more than enough enemies outside the 2A community, we don’t need ‘em inside it as well.

  73. Isn’t the point of a boycott that you stop boycotting once they stop doing the thing that led to the boycott in the first place?

    • avatarHarry Hopkins says:

      Genghis … maybe so, maybe not. This is sort of getting the cart before the horse, as what you are speculating of is … well, mere speculation at this point, since CTD has NOT altered their price gouging ways. Obviously, the ‘point’ of a lot of people here is to drive them out of business for repetitive bad behavior, not to simply boycott them and hurt them temporarily. I wasn’t panicky in ’08, so I had no idea that they’d done this way back when, too. It’s like we’re having a Battlestar Galactica moment – “all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.” Well, I call BS on *that* quote, because it ain’t happening from my behalf as I’m making a conscious choice to avoid enriching the pockets of panic profiteers. I couldn’t possibly care less whether or not they stay in business, but they won’t get any of mine to help them along.

      • avatarRedleg says:

        “I’m making a conscious choice to avoid enriching the pockets of panic profiteers.”

        AMEN! That was very well said. You have distilled the very heart of this entire matter down to one sentence.

  74. avatarRedleg says:

    @ GenghisQuan,

    IF they stop…but that hasn’t happened yet when selling $13 retail (NOT wholesale pricing which is less) P-Mags for $99 which is a 762% markup.

    I keep hoping they’ll stop the gouging as I used to like to do business with them and they carry a few brands of items which I really like and I haven’t found elsewhere…but not at their current prices. I’ll continue to go with substitutes from other vendors who have some integrity.

  75. avatarDerek says:

    Did you really just compare gun owners boycotting a retailer who capitulated to political correctness to sub human pieces of shit like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson threatening state agencies with protests and charges of racism if they don’t hire more black people? Dude, you are waaaay off the mark with this one.

    Voting with your wallet is not “throwing a fit”. Gun owners are not Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson.

  76. avatardouble down on 2A says:

    I don’t see what “we” did as being dysfunctional. Unless I completely misunderstood the article, your comparison was to some spoiled-brat kids who threw tantrums to get what they wanted and hadn’t necessarily earned.

    What we’re doing is saying “I don’t like the way CTD did/does business, I’m going to let others know about it, and I’m going to do business elsewhere”. The Information Age is a two-edged sword; if your business model is good, people hear about it quickly and support you, if it’s bad they hear about it quickly and don’t support you.

    I’d like to see CTD go out of business, liquidate their inventory for pennies on the dollar, and see another company (existing or startup) buy it and sell it at what they believe is the market value. If they get it wrong, oh well. If they get it right, good for them and we have another supplier. If one company goes away, another will move in to take it’s place. If one company is attempting to sell for high profits, another will come in and offer it for less. That’s the way a free market works. The companies that demonstrate consistently good business practices will reap the rewards, especially if they hit on the magic formula of price, service, ethics, etc.

  77. avatarnothankyou says:

    i apologize as this comment is slightly off target but believe has merit.
    I am recommending that we also boycott Smith & Wesson.
    Why?
    I bought the s&w 15-22 a few years ago. it is an acceptable training platform BUT S&W will not make extra magazines available. I have contactedbthem directly and they were kind enought to initialnrespond to my request for infonon available mags. Their reponse was in effect “out of stock item may be ordered and placed on backorder…”
    My volley back to them…”so if one of my two magazines fails will you support/replace/ repair it?”… “and if you replace it then in fact you are NOT out of stock”… or ” if you ARE out of stock on this critical component, then why wouldn I buy the 15-22 at all knowing that support is not available?”

    So far…no response

    I am telling all of my friends. DO NOT BUY…. NO SUPPORT FROM S&W

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