World Records Set for .45 ACP Pistol at 600 and 200 Yards by Lippard 1911 A2 Handguns & Lippard 1911 A2/A3 Upgraded Pistols. Allegedly.

 

If Karl can shoot his .45 accurately at 600 yards without aiming it at the moon you can read this entire press release. Pictures of the blessed event? Video? Independent scientific adjudication. Uh no. (There’s just no pleasing you people.) Hey Michael! Michael Bane! Is this for real? C’mon Buddy. Spill.

On September 22, 2012, master gun maker Karl Lippard, President of Karl Lippard Designs in Colorado Springs, Colorado, along with George Wright, President of Ben Lomond Gun Club, Denver and Colorado Springs; Steve Davis, Monument, Colorado Chapter Director of Ben Lomond Gun Club; Randall Crumrine, President of Copper Crow Design and Consulting in Denver, and Scott McIntyre, President of McIntyre Corporation of Colorado Springs, as well as yours truly, Charles W. Henderson, writer and retired U. S. Marine, participated in a day of making  firearms history at the NRA Whittington Center, Raton, New Mexico. On that day, we established several World Records with the .45 ACP semi-automatic handgun . . .

Joining us at NRA Whittington Center, to document our World Record efforts, were Michael Bane and his television crew from his Outdoor Channel television show, Shooting Gallery, the most widely watch shooting sports show on television. Also there was retired U. S. Army Green Beret Lieutenant Colonel Robert Brown, publisher and editor of Soldier of Fortune magazine, along with members of his editorial staff. Colonel Brown is also a member of the NRA Board of Directors and served double duty at the event, writing coverage for NRA magazines, American Rifleman and American Hunter. I am also writing a feature about the Lippard 1911 A2 .45 ACP handguns and upgrades for Soldier of Fortune, which follows up a feature published in the SOF October edition.

Michael Bane will feature the Lippard 600 Yard World Record .45 ACP shooting event on his new season of Shooting Gallery, which we expect to see in early February. Currently Bane has told of the Extreme Range Pistol Shooting and World Records on his Down Range Radio podcast, which can be heard by clicking here.

Karl Lippard established the .45 ACP 600 Yard World Record, shooting from a seated position at a shooting table, his hands and pistol rested atop a small sandbag rest, putting 8 of 10 shots on target. Karl used his Lippard model 1911 A2 .45 ACP Combat NCO pistol with fixed, open sights, and shot Black Hills +P .230 grain jacketed hollow point, off-the-shelf ammunition.

Karl began the day of firing with fewer than 10 shots to establish his target hold (since he was using fixed, open sights), and in that “dope shooting” he shot one round in the X ring and two in the 10-ring, both at 12 o’clock. Then he shot for World Record, shooting 8 of 10 shots on target at 600 yards with the .45 ACP handgun, shooting with fixed, open sights, and recording a score of 38 points out of a possible 100 on the NRA MR-1 600 Yard High Power Rifle Competition Target.

After shooting for Record, Karl then repeatedly and consistently fired shots on target at 600 yards. He fired approximately 50 rounds at 600 yards, shooting numerous shots within the targets 36-inch black bull’s eye, and the vast majority of all shots striking on the six foot by six foot MR-1 NRA 600 yard 10X high power rifle competition target. While 38 points out of a 100-10X possible is a poor score for high power rifle competitors using powerful scope sights and full-stocked rifles with bull barrels shooting high power rifle ammunition, consider that Karl Lippard shot off-the-shelf .230 grain jacketed hollow point +P ammunition (moving at less than half the speed of most .30 caliber rifle bullets, thus doubly affected by windage and drift) from a 1911 A2 handgun with fixed, open sights with a sight radius of only 5-inches. And Karl is just a better-than-average pistol shot with 66 year old eyes, shaky hands and creaking joints. Therefore, the credit goes to the Lippard 1911 A2 new generation .45 ACP pistol, manufactured by Karl Lippard Designs in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

The new generation Lippard 1911 A2 .45 caliber semi-automatic handgun system holds a total of 22 U. S. Patents (7 patents now published and 15 patents pending), one of which is a full Handgun System Patent. The Lippard guns, which come in the Combat NCO, Close Quarters Battle Pistol and Combat Officer (conceal-carry) models, as well as all Lippard parts and components and Lippard Upgrade parts and components, are all made of Hammer Forged, S7 Vacuum-Arc, Remelt Tool Steel, composed of a special Lippard alloy that is the hardest, most durable steel made today. This steel does not warp or lose shape under changing temperatures, thus all Lippard parts are fully interchangeable, and merely “drop in” the gun. There is no grinding, honing or hand fitting. And all parts are made to exact precision space-age specifications. There is zero deviation from tolerances. Thus the Lippard A2 guns operate from extreme heat to extreme cold without stoppage, and even operate without lubrication. They literally eat sand and debris. The only time a Lippard pistol has stopped is when out-of-specification (too large) ammunition was attempted to be used in them, or a defective magazine was used and failed to properly feed.

The morning of September 22 was perfect for shooting. Wind was light and variable, predominately quartering from the right to the left. I called his windage for Lippard as he shot from the 600 yard line on the NRA Whittington Center 1,000 Yard Range.

The greatest problem that Karl encountered was the variance in the ammunition. Some rounds would shoot quite high and others quite low, grouping his shots at 11 and 12 0’clock high on the target and at 6 and 7 o’clock. The two shots that missed paper were due to this high variance in the ammunition. The Black Hills +P 230 grain JHP ammunition chronographed in  our preliminary testing at as low as 948 feet per second and as fast as 1,100 feet per second, while on the box, it was advertised at 950 feet per second. Thus at 600 yards, which is 200 yards beyond the Lippard Combat NCO pistol’s published maximum effective range, that variance in ammunition speed resulted in shots going quite high and quite low on the target. However, the exercise demonstrated without question that the Lippard 1911 A2 new generation pistol technology is solid, and enables effective suppression fire at 600 yards, while also proving itself as an effective combat weapon at battlefield ranges of 500 yards, 400 yards, 300 yards, and 200 yards.

We also tested Hornady Custom +P 230 grain Jacketed Hollow Point .45 ACP ammunition, which was also advertised at 950 feet per second but chronographed at 907 feet per second to 921 feet per second. We did not find any Hornady ammunition that fired anywhere close to 950 feet per second. Because the Hornady ammunition lacked sufficient speed to allow the fixed, open sights on the handguns to establish a consistent target hold at 600 yards, we did not attempt shooting for record with it. However, we did use the Hornady +P ammunition at 200 yards and found it quite consistent and very effective.

Needless to say, the media covering the 600 yard handgun shooting were quite impressed. Then we moved to 200 yards to demonstrate the real accuracy of the Lippard new generation technology in the .45 ACP handgun.

Karl Lippard shot a consistent group of 10 shots for 10 shots on target at 200 yards, grouping at 12 o’clock on the black and at 7 o’clock on the black. He shot from the same bench rest platform that he had used at 600 yards, and used the Hornady Custom .230 grain JHP +P off-the-shelf ammunition. Karl used his same Lippard model 1911 A2 .45 ACP Combat NCO pistol that he had used at 600 yards.

Then to demonstrate for the media how the Lippard A2/A3 upgrade vastly improves other makes of pistols, I used my own Colt Series 70, Mark IV US Government Model .45 ACP pistol in shooting Standing Off-Hand from 200 yards. To take this to the extreme, I stood in a recorded 17 mile per hour quartering cross-wind, Standing with One Hand holding the pistol, the other in my pocket, using the NRA National Match Pistol Stance, and shot on a 20 inch wide by 30 inch high silhouette target.  My Colt pistol had a full Lippard Upgrade, which employed the Lippard A2 Military Link, Lippard A2 Barrel and Lippard A2 Bushing, as well as the Lippard A3 Sear and Hammer system, along with the Lippard A3 Ambidextrous Safety, Lippard A2 Combat NCO Fixed, Open Sights, Lippard A2 Grip Safety, Lippard A2 Disconnector and Spring, Lippard A2 Ejector, and Lippard A2 Extended Slide Release.

For World Record, .45 ACP Pistol, 200 Yard Standing Off-Hand, National Match (one hand) Stance, Open, Fixed Sights, I shot 10 for 10 shots on target, scoring the first shot just off the black on the right side of the silhouette at lower abdomen level, scoring a 4, then the next shot, again adjusting for wind, hit just off the black on the left side. I corrected for wind again with my target hold (shooting fixed, open sights) and began putting shots in a group in the black, lower abdomen, favoring slightly left of center in the bull’s eye. I adjusted one shot up, trying to center, but that shot hit in the silhouette head. Still a shot in the black, but not center. Thus I adjusted back to my earlier target hold and finished my 10 shots. At the end of the string of 10 shots for record, I had shot 7 shots in a 10 inch group in the abdomen, one shot in the head (close to the ear), one shot just off the black on the left, but still could be considered part of the 10 inch group (giving a total of 8 shots in a 10 inch group at 200 yards) and one shot just off the black on the right. Thus, 8 of 10 shots in the black and all 10 for 10 on target at 200 yards!

Again, this was one hand, standing off-hand, shooting with a 17 mph quartering crosswind.

What is very important to appreciate is that I am not a Distinguished Pistol Shot, just a better than average pistol shot. Karl is likewise just a better than average pistol shot.

I would be extremely interested in seeing a Distinguished Pistol Shot, High Expert, shoot the Lippard 1911 A2 .45 ACP pistol and the Lippard A2/A3 Upgraded pistol of other brands at all distances, from 25 yards out to 500 yards.

Karl Lippard has designed Lippard A3 Adjustable Competition Pistol Sights. They were not yet finished at the fabricating plant in time for our NRA Whittington Center shoot, thus we had to shoot for record with fixed, open sights. However, a High Expert with Adjustable Sights—capable of adjusting out to 600 Yards—shooting the Lippard 1911 A2 pistol should be able to shoot a most impressive score at 600 yards and closer ranges.

With this gun and equipment, I can foresee a most entertaining new shooting sport—Extreme Range Pistol. Once you have taken up the challenge of Extreme Range Pistol, you will understand the fun that we experience with this shooting.

What we need now is more consistent .45 ACP ammunition to go with the gun.

Semper Fidelis, Frater Infinitas

Charles W. “Bill” Henderson

 

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About Robert Farago

Robert Farago is the Publisher of The Truth About Guns (TTAG). He started the site to explore the ethics, morality, business, politics, culture, technology, practice, strategy, dangers and fun of guns.

60 Responses to World Records Set for .45 ACP Pistol at 600 and 200 Yards by Lippard 1911 A2 Handguns & Lippard 1911 A2/A3 Upgraded Pistols. Allegedly.

  1. avatarST says:

    Well,good work.

    On a practical note,ill remember this if express robberies by bandits armed with .308 rifles become common.

  2. avatarJfoster says:

    .230 grains?

  3. avatarDrewN says:

    Hmm. Not to sound cynical, but you could fake this with someone firing suppressed from a hidden position ridiculously easily. Not to mention someone plinking at you from 600 yds away with a .45 isn’t going to “suppress” jack shit.

  4. avatarMD Matt says:

    So the big inovation for this gun was…drop in parts?
    The bullet drop charts aside, I’m not seeing what turns JMB’s masterpiece into a camp carbine with reach.
    Seriously, no lubrication? Space age parts? The strongest metal forgings? What do we have darpa fore? This guy is innovating the shooting world with his mad skills.
    Sorry Wilson Combat, just give up now…I call bullshit.

    • avatarLeo Atrox says:

      Some machining has to be done on the frame for the drop-in parts, but yeah … It is remarkable how the changes made affect the performance, according to these reports.

      It seems like the biggest change made on these Lippard guns is that the barrel link is wider, which supposedly makes it more stable and consistant. The bushing is also different. Assuming that you’ve got a perfect frame-to-slide fit, the bushing and barrel linkage alone determine the orientation of the barrel to the sights and frame when in battery. The more stable and consistent they are, the more accurate your 1911 is going to be. (All the other spaces within the slide and frame are hardly relevant to accuracy. They can be modified to handle debris better with little or no effect to accuracy.) Throw a nice trigger job and a properly ramped barrel on top of all that and I suppose it is possible to get the performance Lippard is advertising.

      I’ll admit that I’m intrigued. If I was a rich man–which I am not–I’d have already ordered one of his CQBP’s. I don’t know Lippard; but I am a Marine, and I am inclined to give a fellow Marine the benefit of the doubt. Charles W. Henderson’s word seals the deal for me. If he says it is so, then it probably is.

  5. avatarRalph says:

    With nothing but his trusty 1911, Karl Lippard shot a unicorn at 600 yards. In his pajamas.

    Lippard’s next record-breaking attempt will be to shoot the moon at perigee.

  6. avatarNDS says:

    I’m confused. Was he using fixed, open sights? The article did not make that clear.

    • avatarLeo Atrox says:

      Yes. The A2 sights Lippard used has a notched front sight. The top of the blade is standard pistol setup. The first notch down in 200 yards. Next down is 300 yards. The bottom of the front sight (where the site meets the slide) is 400 yards. He would have to have held up quite a bit more for 600 yards such that the slide would completely obscure his view of the target … Assuming he had the A2 rear sight. They did say it was fixed sights; but Lippard has an “A3″ adjustable rear sight set in prototype.

  7. avatarLLARMS says:

    So he finally demonstrates that it can be done in front of a crowd of well established people in the community, yet the Tier 1 armchair operators are still claiming foul.

    Going to piggy back off of Ralph here a bit; I have a feeling short of Mr. Lippard showing up at their home riding a unicorn and taking them to a range to show them first in what it has accomplished, the trolling will never cease.

    Cliche as it is; haters gonna hate.

    - Damien

    • avatarMD Matt says:

      I can appreciate what you’re saying here. Obviously, it’s got to be frustrating if this gentleman has accomplished this difficult task and the internets blindly dismiss his efforts. Perhaps some context is in order.
      First, I’m perfectly willing to give the man his due, provided he can build some credibility around his claim. This post, and all of the previous posts on the subject, read more as product advertisements than the recounting of a serious shooter’s crossing of a legendary milestone. It’s difficult for someone like me to accept the idea that a 1911 is a viable platform at 600 yards, the more so when the claim is sprinkled with repeated references to open sights, factory ammunition, and the shooters supposed average skills. Those references give the impression that Mr. lippard is trying to sell the moment to us too hard, as if the event itself isn’t enough. Anyone making a 600 yard shot (let alone 10 of them) with a 1911 would be entitled to accolades. The article’s attempt to put the credit for the shots on the gun rather than the shooter calls into question the credibility of the claim.
      Second, the claim itself is difficult to accept. Most shooters require a precision scope, rifle, and ammunition to make the kind of shot that is being described here. The idea of that shot being made with a 5 inch barreled 1911 by an average shooter with no optics and variable factory ammunition seems ludicrous. This is really the heart of the matter. I can name half a dozen custom 1911 replacement part manufacturers. Several of them are considered industry leaders. None of them make the magnificent claim that their parts turn JMB’s design into a 600 yard tack driver. Thus, I have to ask, which of the 17 patents listed in the article so revolutionize the design? What makes a gun that most people wouldn’t try at 100 yards with “fixed open sights” viable at two thirds of a mile? That’s not an idol question. To date all I’ve heard is that the replacement parts are made of really good metal and manufactured to very tight tolerances. We here have more than a passing knowledge of science. Mr. Lippard may be able to make the kind of shots that are being discussed here, but he can’t violate the laws of physics.
      A .45 at 600 yards drops 65 feet or more. Throw in a 17 mph wind and we’re talking amazing hold over to hit that target. The .45 round has a trajectory like a rainbow. It is wholly unsuited for the kind of precision accuracy described in this article. The claim that such shots were made repeatedly by an average shooter with open un-adjusted sights from a sitting rest therefore seems a paradoxical statement. In the absence of a computer guidance system, the shooter would need to be extremely good to make 8-10 plausible shots at the kind of range we’re talking about. Beyond these factors, a JHP or ball round has terrible aerodynamic qualities. It sure as shoot’n aint a spitzer bullet with an elegant ballistic coefficient. I have yet to hear anything that convincingly addresses these issues.
      Finally, I haven’t heard any industry leader come forward and validate these claims. Not to impugn the character of those present, but I know none of them. I have no personal connection with them and no particular reason to take the word of these men in the face of the previous doubts. If say, Masad Ayoob independently verified the claim, I’d be a long way toward accepting the idea. Instead the witnesses are local business leaders and club members, who are likely very reputable but hardly public figures in the larger community.
      So, the name dropping of the witnesses, the unsupported vague claims of the platform’s capabilities, and the weight of math standing against those claims tends to engender a healthy skepticism. Please, feel free to address these concerns. I would honestly love to own a 1911 capable of bolt action precision with open sights and no scope.

      • avatarJoshinGA says:

        +1 for everything you just said. Frankly, the ballistics just dont add up for me with “drop in parts” suddenly making a 1911 a 600 yard wonder pistol…

        Could you even see the target at 600 yards, with no optics?

        • avatar16V says:

          All of which are valid questions, which is why they will never be addressed by the Lippard people. Instead, we’ll get the same as we have for the last 2 years – nothing but more wild claims and calling us names for not believing them.

    • avatarVermin says:

      Damien,

      Lippard is making fantastical, most likely impossible claims. The fact that they are now backed up with a “press release” that reads like the script for a late-night ad for Miracle Juicers doesn’t change that.

      And, for the love of god, “cliche” is a noun.

  8. avatarTommy Knocker says:

    Pure hucksterism…that crew of onlookers at Whittington makes me laugh. No comment :)

    Just as an fyi, here are the dimensions from the rule book for the MR-1. So he “put shots on target”. Does that mean within the printed 5 ring or just on the paper?

    4.6 600 Yard Target
    (a) MR-1 target – “Target, Rifle, Competition Mid-Range.” Used in 600-yard matches only.
    Aiming Black (inches)
    X ring . . . . . . . . . . 6.00
    10 ring . . . . . . . . 12.00
    9 ring . . . . . . . . . 18.00
    8 ring . . . . . . . . . 24.00
    7 ring . . . . . . . . . 36.00
    Rings in White (inches)
    6 ring . . . . . . . . . . . 48.00
    5 ring . . . . . . . . . . . 60.00

    The overall dimensions are 67″ x 72″.

    • avatarLeo Atrox says:

      8 hits on target got 38 points; so that means any hit on the 6′x6′ target were counted as “hits.” If he was counting 5-ring or better, he have to have at least 40 points.

      Given that he’s talking about hitting a 6′x6′ target at 600 yards, I really don’t think his claims are “impossible.” Improbable, perhaps; but certainly plausible.

  9. Jeeez, Farago, I’ve already talked about this in the weekly DOWN RANGE Radio podcast! I was there. I watched Lippard pull the trigger. We filmed the target. It’ll be on SHOOTING GALLERY next season (starts the last Wednesday of December). Make as much fun as you want…the guy knows how to shoot a 1911!

    Michael B

    • avatarRobert Farago says:

      Thank you Michael. But what does it mean?

      • avatar16V says:

        It means what we said it meant, what was it, 2 years ago?

        He’s walking shots into a massive target, with a ton of fudge. He could never be given a target, draw from holster, aim, and have anymore than a “hot damn that was lucky” chance of hitting an actual man at 600 yards (or 400) – unless he got a full mag to walk it in, that “man” was Jabba-da-Hut, and he was paralyzed.

        It matters not one whit if this “test” was witnessed by Charlton Heston himself, brought back to life and dressed up like Moses, shooting HiDef from Wayne LaPierre’s shoulders, while Sam Colt watched the spotter scope.

        This is all typical con-man/PT Barnum hustle. Make outrageous claims, generally get away with it. When the smart folks call Penn & Teller, point and say “look over there!”

        When that stops working, then you come up with a “test”. One that looks sorta like your claim, but doesn’t actually meet the original criteria. Then get some “prominent” folks to witness this flawed test, throw in a ton of detail that means nothing (Space age specifications! Zero deviation from tolerances! You get 4 highly absorbent ShamWows for the price of 2!) and declare victory.

        This one is my personal fave…

        “Steel, composed of a special Lippard alloy that is the hardest, most durable steel made today. This steel does not warp or lose shape under changing temperatures…”

        Karl’s made majick steel! It has no thermal expansion coefficient even though every MSDS you’ll ever see for S7 (or any other steel alloy) has one. Amazing! Even better, it’s the hardest, most durable steel made today!

        If I call now, do I get a second bottle of Orange Glow for just $5.95 shipping and handling, Billy?

        Even though the “proof” had little to do with the original claim. Even better, none of this proves in any way that the gun is “an effective combat weapon” at that range because last time I checked you had to actually hit something by aiming at it, the enemy generally doesn’t stand still when that bullet “puff” hits 10 feet away…

      • avatarBay says:

        Why would you even care? Are you that bored to be bothered with this marketing scheme? Caveat emptor. Bernie Madoff.

        • avatar16V says:

          Ooh, the part of a standard misinfo/disinfo program that I neglected to mention.

          You plant some of your own ‘skeptics’ in the audience.

          Perhaps Lippard really did hire Vince Schlomi’s production company for this. Hmm…

  10. avatarLTC F says:

    Though I must say I admire Mr. Lippard’s tenacity and skill (as a pistol smith and as a shooter), I can’t help but ask one question. Why? It reminds me of when I was a young Lieutenant and I shot all the time at the POW (privately owned weapon) range at Fortress Benning. There was an older gentleman shooting next to me one day. I was playing with my new CMP toys, a Garand and an M1 Carbine, and a Dan Wesson in .41 Magnum I picked up cheap at a gun show. He was admiring the Garand and I found out that he had carried one across much of Europe from 1944-45.

    He was shooting a pistol he built himself. He called it a .38/45. He made his own brass, a .45 ACP necked down to .38, and built his own pistol on a 1911 platform. He claimed it was accurate out to 400 yards (he consistently hit paper plates with it at 100m, shooting with one hand in the old plastic soldier style). He was trying to get the Army to buy it as a replacement for the M16, after all it was light, and you could carry a whole lot more .38/45 ammunition than 5.56 NATO.

    He was a nice guy, it was a fun pistol to shoot, and I enjoyed watching him shoot my Garand and talking about a war I had read about but he had fought in. I also thought he was a bit of a nut thinking a pistol could replace a rifle for infantry use.

  11. avatarChris Dumm says:

    Are all skeptics haters, simply because extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof? I suggest not. Lippard has become notorious for making wild claims about many of his projects, but has previously offered no independent proof.

    After years of these extraordinary claims and purely testimonial evidence (no videos, no test guns, private ranges, etc.) this seems to be the first time that anyone other than Lippard has been permitted to shoot this gun in public.

    I look forward to independent tests by neutral shooters. If and when independent shooters can achieve similar results with these guns in their own hands (think: independent, peer-reviewed research) the skeptics will be won over.

    • avatarRalph says:

      +1. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

      Knowing how hard it is to hit targets at 600 yards with a scoped rifle, skepticism about Lippard’s claim for his wonder pistol would seem to be justified.

      I was in Las Vegas a few years ago and saw a magician make an elephant disappear. A whole elephant! I saw it with my own eyes! And yet, I must confess that I remain just a teentsy-weentsy bit skeptical.

  12. avatarjwm says:

    Ok, he did it. We’ve seen men walk on the moon. In the greater scheme of things how important is this?

  13. avatarTTACer says:

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and extraordinary attention to grammar. Maybe it’s just me but I can’t tell where the snark ends and the press release begins.

  14. avatarDyspeptic Gunsmith says:

    Well, I dunno.

    I’m going to completely ignore the 600 yard shooting issues and focus on the technology and materials. You can’t get a patent for being able to shoot, so we can presume he’s getting a patent on either materials applications or mechanism(s) inside the 1911 for the basis of a patent.

    First, S7 steel. S7 is an air quenched tool steel. It is usually used for punches, dies and other metal pieces where you want something to be a) hard, b) hold an edge, but c) have impact resistance. Usually, when you have a hard steel, you get embrittlement. This is why many older cutting tools are quenched, then “drawn back” or tempered, to relieve some of the hardness and put “toughness” (impact resistance) back into the steel.

    Lots of gunsmiths make things like firing pins out of S7 steel. It works well in this application. But making a whole gun? Hmmm. My first thought is: That’s going to be expensive. My second thought is: If you want to make modifications to these 1911′s made of S7, you’re either going to have to soften up the steel a bit, or you’re going to have to use carbide or other high-hardness tooling. High speed steel won’t cut S7, well, if at all, if the S7 is already hardened.

    Machining to “zero deviation from tolerances” – well, so what? If I spec a size for something as “0.1500 diameter, +/- 0.002″ and I keep all parts to sizes from 0.14801 to 0.1519… I haven’t deviated from the tolerances. Machining within tolerances isn’t news – it is done all the time in the firearms industry. So my next question is: “If you want to impress me, you have to tell me what those tolerances are…”

    If they’re +/- 0.005… I’m not going to be impressed. That’s pretty standard stuff.

    If they’re +/- 0.0005… OK, now I’m going to be somewhat impressed.

    All that said, I have to say that:

    “Hammer Forged, S7 Vacuum-Arc, Remelt Tool Steel”

    is bait for Buzzword Bubbas, much as the term “billet” is. I can pretty much see it years down the road:

    “My 1911 was machined from solid billet.

    “Oh yea? Well mine was made from Hammer Forged, S7 Vacuum-Arc, Remelt Tool Steel. So there. Nyaaaah. Pffffbbllt! I win!”

    • avatarMD Matt says:

      +1, thanks for that.
      I commented on the shooting, but don’t have the know how to talk about the machining.
      and, sorry, even if this 1911 is machined to .0000005, it’s still a 1911.
      I still want to know what about those parts gives it 6 times the effective range of a colt gold cup.

      • avatarDyspeptic Gunsmith says:

        Without boring people to tears with technical details, here’s what generally makes a 1911 more accurate than the average pistol:

        1. You need to tighten the lockup of the muzzle end of the barrel with the bushing in the slide. There are several ways to do this, but while we’d all like that lockup to be super-tight, there’s a conflicting requirement that you be able to unlock the slide and move it back over the barrel, while the chamber end of the barrel is dropping.

        2. You want the lockup of the rear of the barrel into the slide to be as snug as possible. This, in particular, means that little “tab” sticking out the rear of the barrel has to slide into the slot cut in the firing pin face of the slide as tightly as possible – but again, we need it to be loose enough that the chamber end of the barrel will drop when the slide comes out of battery.

        3. The locking lugs on the barrel (forward of the chamber hood) need to lock consistently into the mating notches on the underside of the slide.

        4. Your barrel link needs to have no slop in it.

        5. The slide and frame should have as little slop between them as possible. This is where the choice of steel might start to make a difference. It isn’t difficult to get common 4140 alloy steel slides and frames to fit very tightly together on the slide grooves. The problem comes when you get a little bit of sand or grit into those rails… now a tight slide might wedge into immobility on a large piece of grit. I’ve seen 1911′s machined so tight that, upon ingesting a little bit of windblown sand, needed a rawhide mallet applied to the slide to get it to move. That’s not good.

        Tighten all those tolerances, put on a very nice trigger job with a firing pin that hits the primers consistently, and you too will have a very accurate 1911.

        • avatarDrewN says:

          Please feel free to bore us with technical details any time you like.

        • avatarMD Matt says:

          Thanks, this is good to know.
          That said, my question still remains what about Mr. Lippard’s inovations transforms the efforts of someone like Bill Wilson into a pistol that superseeds every reasonable expectation.

        • avatar16V says:

          Dyspeptic Gunsmith – thanks for that one, hopefully it helps people understand how much of Lippard’s technical claims are just pseudo-science gobbledy-gook.

          Especially the tolerances stuff and world’s greatest steel alloy ever. I’ve done enough high-end auto work and machine work in my life to smell this crap a mile away. 000? 0000? 00000? They’re all tolerances…

          If he actually had something in there about what coatings, cryo, what are those tolerances, Rockwell hardness, a Charpy number, maybe an actual ASTM alloy number, he might be credible. But it’s nothing but catch phrases and buzz words.

  15. avatarHasdrubal says:

    When I first read about this guy, I thought he meant he was capable of hitting a man sized target at 600yds, because as a pistol is not belt fed, you cannot sustain a high enough rate of fire to function as an area effect weapon.

    Now I read he was getting most of his rounds on a 6′x6′ target frame. This is somewhat impressive, but nowhere near what I thought he was claiming.

    Years ago at a two day sniper range, at Yakima Training Center, we got bored and pulled out the M9. Unfortunately, since we were using the machine gun section of the range, the pop-up targets went from 50m to 1100m. After shooting at the 50m and 100m targets for a while, about 70-80% hits at the 100m, (and any old guy with a revolver on this site can confirm 100m hits are possible with a handgun), I tried the 150m and 200m targets.

    After three or four rounds to get the elevation, I hit each target, once. Didn’t bother trying again, because it’s not by any means combat effective. Could I do it again? Maybe. Does it matter? Absolutely not. If you can’t do it reliably and quickly, it’s a parlor trick like vanishing Ralph’s elephant. And while it would no doubt suck to get hit with a 9mm or .45 at 200m, it would not worry me anywhere near as much as the rifle I should be using to return fire at that range. At 600yds, I wonder if it would even cause serious injury.

    • avatar16V says:

      If you first read this about 2 years ago, that was the claim. Man-sized target at 400 yards.

      We all called BS back then and were greeted with basically the same response from Lippard that we have now. No real specs, no hard facts and his test did what we said was the only way to hit with .45 ballistics at that range – walk ‘em in and hope your target doesn’t move. At all.

      I did a longer post responding to RF up there somewhere, but you’re 100% right. If you can’t draw, acquire an assigned target, and have a reasonable chance of hitting with one or two rounds, it’s merely a parlour trick.

  16. avatarOldLawman says:

    Meaningless BS.
    Do you really believe that only he, over all of the world of top-notch pistolsmiths and shooters, can build and then do this ?

  17. avatarbontai Joe says:

    I remember being a bit amazed at watching a friend shoot a 1911 at steel plates at 100 yards. Seeing the size of the target used for this 600 yard event, I can believe it. A 6 foot x 6 foot target is a lot bigger than a steel chicken target used by my friend who was shooting my Auto Ordnance .45 with open sights, even if it was 600 yards away.

  18. avatarRIGHT! says:

    If I’m going to handgun @ a gazillion yards it will be with a fixed barrel handgun, probably a TC product TYVM. The above 45 may be engineering genius at it’s highest but in the end it is a “solution” looking for marketing hype.

  19. avatarAccur81 says:

    Dear Karl Lippard,

    I call bullshit.

    I once hit about 1″ from a bullseye with a Kimber .45 at 25 yards. That doesn’t mean I can shoot standing unsupported 4″ groups at 100 yards, 8″ groups at 200, etc. I don’t make that claim because it would be ridiculous.

    I’d like to see a Lippard / .45 vs a markmen / M4. I’d shoot a .45 at 600 yards for pure entertainment value, because that’s all it would be.

  20. It don’t mean nuthin’, brother, in the cosmic sense of things. Just like all the hundreds…no thousands…of groups I’ve shot over the decades don’t mean anything. If there’s something to be learned here it’s that if you take the slop out of a 1911 pistol and figure out a (patented) way to keep the gunk from jamming the gun, the damn things will shoot like a house afire. Secondly, a talented man with the right gun can do amazing things, not the least of which is chum up the trolls!

    Michael B

    • avatarjwm says:

      somebody got a knot in their panties.

    • avatarTommy Knocker says:

      Trolls? I guess if anyone can see thru the marketing BS, then that makes them a troll. This BS artist says he established a world record. Could only put 8 of 10 shots on a six by six foot target. Scored a 38. If it is a world record, who else has shot it? When and where and with what? Or is this a record he just invented? What is the governing body? Come on Mr. Bane don ‘t expect us to believe everyone with a line of crap or shill that pops up on the web. BTW do you want to vouch for all the UFO stories on the web also? Troll. Boy you got some set of cojones.

      • avatar16V says:

        What’s easiest to chum up is the mindless marketer, who thinks we should all be as empty-headed and thoughtlessly accepting as he wants us to be.

        Simply put, a press release means jack. Especially one loaded with hyperbole and really light on actual facts. Or science. Or linkable video.

        So prove us wrong. I have yet to see that happen and this sideshow has been going on for 2 years now.

  21. avatarRich says:

    If you want consistent ammo, you gotta make it yourself.

  22. avatarBrice says:

    Honestly, I don’t really see what the big deal is. A couple of years back I was at a campout with some friends. We had a pistol range set up as well as an 18″ steel gong set at 340 yards (according to the range finder). It wasn’t the least be hard to walk around into that target with whatever gun was in your hands. Pull the trigger, watch for the dust, adjust and put the rest of the magazine into the gong. The next morning when we walked out there, you could pick up barely deformed rounds off the dirt in front of the gong.

    For me, the question isn’t, will a 1911 shoot that far, the question is why do I care? At 600 yards wearing a leather jacket, you could probably stand in front of that bullet and not worry about it. I went and found a quick ballistic calculator, if it’s anywhere close to right, it’s got like 146 foot pounds out there and dropped 680 some odd inches (.118 bc, 1100 fps). That might do a rabbit, but it probably won’t do a man.

  23. I don’t know Karl Lippard and I have only exchanged one e-mail with him – I invited him to post some details of the double rifles and shotguns that he builds on a forum that I am one of the moderators on, and he said that he would consider it and never got back. I had been referred to him by two friends, one of whom is an European expert on firearms technology with a huge amount of experience with many different types of military and civilian guns and ammunition, and the other was an ACGG member stockmaker. Both of them had nothing but praise for Lippard’s gunmaking abilities. They also had nothing but praise for the Winchester Model 70 type actions that Lippard was selling at one point in time to gunsmiths like John Bolliger of Idaho Mountain Riflery. Neither of these people has any idea what happened – Lippard’s original website does not exist any more and Bolliger has scrubbed the details of the Lippard Model 70 type actions from his website after initially praising them. On the long range handgun claims, neither of these people wants to comment either. I guess a middle opinion could be formed about this claimed effort at long range marksmanship – a superb shot could keep his shots within a general area at ranges that would be impossible for the average shooter to contemplate. By itself, this proves nothing – even Billy Dixon of Sharps rifle fame always said after his impossibly long shot on an Indian horseman at some enormous distance that he would never be able to repeat this feat. On the other hand, Lippard may have a very good 1911 style pistol to sell as it is made of high grade steel – if only he could keep from trying to make it sound like a substitute for a service rifle and more. Personally, if he offers his sporting guns – shotguns, double rifles and bolt actions – again, that would likely interest more people. The military has decided whom to buy its 1911 pistols from, and they did not buy from Lippard. On the other hand, there always has been and will be a demand for high grade sporting guns and components for building custom ones. Lippard worked for Perazzi and Fabbri as their General Manager. He obviously knows a thing or a thousand about high grade sporting guns. His actions too (however many or few he produced) were praised by people I know and trust not to give praise easily. Perhaps, he needs to look more closely at that market segment and stop embarrassing himself.

    • avatar16V says:

      And you’ve nailed exactly where he went wrong.

      Lippard may be able to build a really nice 1911 – god knows it’s not really hard to improve them. As elaborated by Dyspeptic Gunsmith earlier, most gunsmiths know what to do to make it good. From my first MK IV GC, I’ve owned 1911s for 30 years and I’m rather sure from experience, he has the list down pat.

      Lippard may have brought together a great combo of optimized tolerances, optimized materials, and maybe some coatings (which thousands of us have been doing for 15+ years and just not talking much about). Problem is he shills this up like it’s the frakkin’ second coming of John Belushi.

      I understand marketing and that (almost) all press is good press. But when you talk about actual credibility that reputable folks are bailing on him speaks volumes.

  24. avatarLarry says:

    I shot an antelope at 600 yards once with my scoped .30-06 Winchester Model 70 using factory ammo and had trouble getting people to believe me. I can believe 600 yards with a 1911, if I’m using a 6 foot square target. Take a dozen or so practice shots watching to see where the dirt flies from each shot and I think I could do it with a 1911. All it takes is figuring out how much hold over to use. I read once about Civil War snipers shooting incredible distances with incredible results, and you know what POS rifles they had in those days. So after thinking about it, I can believe the story of the 600 yard 1911.

    A friend of mine used to call shots like these “bar stool shots”. “Yessir, I shot that there elk at a thousand yards with open sights and I only had one bullet!” And the more beer consumed, the more yards it was.

  25. avatarOldcaster says:

    Some years ago I bought a Le Baer 1 1/2″ model wadcutter bullseye gun. We started a league that was benchresting pistols at 100 yards and it had to be a revolver or semi auto. I soon found out that the 45 was not the gun to use even at 100 yards. It is more the inability of the .45 ACP round than the gun. If the gun is tight enough to hold 1 1/2 at 50 it is tight enough to hold 18 inches at 600. The problem arises when expecting to be able to aim correctly with iron sights when there is no way you could see the target because the sight would be so high the barrel would be in the way or you have to have an aiming point 65 feet higher than the target plus expecting the ACP to perform at that range.when it doesn’t possess the ballistics to do it. Read any of the gun websites and you will find someone that can easily do things that are so preposterous that it will give a real shooter a chuckle. The bottom line is that the Bible says don’t argue with a fool because others will get confused as to which is whom.– Bill –

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