Can You ID the Jackwagon in the Group?

By Elizabeth

I recently attended my local training/certification session to obtain my CCW permit. That I’ve made it so far in this liberal SF Bay Area county is a story in itself, but it’s one for another day. This story, though, is about one of the other class attendees. We’ll call him Jack. Jack Wagon . . .

There were only four attendees at the class. I was the only female and decades behind the other three in firearms experience. The classroom portion contained the basic firearms safety and Cali gun law review that you’d expect, so let’s fast forward to the shooting qualification.

The instructor was in the indoor range qualifying a couple of people to add firearms to their permits. Yes, in my county we have to list the specific weapons we’ll be carrying concealed, qualify with them and have them listed on our permits. And we’re limited to a grand total of two firearms on each concealed carry license. I’m not sure that restricting the number of weapons on the permit is even permissible under California law, but I’ll leaving that issue for another time.

Two of the other attendees and I were hanging out in the waiting area when two things happened simultaneously – there was a very loud BANG and something hit my leg.

Before I go any further, let me assure you that I did, indeed, survive the experience. No ghost-writing here. Although being able to literally ghost-write would be more than a little cool.

Before determining the state of my leg, I looked in the direction of the sound to assess the threat. The bang came from the direction of the attendee sitting at the table. It was Jack. Mr. Jack Wagon had his pistol in his hand, pointed, thankfully, at the floor.

Quick leg check: not even a hole in my jeans, so I’m okay. Look back to Jack. Mr. Wagon is now trying frantically to remove the magazine from his pistol but has apparently forgotten how. That’s when the range master comes running down the hall and tells Jack to put the gun down. Then he tells him again. And tells him a third time, his voice getting sharper with each repetition.

Jack Wagon is really starting to lose it now, still trying to get that magazine out of his pistol. And the muzzle’s starting to move in my general direction, so I move away. Fast. Yeah, I should have done that sooner, but my gut reaction was, with all his firearms experience, Mr. Wagon would have enough sense enough to put the gun down and follow the range master’s instructions, right? Silly me.

After being told to put the gun down a fourth time, Jack finally lays it down and he and his weapon are swiftly removed from the area by the range master.

I’ve read plenty of comments here at TTAG and at other firearms forums about people doing stupid things at firing ranges. But it took this incident to discover that I had been operating under a number of dangerously wrong preconceived notions: 1) that the only people doing stupid things were inexperienced with firearms, 2) that the people doing stupid things were new to firing ranges and/or 3) that the stupid things they did were only done on the range itself.

I hope this cautionary tale serves as a warning that, when it comes to stupid people doing stupid things with guns you should make no assumptions. And for your own safety, purge your mind of any preconceived notions. That’s going to take a little time and effort, but next time you’re at the range or anywhere else where you’re around other people and firearms, pay attention to the things you automatically notice and — more important — the things you automatically dismiss.

Think about what you’d tell someone who’s new to the range/event/whatever in terms of hazards to watch out for. I suspect that for many of you such an exercise would be a real eye-opener as to what you dismiss without a second thought.

For instance, one of the other attendees standing near me was the most experienced of the group, yet even he didn’t notice Jack Wagon taking his pistol out. Thought he did see – and I didn’t – that during the entire time that Jack was fumbling around, trying to remove the mag, his finger was still on the trigger. So there’s another assumption to watch out for – that the jackwagon doing idiotic things is finished being lethally stupid once the gun goes bang.

In discussing the incident with the other attendees after Wagon was ejected, we noted a number of things that should have tipped us off about him. Chief among them was his attitude towards the whole training and certification process. The class was posted as running from 8 am to 3 pm, yet Jack told the instructor at the start that he wanted to be out of there by 11 am. And he already knew all the classroom material, so couldn’t we just skip right to the shooting?

In hindsight, a number of comments and questions during the classroom portion should have ID’d him as, well, a jackwagon. Including how, during the introductory portion when I described my (lack of) firearms experience, Wagon was quick to note that he didn’t want to stand next to me at the range.

So it’s with great satisfaction that I’m able to report that, while Jack was removed from the range and denied certification, I passed. And that Wagon will only ever get a permit in this county if he changes his name and chooses a certification instructor who doesn’t know the one we had. And maybe not even then. And I feel safer knowing that.

comments

  1. avatar DrewN says:

    I’m guessing anyone with enough pull to be considered for a CCW in the Bay Area won’t have the slightest problem getting a do over.

    1. avatar girlswithguns says:

      It’s certainly possible, but this is a relatively small county and there are only a few approved certification classes. I’m hoping the instructors of those classes communicate with each other.

      1. avatar DrewN says:

        Well, I never thought I’d see any of Marin,Sonoma,Napa,Solano,Contra Costa,Alameda, Santa Clara,Santa Cruz, San Mateo or SF counties become shall issue, so that’s good. Even Yolo is a PITA.

  2. avatar Not Too Eloquent says:

    I’m confused. What hit your leg? The bullet? The brass? Just the jeans? Thanks.

    What kind of moron walks into a 8AM to 3PM class and requests to be out by 11AM?

    1. avatar Cyrus Eck says:

      Probably a chunk of concrete from the floor or wall. knocked free by the bullet.

    2. avatar girlswithguns says:

      I have no idea what hit my leg, so I’m guessing debris from the floor or wall. I don’t know if they ever ascertained which one it hit.

  3. avatar Jim Scrummy says:

    I’d call him Mr. Jackhole, or maybe just jackhole. What a d-bag.

  4. avatar Chas says:

    Why is there one of these morons in EVERY permit class? I had one in mine, and my son had one in his, who decided that he could teach the class better than either of the two QUALIFIED instructors.

    1. avatar Buuurr says:

      Me too.. I had one in mine. A dude and his girlfriend sitting in back. Instructor asked him to hold a gun and he literally had it pointed at his GF’s head within seconds of being given it stating, ‘How nice this Five Seven feels.’…

      He got his permit too. And made a number of statements that made the instructor angry. He got his permit though. Bullshit.

  5. avatar JoshinGA says:

    And the level of ineptitude of some gun owners in this country continues to amaze me.

  6. avatar mike says:

    It’s always the loud-mouth know-it-all jokers with the big egos.

  7. avatar Hoppes#9 says:

    It’s called Dunning-Kruger Syndrome, and it is incurable. Those afflicted with it are alike as raindrops.

    1. avatar jkp says:

      Nice.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

      “The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.[1]

      Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. As Kruger and Dunning conclude, “the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others” (p. 1127).[2]”

      1. avatar Rich says:

        Insert obligatory Obama reference here.

        1. avatar g says:

          Insert obligatory Mitt Romney reference response here.

        2. avatar GS650G says:

          “It’s not braggin’ if you can do it:
          Mitt did
          Obama don’t

    2. avatar bontai Joe says:

      I had no idea that there was a name for this “affliction”.

      Elizabeth, I’m very glad that you and no one else for that matter was injured. Thank you for sharing your experience in obtaining your CCW permit. You mentioned some things that I will always keep in mind when at a range.

    3. avatar Billy Wardlaw says:

      So glad to see someone else who is familiar with this phenomenon. I used to give Dunning-Krueger Awards to people on youtube, in the comments section.

  8. avatar LeftShooter says:

    Elizabeth,

    Thanks for this post. I think the real question for everyone is: does this “screening” of Jack Wagon make you feel better about required CCW courses?

    1. avatar Leo Atrox says:

      Ooo … Anyone got a can opener for this here can o’ worms? 😉

  9. avatar Roll says:

    I try and grab an end table at the range I go to. I dont like having my back to th eguns that are being fired, even though I know who is doing the shooting. I’ve been mostly blessed to not have experienced jackwagons on the range.

  10. avatar jkp says:

    Glad you’re okay, Elizabeth….

    ….now tell us: howintheheck did you get this far in the permit process in the Bay Area?

    1. avatar girlswithguns says:

      The sheriff in our county, for reasons unknown, eased his permitting restrictions. That is, he stopped limiting CCW’s to celebrities and people who have had verified death threats.

      1. avatar Aharon says:

        Is he the same San Francisco County sheriff who was arrested on allegations of domestic violence (voiced by his neighbor) that he supposedly committed against his wife (she took her husband’s side in support of him I think) and then the sheriff had his own guns taken away?

        …only in San Francisco.

      2. avatar Blake says:

        Elizabeth, I have a CA CCW myself, and, according to my instructor, Sacramento County became “shall issue” because the county commissioners told the Sheriff he was about to lose a lawsuit pertaining to CCW issuance and the commissioners were not going to back the sheriff.

        It is very possible your county took note and your local Sheriff was put on notice also.

        1. avatar Aaron says:

          Yeah, Sacramento County went shall-issue and adopted the Calguns Foundation model CCW policy to avoid Sykes v. McGinness. Yay!

          We also badgered SF county sheriff’s dept. into actually having an issuance policy at all. 🙂

        2. avatar Blake says:

          Aaron,

          Do you happen to know if Calguns is fighting CCW on Second Amendment and Fourteenth Amendment grounds?

          Seems to me with the rampant crony CCW issuance in CA, California would be wide open to a lawsuit on 14th amendment grounds.

  11. avatar David says:

    OK, I’ve just got to ask! Not to overlook the obvious; but,

    WHAT, THE HELL, WERE YOU PEOPLE DOING WITH GUNS AND LIVE AMMUNITION IN THE CLASSROOM/WAITING ROOM AREA?

    Is this how they run firearms training classes in California? I haven’t seen guns AND ammo in the same waiting area since the last time I watched the, ‘Blackhawk Down’ DVD.

    1. avatar girlswithguns says:

      The guns and ammo were supposed to be, according to the instructors directions, the range rules, and common-freakin-sense, confined to their cases until one enters the actual range. And the guns inside the cases are supposed to be unloaded. Count how many rules had to broken for this to happen, and all of them in less than two minutes.

        1. avatar Michael c says:

          And only TWO of them had to be broken.

    2. avatar Fla Catman says:

      Amen, Brother Dave! Here in the heart of gun crazy Flawridduh where well armed cowboys inhabit every pick-em-up truck, we have a lot of knowledgeable and CAREFUL instructors. All personal guns brought to CCW class must be checked at door and not brought into class. Ammunition is not allowed in classroom at any time. For the practical part of actually firing a weapon, several company guns are provided (revolver and semis) and only two people are allowed to fire at the range at any one time. That allows the (armed) instructor to observe individuals very carefully for their gun handling skills.

      Funny that Florida is considered a “liberal” gun state while California has some tight restrictions.

      1. avatar Mark N. says:

        Like any place else, trainers and training programs vary widely. The standard under state law is “up to” 16 hours of insruction for a first issuance of a CCW (usually half class and half shooting) and 4 hours on a renewal. The actually requirments imposed by the loacl county sheriff can vary widely as well. San Fran, although forced to adopt a policy, also tried to require mandatory insurance, a mandatory psych eval and a mandatory qualification at the local SFPD range, using PO range qualification standards, and with the applicant paying for the range officers time and a rental fee for the facility–which boosted the cost of a CCW to well over $1000–and which violates state law. The last year for which statistics are available (2011) show NO CCWs issued for SF. (Surprise surprise). The last sheriff was vicuferously anti-ccw, and the new one, legal troubles aside, is no better even though, despite his anti-gun rhetoric, it turned out he was a gun owner himself.[Hypocrite. Well, politician–no diff.]

    3. avatar TTACer says:

      Her experience notwithstanding, I don’t see what the problem with having loaded guns anywhere is. Three states “allow” CCW with no permit process, and many more allow open carry w/o a permit.

    4. avatar Henry Bowman says:

      Um, I’m sure every person who has ever owned a gun has had their ammo and their firearm in the same room before. As long as the 4 universal firearms safety rules are followed, this incident never happens. Adding extra rules to training environments propogates fear of the inanimate tool instead of focusing on the responsibile actions of each individual.

      1. avatar JoshinGA says:

        Uh, most all of my handguns are stored with loaded mags in them. Treat them like they’re always loaded anyway. May as well have them be useful should the need arise.

        1. avatar Henry Bowman says:

          Exactly.

        2. avatar Accur81 says:

          Amen to that. I treat them always as if they are loaded – because they probably are.

  12. avatar Bill Baldwin says:

    Hmmm, I suppose that’s a sure fire way to get out of class early.

  13. avatar Pascal says:

    As a NRA Safety instructor in my state, yes, there is one almost in every couple of class.

    I usually take them aside during breaks if I can spot them during class as being “Jakeholes” and explain that they can SHTFU and listen, or leave because I am under no obligation to pass them and there is no refund. During the practical portion, I use a assistant, usually my GF or my brother so they can watch one student load while I instruct another on shooting and everyone has to load a magazine in the back table and insert it in the pistol at the ledge at the firing line. The is a dance because I have them fire ..22lr, 380 AUTO, 38special, 9mm, 40mm and 45mm [Many new shooters stop at 9mm or 40mm as being too much after just one shot]

    EVEN after that, I have still had the accidental discharge but at least down range or at the floor in front of the firing line and I can tell you, peoples brains turn to mush when that happens which is why I stand on the strong hand side and grab their wrist when it happens to get control of the muzzle direction — I even had one women once simply just drop the gun like she was handling a hot potato. Not my class but a fellow instructor had a women shoot out a light at the range which he then had to pay to have repaired.

    Needless to say, I have had to reject people which is always a fun confrontation but except for loosing money and time, nothing stops them from taking another class with another person because there is no database of failed safety course students.

    So, yeah, after seeing what I have seen, I believe that at least a safety course should be required. [And no, I don’t make much money so there is no motive in that because I don’t do classes on a weekly basis]

    The issue with firearms is some people are over confident in themselves and other times people are simply not thinking. This is why we have the four rules and why you must treat every gun as if its loaded, because you may have a bad day from time to time and you don’t want to make it a really bad day.

    I have also met people at parties who would like to learn, but are afraid of making that one fatal mistake, so maybe its probably a good thing they don’t have a permit.

    It happens.

    On a side note, my next door neighbor is a drivers ed instructor, and he has many stories of close calls and also battle scares from actual auto accidents.

    1. avatar Bill Baldwin says:

      40mm and 45mm

      Wow, you teach grenade launching, too? Sweet!

      1. avatar Moonshine7102 says:

        Sign me up!

      2. avatar zbaer says:

        Milkor MGL: best CCW revolver ever.

      3. avatar Pascal says:

        By the time I realized I was a bafoon, the time had expired to edit. I deserve that!

        But, to your comment, I teach class with a M&P 40c and Glock 21 so that some newb does not purchase more gun than they can handle day one. It has helped a lot of people choose something else as a first gun.

        1. avatar Bill Baldwin says:

          at least you don’t start them off on a .9mm and continue to a 50 cal.

          A perpetual edit button would be sweet, but sometimes it’s more fun without one.

  14. avatar Jason says:

    The thought has crossed my mind that statistically I’m probably more likely to be shot since I’m a member of an indoor range. I haven’t seen anybody doing anything stupid but the baffling material on the sides of the outer lanes is shot to $hit. I hear they have to replace the lights on the lanes somewhat often.

    I also think that there is a danger when people become too complacent. When I got my first gun I was hyper aware every time I came in contact with it. Although still aware, I now think of it more like just a tool. I think there is a danger in getting too comfortable.

    I had a reloading incident recently. I always look in the case each time my lee auto turret dumps power to make sure there is a load. I ran out of powder mid-run and noticed an empty case. The thought crossed my mind that the one before might not have had a full load. But I thought, I know I saw powder, there must have been enough to send it down the pipe. I was wrong. Squib load stuck in barrel. To make matters worse I didn’t realize it right away and was only saved by the gun not going back into battery. When I first started reloading I was very paranoid. Somehow I got to the point of ‘no problem, it should be fine’. This has nothing to do with the case of this d-bag from this story but is more of a tangent that comfort breeds stupidity.

    1. avatar Robert says:

      …When I got my first gun I was hyper aware every time I came in contact with it. Although still aware, I now think of it more like just a tool. I think there is a danger in getting too comfortable….

      Yes, indeed. This falls into the “a little know-how is a dangerous thing.” As soon as you gain some familiarity, you handle it quicker and less carefully. If you’re wise, you’ll notice this — and Stop. It.

      There have always been negligent discharges, but I wonder if they have become more common because fewer gun owners these days have gone through basic military range training? (Not saying that all former military people are paragons of range safety.) Or maybe we’re simply more aware of ND incidents because the internet makes sharing experiences easier.

  15. avatar Brad_in_MA says:

    I refer to one Lee Paige . . . . a DEA agent giving a firearms demonstration. He claimed to be the only one “professional enough” in the room to handle a Glock pistol. Mr. Paige then promptly shot himself though the foot.

    http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/bizarre/dea-agent-foot-shoot-suit

    1. avatar JoshinGA says:

      That is one of my favorite videos ever. Goes on a self righteous rant, literally and figuratively shoots himself in the foot.

  16. avatar Greg Camp says:

    Jackwagon–that’s a new term for me. The ancient Greeks called such people idiots, persons who weren’t capable of participating in the public sphere.

    1. avatar mchad says:

      As far as i know this is the origin of “jackwagon”

  17. avatar Aharon says:

    Elizabeth,

    Wow, great story and glad that you’re ok. You write extremely well.
    You wrote: “pay attention to the things you automatically notice and — more important — the things you automatically dismiss” That is good advice to apply to firearm safety, people, and most other areas of life too. For everyone’s sake I hope Jack’s real name and DMV # are logged into one of California’s databases denying him a permit forever.

    It seems that Jack’s ignorance and arrogance combined with his lack of common sense and counter-productive reaction to a misfire kept pushing him deeper into the rabbit hole of panic. This story is a good lesson of how experience does not necessarily equate to skill.

    1. avatar Hasdrubal says:

      Forever is a long time. If classes are to be required, then log him so he can receive extra attention from the instructor if he decides to try again. That way, he can either learn, or have less chance of slipping through the cracks.

      1. avatar Aharon says:

        He’s an idiot lacking emotional maturity, common sense, and concern for other people’s safety. If there is going to be a next time he could possibly bluff his way through the day class pretending to be sincere and following the rules just to get his permit. He is high risk and does not deserve it.

  18. avatar Tommy Knocker says:

    Gun folks suffer from an overwhelming desire to love all fellow gun owners. To be friendly and welcoming. That every gun owner is just sweetness and light. Don’t really know the psychology of it.

    In reality, they are a cross section of society. You have criminals, numbnuts, morons, thinkers, bullies and push overs, skilled and unskilled in the mix. When I walk into the DMV I don’t just bubble over with love, cause all these cretins are proud car owners. Why would I think the guy who buys a gun is my friend or safe to be around? As good old Harry Truman said, “if you want a friend, buy a dog”.

  19. avatar snuffalufagus says:

    He must have been really impatient…. so did he get out of there before 11?

    1. avatar girlswithguns says:

      Yes 🙂

  20. avatar CinSC says:

    You haven’t truly lived until you’ve been shot at. Glad you lived to tell the tale.

    My brush with lead also happened at a range: the range was cold and we were checking out targets at 100 yards when “POP POP POP!” One of our friends up range had started showing off his itty-bitty 9mm of and without thinking fired off a few rounds. We yelled at him from our end and, laughing, inspected ourselves for punctures and found none. When I got back up range the offender was sitting down, head hung low I just said “was that you?” He sheepishly said “Yeah, it was me.”

    I think that was the last time I went shooting with him.

    1. avatar Rambeast says:

      Was this at the Twin Ponds Rifle Range?

      1. avatar CinSC says:

        No, but close. It happened just north of McClellanville.

        1. avatar Rambeast says:

          I have had 2 instances of careless shooters on the range. The worst was a gentleman that brought his 2 kids up to shoot, and was tossing skeet up. I politely informed him that there are hiking trails beyond the 100yd berm and that he might want to stop having his kids shoot over it. He told one of the kids to throw them low. The look of insult on his face was obvious when I immediately packed up my things and left. I now only frequent that range to volunteer for cleanup, and when I do shoot there, it’s only before 9am. The dangerous ones tend to show up after 10am.

  21. avatar DerryM says:

    Elizabeth. Good story and good points in your post-event analysis. Very glad you weren’t injured and congratulations on your success with the certification. Good points from comments, too.
    Just goes to show the law of averages is not anyone’s friend and the only way to keep those odds in your favor is to be focused and aware in all gun handling situations, especially those where other people are also handling guns. There are closet Jack Wagon’s everywhere.
    I go to a rifle range where there is no weekday Range Master and Members are responsible for running the Range “by ad hoc committee”. Once, about ten years ago, myself, my wife and one other guy were there shooting and a fourth guy showed-up. He was unpacking his gear and getting set-up to the far left of the rest of us and there are block wall partitions between the shooting stations. The usual procedure is to call for a firing break when you are ready to set your targets. I was about to shoot when out of the corner of my eye i saw movement downrange to my left. The other guy was way far to my right and shooting. I jerked my head up as I laid down my rifle and saw the new guy down the Range attempting to set up a target. My wife saw all this at about the same time and ran to the second guy and stopped him from firing. All three of us secured our weapons and pretty much charged downrange to the new guy. There ensued a surprisingly calm discussion with him about joining the “ad hoc range committee” and following the same procedures as the rest of us. Turned-out he was new to the Club, it was his first time shooting there on a weekday and he “had no idea” he could ask for a firing break, which we would gladly oblige, So all went amicably well after the discussion. This was probably the scariest experience I ever had at a Range. Ever after that I always stop when someone else shows up and go talk to them before they get a chance to possibly go downrange while live fire is in progress. Complacency and assuming anyone else will figure-out for themselves the Safe and Sane thing to do IS the friend of the law of averages for bad things to happen. That day the first three of us on that Range were guilty of both and got incredibly lucky. I was taught a lesson I will never forget.

  22. avatar Charles5 says:

    The indoor range I am a member of is for Military, Dependents, DOD Law Enforcement and guests only (It is on a base). For the most part, everyone there is very competent. However, they do have alot of young kids coming in that do not have any firearms experience (mostly dependents or friends of service members). I encourage that. However, they tend to not know what they are doing and they always seem to bring their girlfriends in high heels. There are two shooting bays with 8 lanes each. Thankfully, the range staff tend to keep the newbies segregated from us regulars.

    However, I still see some pretty stupid stuff, even among the so called “regulars.” My own experiences and stories like Elizabeth’s are why I am working on talking my wife into buying some land out in the country where I can build my own range.

    1. avatar Ralph says:

      they always seem to bring their girlfriends in high heels.

      Saw a gaggle of young ladies at the range last week wearing makeup, nice dresses and high heels. They were quite safe, very focused and having fun. All in all, I considered it a nice change of pace from camo. They looked a lot better than the average range rover, and they smelled a lot better, too.

      1. avatar Rambeast says:

        Ahh, the smell of perfume and spent powder. Always gets my blood pumping. 😉

      2. avatar Sanchanim says:

        Yeah you know showering now and a gain does wonders! 🙂

      3. avatar Aharon says:

        “Saw a gaggle of young ladies at the range last week wearing makeup, nice dresses and high heels”

        Are you positive they were not dudes in drag? If you are positive how do you really know for sure?

      4. avatar jwm says:

        Just went to the range this morning. Young lady by herself in the stall next to me. Had on pink earmuffs and was shooting a .45. Doing good with it too.

  23. avatar Gyufygy says:

    Fear of looking like Sir Jack Wagon of Doucheville > Fear of looking like a noob.

    Don’t be “That” guy. Better to ask a stupid question or go through the motions an extra time or two than to be a safety hazard.

    1. avatar Moonshine7102 says:

      Exactly. Which will make you look (and feel) more stupid, asking a question or experiencing a ND?

  24. avatar Levi B says:

    Required permitting courses are an unconstitutional breach of freedoms, not to mention permits/licenses to carry in general.

    People, as responsible individuals, should have the wherewithal to seek training should they need it.

    What that man did was recklessly endanger the lives of people around him as well as himself. There should be legal consequences, but since he “didn’t hurt anybody” nothing will come of it.

    1. avatar CarlosT says:

      Multiple people here have made the “no harm, no foul” argument, but I personally don’t buy it. If a person is negligent and endangers someone or shows a complete disregard for the safety of others, then he deserves to be held responsible for his behavior. It’s just dumb luck that no one was hurt and the next time he and the people unfortunate enough to be around him might not be so lucky.

  25. avatar Sanchanim says:

    @Girlswithguns, thank goodness you are ok! Wow, just wow…
    I hate to say this but the 1o year old’s at our local range are safer than this idiot.
    I always like to say that since I was 8 I have never once been kicked off, removed or otherwise even warned at a range for bad behavior. Sure I might not be the best shot in the world, but I am darn well anal about safety, and safety of those around me.
    I have never seen a two gun limit from the state, but that doesn’t mean that the county didn’t decide what is in the best interest of the people, you know because we are incapable of being responsible and all.
    Congrats on getting through the red tape BTW!!!!
    I haven’t done mine yet because in San Joaquin where I live the local Sheriff is not shall issue. At least last time I checked. Although they did make it so you don’t go to the local Police, and it is through the county. I also hate the fact that yes in the state of California, you need to qualify on specific firearms. If you want to carry three or four you need to qualify on each and they register the serial number against your license. I find this utterly ridiculous. I much prefer Nevada’s way, which is revolver, and semi auto pistol. If you qualify on both, then you can carry anything you want.
    Sure we would love constitutional carry, but to be honest if they need to have a qualification process, then this at least makes sense.
    Like you noted there were only four in your class. Many instructors have stopped giving classes here in the valley because of the BS politics. They can’t make a living teaching four people a month or whatever. Plus the cost involved in qualifying, plus the $120 administrative fees, plus the interviews, make it so that only those with lots of money and time will actually get through the process, which takes a long time..

  26. avatar jwm says:

    In Kalifornia we have to be a resident of the county we apply for the ccw. This came about because we had a non bay area sherrif giving out permits to who ever applied for them. Just as in the case of open carry as soon as this was brought to the attention of the news the Dems in sacramento passed laws to require residency in the issueing counties. Is there still any question of why I don’t like DEms.

    1. avatar Accur81 says:

      You’re welcome to move to Orange County! The sheriff here is pretty decent at allowing CCW. On an unrelated note, OC is a Republican county.

      1. avatar DrewN says:

        ??? No she isn’t. She even routinely denies permits to reserve officers. She’s being sued as we speak.

  27. avatar Hasdrubal says:

    I once saw a combat veteran team leader go into a shoothouse, and when his weapon jammed, start smashing the buttstock against the ground in an attempt to clear the stoppage with complete disregard for all the officers and senior NCOs who were standing on the balcony above us to observe. He pointed his weapon at enough brass to keep me reloading for a year. No _formal_ punishment, but he wasn’t happy for a while…

    Shortly after that, he wasn’t my team leader, either.

  28. avatar Ralph says:

    Great story, Elizabeth. Thanks for posting it.

  29. avatar JP says:

    I am guessing Mr JW is the guy in the light green shirt with the Jackass rig under his shirt.

    1. avatar jwm says:

      I believe that might be his suspenders. Us ofwg’s are known to wear them.

  30. avatar Aaron says:

    Note to OP: CCW law is preempted by state law, which does NOT restrict the number of weapons you can list on your permit. There is an oddball wildcard (CA law makes almost anything written on the actual permit binding, so if they literally write “good for no more than two firearms” on the card you may have an issue).

    I’d strongly suggest going to calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/resources/ccw-initiative and taking a look at some of the information from our Sunshine and Compliance Initiative, then contact CGF to talk about your issue.

    I can’t promise anything, but we can probably help.

  31. avatar إبليس says:

    I’m really torn between hatred and pity here. Hatred of such gross incompetence, negligence, idiocy, and pity for being such a colossal f*ck up. The guy needs a flogging, gang initiation style beat down, and must be forced to write apologies to the class. After that relearning all the firearm rules and regs if we wishes to CCW.

    1. avatar Aharon says:

      Jack Wagon’s problem is not one of simply being ignorant of gun safety knowledge so much as it is one of being emotionally immature, using poor judgment ie lacking common sense, not following the rules, and freezing up under stress thus endangering others.

      1. avatar إبليس says:

        Which can be solved by violence, more violence, and humiliation.

  32. avatar Aaron says:

    To the OP (since my mobile comment seems to have failed to post):

    CA state law preempts any local regulations for CCWs. State law allows you to put as many weapons as you like on the permit, even if you need to add an attachment sheet. There is a weird wildcard where instructions listed on the physical permit are binding, but unless it’s literally written on the card, their policy is illegal.

    I’d strongly suggest going to http://calgunsfoundation.org/carry/ and contacting someone with our Sunshine and Compliance Initiative. That’s what we do; identify, warn, and eventually litigate counties/sheriffs/PDs with illegal policies.

    Thanks! 🙂

    1. avatar Aaron says:

      Sorry for the doublepost. You can also go to http://calgunsfoundation.org/resources/ccw-initiative/ltcfeedback.html to submit feedback on the carry application process so we can better identify problem counties and their specific issues. Thanks!

      1. avatar Sanchanim says:

        They also have a nice section on Just Cause for different counties! Yeah I know just cause should be just because, but you know that doesn’t fly with many..

  33. avatar David says:

    S.O.P. for ALL NRA classrooms and training: No guns AND ammunition, together, in the same classroom.

    THIS IS THE PRINCIPAL OUTRAGEOUS FIREARMS SAFETY MISTAKE LEE PAIGE AND HIS DEA ASSOCIATES MADE!

    No guns AND ammunition, anywhere, except on the firing line. As an Instructor I may NOT even carry a loaded gun in the classroom.

  34. avatar XH says:

    At the CC class I took, one of the instructors was the dimwit muzzling everything in the world with the guns he brought as demos the whole time. I couldn’t wait for him to just put the gun down and get back to the powerpoint slides.

    He also gave a whole pile of incorrect information regarding cross-dominance and shooting left handed. It was really obvious that he didn’t know what he was talking about on that topic. Plus his revolver bias was rediculous. While I learned a lot in the class about the law and what’s acceptable self defense in my state, I didn’t get any useful information about actual shooting from it.

    Sometimes the Jackwagon in the room is the one doing the teaching.

  35. avatar William says:

    Two questions: 1) what hit your leg? and 2) what are you supposed to do if your carry gun is at the smithy’s, qualify with a new weapon?

  36. avatar William says:

    And 3) I thought there were only four attendees. Am I being impertinent?

  37. avatar Grey Ghost says:

    Let’s just hope that Jack learned from his experience. Sure, he’s obtuse, but with luck he’s educable. I know a lot of experienced shooters who have had negligent discharges. You just get used to being around the firearms and you get, not exactly careless, but a little less attentive – and things happen. Like fender-benders while driving, which also have the potential to kill people.

    Sounds like this guy was just poorly focused, and while I agree that he was a jack wagon, let’s hope he became a better gun owner and handler because of it, and that he thanks whatever god he worships every day that he didn’t kill or injure someone.

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