Readers Recoil from RECOIL Magazine

 

RECOIL magazine has set the Internets ablaze with outrage. The firearms fraternity is fired-up at the gun mag’s MP7AI article. Specifically, the following: “Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of.” TTAG writer Rob Pincus—and about a billion other pro-Second Amendment types—would like a word with RECOIL writer Jerry Tsai and his ballistic brethren about this. But first, here’s Tsai’s attempt to tamp-down the conflagration. Like so many mealy-mouthed mea culpas, Tsai ends up fanning the flames . . .

“Hey guys, this is Jerry Tsai, Editor of RECOIL. I think I need to jump in here and clarify what I wrote in the MP7A1 article. It looks like I may not have stated my point clearly enough in that line that is quoted up above. Let’s be clear, neither RECOIL nor I are taking the stance on what should or should not be made available on the commercial market although I can see how what was written can be confused as such.

“Because we don’t want anything to be taken out of context, let’s complete that quote and read the entire paragraph:

Like [sic] we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it. Mike Cabrera of Heckler & Koch Law Enforcement Sales and veteran law enforcement officer with SWAT unit experience points out that this is a gun that you do not want in the wrong, slimy hands. It comes with semi-automatic and full-auto firing modes only. Its overall size places it between a handgun and submachine gun. Its assault rifle capabilities and small size make this a serious weapon that should not be taken lightly.

“Let’ also review why this gun should not be taken lightly. In the article it was stated that the MP7A1 is a slightly larger than handgun sized machine-gun that can be accurately fired and penetrate Soviet style body armor at more than 300 yards. In the wrong hands, that’s a bad day for the good guys.

“As readers of RECOIL, we all agree that we love bad-*** hardware, there’s no question about that. I believe that in a perfect world, all of us should have access to every kind of gadget that we desire. Believe me, being a civvie myself, I’d love to be able to get my hands on an MP7A1 of my own regardless of its stated purpose, but unfortunately the reality is that it isn’t available to us. As a fellow enthusiast, I know how frustrating it is to want something only to be denied it.

“Its manufacturer has not made the gun available to the general public and when we asked if it would ever come to the commercial market, they replied that it is strictly a military and law enforcement weapon, adding that there are no sporting applications for it. Is it wrong that HK decided against selling a full-auto pocket sized machine gun that can penetrate armor from hundreds of yards away? It’s their decision to make and their decision they have to live with not mine nor anybody else’s.

“I accepted their answer for what it was out of respect for those serving in uniform. I believe that we as gun enthusiasts should respect our brothers in law enforcement, agency work and the military and also keep them out of harms way. Like HK, I wouldn’t want to see one of these slip into the wrong hands either. Whether or not you agree with this is fine. I am compelled to explain a point that I was trying to make that may have not been clear.

Thanks for reading,

JT, Editor, RECOIL”

Mr. Pincus isn’t buying that for a minute . . .

DEAR RECOIL MAGAZINE,

In reference to: “Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of…” To say I disagree with your thoughts on the MP7 would be a gross understatement.

In fact, the statement’s ignorance is amazing. In case you didn’t notice, the only reason Glocks, M&Ps, and probably most of the guns that are paying for advertising space in your rag are built is to put down bad guys. People may find “sporting purposes” for them but gun games aren’t why they exist. If Wired or Maxim had said what you did, I wouldn’t care. You should’ve known better.

The vast majority of firearms that have been designed and built in the history of the tool have been built for defensive or offensive use. Regardless of the intended role, military, law enforcement or civilian, the overwhelming majority of firearms on shelves in gun shops and shown in the pages of your now incredibly disappointing magazine are designed for use by people against people.

While the “shooting sports” label may be a banner that has hung over our industry for political and (sometimes) marketing reasons, your young magazine hasn’t exactly catered to the waterfowl or skeet crowds.

Personally, the MP7 is one of the few guns on the planet that I would rush out and pay H&K Retail Price for, if it were ever offered for civilian sale. I’ve had the pleasure of shooting them many times and training teams that use them. It is a great tool, but didn’t possess any magical power that made it reckless, dangerous or inappropriate for any responsible firearms owner to possess…for whatever reason they desire.

After reading Jerry Tsai’s attempt to justify the position by saying that he is concerned about the gun getting into the “wrong hands” and posing a threat to law enforcement, it is even more clear that this wasn’t just a slip up or the parroting of H&K’s sales policy. There is obviously an opinion held by the leadership of your magazine that  thinks some guns are okay for us to own and some are not.

The ridiculousness of the idea that because MP7 rounds can penetrate soft body armor, they shouldn’t be owned by civilians is the kind of thing gun control advocates and anti-gunners say, not something that should be coming out of the mouth of a magazine that cashes checks written by the gun industry and its customers.

I had high hopes for your publication. Now I expect people to stop reading it, advertisers to fade away and your writers to submit their work to other publications that actually understand the industry they are covering.

Rob Pincus

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About Robert Farago

Robert Farago is the Publisher of The Truth About Guns (TTAG). He started the site to explore the ethics, morality, business, politics, culture, technology, practice, strategy, dangers and fun of guns.

129 Responses to Readers Recoil from RECOIL Magazine

  1. avatarTexas Sean says:

    Slick photography and a large format layout aside, this magazine was redolent of a certain clique-ish, moneyed gent status from the start. Their articles were often preachy and mall ninja insiderish at the same time.

    • avatarPhydeaux says:

      Yes, it seemed like they were trying to be the Vogue, Wired or Town & Country of guns. I’m sure it was the resulting cognitive dissonance that finally got to Jerry.

      It’s nice gun porn, but I’m not planning to buy any more issues.

    • avatarFreddie Serna says:

      “Slick photography and a large format layout aside, this magazine was redolent of a certain clique-ish, moneyed gent status from the start. Their articles were often preachy and mall ninja insiderish at the same time.”

      As stated above by Texas Sean is why I didn’t purchase RECOIL. I saw it on the magazine stand at the grocery store. I flipped through it but something about it turned me off so I didn’t buy it. It looked like it was designed to excite the mall ninjas.

  2. avatarI_Like_Pie says:

    If they don’t want to sell it to normal people and make it military sales only…that is fine with me.

    The freedoms allowing them to do that is just as important as 2A in my book. OFWG’s complain too much.

    • avatartheaton says:

      I_Like_Pie, you are correct that it is the decision of the company. It is also the right of Jerry Tsai to tell us what he believes we should or shouldn’t be able to purchase. It is our right to complain about what he says. It is also our right to purchase or not purchase his product and or products from the magazines advertisers.

  3. avatarSnachnim says:

    This is why I don’t subscribe to any magazines on guns. Nuff said.

  4. avatarJoel says:

    well, I no longer want any HK guns.

  5. avatarCarlosT says:

    HK. Because you suck. And we hate you. And apparently Recoil shares the sentiments.

      • avatarAdam Broussard says:

        Actually, I have nothing against H&K. However, the magazine has forever lost any possible business of mine. Fail, sir.

    • avatarLem says:

      We need to stop giving HK, Glock, and (possibly) Sig any money, as they want to fawn all over the police and treat us like second-class citizens, while selling them guns dirt cheap, subsidized by the rest of us. Double-subsidized as we pay full price for our guns, plus buy the police guns with our tax dollars.

  6. avatarMike S says:

    Funny- I honestly just thought of this magazine the other day, remembering I was meaning to check it out and was gonna see if any of my local dead-tree outlets had it. Glad I heard about this before I did. My readership is over before it started. I expect foolishness like this elsewhere- but not from those supposedly on my side of the issue.

    To Recoil, from a now lost potential reader:

    Go F**K yourselves.

  7. avatarST says:

    ” In the wrong hands, that’s a bad day for the good guys.”

    In the wrong hand every firearm can cause a bad day for the good guys. That sentence is the stated justification for every gun control law on the books. As such, the idea that the MP7 is in some way too deadly to be trusted in civil hands is utter bull. If anything, restricting sales to Law Enforcement all but guarantees that *only* the bad guys will be shooting them-how many police officers are busted selling guns out of the public armory? As far as im concerned RECOIL magazine is just another Brady shill-except the Brady’s know which side they are on.

    With regards to HK, they do not have a practical choice but to restrict the MP7 to LE sales only. Thanks to the NFA they’d have to either stick an ugly 16″ barrel on it and build part of the components stateside as a rifle, or take off the stock and foregrip to sell it as a pistol. If HK did the latter, it would be a huge, impractical, impossible to conceal semi auto handgun that would be a pain to shoot without a stock. If HK did the former, it would be a huge, ugly,expensive & underpowered rifle. Neither product would sell enough to justify the cost to market, and thanks to the Hughes Amendment HK can’t sell it as a full auto weapon either.

  8. avatarDyspeptic Gunsmith says:

    OK, let’s clear something up here.

    Want to defeat soft body armor?

    Go get your deer rifle. A real deer rifle, not some pissant .223 semi-auto posing as a deer rifle. Something that has at least 2,000 ft-lbs of KE at the muzzle. FMJ rounds. Right there, most soft body armor used across the US is over and done.

    But, let’s say a target is wearing soft armor that could actually withstand a .308 class strike? How to defeat this?

    Flailed chest. Go get your .338 WM or heavier elk rifle (a .375 H&H would do quite nicely). The resulting flailed chest makes the point of whether or not the round penetrated utterly academic. And we all know just how pointless academics are.

    But, let’s say for the sake of argument, you’re still not satisfied. You want to defeat hard armor, ceramic plates, etc. – ie, the type of thing HK is trying to do with these itty-bitty rounds launched as hypersonic speeds.

    OK. Get yourself some tungsten rod and a lathe. You’ll need some special tooling, but that’s available. Turn up some long projectiles with high sectional density. You’ll need to pay attention to some issues of barrel twist rate when you make your projectile, but that’s easily enough done. Make sure the tip is a) sharp and b) has a point that minimizes drag.

    Put it in a plastic sabot and launch out of a .30-06 class rifle.

    But putting all this ballistic foo-fa-rah aside, let’s just solve the problem for less money than you’d need to with a gun. A solution that doesn’t need a background check. A solution that can be bought today, right now, by any felon in the US.

    Use a broadhead launched by a compound bow.

    At this point, a whole lot of hopped-up gun enthusiasts are looking startled – “You mean a bow and arrow can defeat soft body armor? No way!”

    Way.

    The point I’m making here is that a ban on some weapon “designed” to defeat body armor is academic. It’s expressly designed to make more sales to government agencies, who as we know, like to think that they’re deserving of the very best stuff available – except for training, the IQ levels of the people they recruit, and policies.

    Restricting weapons like this will hamper only either the really lazy or really dumb people out there – because body armor doesn’t do anything to defeat someone who actually knows how to shoot who takes head shots. Take a little time to become a good shot and body armor is a non-sequitur.

    But the cops gotta feel oh-so-terribly special, so HK is going to restrict this to only LEO’s and military. Which, given the corruption in law enforcement agencies in the US these days, means that the Mexican cartels should have them in their hot little hands about a month after the FBI and ATF get their hands on the first shipment.

  9. avatarSean says:

    I would think that the reason that civilians wouldn’t want one is that the HK shoots a nearly worthless cartridge. Sure, it is pointy and can put holes in things that your .22 can’t. But it is about effective on soft things. Like people.

  10. avatarCarlosT says:

    The MP7 and the FN P90 were both developed in response to the same request for a new weapon to replace the pistol caliber submachine guns in use at the time. One of the primary requirements was that the new system had to have was the capability to defeat light body armor.

    HK introduced the MP7 with its new round, and FN introduced the P90 and the 5.7×28. Both do the job as specified. Of course, HK being HK, it’s FU to the civilian market. FN goes on and produces the PS90, which is a non-NFA version of the P90, with a 16 inch barrel, and no select fire. Because FN doesn’t think you suck and doesn’t hate you.

  11. avatarWill says:

    I agree. IF H&K doesn’t want to sell it (or feel that they can market a civilian model), that is entirely up to H&K, NOT some publisher. (Maybe H&K got a bad taste in their mouth over the MP5′s civilian model governmental ban.)

    Their (H&K’s) gun design, their right to do with it as they please.

  12. Guess if I want gun that shoots a small, super fast round the FN PS90 will get a strong look. I’ve always thought one of those in an SBR set up would be neat.
    I never really wanted something that shoots small, expensive rounds, but H&K’s attitude on this, as well as this article make me want to appreciate FN for being pretty civy friendly lol.
    So I can add a PS90 to the FN SCAR 16/17s and FNP 45 I’m already online window shopping for.

    • avatarDerek Dauma (formerly Other Derek) says:

      Any gunsmiths in here have any issues with the all-plastic fire control mechanisms of the PS90? There’s a ‘smith on advrider that’s definitely not a fan.

      • avatarDyspeptic Gunsmith says:

        I’ve never seen one, so I can’t comment.

        And if someone brought one in, my likely reaction would be “Get that POS out of my shop.”

        • avatarDerek Dauma (formerly Other Derek) says:

          He posted pics, I should have saved them. Really surprising for such an expensive rifle.

          I’m not against plastic guns at all, but I’d rather have the mechanism connecting the bangswitch to the primer to be made out of metal.

          I bet if someone duracoted one orange and pink the average person would think it was a Nerf gun.

      • avatarKen says:

        My Steyr Aug has plastic fire control mechanism. Never had any issues, other than a long crappy trigger pull. But it has always gone bang with each long crappy pull.

    • avatarmatt says:

      Dont get the FNP45, it has a few problems, the FNX45 which supposedly fixes them should be released any month now.

  13. avatarJohn Arizona says:

    Just give these Guns to the New York PD then they can get MORE than 9 in a single incident…..

  14. avatarPCnotPC says:

    “The vast majority of firearms that have been designed and built in the history of the tool have been built for defensive or offensive use. Regardless of the intended role, military, law enforcement or civilian, the overwhelming majority of firearms on shelves in gun shops and shown in the pages of your now incredibly disappointing magazine are designed for use by people against people.”

    Sounds like Mr. Pincus has made the anti-gunners’ point for them.

  15. avatarjwm says:

    recoil magazine? never heard of it. guess this will be the only place i hear about it. i think any tools the police can buy, the citizen should be able to buy.
    like “ebr’s” in general, this isn’t my cup of tea. but the choice should be mine.

  16. avatarGreg Camp says:

    I hadn’t heard of the magazine in question, and now having had a look at it, I can’t say that I’ve missed anything. I don’t waste a lot of time on writers who make obvious errors–claiming that private guns exist only for sporting purposes, for example.

    About the gun itself, it’s not for me, but I wouldn’t forbid someone else from owning it. Ugly guns that shoot a weenie round need a home too, right?

    • avatarPhydeaux says:

      I picked up the issue referenced in the above post at some airport a couple months ago. Hadn’t seen it before, or since.

      It seems they’re trying to follow the Wired magazine business plan, starting with limited news stand distribution only, then offering subscriptions once monthly volumes get big enough, and eventually selling out to a big publisher (again, like Wired).

      Of course this whole part of the publication industry is extremely liberal and PC, which has apparently been an issue for RECOIL.

  17. avatarAnotherMatt says:

    The MP7 is a piece of crap with a worthless round anyway. The P90 is a better firearm in every way, and FN will happily sell you a civilian version.

    • avatarsmwlce says:

      The MP7 is not a “crappy” gun.

      I will agree that the P90 and 5.7 are superior though. NATO seems to agree, though HK did a good job using politics to keep the 5.7 from being standardized.

  18. avatarSilver says:

    And the 2A had anything to do with “sporting” rather than the citizens’ rights to defend themselves and their liberty, that argument would mean something. But it doesn’t, so you’re an idiot.

    With “friends” like these in the gun community, who needs enemies?

  19. avatarPascal says:

    Hmmm, take one M1 Garand and a clip of 30-06 Armor Piercing M2 Black Tip Surplus Ammo from 1955/56 which you can still find and good guys will have a problem out to 400 yards, what this person had to say is nonsense!

  20. avatarMichael B. says:

    RECOIL Magazine: Civilians shouldn’t be able to own military weapons.

    Pincus: Civilians shouldn’t be able to open carry.

    I see a writing gig in his future.

    • avatarRob Pincus says:

      I’ve never EVER said that people shouldn’t be ALLOWED to open carry. In fact, I’m against the OC Agitators pretty specifically because they’ve managed to get that right restricted in at least two states already.

      • avatarMichael B. says:

        There is no big difference between “I’M AGAINST PEOPLE EXERCISING THAT RIGHT” and “I’M AGAINST THAT RIGHT.”

        • avatarDrewN says:

          Well, all of us here in Ca. got to experience having a right stripped away because some forward thinkers just had to go and get the soccer moms riled up. I’m not sure what they thought was going to happen, except exactly what did happen.

        • avatarsmwlce says:

          you missed the point. Its about not being a dick. yes, “open carry advocates” have pretty much done more damage than good to the gun rights cause.

          ill add that I agree with their sentiment, though its pretty sad that in our society, the 2nd amendment is still being treated secondary to the others.

        • avatartheaton says:

          DrewN, your right was not stripped away. It still exists. The problems is that you, like the rest of us, have no courage to stand against Tyranny.

      • avatarDerek Dauma (formerly Other Derek) says:

        Nice doublespeak FLAME DELETED

      • avatarmatt says:

        So are you against those 1A agitators who protest in public too?

        • avatarMichael B. says:

          The fact he uses “agitators” makes me think of anti-civil rights protesters back in the day. I don’t like to compare the gun rights movement to the civil rights movement. They’re not the same even if there are elements here and there, but yeah.

          We have attitudes similar to Tsai’s in our midst.

  21. avatarDerek Dauma (formerly Other Derek) says:

    I just had an idea–unfortunately I already left some comments on their FB page, but here’s what I WISH I would have done:

    Leave comments thanking Jerry Tsai for supporting “reasonable restrictions” on gun control like you’re a member of the Brady Bunch.

    Makes me wish I had a fake FB account, lol.

  22. avatarracer88 says:

    I subscribe to nearly every gun mag on the market… a “business” expense… they just somehow never make it to the reception room in my office. :D

    But, I will not subscribe to this new magazine (“Recoil”) based on this peek into it’s lack of commitment to the 2nd Amendment.

    The PS90 is on my short list for acquisition in the future. Already have the Five-seveN pistol.

  23. avatarRIGHT! says:

    One of the Cardnal rules of Communist Subversion, as stated in the original USCP Manifesto (Chicago HQs) is to create shadow govts and shadow cultures so that Fellow Travelers can then site the shadow experts as proof of the “reasonableness” of thier arguments for Less Liberty. I see a future as a “Gun Expert” in this pinko’s future.
    Anyone have the Google Fu skills to trace the funding of this mag?

    • avatarMike S says:

      Well……

      It is owned by Source Interlink Media.

      http://www.sourceinterlink.com/

      Big outfit, owns Motor Trend, and lots of specialty mags, particularly niche automotive stuff. Surfed around a little, and found this profile-

      http://www.mondotimes.com/company/sourceinterlink.html

      I’m gonna quote the last paragraph-
      “Before the company bankruptcy filing in 2009, Source Interlink was backed by billionaire Ron Burkle through The Yucaipa Companies, a Los Angeles-based private investment firm specializing in acquiring and operating companies in the retail, distribution, and logistics areas. A former grocery store bag boy, Burkle is a prominent Democratic party activist and fundraiser. He is a close friend of former President Bill Clinton, and investments in Yucaipa made by Clinton and his wife Senator Hillary Clinton have generated millions of dollars in income for them. “

      LOL

      Doesn’t say the guy is involved now, but……How many of the folks at Source Interlink do you suppose were and are pretty tight with that guy?

    • OK, just because I was bored (and have access to super secret sh1t)
      Recoil is owned by Source Interlink Companies, Inc. (http://www.sourceinterlink.com) 27500 Riverview Center Blvd., Ste. 400 Bonita Springs, FL 34134 Phone: 239-949-4450.

      Michael L. Sullivan – President and Chief Executive Officer

      John B. Bode – Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

      Source Interlink publishes about 75 magazines (including Motor Trend and Soap Opera Digest) and a couple of television programs.

      and a big +1 to the rest of your post.

  24. avatarRoss says:

    Personally I like Recoil magazine, but was disappointed to see Jerry Tsai’s take on who should or shouldn’t be able to own what. Mr. Pincus response was right on the money, that being said I will continue to read Recoil, I believe they deserve a second chance, and Pincus is right on the open carry issue as well.

    • avatarDerek Dauma (formerly Other Derek) says:

      Wow, sides with the “sporting purpose” argument AND wants to slink away and beg for the restoration of our Second Amendment Rights.

      So how much does a membership to the Brady Campaign cost, anyway?

  25. avatarChris Dumm says:

    I dug the looks of the MP7 because it looked kind of like the USNC M7 submachinegun from the HALO videogame series. I admit that’s geeky, but there it is. I’ve never gotten to shoot one (and I doubt I’d ever buy one at any likely H&K retail price) but I’m always a little cheesed when a manufacturer thinks I ‘can’t handle’ the awesomeness of a semi-automatic carbine because that’s just horseshit.

    H&K makes outstanding firearms, but their frequent refusal to serve the U.S.civilian market has earned them a lot of resentment. This Recoil article, and the corporate sentiment it defends, will do absolutely nothing to earn H&K any more American consumer goodwill.

    Now let’s contrast the H&K attitude to the FN attitude. FN has a decent track record of eventually selling civvy-legal versions of their military hardware here, and when they don’t (SAW, M240) it’s for market-driven reasons and not paternalism.

    FN took a risk and sold the PS90 and FiveseveN to American civilians, and it seems to have been worth their while. FN is also a friend to HALO geeks everywhere, since their FS2000 looks like it was made for the Master Chief’s armored hands. I’ve shot them and I’m not terribly fond of their ergonomics, but I love the way they look.

    • avatarHal says:

      Don’t forget the SCAR. They took a big risk with introducing that to the civie market because the market was already saturated with ARs. They the did it for two reasons the primary being profit (hooah!) the second being a desire to keep customers happy. Cheers to FN. Now unf*ck your magazine availability problem and we can talk turkey on me buying one of those fine striker-fired pistols of yours… look out glock!

    • avatarGreg Camp says:

      I developed a slight and easily cured case of desire for an FN PS90 while watching the various iterations of Stargate SG-1. As I said, slight, and I’d still rather have an M1 Garand.

      • avatarChris Dumm says:

        The PS90 is a hoot to shoot, but the mag is so big (50 frakkin’ rounds) and the recoil is so mild that you just can’t stop shooting. And that’s where the ammo cost just eats you alive.

        Now a .22 rimfire PS90 conversion…

        • avatarCarlosT says:

          The man who did that should have a monument built to him on the National Mall.

        • avatarDan says:

          “Now a .22 rimfire PS90 conversion…”

          SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!

        • avatarDoc Glock says:

          No, I’m not one of THOSE Glocks, LOL. I have your answer! Get a reliable Ruger 10/22 rifle and put it into a Hightower Armory HTA 90/22 stock! (http://www.hightowerarmory.com/) I waited a year for Andy to work the bugs out and get this to market. He even offered the first ones to those who signed up on his web site, in the order they signed up, before anyone else as a reward for our support. I got mine immediately and have loved it ever since. So, run, don’t walk to Hightower armory and get one for yourself! They even come in OD green, flat dark earth, and classic black. Andy is great, answers forum posts, Facebook posts, AND he has even answered the phone the three times I called! You can’t lose! Also, the icing on the cake, is that the faux magazine is a spare ammo holder, which holds another 75 rounds! That’s three 25-round magazines worth! It uses every magazine I have tried, even the stock 10-rounders! What’s not to love! Mine loves 22LR CCI mini-mags. You DO need to disassemble it occasionally to clean it, but, your scope stays put and doesn’t need to be re-zeroed. So, there you go!

  26. avatarDJ says:

    Just think about how much better off if civilians hadn’t had access to military firearms technology (muskets) in 1776. Yes, those muskets got into the wrong hands and a bunch of colonial rabble rose up against their betters.

    …and that’s why we have a second amendment.

    The Swiss don’t seem to have a problem with mass private ownership of military small arms. And the Israelis don’t seem to have a problem with soldiers carrying their sidearm 24/7.

    • avatarg says:

      I would say that’s because the Swiss and the Israelis have mandatory conscription. And with that conscription, comes a reasonable expectation that able-bodied men and women have received basic instruction in firearms, hence they can be trusted with military-grade weapons.

      So I guess the philosophical question for all of us at TTAG… would we be in favor of re-instituting the draft / conscription in exchange for less firearms restrictions?

      Personally, I don’t think it’s a bad idea… maybe our politicians wouldn’t be so quick to sending our young people out to battle if they knew they and/or their kids would be out on the frontlines too.

      • avatarBruce says:

        g, I was drafted and sent to Vietnam. Didn’t seem to stop them from sending a lot of us kids then. And only about 50,000 didn’t make it back.

        I’m not against a draft, but it won’t stop the kids from being sent into harms way.

      • avatarjwm says:

        1 of many reasons the swiss and isreali’s have military weapons on the streets and in their homes courtesy of their governments is the actual size of their countries. you can overrun either country in a very short period of time.
        if their citizen soldiers had to respond to a central amory to draw weapons it might already be too late.

  27. avatarAnon in CT says:

    John O’ Sullivan Law: All organizations that are not actually right-wing will over time become left-wing.

  28. avatarg says:

    I own a couple of issues of RECOIL and I definitely like the style / look of the magazine… though I suppose it’s not for everyone. I guess being a 30-something, I’m in the target demographic? Haha.

    I think any rational owner of firearms understands that there’s a continual tug-of-war of balance between what most of us gun owners desire versus what the government / society is willing to allow. I’m sure most of us would love easy access to the same weapon systems we see used in our military, from full-auto carbines, suppressors, SBRs to the new military class of sub-machine guns like the H&K MP7 and FN P90.

    And *SURPRISE*… many gun owners will have widely differing opinions on the matter. You have hunting types who only care about owning rifles & shotguns, to others who want zero restrictions on any size or type of firearm. So are we quick to say… eat our own?

    Or can firearms enthusiasts of varying opinions co-exist? I may not agree with 100% of what Jerry Tsai is saying, but I can see the reasoning behind his opinion.

    • avatarSilver says:

      There’s a difference between a “firearm enthusiast” and a “gun rights advocate.” The latter seeks to defend and uphold the 2A, the former only makes use of it.

    • avatarGreg Camp says:

      He’s welcome to say whatever he wants–even to use his right of a free press to demand that our right to firearms be taken away. But I have the right not to buy or read his magazine. He’ll end up selling to gun enthusiasts who are against private ownership–a small audience, I suspect.

    • avatarRIGHT! says:

      Jerry T is not one of my off-spring and he’s no friend of the US Constitution

  29. avatarjanklow says:

    i’m still trying to figure out how being a gun enthusiast means that “law enforcement, agency work and the military” are my “brothers-in-arms.”

  30. avatarLt Dave says:

    Was a reader, ain’t no more. I will take my slimy money somewhere else.

  31. avatarsmwlce says:

    So i can easily buy and use a AR15 pistol, which can ballistically tear the ass out of a MP7.

    But apparently the MP7 is just a magical death ray

    LOL. sure.

    Ive fired a MP7 before, in Afghanistan. They are typically carried by Bundeswehr AFV drivers. I liked my Mk 18 better.

  32. avatarMechair says:

    I have ALWAYS had a problem with the ole ” We have to make it unavailable to everyone, because bad guys might get them” mentality. There are MANY, MANY more good guys than bad, so where is the majority in that?
    If the bad guys want them bad enough, they will get them, period.
    Oh, and good guys REALLY like to defend themselves as well. I have always carried a weapon, for the exact same reason a police officer does.

  33. avatarjohn moses says:

    Well said Mr. Pincus, Thank You.

  34. avatarDerek says:

    “RECOIL magazine…”

    Who?

  35. avatarphilthegardner says:

    We can’t buy it because it might get into the wrong hands resulting in a bad day for the good guys? Are you talking about the MP7 or guns in general Mr. Tsai?

    With friends like these…

  36. avatarJLR says:

    Far from being something that no civilian should ever own, short barreled rifles would be the ideal home defense platform for the average person, if not for those pesky NFA rules.

    I’m not necessarily a fan of the expensive and exotic caliber, but that’s another matter…

  37. Both Recoil Magazine and Heckler und Koch (owned by a Brit – Keith Halsey who also owns Boss and Co, manufacturer of overpriced shotguns, no less) are full of it. How long would it take someone to get the x30mm case and lathe turned bronze bullets for it made and chamber the combination in a different firearm? And, there ARE considerably more powerful firearms firing larger cartridges which could penetrate a heck of a lot more at 300 yards than this little marketing gimmick from H&K. Looks like H&K used typical marketing hype to try to sell their latest-greatest invention and the pompous lot at Recoil Magazine fell for the hype, and added a little extra to try and appear more “socially responsible” or whatever the latest term for this kind of silliness is. It would be good if both would lose business – there are good products sold by other companies that do not treat law abiding gun buyers as potential criminals. The Halseys and Recoil would do well to compete with the New York Times and other failing anti gun outfits considering they share the same mindset.

  38. avatarmblakely says:

    Even if you could buy the MP7 where would you find the 4.6×30 ammo? After I found some Canadians can buy a version for $11,000 plus 2 five round mags. I looked all over the net for ammo. Ammo is rumored at about $.50 a round.

    I am a fan of most things HK, I really wish the MP7 was the gun that got Bin Laden, but I don’t think it was. The PS90 and P90 are pretty nice weapons, and if you don’t like the look, buy a USC and do a UMP conversion or something in the MP5 class. You can buy tons of great guns who cares if you can’t buy the MP7.

    • avatarDerek Dauma says:

      Ummm…it’s the principle of the thing?

      There shouldn’t be a single firearm that I am prohibited from buying.

      Until Title 18, Section 922 USC is struck in its entirety and all 50 states have permitless laissez-faire carry we need to fight.

      “Shall not be infringed.”

    • avatarmatt says:

      If your willing to spend 11k on a gun, i’m assuming you can afford a bullet swaging setup (2 – 3k) and fire forming brass.

    • avatarS&W M&P9 L says:

      @Mblakely you must not have looked hard enough for ammo, Midway has it for $35 a box

  39. avatarRob Pincus says:

    Here’s the list of Advertisers:
    General tire – generaltire.com
    Magpul – magpul.com
    Barrett – barrett.net
    Smith optics elite – smithelite.com
    Streichers – streichers.com
    Daniel defense – danieldefense.com
    Tactical night vision company – tnvc.com
    Daystar – daystarweb.com
    Pioneer – pioneerelectronics.com/android
    Interco Tire – intercotire.com
    Rock river arms – rockriverarms.com
    5.11 tactical clothing – 511tactical.com
    Mechanix wear – mechanix.com
    Swr suppressors – swrsuppressors.com
    Knights armament company – knightarmco.com
    Imminent threat solutions – itstactical.com
    Glock worx – glockworx.com
    Gemtech silences – gemtech.com
    Make ready videos – makeready.tv
    Trijicon – trijicon.com
    Haley strategic – haleystrategic.com
    Larue tactical – larue.com
    Mossberg – flexyourmossberg.com
    Tactical tailor – tacticaltailor.com
    Springfield Armory – xdspistol.com
    Mission first tactical – missionfirsttactical.com
    Silencer co – silencerco.com (two ads)
    Bladetech concealment holsters – blade-tech.com
    YHM – yhm.net
    Bushmaster firearms – bushmaster.com
    Discount tire – discounttiredirect.com
    Fisher’s atv world – fishersatvworld.com
    Advanced armament corp. – advanced-armament.com
    DSGarms – dsgarms.com
    Spikes tactical – spikestactical.com
    Road armor – roadarmor.com
    Juggernaut tactical – jtactical.com
    Winchester ammunition – Winchester.com
    American tactical – americantactical.us
    Gunvault – gunvault.com
    Night optics usa – nightoptics.com
    Tapco – tapco.com
    Itw military products – itwmilitaryproducts.com
    Vortex tactical – vortextactical.com
    Em gear – emgear.com
    Jager products inc – jagerproducts.com
    Precision reflex inc – precisionreflex.com
    Laser devices – laserdevices.com
    Leupold tactical optics – tacticaloptics@leupold.com
    Harbor freight tools – harborfreight.com
    Oc armory – ocarmory.com
    Tec x knives – tecx.com
    Mega arms – mega-arms.com
    Recoil magazine – recoilweb.com (hey, they advertised, might as well ask them to boycott their own magazine )
    Cross breed holsters – crossbreedholsters.com
    Nightforce optics inc – nightforceoptics.com
    Chiappa firearms ltd – mkschiappa.com
    Tacti – cool guns and gear – facebook.com/TactiCoolGunsGearInc (they didn’t have a website listed, so I think they just have a facebook presence)
    Close quarter battle k9 – alex@cqbk9.com
    Camillus knives – Camillusknives.com
    Us tactical supply – ustacticalsupply.com
    Sheep dogs inc clothing – sheepdogsinc.com
    Pro tool – protoolindustries.net
    Warrior one guns & ammo – warrioronegunsandammo.com
    Spartan blades – spartanbladesusa.com
    Adam & eve – adamandeve.com (yup, a naughty video and goody company)
    Bravo company usa – bravocompanyusa.com, bravocompanymfg.com
    Falken tire – facebook.com/falkentire

  40. avatarAPBTFan says:

    To be fair to all the advertisers I’m sure they had no idea that RECOIL was going to print a dumbass article like that.

    Daystar will be getting an inquiry from me because I’m in the market for a poly bushing set for my 2000 Wrangler. With Energy Suspensions and Prothane selling similar kits I’m curious about their response.

    I’m curious about Vortex too. I’ve been eyeing their StrikeFire dot sight for my AR.

  41. avatarChach says:

    posted 2 mins ago on Facebook

    I’d like to address the comments regarding what I wrote in the MP7A1 article in RECOIL issue 4. First and foremost, I’d like to apologize for any offense that I have caused with the article. With the benefit of hindsight, I now understand the outrage, and I am greatly saddened that it was initiated by my words. Especially since, I am an unwavering supporter of 2nd Amendment Rights. I’ve chosen to spend a significant part of both my personnel and professional life immersed in this enthusiasm, so to have my support of individuals’ rights called into doubt is extremely unfortunate. With that said, I retract what I wrote in the offending paragraph within this article. It should have had been presented with more clarity.

    In the article, I stated some information that was passed on to me about why the gun is not available for civilian purchase. By no means did I intend to imply that civilians are not responsible, nor do we lack the judgment to own such weapons, if I believed anything approaching this, clearly I would lead a much different life. I also mentioned in the article that the gun had no sporting purpose. This again, was information passed on to me and reported in the article without the necessary additional context. I believe everything published in RECOIL up to this point (other than this story), demonstrates we clearly understand and completely agree that guns do not need to have a sporting purpose in order for them to be rightfully available to civilians. In retrospect, I should have presented this information in a clearer manner. Although I can understand the manufacturer’s stance on the subject, it doesn’t mean that I agree with it.

    Again, I acknowledge the mistakes I made and for them I am truly sorry.

    Sincerely,
    Jerry Tsai
    Editor
    RECOIL

    • avatarRIGHT! says:

      Dear Jerry T.
      As Editor you made a conscious choice to put that anti- 2nd A. carp in your magazine. FOAD
      sincerely……

    • avatargunowner930 says:

      If you were an “unwavering supporter of 2nd Amendment rights” you never would have written that garbage. Seriously, WTF are “assault rifle capabilities?” You claim that you were merely passing on information without proper context. That’s laughable, you made the comments about this PDW being too potent for “civvies.” You even said that this firearm contains technology that no civilian should have access to. Additionally, you even brought up the “sporting purposes” canard. Please re-write this drivel with the “proper context.” Jerry, if somehow you come across this reply, you are a fraud, a liar, and I hope your rag of magazine gets flushed down the toilet. Hey, look on the bright side, I’m sure Josh Sugarmann could use an anti-gun editor like yourself. I don’t see much difference between your article and the horseshit that comes out of Sugarmann’s rotten little mouth.

    • avatartheaton says:

      And he digs the hole even deeper.

  42. avatarsdsponger says:

    Jerry Tsai just posted an apology on the Recoil Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/Recoil.gun.lifestyle

  43. avatarBart says:

    3 minutes ago on Recoils facebook page the editor put up another apology. This one was more of a retraction because the crap hit the fan so hard.

  44. avatarStant says:

    I could have forgiven the original post but not the Editors clarification and certainly not his profit driven apology.

  45. avatarRob Pincus says:

    The article could’ve been a slip and that would make his latest apology/retraction acceptable… but the attempted Justification he made in the middle… before his bosses or friends told him how serious the situation was, THAT was the nail in the coffin.

    His scripted retraction doesn’t even sound sincere… it sounds like he resigned himself to giving up defending his real position.

    -RJP

  46. avatarCuban Pete says:

    Interestingly, about 1 year ago I was at a training event (I’m a Federal Employee) with a bunch of FBI guys. One of them and I hit it off pretty quickly since both of us had been gunnery officers – he in the Army, myself in the USN. One thing got to another and this FBI agent told me straight off: You want to penetrate a Bureau vest, just use a 6.8mm Remington Spec.

    Who needs an H&K with an overrated .17hmr when you have it straight from the agent’s mouth!!

    Of course, I quickly reminded the fine Special Agent that he, the US Armed Forces, and I, are in the same team.

  47. avatarJohn Boch says:

    Pincus: “Personally, the MP7 is one of the few guns on the planet that I would rush out and pay H&K Retail Price for, if it were ever offered for civilian sale. I’ve had the pleasure of shooting them many times and training teams that use them.”

    Rob, I’m not sure the metric by which you have this affinity for this HK product, aside from the fact if you’re like me you’ve got one of most decent things made and this might be a nice add to the collection.

    I do have to say, how is it that you can train teams on this god-like weapon (per Jerry Tsai) without owning one and having been extensively trained on it and then used it in the field to put down bad people ad nauseum?

    Or is it that there’s nothing really special with this latest HK black gun to come down the elitist pike from the arrogant bastards at H&K?

    As for thoughts about the shitbags at Recoil:
    Personally, I have owned a host of HK products over the years, to include a -91, -94 and an -89. I’ve seen some of their newer products and trained alongside them. Frankly if this MP7 doesn’t shoot any better than their carbine rifle they released a few years ago, you’re not missing anything (except the target if you had one).

    Perhaps Mr. Tsai got caught up in the HK philosophy of “we won’t sell black guns to American civilians” (which, by the way, is why I haven’t bought any HK products for almost 15 years now).

    In fact, some folks say the unofficial motto at HK is “Because you suck, and we hate you”. Don’t believe me? Google it. (About 18,900,000 results (0.22 seconds)).

    Jerry Tsai came out this weekend with a lame-brained apology, basically doubling down on “we don’t want this gun available to civilians because it might fall into the ‘wrong’ hands”.

    Well, Jerry, it’s just a gun and the anti-gunners have been saying the same thing about *all* guns for decades now. And you want gun owners to buy your fecal-matter publication? Go self-procreate, boy.

  48. avatarJwhite says:

    OH the irony. You wouldn’t want it to fall into the wrong hands, but give it some time.. It will… Some gang member will join the army (true story *gasp*) he’ll be working the armory, and *poof* some gear will go missing and somehow one of these will make it’s way to Mexico, or the streets of LA and the saber rattling over “Shoulder things that go up” will commence all over again.

    I guess the up side to all this is that ammo is hard to find, and if one where so inclined they might have to order the ammo online, and seeing how thats the only gun that shoots that very specific round, it shouldn’t be hard to recover, or at least have a general idea as to where the gun is in the country… Dont quote me.

  49. avatarBen C says:

    So, agreeing with the logic of a manufacture’s right to prevent their product from being sold to civilians is an attack on the 2nd Amendment? It sounds like a confirmation of corporate responsibility to me. Well done HK, but for RECOIL you should know thy audience better.

  50. avatarGerald Clark says:

    Seems like many civilians just want everything and any law prohibiting it is taken as a communist-nazi government taking away our rights. We want tanks and anti-aircraft guns because “I have a right to bear arms.” I want a nuclear warhead to go off in the woods in “sporting” ventures. Don’t deny me that right. Do we NEED every and all weapons made. Some states ban fully auto weapons. We don’t need them. We don’t want hunters spraying the woods with lead at a running deer. Nor would I want to be in a situation where a gunman is on the streets and 20 other law-abiding citizens all open up on him with fully autos sending a wall of lead in all directions. There’s a limit to how much we NEED, folks.

    • avatarJake says:

      Government does not dictate individual needs. And nobody is talking about going after deer with this thing, nor is it remotely likely that all or even many citizens would be walking around tooled up full auto if they were allowed. You should see if there are any openings in the missing the point completely department, you could make some serious bank.

  51. avatarWm Stuart says:

    I picked the mag up at an IL airport. Thought the info was a bit basic…i.e look at this and buy this. Just a bunch of pictures.

    Sad the editor actually published a “military type” GUN LIFESTYLE magazine and he does not understand the reason for the SECOND AMENDMENT. There is a reason it is NUMBER TWO…..It keeps all the other Amendments viable and enforceable. I will NEVER EVER purchase TRASH like this. The correct account of why “those guys” sat around a table and made this ” NUMBER TWO IS TO PROTECT OURSELVES FROM THE GOVERNMENT……SIMPLE AS THAT…….How dare they publish a GUN LIFESTYLE magazine that creates doubt about why it is the most important Amendment EVER CREATED.

    Go edit MAD MAGAZINE. That is if they will have you.

  52. avatarSam M says:

    I’m sorry guys but your taking this to the extreme. Don’t punish the entire publication over the writings of one author. I know these comments and article were written before the Sandy Hook shooting, but we need to stick together. I don’t believe the author takes the 2nd Amendment any less serious than the rest of us. I can tell you one thing, these type of comments and extreme reactions turn off a lot of potential firearm supporters.

  53. avatarJeh says:

    Is the MP7 a badass gun? Yes. Does it have sporting purpose? Sure why not. Would I get one? No. I dont know about you, but a gun that shoots grains of rice, gloating of the ability to penetrate Soviet-era armor doesnt sound too challenging. Im no fan of HK to start but id rather not feed the German hogs my money for a would be over priced piece of eye candy. Its like the HK416, just because it was on Future Weapons doesnt mean its gold.
    What got me is how they make it seem bad being left handed, we make up a hell of a chunk of the gun community.

  54. avatarWilliam says:

    If he had me at all, he totally lost me at “brothers in law enforcement”. At first I though he was talking about my philandering ex-brother-in-law, in whose face I wouldn’t hesitate to spit. And I ain’t the spittin’ kind.

    And cops – they ain’t my brother, either.

  55. avatarTexas gun owner says:

    I’m a responsible gun owner. I have been since I had my first Remington nylon 66 at age 8. If you are a mature responsible gun owner, you should be able to have whatever you want. LE is not better than me .I am safe, and do not hurt or rob other people. Our founding fathers did not put any stipulations on the amendment when they wrote it. This country was found on god and guns. The law abiding hard working citizen should not have any restrictions whatsoever , unless they prove that they are a danger to us by being an idiot !
    I do like the look of your magazine, but I will no longer be purchasing it.

  56. Pingback: I Have a Right to Hate Guns | Political Ration

  57. avatarDavid says:

    Well I was literally JUST on my way over to the Recoil website to purchase a subscription, but forget that!

  58. avatarHans Freimann says:

    That really pisses me off. Of all the nerve. I didn’t like RECOIL anyways because it’s basically all pictures of Ian Harrison looking macho, and it borders on being a gay lifestyle rag, complete with fashion tips. I don’t know who it’s targeted towards, but I’m guessing their readers are mostly wannabe green berets on SWAT teams, proabably the kind who drink craft beer out of fancy glasses and have tribal tattoos. Pretty soon they’ll be reviewing tactical hair care products and frosting their tips. We should send that queer back to England where he obviously belongs. He should be ashamed of himself…

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