by Josh Wayner
Brace yourselves. Here comes another skirmish in the age-old war between the AK and the AR rifle families. The primary points of contention have always been contrasting ideas of reliability, lethality, and accuracy. The differences have polarized an otherwise likeminded group of individuals. Many of these individuals have even gone so far as to create whole institutions — or churches if you go that far — around their rifle of choice. They claim that their idea is “progressive”, or “constantly evolving”, yet all they end up doing is alienating many of their followers who are then left in an ideological pit because their favorite trainer feels their rifle is not good enough . . .
Division is the device of destruction, and any individual who divides based on selling a propped up product is doomed to fail. That being said, I will take on the issues at hand in a logical and rational manner while attempting to part the vast sea of complete bullshit that surrounds this argument. My breakdown is simple: dispense with the 7.62x39mm round.
The 7.62×39 round is central to all the contentious issues involved with the comparison of these two rifle systems. It’s the reason that the AK has its well deserved reputation for midrange power and barrier penetrating ability. By comparison, the AR, at least in 5.56mm, has gained the reputation of being anemic.
On the contrary, the 7.62×39 is also the reason why the AK is seen as inaccurate compared to the AR. The comparison has always been apples to oranges. A true comparison is seldom put to a real test for fear of showing the supposed weaknesses of each system. 2012 proved to be a year that Americans decided to break with convention and make the 300 AAC Blackout[1] our newest love interest. It has, in a way, made the7.62 x39 superfluous. But more on that later.
There have been many attempts to cram a .30 caliber bullet in the AR. The AR, mechanically speaking, has a difficult time handling the extremely tapered cartridge of the7.62 x39. The direct gas operation common to most ARs combined with the powerful thrust forces imparted onto the bolt by the tapered cartridge, are very hard on the operating system. They also force weaknesses to be built in when chambering an AR in 7.62×39 such as reduced bolt strength, magazines of decreased capacity and odd shape, and increased fouling due to dirtier surplus or imported ammunition.
There have been attempts, some recent, to marry the AR to the 7.62×39[2], but this brings on a whole list of new problems, the first of which is the use of unique and non-standard parts. The AK system, on the other hand, has never seemed to have an issue moving to a smaller caliber.
Because of the decision made by the military during the Vietnam era, the AR has remained in continuous service longer than any other American small arm[3]. Yet, the proponents of the AK have never let the AR crowd forget the jungles it was thrust into. It’s shocking how fresh the problems encountered in Vietnam still are in the minds of some potential AR buyers. It’s truly amazing that these issues have stuck to what is now one of the weapons we know the most about. But you have to keep in mind that the two rifles evolved from completely different design concepts and were intended for different purposes.
The AK system never graduated from its original manufacturing base the way the AR has. It is, and always will be, a child of the Second World War and the product of a society devoid of any reason to advance it. The 7.62×39 has held the AK system back. No matter how many companies make modernization kits or products to enhance the AK’s performance, they are just adding pearls to the pig. ‘
There are certain gun trainers pushing rifles that defy the traditional AK profile, some costing thousands of dollars more than what a standard AK. But at heart, they are just sad imported rifles decorated with the latest in fancy rails and grips. These blinded-up guns don’t offer any advantage. The limits placed upon the AK system are directly related to the American usage of the 7.62×39 round. The low cost of the rifles and ammo, combined with the general inability of the American shooting public to understand the system, have created a culture in which the sole argument for buying an AK is price alone.
The AR family, on the other hand, has evolved by way of an explosion of innovation, where new ideas are constantly introduced and there’s virtually no limit to what a shooter is able to do with their lower receiver. Hunters, competitors, police, soldiers, home defenders and entrepreneurs have all embraced the AR because it can be tailored to meet almost any need.
It fights our wars, kills enemy and game alike, can win national competitions and switch calibers in seconds. It’s truly the arm of the thinking man. Americans have become attached to the AR because it represents the freedom of choice and the kind of non-linear thinking that makes America great.
The AK, however, is trapped by the limits its design have imposed and the fact that the only viable commercial option is the 7.62×39, which in a way is reminiscent of the line of thought used by the rifle’s creators; the AK was intended to limit user choice. The overall lack of inherent accuracy, poor build quality and horrible triggers found on most off-the-shelf AKs extend to almost all makes models. Given its shortcomings, the AK system has lasted longer than it ever had a right to.
The wide availability of the 7.62×39 is another problem that confronts the cartridge. A quick Internet search reveals that a case of 1000 rounds of 123gr FMJs runs $239.00 shipped. This is for foreign steel-cased ammo. American made FMJs run a whopping $700.00 per thousand shipped. Ammunition of comparable quality such as a case of 1000 5.56 62gr green tip round runs $500.00 shipped[4]. The new 300 AAC Blackout retails approximately $550.00 for 1000 rounds of 115gr ammunition[5].
The point is the market for the 7.62×39 — and the AK itself — is reliant on inexpensive imports. This is also a handicap as the ammo tends to be a great deal less consistent than American manufactured rounds and may be subject to, God forbid, future ammunition importation bans.
But the biggest blow to the 7.62×39 came recently in the form of AAC’s 300 Blackout. This round will, over time, eclipse the 7.62×39 in America. One of the primary arguments against the AR has always been the 5.56/223 round. It has a rep for spotty lethality and poor terminal effect. Bullet development in the last decade has largely solved this, at least civilians, whereas the military is still issued ammunition of debatable quality. ‘
The .30 caliber, though, is and will probably always be the favored bullet diameter of American shooters. There’s a mental association with this bullet diameter that dates back more than a century. It has been chosen over other (possibly better) options developed by designers of classics such as Garand[6].
The .30 caliber almost instills confidence in the shooter. Despite its small size, my own 300 AAC Blackout pistol was hailed as a “real gun” by several individuals who fired it. That came after drilling targets at 300 yards out of an 8.5 inch barrel. My own AK-74 was fired alongside it, but only merited a passing “that’s cool, man.”
With the 300 Blackout, Americans now finally have a means to use a standardized, SAAMI-accepted cartridge in their ARs that matches or beats the 7.62×39. Better yet, it does not require extensive modification to the AR platform to use like the 7.62×39 would. The ability to deliver a .30 caliber bullet out of America’s sweetheart in a way that’s backed by a growing number of companies demonstrates the American public’s desire for .30 cal confidence in their weapons.
The 300 Blackout represents a chance for the AR to rise above the persistent belief of some that it’s a toy or lacks the lethality of the AK. The Blackout has the ability to kill (commercially, of course) the 7.62×39. It’s a death that should be welcomed for the sake of furthering a superior platform.
Overall, the 7.62×39 has been the reason for much strife in the shooting community. The 300 AAC Blackout may be able to rehabilitate the reputation of the AR in the power and lethality departments. The modern AR is every bit reliable as the modern AK, but in a different way.
The combination of mechanical functionality, repeatable intrinsic accuracy and definitive lethality are paramount to a successful weapon design. The AR excels at all of the above, and does so in a way that doesn’t limit the user. The 7.62×39 fired from an AK is a thing of the past; a relic kept alive by widespread distribution, low price and perceived superiority. The Mp3 player surpassed 8-track for lots of very good reasons. There may still be a few who argue that the 8 Track is pretty mean with a good set of speakers, but that doesn’t make them right.
[1] http://300aacblackout.com/, October 4, 2012
[2] http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=558, October 4, 2012
[3] Rose, Alexander. American Rifle-A Biography. 2008; Bantam Dell Publishing.
[4] http://www.ammoman.com/, October 4, 2012
[5] http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/, October 4, 2012
[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.276_Pedersen October 4, 2012
.300 Blackout throws a lighter bullet slower than x39. It’s a crappy compromise at best. Plus since the primary purpose is for suppressed use you have very fast twists that way over stabilize the lighter projectiles and give you hideous accuracy.
7.62×39 in something like a CZ mini Mauser is easily capable of 1 MOA.
7.62×39 is also the basis for the PPC line of wildcats which are among the most accurate cartridges in the world. Don’t blame the AK’s inaccuracy (due to intentional design elements) on the 7.62×39.
Exactly, the reason the AK is so reliable is that it utilizes huge, heavy, and loose-fitting pieces to overcome fouling and inconsistent ammo.
I consider the 7.62×39 to be no better nor worse than the 5.56, they are just different cartridges for different purposes.
Excepting, the 7.62 X 39mm , bullet to be twice as heavy, wider, and has the ability to “Pentrate”!… [ Where,
these other fall behind!...].
The PPC is necked down to a 6mm and shot only in a bolt action making it a whole different round into itself. Its also a barrel burner so less likely to become a round the public likes to shoot.
Agreed. This article has nothing to do with the 7.62×39 cartridge. The wild variability in quality among AK type rifles is the only thing on trial here. That said, those who want an accurate AK in 7.62×39 certainly have options.
There’s nothing interesting or new in this article. It reads like a new gun owner picked up an AR instead of an AK and is trying to justify his purchase by eliminating any other choice–which is exactly what you get in a forum flame war. Perhaps most telling is the author’s complete ignorance of the 5.45×39 cartridge as well as other implementations of 7.62×39 (like the awesome CZ 527 which is also available in 5.56×45).
Even the Soviets wanted something better than the 7.62 x39, which is why they went with the AK74 and its round which is even smaller than the 223.
The article is that that the 7.62X39 time has come. As many active rifles on the world market, the 7.62X39 is not going away.
And a lot of Soviet weapon designers and officers questioned that decision, Kalashnikov himself chief among them, as copycatting Americans for no reason. My stepdad was a Soviet Army officer in Afghanistan back in 80s, and, according to him, while AK-74 was standard issue, they always scrounged AKMs when they could, preferably so that at least a couple of men in a squad – mainly to get that extra mud-brick-punching penetration when necessary.
If I recall correctly, Kalashnikov was firmly against the caliber change
While we’re purifying the ammo gene pool, let us cleanse Mother Earth of the atrocious .22lr, shall we? What a grotesque, disgusting, dirty little round. And don’t get me started on its limitations…
Whose existence is based on it’s low price! LOL!
uuuuh why? its freakin cheap to shoot!! and fun too! and oys proven that it CAN be lethal!!
…just like 7.62×39!
damn straight!
really are you serious? its one of the finest rounds ever made. an sorry its not going away ever. you don’t like it. buy something else
What is this “lack of inherent accuracy” you speak of in an AK. The AKs of me an my fellow range owners have all been extraordinary. I’ll give up the 7.62×39 when 300 BLK becomes available in alternate rifles. Using the people’s reaction at the range to justify an arguement merits you nothing. If I saw that AR pistol chambered in a 30 I would think that’s cool. The AK 74 that you have isn’t even .30 it’s 5.45. If it is a typo, then I would LOVE the AK. OPINIONS HAVE NO PLACE IN A FACTUAL PAPER. Watch this space for any other issues I see.
Oh, and maybe there’s a reason they have tried to put the 7.62×39 in an AR. ‘Cause it is still useful and relevant.
Oh, and just because the AR is having issues accepting the 7.62×39 just means the platform isn’t right for it, not the round is a bad choice.
An excellent discusion on which cartridge is second best. Since we are not running around all geared up with 75lbs of stuff and probably won’t need to carry 200 rounds of ammo the M-1 or M-1A are the sin quo non of semiautomatic rifles. They have unmatched hitting power and accuracy. Whether you are long range target shooting or hunting large North American game up to.500 yards, a 308 or 30-06 is in the major leagues. 5.56 or 7.62 x 39 is strictly in the minors.
This article isn’t about the .308, is it?
Lars, your’re right. But tdiinva is right too.
hunting ya battle rifle no 200 yards is the limit 30=06 sniper rifle ya you need a shorter an lighter an less kick gun for battle. i give you m1 was like Paton said its the gun that won the war. but real battle rifle no no
Premise, ya. Coherence, no. Two months is the limit reviving old posts, ya? You need a timely an understandable response for discussions. I’ll give you carbines shoot faster, and our war fighters use them. But a real “battle rifle” is a defined term, no? (1903, Garand, FAL, M14) No?
“No matter how many companies make modernization kits or products to enhance the AK’s performance, they are just adding pearls to the pig.”
How is that any different than covering an AR in Magpul furniture? The base platform is still the same, with extra do-dads hung on it.
An AK can be just as accurate as an AR. Compare a 5.56 SLR to an AR and both will be great shooters.
Who the hell is Josh Wayner and what is he trying to say?
The Blackout will never be a popular commercial round, it isn’t superior to the 7.62×39 in any way as a matter of fact. Hell, it might be the end of both A rifles as we know them come February.
And where are these 239 dollar 1,000 rounds? Last I looked all of the online ammo sites were out of everything.
due to recents events EVERYTHING went out of stock and price skyrocketd 400%… or were you sleepong this whole time?
Also, Glocks are inherently superior to 1911′s. Say while we’re chatting is that bridge you live under rent controlled?
and the hi point c9 is mo betta than han solo’s DL-44 too.
I like the AK as a cheap, tough, accurate enough CQB rifle. Ammo is cheap, and nasty at ranges in which I would ever want to fight.
I think ARs are exceptional rifles, but ammo cost matters to me. I am a cheap bastard.
True, Tim. i got a Russian SKS for 99 bucks and picked up a Mosin on the same day for 60 bucks. That has been a few years but the guns are still good to go and the cost of surplus ammo for the pair is much cheaper than any 5.56 or .308 I’m aware of. Even now I can still get a mosin for about a 100 bucks.
It’s the same reason I shoot 9mm. I’m not aware of a cheaper center fire pistol round to practice with.
i got a Russian SKS for 99 bucks and picked up a Mosin on the same day for 60 bucks. That has been a few years
jwm, I’ll bet it’s been more than a few years. The cheapest MN91/30s that I see right now are $99, and SKSes for $290 at Centerfire. They’re both great guns. I especially love me those MNs.
Ralph, in the 90′s you could buy an SKS or a MN at gunshows and shops for that or less if you really hunted. And even here in California they were classed as Curios and Relics and under the law then there was no waiting period on a C&R gun. You paid your money and walked out with just one paper filled out.
I bought both of mine at a gunshow at the Alameda county fairgrounds. Since then they’ve banned gun shows at the fairgrounds and the rifles have a 10 day wait like every thing else.
this is NO TIME FOR A CALIBER DEBATE. smoke ‘em if you got ‘em.
I have a dream that one day, down in Chicago and New York and DC with its vicious antis, with its governors having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in small town USA, little AR boys and AR girls will be able to join hands with little AK boys and AK girls as sisters and brothers.
AMEN Brother Paine!!!!
This has to be the funniest but simultaneously the most motivational thing I have read all month
And we’ll be singing, when we’re winning, we’ll be singing, I get knocked, down but I get up again, you’re never gonna keep me down. . .
Sorry. I got a little carried away by the spirit of things. Maybe I had a whisky drink, and a vodka drink, and a lager drink, and a cider drink.
Okay, Thomas’ comment was motivational but the funny just got one upped by Ralph.
I havent heard that song in a long time
The AK and it’s ammo were designed to function in the direst circumstances, hence the tapered case. The AK has heavier moving parts hence it’s lower accuracy.
the AR has light weight parts hence it’s lower reliability
1000′s of people have been trying to make an AR as good a combat weapon as the AK for decades; I think that’s a huge CLUE
Let me know when you can shoot poor quality ammo in any ar let it sit dirty for a year take it out smack the bolt handle to bust it loose from rust put a mag in and fire it
Sure the 5.56 / 6.5 / 6.8 / 300 BLK / .458 Socom / .50 Beowulf is more accurate and versatile than the 7.62 x 39 / AK platform. The AK is also cheaper, and takes a beating.
You know what, as long as I have the freedom to buy either, it’s all fine by me!
Poorly written and bias article.
Have to agree.
.300BLK kool-aid overdose.
+1
TTAG is infected with it.
yeah wtf is this sh*t?
Awesome.
I want both. With bayonet lugs, an end to the NFA, and the elimination of the ATF.
And I agree with your findings.
It can’t totally the round’s fault or the rifle. Both have some
serious pro and cons. As a whole the 762×39 especially
foreign made is rough. Put the same ammo in a higher end
firearm, like a mini 30, and it becomes a decent carbine
cartridge. Also look at the AK platform itself. Comparing
a Yugo stamped AK to a Polish milled AK is almost
apples and oranges. The AK was made ground up with the
762×39 to be an indestructible close to mid range combat
weapon. In that it excels.
The AR platform was designed to use the pistol cartridge
556×45. Ballistically speaking through accurate to
further ranges it really shines at 200m or less. The AR
platform does have more in the way of customization.
However, it could be argued that this is because people
are trying to get the rifle to perform in areas it was not
designed for.
I’d also point out that since the 762×39 can uses a .30
shell there’s a lot more leeway in reloading. The larger
size also makes reloading a bit easier, in regards to
calibration anyway. With the 556×45 your pretty much
limited to buying nato rounds.
I think the 300AAC may be a wildcat for a while. Some
conversions in platforms outside ARs would help.
That said for mid to long ranges everyone will stick to
308 or 3006. But the battle between the AR and AK
is still going to come down to preference, not
necessarily performance.
Strange all this have to buy Polish crap. Ive seen Romanian AKMs beat Polytech Legends and Bulgarian and Polish milled AKs.
I didn’t mean to refer to Polish AKs as a whole
or that others weren’t better. I was trying to
illustrate the variance in AKs can be anything
from crap to ones as high end as a Colt.
Due to their widespread use, as well as massive
changes in economic conditions, AK quality
depends a lot on who, where and when.
Insert token AR vs AK flamewar comment here:
The article does get one thing right: comparisons are apples vs oranges. They’re 2 completely different rifles, the product of different philosophies in engineering and war fighting. Why not love both?
In any case, I think it would be amusing for someone to build an AK chambered in 300 Blackout. Then we could have the 300 Blackout AK vs 300 Blackout AR shoot-out! (literally)
Trying to say that one type of gun is better than another, or that one caliber is better than another, is like trying to say that cars are better than trucks, or that one model of car or truck is better than another model. You may be entirely correct in a particular claim about the numbers a cartridge or a car produces, but still miss the point entirely.
If I need to shoot a deer or defend my home, both rifles and calibers will do the job to my satisfaction. If I need to commute to work or go grocery shopping, both vehicles will do the job to my satisfaction. If I need to do something specialized, like tow a boat or take a shot out past 100m (think hunting or home defense as the common default options), then I may need more specialized equipment, but even then, it’s like arguing Ford trucks vs Chevy. I’ve owned both. And even though in my experience one was completely superior to the other, they both got the job done.
Never was a lover 7.62×39 either. Its inferior to the US 5.56mm And your wrong AK-101 and AK in 5.56mm had many problems with jamming and or too much gas escaping the system which leads to feeding issues. The Polish Army is dumping the Beryle AK-101 for a new rifle.
However I think the AK-74 in 5.45mm is the best of both worlds and 5.45mm can match 5.56mm in many respects.
Two things: Yugo M67, and hollow bullets. The first one is 7.62 which is desgned to yaw and tumble(and is effective at that) and the second one is currently used in the 5.45. It means that the bullet is hollow(not like a hollow point) which makes it tumble faster, and more likely to tumble arguably making it a improved 5.56 bLlisticaly speaking.
If you’ve personally experienced “AK in 5.56mm had many problems with jamming and or too much gas escaping the system which leads to feeding issues” then you’ve had a poor quality build.
All the AK’s I’ve built in 5.56 run like champs.
If any of what you were saying were true, why does 5.45×39 cycle so reliably even though it has less pressure than 5.56?
Not really almost all East European nation except Poland dumped 5.56mm AKs some never adopting them due to issues. Bulgaria adopted the AK-103 basically in 7.62×39. Some nation outside Russia in Europe stay with 5.45mm rds. Some of this is 5.56 and 5.45 are two different technology 5.45 uses AK tech and is canted case and allows the AK loose action to reliably use such ammo less so with 5.56 which meant to use the Stoner (M-16) action all tight tolerances. they dont mix to well.
Even if any of that were true, the Galil served Israel well for decades without any of those problems.
I also haven’t been able to find any evidence supporting countries adopting the AK101, then switching back to some other variant.
Again, I haven’t heard any evidence to support what you’re saying, but the internet is a big place. If you’ve got links to support it please share them.
Yep, AK, same here, I have a VEPR .556, it shoots as reliably as any other AK and I get inch groups at a hundred yards, plus, I have an adapter that allows me tu use AR mags as a back up.
The best of both worlds.
The myth of AKs chambered in 5.56 being unreliable is true, but has to do solely with the mags. When they first appeared, the cheaper ones (which most people naturally went for – hey, it’s an AK) had 5.45 mags “converted” to 5.56 by stamping “5.56x45mm” on them. Given that round dimensions are actually different, no surprise that this didn’t work out to well.
An AK in 5.56 with Bulgarian waffle mags is as reliable as any other AK, and as accurate as your average AR; my own SLR-106 is a testament to that.
Excellent, thoughtful writing. It’s nice to see such a cogent exploration of American shooters’ “mental associations”, as you call them. We’ll look forward to your future contributions.
I’m fortunate enough to own examples of both rifles discussed here. Depending on your objective, one’s no better than the other really. Strengths, weaknesses, they can be discussed ad nauseam. What matters to me the most is the huge enjoyment I get from these guns at the range. I wouldn’t give up either type, one doesn’t make me smile more than the other. And although it’s not a scientific test, when I take mine out in public they both get equal attention from spectators.
Nice essay Josh, thanks for your contribution.
You know I’m very disappointed in you Dan. I started reading hoping for a fact based and non-biased comparison of the two rifles. Instead all we got was you spewing hatred for the non-American rifle. Poor form, Dan. Poor form.
My bad, I see after re-reading that it was written by Josh but submitted by Dan. Still, I don’t see how this ever got approved.
This has to be one of the most myopic opinion pieces I have yet to read here. I think you get just about everything wrong. The AK is a different rifle built for a differen purpose than the AR and its differences have very little (but some) to do with the 7.62×39.
This “article” is very weak sauce indeed.
I am dying for for firearms related content but y’all can do better than this.
Unfortunately, I have to agree. I re-read twice to ensure I wasn’t reading too much into it, but the bias towards/disdain against, was apparent throughout.
300AAC is interesting from a suppressed and/or SBR standpoint, but is the subject of a metric crap-ton of gun rag hype. It suffers from the same ‘downside’ of the x39… ballistics at great distances. It is however difficult to argue the effectiveness of 7.62×39 in close-medium range engagements.
6.8SPC actually does have the potential to be a paradigm shift for the AR platform, but that potential doesn’t automatically negate the usefulness of the x39 either.
who cares. i have both and i love them like my own children. you just cant decide which one to love more. they both perform and do their duty 100%
Did not see much of anything in this article that actually backed up the statement that “the 7.62X39′s time has come” other than opinion. Article is a bit weak on presenting facts backed with data and appears based mainly on speculation and opinion. 7.62X39 and 300 blackout are equal because the writer says so. Pretty much leaves it up to the reader to go investigate this as well as other opinions presented.
1) Present your argument. 2) Provide factual data. 3) Provide Examples.
Pretty much did not get past step 1.
And while we are at it the title is completely mis-worded. The appropriate title would have stated “Time Has Past”.
Truly poor editing
I keep hearing Inigo Montoya in my head. “You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means. “
this reads like a commercial
Who shoots guns with out shoes on?
This “article” reads more like a forum-rant than something I’d see on TTAG. Disappointing.
Move along, no bias here.
Can we post the ASCII image of Picard facepalming? Of all the guns and cartridges that I wouldn’t mind seeing go away (seriously, the market for cartridges is nuts, I’d love some culling) those two are nowhere near the list. They’re excellent at what they’re meant to do. And what they’re meant to do needs doing–these aren’t solutions in search of a problem like some cartridges (cough 22 TC cough).
For 100 yards or less, any Marine will tell you he would rather have the knock down power of the AK than a 5.56, at least if he’s knowledgeable and honest. However, I think I’d rather have a 6.5 Grendel than either. It looks like it is better than both
I think .308 is the best option for either an AR or AK.
The point of 7.62×39 was that is was lighter then the 7.62x54R so that soldiers could carry more ammo. Same motivation for moving from 30-06 to 5.56.
I think something has to be said by the Russians moving from 7.62×39 to 5.45×39. They moved in the smaller caliber for a reason…. even more ammo and capacity.
That all said… I love shooting 7.62×39 out of AK’s the most regardless.
Having shot 1,000′s of rounds of 5.56 and 7.62×39 my personal choice at distances less than 300 meters is always going to be the AK in 7.62×39.
The 5.56 may be fast but it will not rip through brush/scrub like the 7.62×39 does and still maintain a modicum of accuracy.
Anything over 300 meters then I am going with my Nagant 7.62x54R or a .308Win or even my M1 Carbine with hand loads.
The 5.56 just doesn’t have the ass to cut brush, stay somewhat accurate and still take out close or medium range targets.
7.62×39 will, and the round itself is still cheaper to reload overall.
Just the opinion of someone who has fired a heck of a lot of these rounds for rifle quals for many years.
Damn. Had me all excited reading the title…”7.62x39mm’s time has come”. I thought maybe it had something to do with the fact that the AKM in 7.62x39mm flavor is the preferred weapon of rebels the world over (yes, yes, I know availability drives most of that) and America was about to return to it’s proud history of being revolutionaries. Turns out, this was just another article about someone trying to turn their M4 into an AK.
Hey, here’s an idea; stop trying to force every rifle into an M4/M16 platform. Good weapons, but not the holy grail of small arms. Honestly, most of the issues I’ve seen surrounding the AK and shooters complaints about the system come from trying to run the AK like an M4…two different systems, two different styles. Both lethal in trained hands (for what it’s worth, I narrowly outshot my Lieutenant the other week, me on my AK, he on his M4).
Now I have to go extinguish my torch and put the pitchfork away…don’t toy with my emotions again…
Badger 8-3
Ok
If you want losers to come up to you at the range and validate you as a “real man” then you are a childish kook. Don’t forget that the main purpose of that AK74 and .300 BLK rifle is to hunt and kill men; if you aren’t already a real man then put down the tools.
I am sickened by the irony of this post; you offer up your ridiculous opinions but then go to great lengths to cite your sources? It seems like you are pandering to 15 year old kids arguing about their favorite gun in Call of Duty. Drop us both in the jungle, I’ll take my WASR and you can choose the gun that the other guys tell you is the most badass.
>300 AAC Blackout…It has, in a way, made the 7.62×39 superfluous.
Paper tiger.
I can shoot FOUR TIMES as much 7.62×39 as 300 BLK for a given amount of dollars.
A better shot with 7.62×39 is going to have a greater effect than a worse one with 300BLK. And the 300BLK shooter is never going to be able to run into Wally World or Academy or whatever and expect to find his ammo available.
TANSTAAFL.
This article is terrible.
Here’s x39 VS 300 bk cliff’s notes minus the author’s baloney:
1) The AR-15 is a great platform that has come a long way.
2) The 300 blackout will fill the role that many people would normally purchase an AK for.
3) The 300 blackout is an OK round. It is a decent substitution, not a replacement for, the 7.62×39. It is ideal for suppressed SBRs.
4) The AK is a good platform. It is typically not great beyond 200 yards, but it can be made to work out to 600 and beyond. I don’t see it dying out any time soon, even if only because of the unfounded and persistent rumor of AR unreliability.
5) 7.62×39 ammo will continue to effectively put deer in our freezers, and put people in the morgue the world over, as long as it exists.
Any rifleman worth his salt should be able to load, shoot within minute-of-bad-guy, clear jams and basic malfunctions, and perform basic field maintenance on both AR and AK platform rifles. Having at least basic proficiency with those two platforms nearly guarantees you’ll be ready to pick up a locally available rifle and defend yourself pretty any much anywhere in the world.
Also, economics trumps other considerations 99 times out of 100. Good luck declaring 7.62×39 irrelevant as long as we have Russian factories pumping out cheap export -grade ammo for the Western markets, especially the US.
I prefer AK and Dragunov SVD rifles , reason being is that you cant smuggle an AR or M110 SASS in flour bags. 300 BLK is a good round no denying but like everything else it has its purpose( to replace silenced submachine guns, while getting parts commonality) and while AR has 556>300BLK the AK has 7.62×39>9×39 which is also designed for suppressed use(only difference is that it is more powerfull than 300BLK)
@ lolinski
I love the Dragunov platform with one change, a good Schmidt and Bender Optic over the issued scopes.
The 7.62x54r in the Dragunov’s are a very lethal round for most any game animal. Hell I hunt hogs with my Nagant and open sights!! Wouldn’t try that with 5.56 in any weapons platform, just pisses the pig off!!
I also like high end scopes but I like the reticle on the issued scopes, a dream would be a 4-10x scope with fine ZRAK reticle(like svd just calibrated for 1.8 metres instrad of 1.7) but with quality of Schmidt & Bender or Swarowski.
+100 on the Swarowski scopes, if the cash is available Swarowski is the way to go. Have used their scopes and spotter scopes before and are top of the line in my opinion.
I liked the reticles on the issue scopes but the older ones we qualified with in the 1980′s seemed to be poorer built in regards to durability than newer versions.
Wish I could find a good Dragunov at an affordable price nowadays. It was one of the few high powered rifles I could shoot left or right handed without havin to change or adjust anything, just swap sides and keep firing.
Well I live in Norway which means I could import one(havent found out the price yet) and then I would have to send it in for review(800-1000$) to get it approved as a hunting rifle(which means I would have to slap on a “civilian” thumbhole stock which I could change later). And then I would have to contact Swarovski and see if they make custom reticles and offer SVD rail mounting option, would be expensive but worth it.(just to see the face of my friends who hunt with bolt action 3006)
LOL!! I know what you mean. Being in the US I can get one with just a background check and a heck of a lot of cash or credit cards!!
The last one I seen around my area was 1100USD and had a reproduction scope and mount, and althought the bore and mechanicals were in great shape the wood finish and condition were in very bad shape and the external finish on the metal was showing a lot of bluing worn completely off and numerous scratches along the barrel and reciever. Someone had really beat it around a lot in the woods it looked like.
12 years ago I priced a brand new SVD, with tax, & import cost it was going to cost me over 4400USD which is too far out of my price range. Having shot better than 2,000 rounds through various SVD’s I want one very very much. Will just have to be patient I guess!!
I know its not really classified as an AK but an arsenal saiga can be super accurate don’t get me wrong I love my ar but I love guns of all types also you don’t have to be in one group that has one gun
The 7,62×39 is a good, underrated little cartridge, that’s actually ideal for things like predator control on farms. In Canada, the AK-47 is ‘prohibited’ (very highly regulated), but some varieties of the CZ 858 are non-restricted, and there is even a special ‘Canadian’ version. Of course, there is also the good old, cheap SKS.
weird question, but I’d appreciate your honest input, gentlement :
If THE PRICE WAS THE SAME, would you choose the AK in 7.62×39, the AR in 5.56, the AR in 300blk, or the AK in 300BLK?
Personally I would, and DID, choose the AR in 300BLK. three times so far, and three more times in the near future, when my next set of 80% lowers comes in.
Part of the reason, is because if I’m grabbing an AR or an AK, it’s because for some reason, I’ve decided not to grab my M1A or AR10. So a gun in that class is a compromise anyway, a departure from a true “Battle Rifle”.
I think that the testing has shown (see SWATs “Filthy 14″, and numerous testimonials by Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers, re: Daniel Defense and Bravo Co) that the AR is plenty reliable. I think the testing has shown (see: all of Afghanistan, “The Gun” by C.J. Chivers) that the AK is plenty reliable.
But I think the 300 black has the game, in every regards EXCEPT PRICE.
And maybe if you picked up your next AR in 300 instead of 5.56, we’d see that price come down.
Wouldn;t you like to like in a world with less compromises? I would. SOMEDAY, the AR will be a 30 cal gun instead of a 22 cal gun, and the price won’t be any different. As people who HAD chosen the AK because they liked the 7.62 rounds effect on target switch to the AR in 300, we may see 300blk start to drop BELOW 5.56, so it’s then a simple Platform war, instead of a Caliber war.
That would make me happy…..
I’ll take a Tavor in 6.8spc.
I dunno, looking at the ballistics of 300 BLK vs the 7.62×39, the 300BLK comes up way short. 675m/s vs 2400m/s?!? I wonder how well the 300blk can penetrate out at 200 meters.
I am the last person you will hear touting the 300AAC as the Second Coming. To be fair though; it appears you are comparing the 220gr subsonic 300AAC to the supersonic 7.62x39mm.
A more accurate comparison would be against the 123(ish)gr 300AAC supersonic load.
I was comparing the 125gr 300blk. I confess I used Wikipedia though. The 220 subsonic appears to be similar to a .45 acp ballistics wise.
Umm, the current Russian military cartridge is the 5.45×39 in the AK74 and AK100 series platforms and the Nikonov AN94.
Does this mean the AN94 is more accurate than a M4? Is a M1 Garand less accurate than a SVD? Will a 38 Super bust the block in a Chevy Silverado?
And more ridiculous thereoms after the latest anti gun commercial from Hollywood…
Saul, now I’m curious. Is the Garand (with good, new parts) about as accurate as the SVD?
Is the OP a poorly written, but well placed diversion, from the most important issue since WWII, i.e. Can Obama defeat sacrosanct Constitutional Amendments by fiat decree?
Or is it just a poorly written, un-researched screed with no ulterior agenda?
Don’t know about everyone else, but I didn’t buy an AK to go to match shoots. That said, my cheap WASR 10 can hit center mass 30 out 0f 30 on a man-sized target at 200 yards using open sights. I know because I did it. If you want a tack driver get an AR platform. If you want unparalleled lethality and reliability (as in I can’t strip clean the damn thing every day) in SHTF or TEOTWAWKI situation get an AK.
Well said. My MAK-90 does everything I ask of it. It and my Mini-14 are two semi’s that have never hiccuped on me.
I think Dan knows how these AK/AR things go?
TTAG probabily has stats that say anything AK/AR will get a lot of attention/posts.
I have not seen a new gun/gear review in a while. (or not much of one).
So I think Dan threw this out here too give us some relief from all the AG stuff, and give us a chance to talk about something else for awhile.
JMHO
Guy22
If da clicks don’t come ya gotta dis some gun.
As Andy Warhol once said, “Somebody’s got to bring home the bacon.”
OK, here: “Why don’t you guys just admit that an AR or AK-design in any caliber just doesn’t have the home-defense flexibility of a good shotgun.”
After reading the article on Google Reader I grabbed my popcorn and clicked through, because I knew the comments were going to be a gold mine. I was not disappointed.
When the 300 BLK is down to 5 bucks a box for 20 I might consider giving up the 7.62×39…. maybe.
Since that will never happen I won’t have to worry abiout it.
No chance of it getting that far. The design has been around for about 20 years and it finally took Wilson and AAC to generate enough interest to sell it. Without a suppressor I don’t see any reason to have it. I remember when the 6.8 SPC was supposed to be the next greatest thing……
yup, someone is definitely drinking eugene stoner’s kool-aid.
Prolly nitpicky but Stoner originally designed the AR for the 7.62×51. I don’t think he was all that partial to the 5.56×45 other than the fact that that was what the military wanted.
I wonder how many folks on the receiving end of 7.62×39 fire would agree with this article.
I guess they would be chanting “the 7.62×39 fired from an AK is a thing of the past; a relic kept alive by widespread distribution, low price and perceived superiority.” over and over again.
The 300 AAC fired from the AR is a thing of disaster, a bad idea kept alive by widespread p$%^s envy, big pocket books, and a sense of superiority.
I really love people who write opinion articles but have a mediocre to armature understanding of the subject they’re addressing.
Fricken hipster gun writers suck.
I love shooting my AK-47 and the medium range power of the 7.62×39 cartridge. Over the last 5-6 years I have read the reviews of the 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, 300 Blackout, etc. I owned a Rock River Coyote in 6.8 SPC, I didn’t like it and I don’t think I’d be a fan of the 300 Blackout. I stick with cartridges that I’ve used effectively to hunt with in the field, this includes the 308 Winchester, 30’06 Springfield and the 7.62×39(AK-47).
I use to get caught up reading and sometimes believing the things I saw in gun mags and on the internet, no more. IMO none of the new specialty cartridges are inherently more or less superior than the more traditional ones that preceded them. The ranges that I hunt at are from 30 to 150 yards in southern woods; I have never had the chance to hunt at the extreme ranges found out west but if I ever do I think the 30’06 should be more than enough for my use.
Wish I had an AK 4 sure, but my 2 SKS’s are just fine. If I really want to reach out and touch someone I’ll just grab my old .270win b/a rifle.
LOL! My SKS works great, very accurate, no failures of any kind. Same for my M1 .30carbine. And my Marlin XL7 in .270win is very nice and accurate! Especially with a 6x24x50 AOE Red Dot Reticle Scope, a bipod and some good 150gr SJRN’s on board. And as backup my old Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R with handloaded 180gr SJSP’s will take most any critter I need to shoot at!
Let us examine the intermediate cartridge. Short to mid range (100m-300m max). Under powered rifle cartridge compared to full powered cartridges, MUCH more powerful than non-magnum pistol cartridges. When people become ok with these things, the 7.62×39 becomes a fabulous choice. I believe the real problem is that the average American will spend over $1,000 on an AR, yet is offended when a good AK runs over $500 to $600. I have an Arsenal 101 milled AK that is consistent 2 MOA with the cheapest ammo out there. Just my experience and it is good enough for me. My ARs (Colt, Ruger, Sig, custom build) won’t even think about reliably cycling cheap ammo. All in all, the AK is accurate enough for my purposes and VERY cheap to shoot when chambered in 7.62×39. IMHO.
I could not bring myself to read thru every reply but had to say the options provided by the 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel and others are a testament to the fact of ongoing innovation and that necessity is still the mother of invention. These are more likely reasons for the authors premise coming to be rather than the idea that the 762′s “time has come”. I do own a 6.8 SPC and it is an incredible round. Also own and use 5.56, 7.62×39 and others just to show I’m not prejudice.
I like my AR’s, I like my AK47′s, I like my AK 74′s, I like my .308 Mas 49/56′s, I like my Ruger Ranch rifle, I like my Mosin’s, I like my Springfields and Grands, my Mausers in 7&8mm, who did I forget? I like them all like my children, I just need to keep them fed.