Defensive Gun Use of the Day: No One Needs More Than Ten Rounds Edition

 

A lazy Saturday morning in Sacremento, California was interrupted by a gun fight Saturday in a Sacramento man’s front yard. Three men, armed to the teeth, were attempting to break into his house, but the homeowner decided his life and property were worth defending. Not to mention the group of kids that were reportedly for a sleepover. CBS Sacremento picks up the story . . .

Police say around 3:30 a.m. Saturday, armed suspects burst into a home on Haven Court, trying to rob those inside. Instead, one of the homeowners would grab a gun, and after an exchange of gunfire, the homeowner and two suspects would be wounded, while another suspect was shot dead.

Against three attackers, the homeowner killed one and wounded the other two attackers before being shot himself.

From the local ABC affiliate:

When officers arrived, they found one robbery suspect fatally wounded; the suspect was pronounced dead at the scene. The homeowner was also shot and was transported a hospital with non-life threatening injuries.

Another robbery suspect, 21 year old Thomas Ordonaz, who was injured in the shooting was later arrested on charges of assault with a deadly weapon and accessory.

A third person showed up at a local hospital with gunshot wounds. It’s unclear how this person is connected to the incident, but was detained by police, Morse said.

There’s a rising number of home invasions where the robbers kill any and all occupants they find to try and cover their tracks. So there’s a good chance that the father saved the lives of his family and the other children on Saturday by resisting the forces of evil using his constitutionally protected right to bear arms. The same rights the president and members of Congress are working so hard to limit.

Three attackers. Three armed men trying to get inside a house, determined to separate the homeowners from their possessions by any means possible. Tell me that limiting magazine capacity to 10 rounds makes sense when there are three armed men on your doorstep.

avatar

About Nick Leghorn

Nick Leghorn is a gun nerd living and working in San Antonio, Texas. In his free time, he's a competition shooter (USPSA, 3-gun and NRA High Power), aspiring pilot, and enjoys mixing statistics and science with firearms. Now on sale: Getting Started with Firearms by yours truly!

77 Responses to Defensive Gun Use of the Day: No One Needs More Than Ten Rounds Edition

  1. avatarSanchanim says:

    @Nick,
    Here in California, we have a 10 round limit and a magazine safety law already in place. He was still able to manage to fend them off, but might he had been more successful, i.e. not get shot if he had more rounds? I will take a slight leap of faith and say yes.

    • avatarDonS says:

      I left CA in August, 2011, but never heard of a “magazine safety law” while I was there.

      Are you referring to CA’s AWB?

      • avatarmountocean says:

        IIRC new manufacture must have a magazine disconnect to prevent firing when the magwell is empty.
        Reduces “I unloaded it” accidents and a way to deactivate if you’re about to loose it VS. additional cost/complexity and IT WON’T WORK if you drop the mag.

      • avatarSanchanim says:

        @Don,
        No for hand guns there is what they call a magazine safety law. If the magazine is out of the firearm, even if there is one round chambered the gun will not fire.
        There are ways around it, using what they call a single shot exemption, but unless you wan to play that game most don’t bother.
        Of course we also have the AWB which is so darn confusing. Needless to say for our sporting rifles right now we have a 10 round limit, and a bullet button. It stinks if you shoot 3 gun because it is hard to shoot against guys who have pre ban guns, and 30 round magazines. If you wan to own a 50 BMG that is also a no no, although honestly I don’t know of any crimes committed with such a rifle.
        I am sure if I have money burning a hole in my pocket I would be interested, but really I would rather have the AWB lifted so we could own 30 round magazines, no bullet button, and a can if we wanted..
        I admit it, I have gun envy over Nick’s AR… ;-)

        • avatarDonS says:

          “No for hand guns there is what they call a magazine safety law. If the magazine is out of the firearm, even if there is one round chambered the gun will not fire.”

          Interesting. When did that law take effect?

          My SW1911, purchased in Campbell, CA in 2007, will definitely fire with the magazine removed.

        • avatarSanchanim says:

          I did some searching, and it looks like it was enacted in 2007. Now having said that, I am willing to bet that there might have been some lag time, maybe a year or so because gun makers needed to add the feature, plus gun store stock etc…

        • avatarDonS says:

          I looked into it, as well. If a pistol was already on CA’s “roster”, it didn’t have to meet the new “magazine disconnect mechanism” requirement. PC 12126 (old numbering).

          I imagine my SW1911 purchased in Sept 2007 was already on the roster. It has a “chamber load indicator”, but it certainly has no “magazine disconnect mechanism”.

        • avatarDoctorscorry says:

          Sanchanim,

          Can’t californians have featurless rifles so that they can have 30 round magazines and no bullet button? Thats what I hear from the guys I shoot 3 gun with.

        • avatarRybred says:

          yes, you can go featureless, that means no adjustable stock, pistol grip, VFG or flash hider. You also have to have owned any >10rd mags before 1999
          also the pistol issue is called the cali-approved safe handgun roster. certain requirements keep getting added every couple of years and as long as the manufacturer keeps paying the state FOR EVERY SINGLE VERSION OF EVERY PISTOL THEY WANT TO SELL on an annual basis, they will be grandfathered and be allowed to continue to be sold by FFLs. That means that an FDE XD-45 Tactical is “safe” but an FDE XD-45Tac with a SS slide=Unsafe.
          No gen4 glocks or XDM’s for you civvies! There are ways around this, but they aren’t cheap.
          Oh, but of course cops are exempt and are able to purchase as many “unsafe” guns as they want! Which makes total sense, since they would be most likely to be carrying them in public around kids and stuff.
          The reality is that even though this list claims to be there for public safety, it’s only reason for existence is to
          A:make it difficult/expensive for manufacturers to comply and KEEP them for sale (it’s expensive for them to produce a “kali” specific version.
          B:Eventually reduce the number of available pistols to 0 when all the grandfathered models aren’t re-registered.
          My Beretta NEOS is no longer on the list so i wouldn’t be able to buy one now if i wanted to. Also, out of fear of the wacky, confusing laws in Kali, many online retailers won’t sell ANY semi-auto firearm OR pistol here…
          Really good sources of info on Cali laws:
          http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Main_Page

        • avatarEvan says:

          ten rounds is rough, in NJ we have 15. Its a bit better but man id like a 30 rounder one of these days

    • avatarPhil says:

      Maybe the homeowner had preban mags?

    • avatarAlphaGeek says:

      San, there is a possibility that the defender had grandfathered standard-capacity magazines. The story doesn’t say either way, but it would be interesting to find out.

      Seems pretty clear that the police are treating this as a righteous shoot by the homeowner. Hope he has two guns, as the one he used is now evidence in a homicide investigation. Personally, I think if you’re involved in a righteous DGU and the cops take your only gun, they should be required to loan you an equivalent model until yours is returned.

      • avatarSanchanim says:

        I agree AlphaGeek.
        We don’t know, but the law in CA isn’t as bad as many think in regard to DGU’s. Most of the time home protection is always in favor of the home owner occupier. Of course there are always exceptions, but Castle law is pretty clear and put it in favor of the defender.
        I just hope he recovers to be home for the holidays with his family…
        The other guys, well… I am guessing their holiday won’t be so nice..

    • avatarMichael Casaccia says:

      Just because they ban them dont mean we dont have them =)

  2. avatarJohn Doe says:

    I’ve been thinking, but wouldn’t a capacity limit on magazines lead to more deaths in a spree killing? I mean a gunman might become more frugal with his ammuntion and make an effort to have every shot do as much damage as possible. 30rd magazines and military rifles were designed with the thought of enemy combatants shooting back, which suits self-defense scenarios. However a room full of unarmed people poses little threat: Reloading during a firefight is a life or death situation is different from reloading in a room full of scared and panicking victims.

    • avatarBilly Wardlaw says:

      I think this is a very accurate observation. Short of saving a few seconds on a reload, in a gun-free-zone with no armed resistance, magazine capacity is a non-issue.

      • avatarRybred says:

        That PLUS, a person with a plan to kill people and time to setup for it is already going to be in the mindset of taking out people, reloading, taking out more people, rinse, repeat.
        Even IF limited to 10 rd mags, A: they’re mentally prepared, B: could have a tactical vest with a TON of mags on them. Virginia Tech was done with 10rd mags. Heck what would a $500 investment on mags be to someone that doesn’t plan on paying that credit card bill?
        Someone responding to a threat with only 10rd mags would be at a HUGE disadvantage already. Already behind the OODA loop, may only have the pistol, OR possibly 1 spare mag. He only has to gear up for this 1 event, you OTOH have to pack what you have EVERY day of your life! I could pack in a lot of stuff if i KNEW I was going into war, but that becomes impossible for the average person on a daily basis.
        Face it, it’s alot easier to be in the mindset of nailing your quick mag changes just before you’re about to run a stage in USPSA, IPSC or 3-gun but not when you’re sitting in a movie theater, or when you’re diving into a burger. The good guys need every chance they can get…

  3. avatarjwm says:

    Yes we have 10 round mag limits in California and no, they make no real sense at all.

    • avatarSanchanim says:

      This is also a very good case as to why I need a sporting rifle with 30 bullets!

    • avatarBozidar says:

      Our Carmel (NY) correspondent wtires:I love it. The more extreme he makes the Chicago regulatory scheme, the harder he’s going to get smacked down in court, and the more kinds of restrictions the federal court can rule upon. Seems that great Second Amendment Scholar of the South avant la Heller, Joel Chandler Harris, may have filed a Curiously Amicable brief in hopes of seeing Daley doubled down:”Oh, please, , whatever you do .”Call it Briar Restraint .

  4. avatarTRP says:

    A good reason to own several guns (i.e. shotgun, rifle and pistol)…..

  5. avatarGraybeard says:

    …or become real proficient at rapid magazine exchanges…

    • avatarAlphaGeek says:

      I can execute a high-speed reload like nobody’s business, especially since my HK will automatically slide-release if I insert a full mag with Germanic vigor… But that’s still a 1.5 second break in my shooting tempo. Fast reloads are a poor alternative to running 13- and 16-round magazines in my gun.

      • avatarjwm says:

        At 3 am my hi speed reload is to drop the empty shotgun and commence to party with the handgun. If the handgun runs dry my wife can cover while I reload.

      • avatarDonS says:

        “my HK will automatically slide-release if I insert a full mag with Germanic vigor”

        Of course, no vigor required if you swap mags before pulling the trigger on that last round.

        • avatarAlphaGeek says:

          True. But I make no assumptions that I will have spare cycles to count rounds during the chaos of a DGU, so I train mostly for slide-lock reloads. For me personally, it’s the same speed for either technique. Dunno about other people and their firearms.

  6. avatarAharon says:

    Even more business today for the Sacramento area gun stores.

  7. avatarAlphaGeek says:

    My home defense plan would absolutely be improved if I could legally buy 16-round “jet funnel” mags for my HK USP here in CA. There is a world of difference between 10+1 vs 16+1 in your ability to return fire in those critical first moments of an armed encounter.

  8. avatarEsh325 says:

    I don’t agree with capacity limits, but he lived to tell the story, so 10 shots is fine.

    • avatarDonS says:

      … presuming he actually had a 10-round magazine.

      Plenty of legal (pre-ban) 11+ mags in CA.

      • avatarThomas Paine says:

        Nick is arguing that there may be times when you need more than 10 rounds. Debunking the argument “Why does anyone need a 30 round magazine?)

        • avatarDonS says:

          Yes, Nick is.

          Esh325 seems to be presuming that the defender actually had a 10-round magazine and, because the defender [seems to have] lived, “10 shots is fine”.

          I was trying to point out that we don’t know anything about the defender’s magazine capacity, since there are lots of 11+ mags legally possessed in CA. Heck, we don’t [yet?] know if the defender was using a firearm that accepts magazines. Maybe he was using a S&W500 and only had 5 shots available.

        • avatarSanchanim says:

          Either way he walked away from this, and his family is safe which is the really point right?
          If his daughter really was having a sleep over I am sure those parents are very grateful that he was in fact armed..

        • avatarEsh325 says:

          Yes, I’m not aware of what firearm or magazine he used. Compared to other ways you can get killed in this world, dying because you didn’t have enough cartridges in your magazine is pretty remote.

        • avatarBob says:

          If it was a legally grandfathered hi-cap mag, then expect that information to be suppressed.

        • avatarAlphaGeek says:

          Esh325, I don’t usually say this, but… You don’t get it, do you?

          Yes, DGUs are relatively rare, and the statistical chance that you’ll be in a “hot” DGU are small.

          But, and this is a BIG but: if and when it does happen to you, magazine capacity could end up being a pretty fscking important factor. If you really believe the need for more than a shot or two is unlikely, by all means feel free to keep a single-shot pistol or small revolver for home defense.

          Personally, I keep my large-caliber home defense pistol loaded to capacity with the best ammo I can feed it, along with two spare mags right there in the gunvault with it. That’s not because I like to carry around extra crap, but because all of the training I’ve received emphasizes that this (plus a light) is the minimum recommended grab-and-go package.

          And then there’s the loaded shotgun in the safe in case things get really exciting…

        • avatarEsh325 says:

          I don’t live a life of fear. Merry Christmas.

        • avatarThomasR says:

          Yeah esh325, I agree, why live a life of fear, I believe instead in being a mature responsible adult and be prepared for lifes uncertainties,
          1. Fire extinguishers in my kitchen and car.
          2. Always wear my seat belt.
          3. I know CPR.
          4. Health insurance, car insurance.
          5. I eat healthy and work out.
          6. I lock my doors at night.
          All to protect against the forces of chaos that might cause injury or death. No fear involved.

          Oh I almost forgot, how do I protect against a possible attack by a human predator?

          According to your average gun grabber, I can protect against all these other ways of injury or death and be a mature responsible adult, but if I get a gun to protect against a human being intent on doing me harm, I’m living in fear.

          Yep, makes total sense to me, I’ll sell my guns immediately and depend on good thoughts and defenselessness to keep me safe.

          But, shouldn’t I stop using my seat belt because that means I’m living in fear of a car wreck?

          I’m confused!

        • avatarEsh325 says:

          The world is not kumbaya, and there is a difference between being prepared, and being paranoid. I don’t think I said or even implied that it’s wrong to defend yourself or use a firearm to defend yourself.

  9. avatarMr aNINNYmouse says:

    I wonder what CA Attorney General, Kamala Harris, will say about this?…..

    • avatarCasey T says:

      He will probably cite the young age of one of the criminals, stating that guns cost a young man his life. Nevermind that they may well have killed the family.

      • avatarAlphaGeek says:

        She, not he. And no, that doesn’t happen with state officials here, much less the attorney general. Sometimes you’ll get some local council jackass grandstanding for the press, or a reporter running a quote from some community member who feels obliged to say something nice about the perp, but outside of that, not so much.

  10. avatarDavid-p says:

    Why do they put speedometers in cars that go over 70 when you can’t find a place in the us that you can legally go over 70mph. Because a car is a tool, when in the wrong hands kills many more than guns do each year. A car can go over 70mph just in case, just like a high capacity magazine. Hopefully you won’t need more than 10 but until they can promise I won’t I will hang onto mine. When the pd says we can do it with 10, they supposedly have more training and are better shots, then I will will look at going to 10 round.

    By the way how are they planning on to regulate magazines. What would stop manufacture from just making 458 socom 10 round mags, which is the same as a 30 round 223 mag.

    • avatarDonS says:

      I get what you’re saying, but your analogy needs some editing. Replace “70″ with “75″, “80″, or “85″. Plenty of places you can legally go 75MPH on public roads in this country. Apparently, there are now some roads in TX posted at 85MPH.

      And we’re not even considering driving on private property, where you can legally drive as fast as you please.

    • avatarEsh325 says:

      I would feel totally confident defending my life with a Remington 870 with 10+1 in a home defense situation. Like I said, there are many more common ways people die than not having enough cartridges or shells in their magazine.

      Actually, I think a speedometer would be a great idea for reducing fatalities on the road.

    • avatarDonS says:

      “you can’t find a place in the us that you can legally go over 70mph”

      Nitpick:

      Plenty of places in the USA where you can drive on public roads in excess of 70 miles per hour. For example, a new toll road in Texas is posted at 85; I-25 between Colorado Springs and Denver is mostly 75. I-80 between Reno and [at least] Cheyenne is mostly 75.

      Of course, this ignores private property, where you can drive as fast as you please.

      ETA: and even in places where the speed limit is 70, a speedometer that shows higher than 70 would be useful to the driver so that he knows he’s speeding.

    • avatarBob says:

      How about when the police and military go with 10 round mags, maybe then I’ll concede.

      Oh wait, I forgot about those pesky criminals who don’t obey laws…

  11. avatarNick in CA says:

    The “magazine safety law” they reference is the fact that California requires semi automatic pistols to have a magazine disconnect safety. This affects only models added to the CA DOJ Safety Roster after 2005 (I think). This is in addition to a 10 round capacity limit.

  12. avatarRag Doll Salty says:

    Imagine how differently this would’ve been reported if the “mainstreamnewspeakmedia” had its way:

    When officers arrived, they found one angelic looking child – 24 year old Trayvon Fecalcritter – fatally, brutally wounded; the child was pronounced dead at the scene. The old evil, white REPUBLICAN Tea Party member slumlord was also shot many times – in self defense by all three of the brutalized children – and was transported (slowly, so as not to take up space for worthy injured folk) to a hospital with a non-life threatening scratch.

    Another poor, innocent soul, 21 year old Thomas Ordained, who was injured in the racist shooting was later commended for surviving the assault by the evil homeowner who used a deadly weapon and accessory on the poor youth.

    A third innocent, law abiding person, who police would not name, showed up at a local hospital with gunshot wounds. It’s unclear how this unnamed God fearing person lived through the terrible incident, but was commended by police…

  13. avatarDrVino says:

    I don’t live in Sac, but if you read the comments on one of those links, there is a suggestion this may be a sketchy neighborhood – although street shots in the video don’t necessarily suggest that….
    Some commenters on that page suggest possible drug involvement.
    I can neither confirm nor deny.
    Each alternative colors the situation differently. After all, criminals have kids too and those kids also have sleep overs.

    • avatarSanchanim says:

      I know this area. It isn’t what I would call a bad area, call it working class. It is near two schools, and butts up against highway 5.
      Not sure about the drug thing, but it is not East Oakland or like some areas in Chicago if that is what they were suggesting.

  14. avatarRalph says:

    I hate a$$h0les, but I will defend your right to be one. It seems to be working out just fine.

  15. avatarRandy Drescher says:

    Whether the AR itself or 10 round mags, the only thing we need to prove is that the life of an AR owner/hi cap mag owner MIGHT be lost if not for these items. As we all know you can say or do or have anything if only one life is saved. Its too late for them to backpedal on that, they’ve drilled that into their braindead followers for years. Can we prove in court that an AR with a hi cap can save a holders life? No problemo, Randy

  16. avatartdiinva says:

    California is doing its best to disarm its residents just as it is going bankrupt and jurisdictions are laying off police officers at a record clip. Soon it won’t be the cops and thugs with guns. It will be just the thugs. California will look like Mexico in a couple of years.

    • avatarAlphaGeek says:

      I’m not sure you have a clear picture of the dynamics in play here. We are fighting a holding action at the legislative level, but CalGuns is kicking ass on the judicial front. Sacramento county is now shall-issue CCW, for example.

      Yes, Leland “guns kill babies” Yee is doing his level best to pass ridiculous AWB enhancements before being termed out, but his clock is ticking. At ground level, the number of gun owners and people active in shooting sports of all sorts is growing rapidly.

  17. avatarGregolas says:

    Just this afternoon I had a coversation with a friend who’s not sure about the recent gun ban proposals. He asked if I thought the reduced-round requirement was sensible. As I mimicked reloading I explained how quickly a 10-rd mag could be replaced by another, and that the increased change times(provided I had enough 10-rounders) would buy the victims at most a few more seconds of life.
    He smiled and replied “I feel MUCH safer now.”

    • avatarAlphaGeek says:

      So… Was that a good response or a negative one? Hard to read the tone from your comment.

      • avatarAPBTFan says:

        Good response to me for showing the futility of mag limits.

        • avatarGregolas says:

          AlphaGeek,
          It was a good response, I guess I didn’t describe it well. He was being sarcastic of the usefulness of 10-rd limits once that I’d demonstrated the ease of feeding mags into a weapon.

      • avatarAbdo says:

        Remember that the vote was 5-4, Maybe they figure they can drag it out long euognh, it will go the other way eventually. It isn’t like Daley has budget worries or anything else to occupy his time, or that he’d want to distract people from….!I hope you had a great 4th of July!David That’s exactly Daley’s plan. When he loses the case on this regulatory scheme, he’ll reply with one that is only 99% as bad, then wait for that one to go through the court system. He can do that indefinitely, until there are 5 Wise Latinas and Brilliant Butches.Remember, it’s not his money. He has unlimited funds for litigation, from taxing people like Otis McDonald. If Chicago runs out of money, does anybody doubt that Obama will bail them out?

  18. avatarscooter says:

    Just had a home invasion with kidnapping here in Jefferson County, Missouri. In the show me state when they kick the door and say show me the money we can show them we believe in castle doctrine. Mag limits? I have a matte stainless CZ 75 with a 26 round giggle stick. First time I ripped out the chest on a paper bad guy with that thing at the range the string of consecutive pops got some looks! I highly recommend CZ pistols. I have an old beater CZ 82 in 9×18 that is as accurate as my Buckmark .22.

    • avatarAPBTFan says:

      A CZ-75 has been on my wish list for years. I own a 1911 and a Hi-Power and only need a CZ to complete my personal “greatest semi handguns” trifecta.

  19. avatarstateisevil says:

    People in a defensive position face a different dynamic than those on the offensive. The offense is better prepared and has the element of surprise. Assuming the offense couldn’t find a 30 round mag (very unlikely) he’d take 3 10 round mags and reload. The victim, not expecting an attack may have one mag at his immediate disposal. May as well carry as many as he thinks convenient. This is why the police have “high capacity” magazines.

    • avatarRybred says:

      +1000
      this is what i always try to tell everyone!

      • avatarGregolas says:

        Excellent tactical analysis Stateisevil. Self-defense almost always starts with the good guy behind the curve, reacting, in or out of the home. Antis don’t know that b/c they rarely think seriously about anything.

    • avatargringito says:

      >>>”This is why the police have “high capacity” magazines.”
      Makes sense…
      And what did you say was the reason why normal law abiding citizens as you and me have to rely on a 10 round mag?

  20. avatarMatt in SD says:

    I’m very interested if we get more details about the exact scenario, timeline and firearms used. It sucks that the homeowner got shot, but imagine if he comes out saying that he got shot because he was reloading. Certainly glad he was able to defend himself and his family.

  21. An excellent case for why “single shot guns” are useless as defensive weapons.

  22. avatarSelousX says:

    I miss not living close to my mom, but when she moved back down to the People’s Republik of Kalifornia, I said good-bye to seeing her on a regular basis. It’s not worth not having the rights as a gun owner here in WA to be close to her.
    Every time I see a news report come from the Sacramento area I hope it’s not involving her. She’ll never own a gun, and so I pray for her safety every night, but I know that’s only going to go so far.

  23. avatarCrunkleross says:

    We can’t allow the discussion to be about the magazine capacity of guns. These mass murders kill all the defenseless people they want to until a good guy with a gun shows up.

    The gun control issue is fought on an emotional level, too often pro gun supporters get caught up in the minutia of technical gun terms, we must find a way to counter the bogus emotional arguments drummed out by the anti’s.

  24. avatarbob says:

    I do not care for the title. Anti gun imbociles think it is true.

  25. How a “Zombie Apocalypse” could actually happen.
    http://scfhnet.dotster.com/Wordpress/conspiracy/

Leave a Reply

Please use your real name instead of you company name or keyword spam.