Quote of the Day: Not This Time Edition

“One of the key messages, says a White House official, is to ‘drain the drama and fear’ out of what the president is proposing. The message the president wants to send is that he’s not trying to trample on hunters and sportsmen. That’s a necessary precursor to any legislation because advocates for reform argue that the only way they will be able to build popular and political support is if they can split the NRA from its leadership. If the membership can be convinced that the president is not an ideologue trying to grab their guns, they will be less likely to believe the NRA leadership who paint him that way.” – John Dickerson, The battle against the clock on gun control [via slate.com/cbs.com]

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About Robert Farago

Robert Farago is the Publisher of The Truth About Guns (TTAG). He started the site to explore the ethics, morality, business, politics, culture, technology, practice, strategy, dangers and fun of guns.

108 Responses to Quote of the Day: Not This Time Edition

  1. avatarBill says:

    Not fooled by the not trying to take hunter’s and sportsmen’s rights/guns away statement. As we all know, that’s not what the Second is all about. Don’t let your deer rifle only friends be tricked, fooled, or otherwise lied to as well.

    • avatarIvy Mike says:

      The Second Amendment was written to prevent a Standing Army.

      Now that the Standing Army devotees have abrogated the intent of the 2A, viewing with disdain a Swiss-style citizen-soldier defense model, they’ve left only hunters and sportsmen the use of arms.

      The Leftists are only following suit.

      “What, Sir, is the use of a MILITIA? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty….” ~Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, August 17, 1789

      We need emancipated from the Right-Wingnut Militarists as much as the soft-headed Leftists.

      “The inhabitants of Switzerland emancipated themselves by the establishment of a MILITIA, which finally delivered them from the tyranny of their lords.” ~Representative Jackson, first U.S. Congress, when it met and turned to defense measures in 1791

      “A well regulated MILITIA….” ~2A

      Piss on the first part; just don’t be surprised if somebody else pisses on the latter part.

      • avatarAlphaGeek says:

        Ah, nothing like the sounds of ducks quacking in the crisp morning air. At least, that’s what I keep hearing…

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          If you think 2A supporters are a bunch of quacks, then you must have got your talking points from Rahm Emmanuel this morning, Chi-boi.

        • avatarWC says:

          Ivy Mike- You’ve said you’re against conscription. Well, the Swiss model only works when every able-bodied man is conscripted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Switzerland

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          By your weaseling, a Swiss style MILITIA only works with a Swiss flag too. Oh, it only works in Mountains. And only in German speaking people.

          But you digress into silliness because you hate the 2A’s intent was to have a MILITIA prevent a Standing Army.

          Did you ever read anything but your dishonestly truncated version of the 2A?

        • avatarWC says:

          Ivy Mike- Please pause a moment and wipe the foam from your mouth. I happen to agree with Ron Paul’s ideas on the military. http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/national-defense/

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          A 2A advocate is one who “foams at the mouth,” eh? Did you get that from your pillow talk with Chuck Schumer? What the hell are you doing in bed with him anyway?

          I do agree that Militarism is actually making the nation less safe by inviting “blowback,” as Ron Paul points out.

          One way to get rid of blowback and increase both safety and liberty would be to enforce the complete, anti-Standing-Army, 2A.

  2. avatarDavid W. says:

    o_O what NRA member doesn’t believe Obama is trying to ban their guns?

    He is ACTIVELY trying to grab guns, yet claiming hes not a gun grabber…

    • avatarSoccerchainsaw says:

      Agreed. Civilian disarmament is the goal, divide and conquer is the strategy. We need to stand strong and unified as best we can and put these “anti-human-rights” nuts in their place.

      • avatarJosef says:

        I wouldn’t call it civilian disarmament anymore. That sounds like something people would agree to. I’d stick with victim disarmament, which is more accurate.

    • avatarChaz says:

      Yes, BHO arguably is the prince of bad faith. (n.b. that’s _not_ sarcasm)

  3. avatarDerek says:

    “Divide and Conquer is a necessary precursor to any legislation because advocates for reform argue that the only way they will be able to build popular and political support is if they can split the NRA from its leadership.”

    Fixed.

    I’ve said it before and I’m sure I’ll say it again. Fudds, when they’re done with the tacticool crowd and their Evil Assault Weapons, your benign hunting rifle is going to magically turn into a High Powered Sniper Rifle and they’ll start screaming about how a “legitimate hunter” doesn’t need to shoot at 1000 yards.

    • avatarBill says:

      They will start by probably banning (at least rifles) guns that shoot a military caliber. So there goes just about every rifle bullet, save a .270

      Because any hunter worth his salt doesn’t need a .300 win mag will be their cry. So in effect there goes every bullet that starts with a .3

    • avatarThomas Paine says:

      divide and conquer exactly. I’m surprised that nobody brought up the percentage of white gun owners to black gun owners, or percentage of rural ‘redneck’ gun owners to inner city gun owners, etc, etc.

      • avatarJoke & Dagger says:

        The race stuff will come. That is being delegated to the black media elites, Sharpton, Jackson, the black MSNBC guys. The demonization of us extremist and kooky gun people is still in the early stages.

  4. avatarShire-man says:

    I’m tired of this “sportsmen” crap. Last time I checked 3-gun was a sport. For the sake of consistency then every gun grabbing politician who tries to sugar coat the tyranny should therefore be actively protecting AR’s and so-called “high capacity” magazines. After all us “sportsmen” have nothing to worry about, right?

    I keep hearing Chris Murphy trying to paint the NRA as radical. Saying the NRA of today is not my fathers NRA. If that’s true then good because my fathers NRA sold us all out with this “sportsman” crap. I wouldn’t join my fathers NRA. I did join today’s NRA.

    • avatarIvy Mike says:

      I’m tired of this “sportsmen” crap.

      Me too.

      Let’s starve the Standing Army of funding–as the Constitution calls for after a short emergency period–and get back to a “well regulated” Swiss-style citizen-soldier Militia.

      Isn’t it time we “emancipated” ourselves from the Gubmit’s main “engine of oppression?”

      “…no such engine of oppression as a standing army.” ~Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814

      • avataramagi says:

        Get a couple weekends a year to get some exercise and good shooting for free?

        Plus reduce the ridiculous frequency this country goes to war, as us regular folk would be the one rushing into the desert.

        Sounds like a good idea.

      • avatarJosef says:

        Even Switzerland is moving away from the every man a soldier ideal. We need to separate the gun rights from military/militia ideas and properly align them with self defense. Nobody is going to sympathize with a group of angry white guys who want to start their own paramilitary force. Seriously, that’s the easiest way to lose this debate. The debate is about property rights (the right to own something) and the fundamental right to self defense.

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          Even Switzerland is moving away from the every man a soldier ideal.

          Not so much.

          • “The Military of Switzerland perform the roles of Switzerland’s militia and regular army. Under the country’s militia system, professional soldiers constitute about 5 percent of military personnel…” /wiki/Military_of_Switzerland

          Just like Article 1, Section 8 calls for. “To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.”

          • “The structure of the Swiss militia system stipulates that the soldiers keep their own personal equipment, including all personally assigned weapons, at home…” /wiki/Military_of_Switzerland

          Just like the 2A calls for.

          But even if you were correct about the Swiss moving away from the citizen-soldier militia model, should we follow other nations? Australia disarmed it’s people too.

          You’re just another damn “progressive” spouting the same bullshit like the Leftists:

          “America lags behind other nations on gun control.”

          start their own paramilitary force

          False accusation. I just want the Constitution and Bill of Rights enforced in regard to defending the nation with a Militia and not a money-sucking welfare program run for Wall Street.

        • avatarJosef says:

          Ivy mike, you absolutely wrong on this. I am a Swiss. There is a large movement within Switzerland to disband the military and place further restrictions on gun ownership. Most people now see the Swiss army as costly, unnecessary and ineffectual and they really hate American gun laws almost as much as they hate Americans using them as an example to further their own political objectives. Fact.

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          “There’s a movement.” OK, thanks for the news update. Let me know when it actually “moves” anything away from a Militia national defense model.

    • avatarAlphaGeek says:

      We need a Congressional resolution recognizing 3-gun as a sport, preferably right after some major national competition. I’m 100% serious. The ATF does NOT recognize 3-gun as a legit sport.

      The GOP House members could muddy the waters for the ATF quite nicely by doing this. It would call into question the current ATF interpretation of the “sporting purposes” test for, among other things, imported shotguns.

  5. avatarSkyler says:

    So far it’s been classic. Threaten the worst possible result and after the hue and cry, then offer only what was wanted in the first place and all the protesters feel like they’ve won.

    California became expert at this. I remember going to a protest when I lived in Sacramento. The state government proposed a law, if I recall correctly, that would require any car older than about 1o to 15 years old be taken off the road. The protests were loud and even I joined in for an afternoon at the rally. Then they came out with the CARB (I think that’s what it was called) that was still the most radical car control legislation ever enacted and no one complained a peep.

    Here they’ve come out and threatened to use Feinstein’s dream legislation, but they’ll settle for some other draconian measure that they hope we will think was the best we could have gotten. At least that’s what the NRA will tell us after they boost their dues paying membership.

    • avatarIvy Mike says:

      The cheerleaders of a Standing Army have done the same thing.

      OMG, we’re going to be invaded by North Korean attack ricepaper boats! We need to spend $$Trillions$$ on the snazziest military-industrial-complex we can’t afford!

      Then when Wall Street uses the Standing Army as a Mafia enforcement arm to extract wealth from little countries that can’t defend themselves from invasion–as USMC Major General Smedley Butler said he did–there’s nary a peep from the people.

    • avatarAlphaGeek says:

      Yep. My bet is that the administration is going for magazine capacity limits and 100% NICS background checks at the federal level and leaving AWB 2.0 to the blue states.

      Ironically, this would be a revenue booster for many FFLs.

  6. avatarGregolas says:

    “Split the NRA leaders from the membership.”?
    They mean,”Split the memberships’ bodies from their brains.”

  7. avatarChris says:

    I don’t hunt. I think hunting for “sport” is wrong. And the 2nd isn’t even about my inaliable rights to own weapons. It’s a check for government telling them to keeps their hands off. The Bill Rights doesn’t exist to allow us to do anything, it exists to tell the government what it can’t do.

  8. avatarJay W. says:

    Since the President is “not trying to trample on hunters and sportsmen”, does the WH then mean it’s okay to trample on the rights of the rest of the gun owners?

    If so, I got news for the WH, most hunters and sportsmen are also very interested in personal defense and hunters & sportsmen and personal defense gun owners are not mutually exclusive groups. In fact, I believe the more likely scenario is that hunters & sportsmen are actually a subset of personal defense gun owners.

    Lastly, the WH probably assumes that hunters & sportsmen are intellectually inferior to the ilk at the WH and would never see through the current WH BS and recognize their real short term (i.e. divide and conquer) and long term (i.e. ban as many guns as possible) strategies.

    • avatarIvy Mike says:

      “Personal defense” isn’t mentioned in the Second Amendment. The “security of a free state” is.

      A country isn’t free if it has has a Standing Army, which the 2A was written to prevent.

      We need to emancipate ourselves from an onerous Standing Army, like the Swiss did, and be free of that “engine of oppression.”

      • avatarAnon in CT says:

        Moby? Concern Troll? Plain ol’ Weirdo?

        You be the judge.

        Certainly monomaniacal and tiresome.

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          Defending the 2A is tiresome to you?

          Are you psychologically projecting your angst as a concerned troll?

          What makes your smears any different than Schumer’s?

          You certainly don’t have the balls to address my well-documented position.

        • avatarJoe says:

          I’m thinking more annoying.. It’s kinda like whitenoise my brain just starts drowning it out after a while

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          Supporting the 2A is “white noise” to Obama too.

      • avatarAharon says:

        Ivy Mike,

        True. The heart of the 2A is the political right to own arms to fight back against an illegitimate government and one foreign or domestic that is threatening the people. The right to also own and use a firearm as was practiced back them for hunting and self-defense is an obvious common-sense right just like the obvious human right to eat, breathe, and sleep. Do politicians need or have the power to write it into law that people have the right to use a knife to cut up their vegetables? (sarcasm off)

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          You miss the point of the 2A.

          If the 2A was followed–meaning that there would be no Standing Army–there would be no illegitimate government, i.e., Standing Army, to fight against.

        • avatarAharon says:

          Ivy Mike,

          No, I don’t miss the point. The FF wrote in the 2A should a foreign enemy, or the US government become illegitimate, and then threaten the liberty of the people regardless of the existence of a standing army or none.

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          Without a Standing Army, what other means are there for an illegitimate government to threaten the people?

        • avatarScott Henrichs says:

          I don’t miss your point Ivy I just don’t think you are going to convince the majority of this country to stand behind it right now. Self defense is something everyone in America can relate to. Long response times by law enforcement, decreasing staffing and increasing frequency of multiple attackers invading a home are all things people understand. It is the emotion needed to win the argument. Soccer moms can relate to owning a gun that is light weight, easy to shoot, easy to reload, and contains enough rounds to stand off multiple attackers. We have the logic, now we need to add the emotion and shut down the gun banners once and for all. Removing the standing army is a good goal to aim for but right now we need to use something the general public can relate to so we can preserve our right to keep and bear arms.

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          Firearms are great for self-defense; several founders said so, several State Constitutions affirm that right.

          However, self-defense is simply not addressed in the 2A, nor was the 2A written to address self-defense.

          The Left is eating the NRAs lunch intellectually, because the NRA supports only a dishonestly truncated version of the 2A.

          It would sure catch the Leftists off-guard if the 2A was properly interpreted.

  9. avatarZealot says:

    The other side of this issue gives the NRA far too much credit as unchecked puppet masters acting on their own agenda. What antis fail to realize is that the NRA takes it stance and marching orders directly from its members, not vice versa. WE (the NRA members) are the ones who want to so vigorously defend the 2nd Amendment and there seems to be very little deviation from one end of the NRA bell curve to the other on this point. Its pretty clear though, that pigeon holing NRA members as mindless pawns of an over-reaching lobby better fits the other side’s narrative.

    • avatarIvy Mike says:

      vigorously defend the 2nd Amendment

      LOL! Since when has the NRA called for our nation’s “emancipation”[1] from a Standing Army, an “engine of oppression” as Jefferson called it, which the 2A was written to “prevent”?[2]

      No, the NRA agrees with the Leftists: only Teh Big Gubmit is competent to defend the nation.

      Now those Big Gummit Standing Army chickens are coming home to roost.

      _____________
      [1] “The inhabitants of Switzerland EMANCIPATED themselves by the establishment of a MILITIA, which finally delivered them from the tyranny of their lords.” ~Representative Jackson, first U.S. Congress, when it met and turned to defense measures in 1791

      [2] “What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to PREVENT the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty….” ~Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, August 17, 1789

      • avatarOld Ben turning in grave says:

        Perhaps there could be an expanded role for reserve/citizen soldiers, but there is more to consider. The modern military has come more and more to rely on tech, and tech has often been the key advantage for the US. If people would be dedicated enough to maintain the skills for higher tech roles (and keep up with rapidly developing tech), that would be great. However, from what I hear of Navy service for example, there are many highly specialized roles that would be difficult to stay on top of training one weekend per month.

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          The modern…

          Same argument used by the Leftists.

          Yet the Swiss are still safe, nay SAFER, than we, with their Militia, in these modern times.

          Consider that.

          Navy service

          Read the Constitution, please, just for once. “Navy” in there. The founders weren’t as stupid as you think.

        • avatarOld Ben turning in grave says:

          Oh, I’m with you very much in spirit, Mike. I’m just saying there are complexities to consider if you actually want to implement the idea. Do the Swiss have high-tech missile defense systems? Space-based platforms? A modern Navy? All these things are quite handy if you want to be an independent power in the modern world.

          Perhaps you could still draw almost all your infantry from a pool of trained citizens. Sustained tyranny in most scenarios I can imagine would require boots on the ground, and would be hard for them if those boots were on our feet.

          To tell you the truth, what concerns me even more right now is the progressives creating what would amount to a domestic army loyal to the Party. Obama openly stated that there should be an internal domestic force equal in strength to our armed forces.

          On that note, what are the Feds doing with the 1.8 billion or so rounds of ammo they have bought up recently?

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          Well, you may be right. It could be that the Founders were just fantastical dreamers, and the Constitution and 2A are too idealistic a restraint on the typically brutal character of Civilization (State Society) we’ve observed for 8,000 years.[1]

          But I still respect that the founders tried to incorporate the Egalitarian power-sharing of the Non-State tribes that many of the European settlers admired.

          Many of them so admired it, they ran away from City-Statism (Civilization) and joined the Indians. The Jamestown colony did that, as they wrote in their final note, “Gone to Croatan.” Benjamin Franklin[2] and many others wrote about how whites ran off to the Indians and loved Non-State lifeways. James Axtell calls them “White Indians.”[3] But egalitarian Non-State philosophy is difficult to fit into hierarchical State Society, perhaps impossible.

          I do admit the anti-Standing-Army intent of the 2A has never even been enforced. Hell, even the ever-self-conflicted Jefferson–a man I most often greatly admire–ended up ignoring it.

          Old Ben, the reason I came here is I’m studying the “Right” side of the Left/Right divide in America. And ironically, I’ve found there isn’t all that much of a divide at all.

          Both sides spit nails at my calling the 2A the “Egalitarian Clause.” Both sides generally despise my calls disbanding the Standing Army. They both love Big Government, just different parts of that Big Government.

          I’m inclined to sit back and just watch the show like George Carlin: “When you’re born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you’re born in America, you get a front row seat.”

          And maybe the current manifestation of City-Statism (Civilization) will collapse[4] like all the rest did, and we can once again engage in the fun of “gamboling about plain and forest hunting”[5] and gathering the proverbial FREE LUNCH once again like the “autonomous and sovereign” Non-State tribes.

          And if anybody can do that, it’s the several of my Red State neighbors and friends. “A country boy can survive.”

          __________
          [1] “Civilization originates in conquest abroad and repression at home.” ~Stanley Diamond, In Search of the Primitive: A Critique of Civilization, p. 1

          [2] “When an Indian Child has been brought up among us, taught our language and habituated to our Customs, yet if he goes to see his relations and make one Indian Ramble with them, there is no perswading him ever to return, and that this is not natural [to them] merely as Indians, but as men, is plain from this, that when white persons of either sex have been taken prisoners young by the Indians, and lived a while among them, tho’ ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness to prevail with them to stay among the English, yet in a Short time they become disgusted with our manner of life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the first good Opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them. One instance I remember to have heard, where the person was brought home to possess a good Estate; but finding some care necessary to keep it together, he relinquished it to a younger Brother, reserving to himself nothing but a gun and a match-Coat, with which he took his way again to the Wilderness.

          Though they have few but natural wants and those easily supplied. But with us are infinite Artificial wants, no less craving than those of Nature, and much more difficult to satisfy….”

          ~Benjamin Franklin, letter to Peter Collinson, May 9, 1753

          [3] James Axtell. (1975) The White Indians of Colonial America. The William and Mary Quarterly, Third Series, Vol. 32, No. 1, pp. 55-88 http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/walter.sargent/public.www/web%20200/white%20indians.pdf

          [4] Tainter, Joseph A. (1988) The Collapse of Complex Societies. Cambridge University Press.

          [5] Richard Manning. (2005) Against the Grain: How Agriculture has Hijacked Civilization. North Point Press.

        • avatarDavid says:

          Ivy Mike, I agree with you. A Swiss system is what the Founders wanted. Old Ben and others here is an excerpt from my 1986 Encyclopedia Americana:

          Defense: Geared exclusively to fighting a defensive war, the Swiss have developed plans for destroying every tunnel, bridge, and pass leading into Switzerland and have implemented a program of universal military service for all men between the ages of 20 and 50. Conscientious objectors and those physically unqualified for active training are liable for noncombative duties or for terms of alternate service in hospitals or in public-service projects. Many who receive exemptions from any form of service, including those living outside Switzerland, are subject to a special tax in lieu of military service.
          The Swiss military structure is base upon the concept of a national militia. The militia includes highly mobile and well-equipped armored units along with several specially trained alpine divisions. The Swiss also maintain an excellent air force with almost 400 planes. Since defense is rooted in the militia, the army retains only a small force of approximately 400 officers and 200 noncommissioned officers on a full-time basis. This cadre is used to train the national militia, which can number more than 600,000 when fully mobilized.
          Military training isdivided into three periods, with duties becoming successively less demanding. All draftees undergo four months of basic training, then serve 12 years in the Elite reserve, with a minimum of eight 20-day training periods. Ten years are spent in the Landwehr, which has biennial 13-day training sessions. Finally, there are eight years of service in the Landsturm, which has one 13-day training period. Infantrymen traditionally keep their rifles, uniforms, and ammunition at home.
          The cantons, which are responsible for administering and training the militia, may promote officers to the rank of captain. The federal government controls subsequent promotions up to colonel, the highest peacetime rank. Only in a national emergency does the federal assembly elect one man to the temporary rank of general. This has occurred only five times since 1848.

          It worked for us in the Revolutionary War and thereafter. It will work today if we will stick to it. The reason we have enemies around the world is because we keep sticking our nose in other country’s business. Switzerland doesn’t do that and no one bothers them. Here are a couple of articles on Switzerland one of which is a book review of Target: Switzerland by Stephen Halbrook.

          Best Regards,

          David
          USN Ret.

      • avatarAharon says:

        I see America as more of an imperial empire than a democratic-republic. I have been turned off with the NRAs support for America’s endless imperial wars. The NRA really blows the trumpet supporting the troops which I think are often put into places America doesn’t need to be or are there because of previous bad foreign policy that got us there. I support the wisdom of the Founding Fathers in advising Americans to avoid foreign entanglements and a standing Army. A much smaller modest standing Army I’m fine with and it should not be able to threaten the American people.

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          Yep.

          And now the NRA types fear the very Imperial Golem they support. So then the Standing Army supporters have to contrive means to control their Golem, such as with “Oathkeepers.”

          If they were really interested in keeping their oath, they’d just quit taking their paychecks and walk away, because the Constitution calls for starving a raised Army of funds after a time limit of 2 years.

          Now that’s a spending cut!!!

          …that the NRA just can’t accept. So the NRA types are now facing the consequences of their disdain of the Constitution and the complete Second Amendment.

        • avatarWLCE says:

          that is precisely why i never could align myself as a republican or democrat.

          you have republicans spout about freedom and the right to bear arms to prevent tyranny, yet they are either quiet or supportive of “enhanced interrogation techniques” (honorable men and women call this torture) and the illegal war in iraq.

          then you have democrats that claim foreign policy ethics and whistle blowing against gee dub while supporting the same policies that very person orchestrated during his time in presidency.

          all hypocrites; any person with two neurons rubbing together should ethically separate themselves from such a corrupt group of individuals.

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          +1

    • avatarDerryM says:

      Good point. What the current Administration wants to ignore, so as to advance its agenda, is that the NRA mirrors what the Federal Government is SUPPOSED to be doing, namely, taking its “marching orders” from The People. You know…that inconvenient axiom “Government by Consent of the Governed”…NOT Government by the tyrannical ambitions of the Governing.

  10. avatark4R-15 says:

    This is another good reason to show up at your state capitol by noon on Saturday Jan 19th!

    It’s time to remind the public that supporters of the Second Amendment are a quiet majority but still a majority!

    Check out http://www.guncontrolmorecrime.com to learn more

  11. avatarPulatso says:

    Do they not understand that the average NRA member is even less responsive to civilian disarmament than NRA leadership?

  12. avatarIvy Mike says:

    he’s not trying to trample on hunters and sportsmen

    Nope. He’s just trying to finish the job of trampling out the Militia, in favor of the Standing Army. Just like the NRA.

    Support Our Troops
    http://www.nra.org/troops/soldier.htm

    There ya go, craven mewling for “support” of the “engine of oppression” that the 2A was written to prevent.

    And no, the Standing Army doesn’t defend our freedoms. They’re just running a racket as Wall Street’s “gangster for capitalism” as Smedley Butler put it.

    The NRA isn’t a defender of the 2A any more than Judas was a supporter of Jesus.

    • avatarJoe says:

      Do you live in Switzerland? No? Based on your posts I would recommend you move there to you utopia… Here’s a quick bit of Internet manners, stop writing the same point after everyones posts, it becomes annoying and even if you were trying to make a valid point you just become ignored like a two year old whining to get attention

      • avatarIvy Mike says:

        Do you get your talking points against the 2A from Cuomo? Don’t have the balls to address my well-documented points?

    • avatarMichael B. says:

      Just what I want to see in the morning, ten thousand posts railing against a standing army. Buddy, I agree with you but you don’t need to spam the **** out of the comments section.

      • avatarIvy Mike says:

        To prevent a Standing Army is the purpose of the 2A.

        Problem?

        Frankly, nobody here much supports the COMPLETE 2A, only a fragment of it.

        “What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty….”

        ~Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, August 17, 1789

        Because you can’t argue against my well-documented points, you have to piss and moan about other things, as a way to smear. You’re just like DiFi.

    • avatarIvy Mike says:

      If you don’t like a Swiss-style milita, why don’t you move to North Korea? You’d fit in better there; the tyrant-boy love long time Standing Army, just like you do.

      “The inhabitants of Switzerland emancipated themselves by the establishment of a militia, which finally delivered them from the tyranny of their lords.”
      ~Representative Jackson, first U.S. Congress, when it met and turned to defense measures in 1791

    • avatarMister Fleas says:

      Sir: you are a flipping crank.

      • avatarIvy Mike says:

        But I’m not anti-2A like you, so bite me.

        • avatarjwm says:

          So IM, if a person points out any of your glaring faults, that makes them anti 2a? You and barry have ego’s to match.

          And this ain’t Switzerland. Just thought I’d bring that to your attention.

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          Glaring faults? Is my glaring fault that I support the COMPLETE 2A?

          You show only contempt for the reason the 2A was written, to “to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.”

  13. avatargreat unknown says:

    How in the world are they going to split the NRA membership from its leadership? Via statements from the White House or talking heads on MSM? That only works for low-information and/or low intelligence people. NRA members? Not a chance.

    If MSM hadn’t totally disgraced and devalued itself in the last election, there might have been a chance that they would have some kind of effect. Today? Only the members of NRA who are certified [and certifiable] Democrats might believe them.

    Example: how many members of the NRA [or gun owners in general] believe a word of what is said on MSNBC or CNN, or in the NYT or Washington Post regarding guns? Or consider Piers Anthony anything but an arrogant, ignorant,
    admitted fraud?

    [BTW, he has made the claim that the "assault rifle" used in the Newtown shooting could shoot 6 rounds a second. This "expert" on "semi-automatics" is, fortunately, the point man of the gun control crown on MSM. Imagine if they had a competent non-clown. But where would they get one? Joe Biden?]

    • avatarOld Ben turning in grave says:

      Don’t underestimate them. They have read their Alinsky, and they have developed their dark side tactics to an elite level.

      They have taken a step toward socialized medicine. They have passed a law that authorizes detention of US citizens without due process, and somehow, successfully defended it in the courts (and yes, that unthinkable NDAA rider is back in 2013). Two gross violations of the constitution that I thought I’d never see in my country. Now, they want strip us of our arms. If the first two are not enough of a slap in the face to get Americans to wake up and vote these jokers out of office, what will it take?

      Well, what about the backlash against Obama care when the scope of the true burden and mess becomes a reality? The economy actually worsening, with inflation eating into take-home pay reduced by increased payroll taxes? Obama and crowd know these things are coming, which is why they are pushing so hard to disarm us NOW. We have to win this fight on civilian arms. This is just a battle in a bigger war to save America, but it may be a decisive battle either way. If we retain our teeth, we might be able to hold on to the last vestiges of constitutional rule of law long enough to peacefully rid ourselves of this threat.

      Keep on your rep and senators, show up on Saturday, well dressed and with a pithy sign. If you have never been to political rally in your life, now’s the time.

  14. avatarSaul Feldstein says:

    Classic Marxist techniques, google “Potemkin Village” if you want to understand how the COMMUNISTS who have SEIZED POWER are going to ENFORCE THEIR WILL.

  15. avatarpk in AZ says:

    “I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials.”

    George Mason

    • avatarIvy Mike says:

      “This [citizen-militia] appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army…” ~Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist, Number 29

      But like North Korea’s boy-general, the Conservative Right love long time Standing Army. So ronery!

      They’ve sold out the national defense purpose of the Militia for $$money.$$

      “I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business…” ~Major General Smedley Butler, USMC

  16. avatarPascal says:

    Hey, at least they are being honest.

    They want to divide and conquer. Now we know….what are TTAG people going to do about it? Shall we let them just take our guns?

    At the signing of Declaration of Independence Franklin said “We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.”

    Now is the time to hang together. Love, hate dispise them, if you are not an NRA member, you should join. The increase in membership will send the message that they will not divide us. That our resolve is strong that their intent is only to do us and the country grave harm. Make it so that our voices are heard from coast to coast that in 2014 we will remember those who stabbed us in the backs and resources will be spent to assure those in congress do not spend one more day in the seat of power plotting ways to destroy liberty and the constitution — let them know that they serve at the will of the people and these people will speak and give them no peace until their tyranny is soon undone.

    Today is a day when difference must be placed aside for another time when the government is not trying to disarm its citizens so that it may subject them to even worse. Today is a day when all intelligent people, all people of liberty, all gun owners must stand side-by-side and together let Washington D.C. know we will not be divided, we will not be torn apart, we will not allow you to take our guns and that the politician whose only agenda is total and complete disarmament shall not win.

    The bell tolls loud and clear — we must awake to fight. Arm ourselves with knowledge, with conviction, and our voices. Give the enemy no rest. Do not stop the emails, do not stop the phone calls — may the halls of every town hall, every state house and Washington be flooded with the letters of our displeasure. The enemies of liberty will press hard, we must press harder. Just as a correct state of mind is important to win a self defense encounter, so too now must our minds be sharp, our minds be hyper focused, our wills unbroken and we must not rest until there is nothing short of victory. It will not be easy, but nothing that has ever been worth fighting for never has.

    May the good people of the Armed Intelligencia rise and be counted on this day and let it be known we shall never surrender nor never allow the politicians to destroy the Second Amendment nor the constitution. Let it be known we see your deceit, your ruse as you falsely hold an olive branch in one hand and the sharp dagger to stab and divide us all in with in the other.

  17. avatarTed says:

    All of my “hunter” friends realize that if they go after semi-autos, it’s only a matter of time and another shooting before bolt, pump, and lever actions are next.

    The gun-grabbers are a prohibitionist group. They don’t want to ban some guns, they want to ban ALL of them.

    • avatarAlphaGeek says:

      Any hunter who thinks it through quickly realizes that he absolutely is next, because the average hunting rifle hits a hell of a lot harder that 5.56 from an AR.

      • avatartdiinva says:

        I think the earlier point about a significant overlap between the two groups is well made. I am a hunter who owns a number of handguns for something other than hunting. I also know that the lightest centerfire round in my inventory has 2/3 more muzzle energy than the “too powerful for civilian use” 223. I know once they get rid of your deadly assault weapons they will come for my sniper rifle so I am not buying any of the sweet talk. I am also warning any non self defense oriented shooters that they shouldn’t be fooled by the hunters are ok talk.

      • avatarAharon says:

        My double-action revolvers can be concealed much better than a long gun therefore I’m also on the USG/gun-grabber hit list. My lever-action carbine is a symbol of male pride and ego that the metro-sexuals want to destroy therefore it is also on the hit list.

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          male pride and ego that the metro-sexuals

          You’re perceptive.

          The city-slicker “poodles” are way over-domesticated.[1,2] Realize that domestication does two things to animals–including the hairless great ape who has managed to domesticate himself–it makes their brains smaller,[3] which in turn makes them STUPID and DOCILE, to make them easily controlled.

          Note that I said “poodles.” It is more scientifically correct, as wolves and wild humans co-evolved,[4] and domesticated each other into foo-foo poodle dogs; i.e., metrosexuals.

          Wild Wolves scare metro-sexual poodles as much as Egalitarian Power-sharing “autonomous and sovereign”[5] Indian tribes–the hated wild Injuns[6,7] is where we got the Second Amendment–scare the bejesus Civilized (City-Statist) metro-sexuals.

          The difference between Red State and Blue State thinking can be summed up in one concept: the level of domestication.

          ____________
          [1] Peter J. Wilson (1991) The Domestication of the Human Species. Yale University Press.

          [2] Jack Goody (1977) The Domestication of the Savage Mind. Cambridge University Press.

          [3] Kathleen McAuliffe (2010) If Modern Humans Are So Smart, Why Are Our Brains Shrinking? Discover Magazine discovermagazine.com/2010/sep/25-modern-humans-smart-why-brain-shrinking

          [4] “The closest approximation to human morality we can find in nature is that of the gray wolf, Canis lupus.” ~Wolfgang M. Schleidt & Michael D. Shalter (2003) Co-evolution of Humans and Canids, An Alternative View of Dog Domestication: Homo Homini ? Evolution and Cognition. Vol. 9, No. 1, pp. 57-72

          [5] Elman R. Service (1975) Origins of the State and Civilization: The Process of Cultural Evolution. New York: Norton.

          [6] James Axtell (1986) The Invasion Within: The Contest of Cultures in Colonial North America. Oxford University Press.

          [7] Jack Weatherford (1992) Native Roots: How the Indians Enriched America. Ballentine.

        • avatarAharon says:

          ‘male pride and ego that the metro-sexuals’

          “You’re perceptive.”

          I’m also an MRA; a Men’s Rights Activist. Therefore I have studied and learned to see disarmament in additional ways than many others. Traditionally, men (and boys) were the protectors and providers. The sword, spear, bow & arrows, and gun are symbols of male pride, power, and the old honor code.

          Today’s government(s) are pushing the police-nanny state corporatist/fascist movement with some of the old nationalism being merged with limited globalism. The people in democracies are seen as tools, pawns, or serfs to serve and be exploited by the elites.

          Male bashing, laws that discriminate against men, Family and Criminal Courts that are biased against men, encouraging and making divorce too easy and penalizing the male, breaking up and separating fathers from their children, etc are all actions designed to oppress, humiliate, and burden the once-strong masculine culture and men in America. Taking guns away from men is a symbolic castration and an actual step to destroy masculinity in our society.

          Forty to fifty years ago, America still had a strong masculine society and culture. Today, while the country may still have males in most government and other leadership positions it is not now (and wasn’t really much better before) that puts men first. Men are now clearly second class citizens yet are held the most responsible and accountable. However, in the past, masculine values and honor prevented society from behaving in the irrational, immoral, idiotic, and self-destructive manner as it does in the current modern America.

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          +1

          The problem stems from domestication that started thousands of years ago. The hairless Great Ape domesticated other animals and ended up with the unintended consequence of domesticating themselves.

          Including concurrent neoteny. The human race is “progressing” into juvenilization.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny

          A mature “old honor code” doesn’t mean beans to an increasingly juvenilized species.

  18. avatarDisThunder says:

    Absolutely.
    Just like any other dysfunctional family, we can argue about militias and sporting needs and various other splitting hairs just as soon as we beat back this tide.
    I don’t hunt much, other than coyotes and rabbits and they don’t really count, but I greatly enjoy my national parks, wildlife preserves, and just good old wide open spaces that fish and game enthusiasts help pay for.
    Likewise, while some hunters might not think much about defensive gun use, I’m sure they appreciate the efforts made to ensure that should they need to, they can.
    And I’ve yet to meet a hunter that didn’t want to stop and ogle one of my AKs, just like I can’t look just once at any slick scoped lever-action getting sighted in at the range.

  19. avatarAharon says:

    “he’s not trying to trample on hunters and sportsmen”

    — Obummer and his cronies never mention the rights of self-defense. By omission, Obummer is trying to trample on the rights of Americans to own and use other types of long-guns ie shotguns etc, handguns and even revolvers for legitimate self-defense. Speaking of the little devil, Obummer is scheduled to hold a Press Conference @11:15AM ET.

    • avatarIvy Mike says:

      Obummer and his cronies never mention the rights of self-defense.

      Neither does the Constitution.

      The 2A was written into the Federal Constitution for one purpose, and one purpose only: to “prevent”[1] and “substitute”[2] a Standing Army.

      Self-defense is a right left to individuals and the several states. For example, the Ohio Constitution: “The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security…”

      Oh, and it also confirms the singular reason for the Federal 2A: “…but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be kept up…”

      So why are we keeping one up?

      Why does the NRA despise the purpose of the Militia?

      ____________
      [1] “What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty….” ~Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, August 17, 1789

      [2] “This [citizen-militia] appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army…” ~Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist, Number 29

      • avatarAharon says:

        Ivy Mike,

        You and I see the big picture and details in, I believe, precisely the same way.

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          I knew I’d find somebody here who supports more than a truncated version of the 2A. Thanks.

        • avatarAharon says:

          Ivy Mike,

          You’re welcome.

          Yes, I now the 2A does not address the issue of self-defense and no where in the Bill of Rights does it tell us we can have kids. It’s a given right and common sense for free people.

          Americans are mostly objectively-uneducated and brainwashed sheeple. The citizen has been transformed into the consumer. Toys and pleasure are more important than freedom and honor.

          Seems to me the NRA has heavily latched onto the NeoCon and right-wing religious ideology driven people as a reliable membership base. Thats a guess though I’ve read online comments that their conventions are like a religious revival conclave.

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          right-wing religious ideology

          Indeed.

          Unfortunately, they forget one of the most important lessons of Jesus, when he talked with Nicodemus, and told him to not take his illustrative allegory literally.

          Now, batshitcrazy literalism–belief in magical ghosts, a 6000 year old earth, etc.–is a litmus test to attend most churches (in my area at least.)

          I take most of the Bible literarily, i.e., as illustrative literature, because much of it has been disproven as historically accurate. Yet interpreted as literary myth, many stories in the Bible actually are quite informative, and parallel the discoveries of the last 60 years of anthropology and archeology. (For example, the “Garden of Eden” was paleolithic “Original Affluent Society (Sahlins, 1974), and the “Fall of Man” was the Neolithic (Agricultural) Revolution.)

          And I’m not afraid to reject something in the Bible. I don’t make an obviously flawed book an idol. Some of it is just pure shi…….wait, I’ll use Jefferson’s more staid wording: “a dunghill.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

  20. avatarChuck says:

    Obama will have a difficult time separating himself from the Feinsteins, Durbins and Schumers of his party. He will try, and will be successful to some degree, (I know some union guys who are convinced Obama and Romney would have handled this the exact same way) but not enough to divide and conquer the membership of the NRA. And speaking of same, if you are not a member, you had better do it now.

  21. avatarJosh says:

    This one bugs me — highpower across-the-course competitors are sportsmen. It’s a lie right on the very face of it.

  22. avatarRandy Drescher says:

    Some left nut just looked at the situation & said we must do something fast, 80,000 guns are selling per month & that anything they do will be pretty much nullified, that much reality they can handle. I don’t think the pres has much of a choice regarding EO’s over mag bans, the government cannot be seen to be helpless to their sheep. I would be shocked to hear of a push to end criminal safe zones by joe-i’m going to get your guns-biden, this is at the heart of dem ideology, a minority gangbanger/robber/rioter can’t be shot. Yes, the criminal is the good guy & the CC holder is the bad guy. This brilliance might work with the sharpmouth & jerkson crowd but I hope most see through the upside down bs, Randy

  23. avatarbontai Joe says:

    “….the president is not an ideologue….”

    Really? I mean REALLY? A Whitehouse official said this? REALLY? I wonder what motherbleeping planet this whitehouse official lives on? I read that and darn near choked on my own bile.

    • avatarWill says:

      The official is just a mouthpiece spewing whatever its told to. It don’t care if its fact or lie (although it should and insist on fact), only that it must tell everyone what it is told to speak. Much like NBC as of late.

  24. avatarSilver says:

    They seem to think the majority of gun owners were led to the NRA by the NRA itself. Many were led to the NRA because of Obama.

    People aren’t out there mass-buying guns because the NRA told them to. They’re doing it because the government’s actions spurred them to. Sorry, leftists, not everyone’s as blindly lemming-like in their following of higher powers like you are.

    • avatarAharon says:

      Gun and ammo sales took off right after the CT shooting and kept going and building because of the behavior of Obummer, DiFi, and other gun-grabbers. The NRA was actually silent of the shooting for several long days. I think it was a week before they WLP gave his public speech.

  25. avatarIdahoPete says:

    “If the membership can be convinced that the president is not an ideologue trying to grab their guns, …”

    And if the membership can be convinced to believe in the Tooth Fairy and the deep and abiding love of liberty evidenced by the leaders of the Democrap Party….

    And when Hell freezes over …..

    • avatarIvy Mike says:

      Love of liberty, you say?

      Who rabidly supports the Standing Army, which is the “bane of liberty,”[1] the “greatest mischief,”[2] and an “engine of oppression?”[3]

      Republicans. Conservatives. The NRA. They’re as hierarchical, authoritarian, and Statist as the other party they love to hate for that.

      It’s time to man-up and quit weaseling out of this simple fact: the Right Wing Militarists have eviscerated the 2A as much as the Leftists.

      __________
      [1] “What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty….” ~Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, August 17, 1789
      [2] “A standing army is one of the greatest mischief that can possibly happen.” ~James Madison
      [3] “…no such engine of oppression as a standing army.” ~Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814

      • avatarfoggy says:

        Mike, if it seems like you are a lonely voice in the wilderness, it is only because you are. Many people here, myself included, believe that the current status of the US military is unconstitutional. If you actually want to fight that battle, you would probably be better served by protesting outside of the US military installation nearest to your home.

        I would take Rep. Gerry’s words about the preservation of liberty with a grain of salt. This is a man who, once he became governor of Massachusetts, perverted the electoral process by injecting party politics into the drawing of Congressional districts thus adding the word “gerrymander” to the English language. Just like any other group of sufficient size, there was hypocrisy among the Founding Fathers.

      • avatarIvy Mike says:

        If you have any argument why I’m wrong about the 2A, please present it.

        But your sign-carrying bullshit is the dumbest thing I’ve heard all day.

        Anyway, you have fun with your Collectivist Militarists, and I’ll be glad to stay ever so “lonely.”

        • avatarMatt in FL says:

          I still think you should find a new line. This comment section has that same Elbridge Gerry quote five times within the space of eight hours.

          Do you think no one reads the other comments, so you have to include that quote in every reply you leave?

        • avatarIvy Mike says:

          I’ll find a different line when the dishonest truncation of the 2A stops.

          Support the complete 2A.

  26. avatarKirk says:

    One of the ways gun-grabbers are trying to substantiate their position is by pointing to Australia — as Rupert Murdoch did on Dec. 14th.

    Here I demonstrate why and how the argument doesn’t hold water: http://guardamerican.com/index.php/blog/34-jurisdiction/444-assault-weapon-ban-australia-vs-america-do-they-compare

  27. avatarLance says:

    Think most hunter know better the old AR owners vs Hunters part of gun ownership is over since 94 when the first ban passed and guess what they announced they want to ban all guns. Overall The WH may posture but I think gun owners themselves are mostly united and will fight for our freedoms.

  28. avatarensitu says:

    America is no longer on the slippery slope towards an Islamo-Facist State it is in free-fall
    America’s enemies are in control of the goverment and military
    The Blind Sheik will be released soon, on a Sunday night and he will be flown to Egypt following the State Visit by Egypts Caliph.
    The US Constitution is null and void.
    Too argue wether gun-owners will be outlawed, will be afforded health care, freedom to travel and assemble, even the freedom to communicate is the same as arguing about how sharp your executioner’s axe should be, pointless.
    And yes, Bibles will be treated like guns in that they will be confiscated, defiled and destroyed, just like their owners

    • avatarIvy Mike says:

      Blaming that damn Lihbrul George Washington for all that?

      “If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists…”

      ~George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon

  29. avatarJoe Citizen says:

    Thomas Jefferson wrote: “The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.”

    For those that don’t recall, he is the one that authored the second amendment. This is not about hunters, and sportsmen.

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