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Loads of armed Americans load-up their home defense shotgun with less-lethal buckshot. More than a few owners of the shotshell firing Taurus Judge and Smith & Wesson Governor revolvers do likewise—at least for the first chamber or two. Wrong answer. There’s only one reason to shoot someone: if they pose a credible, imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm to you or another innocent life. If it’s do or die, you want to stop a threat as quickly, efficiently and completely as possible. Shooting a bad guy with less lethal rounds (or aiming lethal rounds at extremities) to “just wound” an attacker is a dangerously naive plan. Actually, it’s so stupid it’s not really a plan at all . . .

Gun enthusiasts have a standard slam against people carrying small rounds (e.g. .22 caliber) for self-defense: “It’ll just make them angry.” While I don’t suffer from bullet envy—much—it’s no joke, really. There’s nothing makes a homicidal attacker really homicidal like getting shot.

Even if you shoot a perp straight through the heart with a fairly large caliber honest-to-God bullet it can take as much as 30 seconds for them to “bleed out.” Your average bad guy can do a lot of damage, including murder, in that time. Why give them the chance?

Again, you’re not shooting to kill. You’re shooting to stop a deadly threat and, thus, make it possible to GTFO. Wherever possible. A beanbag round ain’t gonna get it done. Not reliably. In fact, one wonders why anyone would even own a beanbag round, never mind confuse it with “proper” shotgun ammo.

There is a potential exception: a TASER. Shoot a bad guy with a TASER and he’s going down. Unless you miss. Or the barbs don’t make it through a heavy jacket. Or you don’t have your slimline C2 in situ or immediate access to the bulkier but more badass X26C or M26c.

Of course, a TASER creates a temporary pause in the action. After the effect wears off, what then? The company readily admits that their ECD units are no substitute for a “proper” firearm.

By the same token, less-lethal rounds are no substitute for lethal rounds. If you use a gun for self-defense, don’t use it until you are within your legal right to do so. If you are, when you do, make it count. The life you save may be your own.

181 Responses to Self-Defense Tip: Don’t Shoot Less-Lethal Rounds

  1. I’ve always wanted to try one of those bean bag rounds for my shotgun, I dont think I’ve ever heard of LTL buckshot 😮 sounds sorta like an oxymorn type thing

    Hmm…will stick with ak for HD

    • You can get rubber buckshot. I certainly wouldn’t want to get hit with it, but also wouldn’t use it for anything serious…

      • I’ve rather seriously considered a rubber bullet here, while we do have some home invading thugs, more common are kids screwing around, finding their way in and doing a snatch and grab of goods.
        And I do mean kids, young, early teens.
        Although, this is massively dated, I’ll add my two cents in today.

        I’d have no problem with nutting the kid with a beanbag or rubber bullet, I’m a good enough shot at 03:30, courtesy of decades of military experience and a couple of wars. I do have a problem blowing a kid’s spleen out over a hundred bucks of crap that could be replaced for twenty bucks today, when he could earn a life lesson and provide eugenics a contribution due to sterility.

        That said, as my primary in bed arms are an AR, .22LR pistol and .25ACP pistol, as well as assorted fighting knives, including a switchblade (personal purchase “issue”, which was never reimbursed, so after retirement, it’s mine, screw them), I have hollowpoints in all, save the AR, which has MK262 mod1 rounds.

        Besides, my luck, I’d be in a civil case, where the complainant says to the court, “There I was, your honor, plying my honest trade as a murdering, raping burglar, when that *predator* shot and disabled me permanently, depriving me of my livelihood”.
        Back in the 1970’s, that actually did happen, although, worded far more innocently and it worked.
        First “shot”, an identifying target “round” of a 850 lumen flashlight burst, don’t want to confuse the pillow next to me for my wife and she’s getting a glass of water.
        Then, a warning shot. Zero reflex.
        If they don’t fall down, empty the magazine until they fall or apologize to Jesus.

        • you should buy a paintball gun. they were made for nonlethal shooting at people.

  2. Instead of loading up with non-lethal rounds, just train to miss. Intentionally missing the target with regular ammo is way cheaper than shooting non-lethal ammo at the target and makes just as much sense.

    • ok,..you shoot up your house there cowboy,….hey,..pretty funny,….now some moron will think your actually going blow a few holes in your beautiful home before you take the real shot at the bad guy,….welp,…they’d do it in hollywood for sure,….but we know that’s not what you ment,..not a hollywood shoot to scare and disorient the bad guy….oh man,..then at the end of the scene,…bad guys gone ( ’cause he was scared) ,…and,..and,..lolololol and so you look around and you’ve shot your cat,..through the wall or rather through the upstairs floor into a bedroom as your wife is screaming from the upstairs bath that you shot one of the kids, but it’s a flesh wound,…cowboy up kid,…the other round put a hole through a couple walls over the shoulder of the bad guy,…the third round gutted the bad guy and he died in a bloody heap while standing half on carpet and half on beautiful new hardwood floor,…what a mess,…..and you can’t claim it on your insurance …….i say that for me and my mossberg 20by8 pursuader,…i’ll come out and unload the whole thing at him if i can,..the flash bang is very unnerving if you keep them coming,….truly it is and the bad guy will go down

      • let me start with, What ever rounds you decide to use is on you. All these idiots that say NO to Non-lethal are just that. I’m military trained on all types of weapons to include Non-Lethal. If you have never seen what these rounds can do, then yes your the one saying, Don’t use them. I have been shot with a bean bag, for training purposes, It’s no joke and will send any bad guy screaming and running. NO one person (bad guy) will stand more then 2 rounds of bean bag. Most military trained people are good shooters, so the fact of them missing, doesn’t happen. I say Non-lethal is a good approach for home safety. Rubber bullets are the same I have been shot with rubber bullets for training purpose. and I tell you what if the bad guy decides to still be a bad guy let that ass have the whole clip of rubber bullets. In this day and age you kill some one because they broke into your house, the cops arrest you and you are found guilty of man slaughter, 1-5 years in prison. NOW WHAT? and you have a felony on your record. Say what you want but Non-Lethal is an option and a tool, if used right can change the out come of a situation and keep you out of jail.

        • I have to agree with you at least for home safety. Im planning on loading all my guns with the first round being a rubber bullet. Say what you will but a missfire can kill you just as easily as a perps gun. I wont fire for warning I will fire to kill. The first shot however is for safety purposes an added layer to not accidently shoot yourself or if someone gets a hold of your gun say a kid the first shot will most likely frighten them and allow me time to get it away from them.

        • Yea until shooting that non lethal gets you sued by the bad guy. Dont think it can happen you should look up some dumb case laws. Like where a home intruder that got locked into the home owners home with nothing to eat but dog food for a week managed to win a laws suit against the homeowner they tried to commit a crime on. As the article says if you feel the need to shoot someone you need to be in fear of your life or great bodily harm shooting non lethal is all an attorney will need to convince a jury that you shot at their client and were not in fear of your life. I also have military training in less lethal and while yea its not enjoyable when your shot with it in training you have a will to give up but that bad guy might not have a will to give up and it might motivate them to cause more harm. And jack rubber bullets are loaded with less powder and can and likely cause malfunctions in a semi auto, also they are only good to about 50 feet and can in fact still cause death so to think if a kid somehow got his hands on it that they wouldnt get hurt is an uneducated assumption.

        • Just got done with my 16 hrs of training for Illinois ccw. We are definitely guilty until proven innocent. I like the idea of a magizine of rubber bullets. I’ve seen pics of jackoffs that have been hit by them.
          Nasty. Much better to do that than spend jail time for exercising my 2nd ammendment rights.

        • It’s not a matter of if it will or can stop the threat its the fact that you knowingly fired non lethal munitions at the threat. A lawyer can easily make the jury believe you did not fear for your life and your use of force was not justified under self-defense laws. It has happened where criminals who got shot and wounded were able to sue for injuries sustained. This is because the criminals attorney was able to prove the individual intentionally shot to wound. Self defense laws for example in Wisconsin protect you if you use lethal force.

        • You are absolutely right on all counts the only problem is many civilians read these news stories and they do their own research and they don’t really understand or go through the training that we go through so less than lethal ammo it’s best left up to the professionals.

        • Exactly what I was talking about. Some one that acuotly understands the interest of stoping a threat with out killing it. Everything you mentioned is main reason why i want and would like to purchase train and even use as self defence ammo. I would use whole clip of rubber builts if that dosnt stop threat and i have gave my threat many chances to surnder and to leave then i use real ammo clip for safty of my self and loved ones.

    • There is only one responsible way to use a firearm: two to the body, one to the head – at the first possible opportunity.

      Restrictions on firearms, especially not permitting fully-auto home-defence handguns like Glocks, mini-Uzi’s etc is unconstitutional.

      • Hello sir let me introduce myself. I’m defense attorney for an undisclosed state. What you are describing is an execution in any state and any court room which will land you in jail for the rest of your life. Law states you are to use the least amount of force to stop your aggressor! Period. … you putting 2 in the body Is plenty to stop your aggressor, then one in the head makes it an execution. Well unless your in a zombie movie lol. You should really rethink your out take on protecting yourself. Some say that it is better to be judged by 6 instead of carried by 6. That is true when you shoot him 2 times in the chest but that 3rd round in the head simply turns your situation into an execution.. please for the sake of your friends and family DO NOT do this ….

        • Its amazing how many of these people think that law is cut and dried. They are in for a real surprise when they get cuffed for shooting a trespasser “twice in the body and once in the head”.

        • Hi Mr defense attorney, I am a great example of what we the people call the political agenda, I shot that junkie dirt bag rapest in the back of the head from about 5 inches away. I was NOT arrested, I was NOT changed. I even got to keep my gun. This was possible because a prior case I was involved in proved that the DA tried to force me to cry guilty, instead I put that puppies face in his own poo. A counter suit was filed and I won without any argument. The DA from my state is notorious for for oppressing and extorting. I made an example out of this treasonous group of heathens. I keep an extra mag of less then lethal rounds on me at all times because no situation is as simple as shoot to kill, and those that live that life often are ignorant of their constitutional rights and are scared into singing away their life just so the DA can add revenue and a notch on their proverbial belt. It’s sad that these same scum bags end up in political clicks and decide the fate of we the people. WE ARE THE TRUE LORDS OF THE COURT. in my state, constitutional law is being destroyed. Long story short, never look, listen, or believe anything that a DA says. They are born and raised to be scum bags.

        • Lol my state says use the force necessary to stop the threat. Mozambique is used for threats that refuse to stop and its how i train because myself and anyone in the country has access to body armor. Im not going to sit there and let my attacker close the gap im gonna stop the threat. Any force I use to stop the threat is justified under my states laws if i feel myself or someone elses life is in threat of great bodily harm or loss of life. And whos to say the perp didnt take one to the head as he charged me when my first two rounds didnt stop the threat. An execution is if i shot him he stops or runs and i still put a few more rounds in him.

        • That’s a load of horse crap. Maybe in the state you practice law, but I have taken two training courses both instructed by our sheriff. And they trained us to to do that. If you are in fear of your life you are (in my state) allowed to do what is necessary to stop the threat. If the threat is still standing after 2 to the torso, one to the head is perfectly reasonable. Shows the quality of lawyers these days.

        • John Doe,

          I’m not saying you’re wrong, but you’re not 100% right either. What this guy is referring to is a NY triple tap, where you shoot twice center mass to stop the individual, if he doesn’t drop, you assume he’s wearing body armor and you aim for the head.

          So it’s bang, bang. One one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand, …bang.

          Now if the guy is in a wife beater T-shirt and not a winter parka and it’s obvious he’s not wearing body armor you just keep shooting center mass until he drops.

          You walk over to the body on the floor and drop on in his head, a lot of money is the only thing that is going to keep you out of prison.

    • Holy Moly you must have been dropped as a child. Thank you for the worst advice possible. I will second that with, don’t even carry the gun loaded with real bullets, keep blanks in it and they will go deaf and definately run away, because the determination to rob/kill isnt that much right? Im sorry but please dont offer retarded advice like that.

      Anytime you shoot at someone you are going to intend to hit them i do not care how much “training to miss” you’ve ever done. If you train to miss, you need to train to die.

      Guns were not meant to intimidate or scare everyone, they were intended for a specific job and that job in the case of a person being robbed is to protect their lives, by totally incapacitating a person. This is why you should train to hit. While the only 2 ways to definitely incapacitate someone with a hand gun in one shot would be a head shot, or upper spine shot, it is totally not feasible to actually hit someone in the head easily, most shots are made at center of mass, torso area.

      Even a heart shot to a determined person gives them 11 or so seconds to kill you on their way out.

  3. I don’t think it’s fair to compare a .22 to a “less than lethal” round. I’ve seen .22 hollowpoints fired into ballistics gel. They’re pretty devastating. I would imagine four or five of those from a 10/22 will discourage most attackers.

    Nobody wants to get shot, and the theory that getting shot will just enrage someone seems a bit fantastic.

    • The critical phrase in your comment is “most attackers.” If I ever need DGU, G-d forbid, I am aiming for “99.999+% of all attackers.”

      [.357 revolver, .40 semi, #2 magnum shotgun]

      Good enough for government work is why we are where we are today. My life deserves six sigmas.

      • Is the standard the Miami Shootout? Those two absorbed lethal hits from 9mm Silvertips, .38 Specials, and I believe 12 gauge buckshot—and kept coming.

        Ideally one would have a 12 gauge shotgun or battle rifle in .30 caliber—but a .22 is better than a poke with a sharp stick. I would not feel outgunned with a 10/22 loaded with CCI Stingers.

        • the miami shootout and the north hollywood bank battle are not typical self defense cases. both cases had well armed badguys with a “will not be taken alive” attitude. fortunately for us this type of badguy is rare in this country.

        • The problem is the drugged-up perps. The concept of “pain” and “don’t want to be shot” may not apply.

          And I agree. A .22 is not a thrown pillow, but in extremis, if that’s all I had, I would even use the latter.

          The question is, what should my defensive-gun be as a first choice? And “most attackers” is not the standard I use.

        • The Miami and LA shooters recognized that they were in a no run-away situation. It was a duel to the death. Unless you are the target of a contract killer or SPETNAZ your attacker is going to want to beat feat as fast as possible confident that you will not pursue. Just don’t shoot him in the legs so he cannot safely retreat.

        • Parole violators and two strikers are exactly the kind of people who will run away when faced with armed resistance. If they get shot they get caught. The drug addled threat may or may not depart the scene. It all depends on what kind of drug they are on.

        • Can’t run away would include drug-addled home invaders, but more importantly, parole violators and two-time losers in three-strike states.

        • i must have gotten lucky with my sigma. it’s about the same as a k frame double action. for a self defense weapon that’s good enough for me.

      • I don’t know where all these “statics” come from that “shooting someone to injure” doesn’t work and theyll just try harder. Just recently in Detroit, that woman who fired her Hipoint carbine at the would-be robbers. She fired a couple shots and ther ran away. I think that’s what anyone would do. Someone shoots at you, your instincts are gonna scream “run”

        • Shooting to wound is a dangerous myth: If you ARE lucky enough to hit someone in the arm or leg, you’re just as likely to rupture a major artery & they’ll bleed to death before aid arrives. Add to that the difficulty of hitting a moving limb & the idea becomes utterly unrealistic.
          Why do you thing LE are trained to shoot centre of mass?
          It isn’t to kill; it’s to increase the chance of getting an incapacitating hit during a highly stressful situation that ISN’T conducive towards accuracy.

    • But as soon as you shoot at them, from their perspective, they are now fighting for their life. They can’t read minds any more than you can. Don’t assume they value their lives any less than you value yours.

      • Aim for the body first, when incapacitated, then take out the head.

        Unless you think you’re going against perps with body armor, you’ve no reason for solid point or AP; load with hollow point in the largest calibre you can handle.

        Pity that DU is illegal for pistol ammo in the US; an expanding DU core with a polonium inner would be the perfect home defence round, even a flesh would would be very unlikely to result in any lawsuits.

    • Exactly. Self preservation is top priority of almost everyone, including most druggies. They don’t want to die, they want to score some cash for another hit. I tend to avoid places where druggies hang out anyway.

  4. I approve this message… the ONLY goal of self-defense is to remove the will of the attacker to continue the attack.

    Oh, and no one wants to get poked in the eye with a stick. However, I do not recommend using a pointy stick for self defense.

  5. I’d rather have a .22 than nothing. Or even a baseball bat or machete. A .22 gives me distance. Yes, I suppose a the rare crazed, juiced up lunatic can brush off multiple rounds of .22 LR, but for the most part, nobody is willing to be shot even once if they can possibly avoid it. I can empty a full magazine from a Ruger 10/22 into someone in about 2 seconds. When you’re in a hail of bullets, your instinct is to escape the hail, not head into it.

    I doubt the use of “deadly physical force”, in any state, distinguishes less-than-lethal ammunition.

    • I think the problems arise if it comes to a trial, and an out of control prosecuting attorney convinces a jury that the mere use of less than lethal rounds proves that you were not afraid for your life. Like if you were you’d run the action a few times to clear out the less lethal rounds to get to the good stuff.

    • There is a comedian that made a very valid point about .22 caliber pistols. It’s 2 am, with the lights out, someone breaks into your home, you shoot a large caliber round, you have now caused a very bright flash in the dark and you aren’t wearing hearing protection. You are now temporarily blinded and deaf. You could catch somebody in the elbow with a BB gun and they are going to have stop for a second and regroup.

  6. A story about two morons whose lives are ruined.

    Really? I’m mad and will win this argument by shooting you with been bag ammo.

    Wait, this should really be a IGOTD award.

  7. Recommended basic reading on self-defense: Massad Ayoob’s book, “In the Gravest Extreme”. He put this in writing 30 years ago, and it is still the basic principle on legal self-defense:

    A firearm is LETHAL FORCE. You are legally justified in the use of lethal force only when you, or an innocent third party, are in the immediate danger of death or grave bodily harm. IMMEDIATE danger of DEATH or GBH.

    You are not a police officer. It is not your job to subdue and capture a criminal or a rioter, which is what the less-than-lethal ammo is designed to do. If you use the LTL rounds, the question for the courts is now “if your life/health was not in immediate danger, why did you use a firearm (which represents lethal force) in the first place?”

    And if your LTL round hits the perp in an eye, or does any other kind of permanent damage, you are going to be sued into poverty.

    If you have to shoot someone to save your life or prevent GBH, shoot them with a real gun and real bullets. Otherwise, if you are not in immediate danger, do not shoot them at all.

    • It is a more complicated situation than what the OP wrote. Saying that citizens should never use less-than-lethal (LLL) ammunition is just wrong. I have some legal background on this issue. Let me explain.

      For peace officers, training includes the concept of escalation of force. That’s why they carry pepper spray (low-level force), Tasers (low- to medium-level force), an extendable baton (medium- to high-level force), sidearm and often backup (lethal-force), belt knife and often back-up (lethal-force). In crowd/riot control in the U.S., they use large pepper spray canisters, pepper balls (shot from a rifle-like launcher), gas canisters, noise/vibration generators (new, but just wait), and shotshells filled with “bean bags” and rubbber pellets. (Also sometimes big horses – which are intimidating to most sober people.) They used to also use “water canons” and dogs but I have heard of that in very a long time.

      Under the law a citizen (not “civilian” – that’s anyone not in the military) has much the same responsibilities, and criminal and civil liabilities as a peace officer. While there is lots of case-law on the subject of “excessive force” by peace officers in confrontations with criminals (please not “offenders”) and in making arrests, people are surprised to find out that there are few state statues saying that a peace officer may defend himself personally when attacked in any way different from a citizen. That is, citizens are also held to a standard of escalation of force.

      For example, suppose an obviously mentally-unstable man confronts a woman on a crowded sidewalk in daytime and starts shouting nonsense at her and impedes her from walking away. It would be reasonable under the law for her to use a short blast of pepper spray to allow her to get away. Now suppose an apparently unarmed man confronts the same woman and demands money, saying “give me some money” and grabs her arm, it would be reasonable under the law for her to draw a kubotan, extendable baton, Maglight (or other legal impact weapon) and strike her attacker, allowing her to get away. Now suppose the same man is instead brandishing a knife, says “give me your money b___, or I’m gonna cut you up.” The woman is justified in drawing her handgun and shooting the criminal.

      The same concept can be applied to LLL rounds. Suppose you are a rancher in the rural Wyoming, and that criminals have been coming on to your property and stealing your equipment and supplies. The sheriff’s deputies (who are a half-hour’s drive away) tell you that you cannot shoot them to protect your property, and they advise you not to confront them if they come back – but they say that they can’t give you legal advice on what to do. You can’t lock up all your equipment and supplies, and they keep on coming back every few months to steal more.

      You have a shotgun in your pickup loaded with buckshot rounds for personal protection for you and your family on the ranch, but you’ve also have some LLL rubber ball rounds that you got from Midway. (Yes, lots of places are selling them now to citizens.)

      One day, you are working in one of your outbuildings and see some teenagers on your property near another outbuilding. You don’t know if they are the thieves. You yell at them that they are trespassing and say you are going to call the sheriff on your cell phone. They start walking toward you from about 200 yards away. You yell “Stop! Go back! I called the sheriff. Don’t come any closer!” But they keep on walking toward you. Do you run away and maybe let them take your more of your valuable equipment? Or do you grab the shotgun and a bag of shells from the truck, load some LLL rounds in the shotgun, and yell at them to stay where they are until the sheriff comes.

      This is a difficult situation. This is a situation where you could be justified in firing LLL rounds. You You don’t know if there is a lethal threat to you. They could be the thieves high on meth, irrationally thinking that they can intimidate you and and steal more stuff. They could be armed or just want to beat you up. OR… it could be that the teenagers are not the thieves; they were on a school day-hike in the nearby forest and got lost, and they need help. But you can’t risk waiting for them to approach you.

      Firing a “warning shot” with regular ammunition is also a possibility, but all the NRA instructors I’ve ever had say you should never fire warning shots. In many jurisdictions it is also illegal unless there is a lethal threat – called something like “negligent discharge of a weapon.” Of course you can try to get away, and perhaps let them steal more stuff before the sheriff can get there.

      What would you do in this situation? So It’s not so simple to say you should never use LLL ammo. I think there are situations where LLL rounds can be justifiably used by citizens. Of course this is not legal advice. One of my NRA instructors rightly said that prosecution or civil lawsuits are ALWAYS a possibility, no matter how well you follow what they teach you.

      In any case, regardless of our opinions, you WILL see people using this ammo. The companies making these rounds for police ARE selling them to non-police ammo suppliers, and have info on their websites describing citizen use.

      By the way, less than lethal rounds are also good for large animals coming near your home – coyotes, wild dogs, black bears, and deer or elk (eating your plants). There are exploding shot-shell noisemakers for this. With regular ammo, people have prosecuted for hunting out of season, hunting without a license, or negligent discharge if they shot an animal that was not an immediate physical threat to a person.

      • Which his why castle doctrine and stand your ground laws are so important. Large caliber hollow points, aim for the centre of mass at an effective range, then close for the head. Stand Your Ground and Castle Doctrine law should prevent any investigation, let alone indictment or prosecution.

        • I think its precious that 95% of you “badasses” on here are so quick to say how you should always shoot to kill, never use non lethal rounds etc. I can personally guarantee each and everyone of you all would be crying like little bitches on the stand when you’re facing a jury of 90-year-old women that are deciding if you will be spending the rest of your life locked up or get to go home to your family.
          I have been in that position, not for a violent crime charge but instead for eluding police on the motorcycle. I was facing a class D felony and five years in prison Which is absolutely nothing compared to what you are going to face if a jury decides you used excessive force and ended up killing someone. It was a life-changing event and was the worst thing I could have ever faced. I would rather be killed by an intruder then rotting in prison for the rest of my life.
          What you have to understand is just because some gun nut is telling you that it is perfectly legal for you to shoot people to death in a certain situation doesn’t mean shit in a court room. Every situation is open to interpretation. You cannot expect there to be no investigation or charges brought against you if you kill another person no matter how justified you consider it to be.
          Until you have faced a jury deciding how the rest of your life will be spent, keep your dumbass macho talk to yourselves. Chances are the majority of you trying to be badasses would piss your pants before you even had the balls to pull the trigger anyway.

      • You are almost correct. Escalation of force is exactly what it means and not the way you are portraying it. You escalate the force that is being shown twards you. You don’t match it. Most citizens don’t have access to 90% of the items on the escalation scale. So you escalate to the available force you have on hand. If an intruder enters your domicile and all you have is a gun with real ammo then that is what you escalate to. All this hindsight 20/20 bs you are talking about is bs. You can’t plan the perfect senario and reaction someone will have to said senario.

      • I think your response is accurate and well written. Its unfortunate that most of these idiots consider non-lethal rounds to be for wussies. Several of these idiots will be spending the rest of their lives in prison because they are convinced you are always able to kill someone in certain situations. They will find out the hard way that judges and juries can and do, interpret the same laws completely different. I speak from experience, not testosterone.

  8. we get wrapped up in the debate of hi-cap mags, which is better caliber, rifle vs. shotgun etc. regardless of what you’re using you cannot be sure you will get more than 1 shot at your attacker. you may, but that’s not a promise. don’t waste your 1 chance on a ltl round or a warning shot. in my case i’m protecting a house full of females. i will only fire if i have no other choice. when i fire it’s going to be the most lethal shot i can take.

    • “in my case i’m protecting a house full of females”

      In my twenties, I liked living in California with a home full of single females. These days, that would drive me nuts.

      • consider me driven nuts. the females are my wife, daufgter and two granddaughters. i stand a better chance of winning an argument with a crackhead than this bunch.

  9. I don’t like tasers for three reasons:
    (1) If you miss, you are screwed.
    (2) If two or more people attack you, you are screwed.
    (3) If your battery corrodes or fails, you are screwed.

    On top of that you better carry handcuffs with your taser so you can prevent the attacker from attacking with his hands after the taser wears off. Of course handcuffs don’t stop the attacker from kicking you brutally. You might as well use pepper spray — which is equally ineffective against a determined attacker or gang of attackers.

    Non-lethal rounds (like beanbag rounds) for shotguns are “compliance” rounds. Their purpose is to make a person’s job a little safer when the job is getting a person or group of people to go home. They make sense if you are facing a protestor, have additional people backing you up, and you and your backup have firearms with real ammunition ready. In other words a citizen should not use non-lethal rounds.

    • What keeps them from attacking you after being tazed is a handful of nylon cable ties stowed in the taser holster/case/pocket, whatever. Cheap, too strong for them to break free. Hogtie the bastard while he’s trying to figure out how to move and he’s not going to do dick.

  10. I really have never met anyone else who owns a judge or raging judge aside from me but I like to keep my 1st round a 255gr. coppertop .45LC hollowpoint, followed by a flat top all lead nosed 250gr. .45LC round.

    The 3rd round will be a 3″ PDX1 .410 shotshell just in case I need the spread of the four .40 copper discs & 17 BB’s. (after shooting a few dozen of these rounds I have proven to myself they will hold a 5″ pattern up to 50′ everytime.)

    The next two are the same hollowpoint/lead nose with the last round being a 454 casull hollowpoint @ 300gr so I know without a doubt the last round has been fired.

      • Sure you can – all you need is a lot of money and you can probably buy most judges in Ca.

        Oh wait, you meant the revolver, not the twit in the black robe.

      • 90% of the people who break into your home are going to be stupid junkies who want to steal jewlery. They might even be the kid down the street who used to mow your lawn and is now strung out on oxy. They don’t want to fight you and they don’t want to get caught.

        Most of them know cops don’t give a damn about burglary, but will do a lot more to catch a killer or someone who committed an AWD.

        That might not apply if you live in a hardcore gang area, or if you’re an international drug trafficker, but it’s true for most of America.

        My Uncle was one of the first 50 Green Berets. The first round in his home defense .45 is rubber, and the second is a shotshell. After that it’s hollow points. He’s killed enough men in his life, and he simply does not want to kill another unless he has to. I can promise you, you’re not tougher or more familiar with combat than he is. Two years in Korea, eight in South East Asia (not just Vietnam).

        Unless you’ve got hit men after you, you’ve got to ask if you’re defending yourself or just itching for the chance to kill someone. 90% of the time, that home intruder is going to be unarmed or armed with burglary tools. It’s not the shootout at the OK corral.

        Following the “I can’t take any chances” doctrine is how people wind up putting four into the back of a 16 year old boy who snuck in to hook up with their 16 year old daughter.

        • I absolutely agree with your statement. Statistically speaking the person breaking into my house is a drug addict looking for a smash and grab. Statistically he will not try to get in if it takes too much effort and he won’t break in if someone is home…too much effort. It does happen, but it’s very rare. I used to be against fire arms and i figured I could pretty much take anyone who broke into my home, but I recently recovered from cancer, lost sixty pounds and now I’m not so sure. So I’m considering purchasing a non lethal shot gun. I figure the sight of it will stop most break in’s and the sound of putting that shell in will stop most others. Then, if the sight of me standing there with a shotgun doesn’t do it, getting shot with a rubber shell should handle the rest of them. If it doesn’t, I can always beat them to death with the shot gun itself. I really don’t want to kill some teen aged drug addict, and I dont’ want a gun laying around that my granddaughter could get ahold of. I just don’t see any way out of it. Non lethal would have to be the way for me to go. I hope I’m right. Also, as far as the legal aspects of this situation go, I’m not that concerned about it. I’m going to do what I need to do to protect my family and myself without violating my principles and within what I consider logical reasoning. If the courts disagree with me, then I guess I’ll just do my time.

  11. As others have said, ordinary citizens aren’t cops. It’s not our job to go around subduing bad guys or dispersing a riot. For us, any weapon–be it a baseball bat, a knife, a gun, or whatever–can be used only when we’re faced with the threat of immediate death or serious injury. In a situation like that, I’m not playing games. I’m in the fight to survive.

    • BINGO!! The civilian who is defending himself is totally different than law enforcement who’s job it is to get the bad guy into court for a conviction. Thats the law enforcements job. Your interest is to survive a possible deadly situation.

      Your not in it for an arrest. Your personal interest is survival. Your not paid to get an arrest or to detain. If law enforcement is present, let them determine if less than lethal is warranted. You protect yourself the best way possible, PERIOD!

  12. A month ago, there was a good post here about the statistical stopping power of the .22 caliber. It works. Bottom line: less than lethal rounds may not be enough to stop the attacker and too powerful rounds may over-penetrate endangering others and might also make a self-defense shooter hesitate concerned with the upcoming recoil.

  13. Does anyone know of any real-world cases where people used LTL rounds and ended up being subsequently overrun by their attacker?

    • didn’t i see somewhere that the border patrol agent that was murdered by one of holders f&f guns had bean bag rounds in his shotgun when he was killed? or was that a completely unrelated case.

    • ,…hmmmm,….soooo,…have you yet volunteered to advance your ground while being hit by beanbag rounds? can you imagine taking 8 or those rounds while your “comin’ ta’ git me”,….bet you quit first.

      • Are you are presuming the person being hit by beanbag rounds isn’t firing something rather more lethal back?
        Bet you’d die first, just like the poor BP guy.

        • That’s why I have two guns one with less lethal rounds the other with lethal rounds because the perpetrator may be a drunk in the family member or an addicted family member whom you do not want to kill that is when you use less lethal otherwise Center Mass 45 hollow point they’ll stop

    • Our friend bought them shot at three home intruders who then shot him with various calibers. He later died alone in his bathroom full of bullets and it took police 40 minutes to respond as it was a friday with several domestic violence calls. HE did get to his 40 caliber handgun load it and killed one intruder in his home the second died at the emergency room and the third was arrested in the emergency room like 70 miles away. Cameras at the emergency room & our friends place both caught the criminals, their car plate etc. The criminal has a lawyer for free who is claiming self defense and is out on bond ($50,000) and has harrassed the victems wife along with his family and friends at each court appointment and he has several plea deals in effect already. The judge on’t even stop the criminals family from yelling threats and profanities in the court…

  14. If & that’s a very faint if, I was faced with a threat that to me necessitated using a firearm, then I’d want the most effective ammunition available & preferably in 9mm & upwards.
    Heck, if the threat is potentially lethal I want to stop it there & then & with little or no chance of it recurring.
    To that end Tasers, bean bags & rubber bucks are utterly inappropriate because I have no desire to have the bugger(s) get up & have another go.

    • Whatever the Secret Service uses to protect the President…THAT is what I want!
      I use .40 S&W or BIGGER in my handguns, and 3 1/2″ Magnum 00Buck 12gg in my shotgun.
      And I use expanding rounds — like hollow-point or ‘hybrid’ — that I hope will have PLENTY of “knockdown” and stopping force without over-penetrating and hitting anyone else.
      I have plenty of ‘compassion’ for others, and NEVER “want” to kill anyone else. But that compassion is for the INNOCENT people who are victimized by the criminal and evil people of this World!
      When I was once forced to defend my life from lethal threat, I did NOT aim for legs and arms, nor warning shots…but neither did I chase after the 3rd assailant when he turned and ran away…wounded.
      In my case, I was UNARMED because of my employer’s policies of no firearms…even though I was responsible for handling pretty large amounts of cash! But, fortunately, after that instant flood of instinctive ‘panic’ and adrenaline flow had passed, I was able to think clearly enough to create a distraction that gave me just the split second I needed to react, and gain primary control of “the talker’s” handgun…and used it against him! And then against the remaining 2 armed assailants! (1 other also had a firearm, and one had a large knife.) Round 2 and 3 hit the other armed criminal, #4 hit the knife guy, and #5 came back to the ‘talker’… I grabbed the 2nd handgun, and threw them both into nearby flowers and shrubs,(I did not know if they were dead or ‘immobile’ or not.) and took off in the opposite direction as the 3rd attacker…
      It was all on a Bank Security camera…but my face was not ever in view, and my fingerprints were not ‘readable’ on either weapon. I saw myself on TV News for a couple of days, but never again went back to that bank. [I moved my account to a different bank that was next door to a Police precinct.] And, from that point forward, I DID conceal carry, even though my Company forbid it. I would rather lose my job than lose my LIFE.

  15. I’ll play the devil’s advocate. One reason I can offer in support of buckshot is that one does not have to worry about overpenetration much.

    You can never be sure the first round will hit the bad guy while some people can argue that even a missed shotgun shot can deter an attacker. So one buckshot round has reasonably high chance of stopping an attack (or at least giving you time for a second shot) *and* lower probability of seriously hurting innocents.

    After all, one of the things many people do not want to happen is the shots they have fired paying a visit to their neighbors. Try telling someone “Uh, I’m sorry for killing your little girl, it was dark outside and I missed that drug junkie and I had no idea she was behind that bush.”

    • I like the idea (ive never been in a situation to know first hand) of LTL ammo as it reduces the risk of fatal collateral damage. In close quarters situations a stray bean bag won’t drive itself, and deadly high velocity debris, through walls and floors. Rubber bullet could, but with far less risk than non-exotic ammo.

      It seems to me that, unless my attacker is in an open space, still, and I’m clearheaded and calm, shooting conventional ammo inside my home is as dangerouse for my family as the attacker. Just my $0.02. I’m not very experienced with guns or violence though, and so don’t claim to be more knowledgable than anyone else here.

  16. Its good to see that some people still have some common sense.
    If you don’t have to kill someone why do it. I carry a full magazine
    of less lethal ammo in my 45 . Since there are a hundreds of different
    scenarios that can arise. Having an alternative choice is wise
    when your talking about taking someones life.
    Sometimes Many gun owners seem to be just waiting for the opportunity to
    legally kill someone. There egos have taken there common sense away.

    • Well Bruce, I hope you never need to use your gun, otherwise you might just end up dead & your gun being used (with real ammunition) against others.
      There is no reason to use a firearm unless lethal force is required.

      If your derogatory assertion about “many gun owners” was true, then there would be far more deaths being reported than there are. The huge majority gun owners have no wish to draw their gun in anger, never mind look for an excuse to do so, unlike the criminals they wish to protect themselves from.

      Why aren’t you making noises about THOSE “gun owners” – you know; the robbers, home invaders, rapists & drug dealers?

      • Are you serious? I’ve seen more gun owners than i want to have that ”I wish a moth- f-ck-” would attitude. Just waiting to have the opportunity to “prove their manhood” and take somebody out. It’s sickening. I use my Daniel Defense MK18 as my home defense but i just ordered some LTL ammo (00 buck rubbers) for my shotgun. If something were to ever occur in my house the last thing i want to do is take someones life, so my first round will be that rubber. Sure everyone would hope that a perp would stop and turn around to run after getting sprayed with rubber but I am quite confident my shotgun can cycle another shell faster than he would be able to come back with lethal force, because my second shot will be a triple decker with steel. My point is, not everyone with proper training has to be extremely close minded, and take up everyone else’s point of view on things. People are going to do things you don’t like or approve of, so stop trying to impose your will?

        • So you’re confident you can pull the trigger twice before any intruder can pull theirs once?
          I’m glad I don’t have to rely on you for my safety.
          Enunciating what make of firearm you intend to use is utterly irrelevant & smacks of bluster.

    • I agree! I want to protect my wife and visiting grandchildren, as well as myself. I also don’t want to kill anyone. I don’t believe it is necessary to kill 99% of the time.
      I have a loud blank in one gun. If I hear sounds outside my house, I shoot that off out a window. Then I get my 12 gauge with LTL rubber balls and pepper spray mixed and wait. If he tries to enter my home, it will be burning blind.

      • Ah yes; the Joe Biden method.
        Not only stupid but also illegal in many states.
        Go ahead & use your pepper spray & rubber balls on some meth head determined to stick a knife in your guts &/or rape/kill your wife & kids.
        If someone doesn’t value their family’s lives enough to use an effective means of defence, then they’re not really up to much.

        Rubber balls…….

        • At my home there is no reason for LTL, you’re coming in MY home! If you’re outside I’ll warn you to leave but never let on I’m armed. You come in or I find you inside, you better explain faster than I draw.
          But a man of 5’6 140#s confronted by an unsavory character 6’+ 260+# and unarmed, should not have to choose between only a near sure beating and possibley killing the unarmed asshole. There should be the third option subduing said bad guy,drunk jerk etc… Without being punished by the law for using non leathal force such as, the smaller guy has .40 pepper rounds in his g23 with a second mag loaded with real ammo or a second subcompact option loaded with real ammo. Who, besides the random, nearly mythical PCP junky, isn’t going down after 13rouds of pepper gas hitting them at nearly 700+ feet per second? And if not, it WILL slow them enough to put in the other mag or draw second weapon. If you’re working with a revolver I say all real ammo. Not enough rounds to risk being ineffective.
          No matter what wait for the cops. If you were the little guy and also unarmed but managed to knock the guy out, would you just leave the scene? I wouldn’t. And you won’t go to jail for it, most likely. So why should you, in Florida for example, go to jail for using a real gun and not using leathal force with it although you legally could have. It should NOT be the case to HAVE to use leathal force in order to keep from being beaten badly, because you’ll go to jail for not killing someone. You should be applauded for being willing to kill but finding a way around it when ordinarily there may not be. If kimbo slice is coming at me, I know I can’t take him and one punch from him could kill me, I’d rather not kill him, even with an accidentally leathal shot, if there’s a chance I can get away or or subdue him without lead.

        • “If kimbo slice is coming at me, I know I can’t take him and one punch from him could kill me, I’d rather not kill him, even with an accidentally leathal shot, if there’s a chance I can get away or or subdue him without lead.”

          If I’m in a situation where I could get killed, then there is no way I want to take a chance on stopping the aggressor.
          It doesn’t matter whether the aggressor is drunk or high or stone cold sober – I’m not taking a punch that could all too easily prove fatal.
          I’ll leave “less likely to be lethal” stuff to LE, as they usually have some kind of backup for if things go Pete Tong.

  17. Well Mike, I hope I don’t need to either. But I do not worry about ending up dead: If the situation arises where full force is needed, the clip with 45 hollow points, will be used as needed. But if the situation does not require lethal force, the clip with non lethal ammo will be use.
    Wether its a different clip, every other shell, the first shell, the second or whatever someone is comfortable with. It would be the responsible thing to do. What a jury, judge or others think or say is irrelevant to me
    What I would fear, is standing before the God of the Universe someday and being asked the question: Why did you kill. when it was not necessary?

    • They aren’t clips; they’re magazines.
      If the situation doesn’t require lethal force, then firearms play no part in it.

      I’d like to know why you think someone who DID wish you harm would be so gracious as to give you the time to change your magazine full of rubbe ball to one loaded with proper rounds.
      It’s not responsible; it’s asking to die & possibly be the cause of other’s deaths by supplying a criminal with your firearm.

      • Clip or Magazine…?
        What would you do if you stepped out your back door armed with full loaded whatever, and there is a 12 your old boy standing there pointing a gun at you?
        The rest of your family is about step outside, and you know he is going to pull
        the trigger. What would you do?

        • Use of the correct term encourages other to do so & avoids appearing to lack knowledge of the subject.
          How do I know he’s going to pull the trigger?
          How do I know he’s 12?
          How about I don’t HAVE a family?
          How long did it take to dream up such an unlikely scenario?

          Think of the far more likely one:

          You open the door to go out & there are two or three young males unknown to you waiting outside & they rush towards you.
          Home invasion or rape of your wife & daughter?
          What use your rubber balls then in protecting your family?

        • I think we all know what people who believe the lie. “Don’t Shoot Less-Lethal Rounds” would do.., and they may very well be justified. But to put a twist on very unlikely scenario” lets say the gun turned out to be a very realistic looking paint ball gun.
          Good Luck in court, pray the jury has mercy on you: after all your just a gun owner protecting yourself…., do the courts allow for a plea of Innocent by reasons of ignorance..?
          People who believe the lie. Don’t Shoot Less-Lethal Rounds should never be issued a gun permit.
          Have A Good Day All..!

        • I see: Once your ridiculous stance is exposed, you give up trying to justify it.

          Not that I even believe you have any kind of firearm in the first place

        • to displace all of the hoopla going on about bruce trying to talk his way into that if you shoot someone with lethal ammo and they have no gun then “good luck in court”. about 4 years ago i was in my newly purchased home with my wife and 2 sons who were 3 and 4 years old at the time. i had recently got out of the military. anyways 2 males kicked in the door to my home not thinking anyone was home, and as i awoke from this noise i immediately grabbed my AR-15 5.56 NATO 25 round magazine and quietly got my wife and sons into the closest which has custom cement walls (like a safe room) and while crouched yelled leave now or you will be shot to which i heard one male reply “pssht doubt it”. so i calmly peeked around the door threshold and looked into my gen 2 night vision scope at the two males standing in my living room starting to walk towards where my voice had come from to which told me they weren’t leaving, with no visible weapons i opened fire 1 head shot and 1 center mass on each of them. calmly called the police and paramedics and told them the situation as it occurred. the assailants didn’t have ANY weapons but because they were on private property and i told them to leave and they didn’t comply in this great state of Louisiana i am obliged to shoot. my point is it never held in court i was acquitted of all charges.because i had reasonable suspicion of harm to my family.

        • Bruce Perhaps new to you but:

          Don’t point a gun at someone/something you don’t intend to shoot.
          Don’t shoot unless you intend to kill.

  18. I only use 9mm FMJ. why? Because that’s the only ammo my gun likes. I don’t want to shoot people in my home because then your stuck thier ghosts. And you can’t shoot a ghost (trust me i tried, ended up killing my bird dog)

  19. I would rather my Nieces have to Explain to the Sheriff why some Asswipe has a Fist sized hole in his chest from My Glock 30, Than to have to ID their body at the morgue. LTL is a Joke. The PD here decided to try them out. At 30 ft it wouldn’t stop a Cheerleader with an Inkpen.

  20. Scenario: I walk out in my driveway and find someone stealing gas, tires, etc. it isn’t legal to use lethal force if you aren’t being attacked and they haven’t entered the domicile. Is it legal to attempt to incapacitate and detain the individual using nonlethal “rubber” rounds? if anyone knows the laws reguarding this (particularly in mt) please reply

    • No it most likely will not be legal. The biggest problem with less lethal rounds is they can still be lethal especially at close ranges where most defensive shooting takes place. This means most courts will look at the discharge of any firearm with any ammo, lethal or less lethal, as lethal force. The problem with going outside is a lot of people on a jury will see you leaving your house as you leaving a secure location to engage a threat, or ‘you went looking for trouble.’ So to sum up: Don’t leave the house to engage a threat only for a good excuse. I.e. “I went to make sure the cars were locked etc.” 2: discharging a firearm is deadly force so try to make sure your life is in danger before you shoot.

  21. Fine to suggest people use real bullets, but you sound like a child when you describe home intruders like they’re villains in superhero movies…. crazed homicidal maniacs who kill people after being shot straight through the heart. Ridiculous. This kind of nonsense is what gives credence to the term “gun nut.”

  22. I think it’s ridiculous to say you have to kill someone else to prove you were in sufficient fear of your life to defend it. The bottom line is you want them to stop their attack that’s the goal. If your worried about them suing you guess what your likely to have a civil suit anyway if you kill them.

  23. Have you even been shot by a 9’mm. its pretty damn incapacitating. if my enemy is running after me with a knife there’s no need to kill him even though I have the right to. I would prefer to prosecute him for attempted murder then kill them. I have plastic bullet’s for my FN Five Seven. and just 2 shot’s drooped a local store robber to his knee’s. (Broke 2 of his rib’s.) that was a nice 19.5K reward i collected on. don’t tell me they aren’t effective. cause you are filling me with shit if you say they wont stop an attacker. BTW i live in vermont with no castle laws and no stand your ground’s law. but anyone can conceal carry. Had I actually killed him i could have been in some seriously trouble.

    • Just think; if those tiny plastic bullets had enough energy to break his ribs, they also had enough energy to penetrate. It was lucky they both hit his ribs.
      Where do you get these magic bullets from anyhow?

      • Cheaperthandirt.com. that’s also where I get my tracer/incendiary round’s. But those did exactly what a rubber bullet would have done. rubber paintballs going at 400 fps’s can penetrate. so you can guess a 9mm going at 1400 fps would penetrate. never the less a 5.7×28 plastic bullet fired at 2500 fps form a Fn Five Seven. my plastic bullet’s were actually less lethal then they would have been if they were rubber. I find this article ridiculous. Ever been shot with a rubber bullet form a paintball gun? its enough to put you on your knees. it certainty dropped the robber. probably could have gotten away with shooting him once.

        The robber was threatening a third part with a weapon, so if i had killed him, it would have made no difference legally. but if I had live ammo in my gun I may have been reluctant to fire.

        • No ammunition with plastic projectiles on CTD’s website or for that matter anywhere else I’ve looked. I asked a friend who owns a Five SeveN & he’s never heard of the stuff either.

          Who the Hell wants to face a robber when armed with ineffective ammunition in any case?
          Sounds like taking an unnecessary risk to me & being reluctant to use lethal force when needed makes carrying a firearm pretty pointless too.

        • They aren’t usualy available to civilian’s. CTD has sold them in the past, usualy you need to ponder the deep web for them, they are legal for civilian shooter’s to use, they just aren’t made available. since the robber only had a knife and was about 30 feet away, I didn’t see much risk. remember i live in Vermont we don’t have a lot of hard core criminal’s here. so lethal force is not always necessary. we have less than 3 a year die by firearm’s. and less then one via homicide, most people killed by a firearm involves a hunting accident or suicide via police. please note that this figure does not count suicide by firearm. I would rather appear on the local new’s as a hero then a killer. quite honestly its your own damn choice what you use. its your a person’s and you can choose what you want to do with it.

  24. Excuse me guys, but I think we’re putting the cart before the horse here. Let’s back up and analyze some other things before we start discussing actually shooting someone. This may be common sense for most, but I think it’s good to discuss it and debate it for the less-experienced and non-CCW holders.

    The way I see it, the absolute best outcome to a dangerous self-defense scenario is if you can get away. You don’t need a gun for this. Run away, drive away etc. No scum that is giving you a hard time deserves even 5 minutes of your time, let alone months or years in civil or criminal court if you hurt/kill him. This isn’t a movie where you need to be a hero…

    When you can’t get away from a BG though, the absolute best outcome in that scenario would be to change his mind to leave you alone or to give you the opportunity to leave. This can be done with charm, humor and general quick-wittiness (I’ve used this myself when I got into a few hot situations), and of course the other alternative is to scare him away or to scare him enough to let you get away. This is best done by a formidable weapon, such as a handgun.

    If getting away isn’t an option, and you can’t talk your way out of a situation (for instance if an attack happens too quick), you still have one more trick up your sleeve that will drastically change the whole game, which is the handgun. This is the 2nd to last best option of course, to reveal your last card, but still you haven’t actually shot anyone yet and you may very likely end up both walking away from this with no legal/moral repercussions.

    In my personal opinion, 90% of BG situations that escalate to a “pull my gun out” level can also be diffused at this level. In other words, just because you have a gun doesn’t mean you have to use it. And by all means avoid using it. It’s much easier/cheaper to deal with an assault with a deadly weapon trial, than for a legal killing let alone manslaughter/murder. Also, in a situation where you have to pull your gun out, it probably won’t really be in a nice public place and you most likely can run/walk away from the encounter without anyone else witnessing and having to deal with the law.

    NOW, if you do feel you need to use your weapon, I agree with the author and you better have the most devastating round you can have. And don’t just shoot once. Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice.

    • You’re forgetting the big plus that comes from a lethal DGU: There is no chance whatsoever of your assailant ever again destroying someone else’s life by their actions.

      • That store robber was threatening a third party giving me the right to use lethal force. the only reason i shot him is cause i knew i could drop him without being dubbed a murder in my small town. (he had his hands in a pocket claiming he had a real gun) and I knew if i walked away I wouldn’t be able to collect on nearly 20 grand. that guy deserves maybe 10 year’s at most. he didn’t deserve to die. remember I live in a tiny state. people are rarely shot and killed in my area. It was my own damn choice to use the weapon and ammo that I did, and i’m my case it paid off. had I followed this page’s advice I would not be a very popular person in my town. but I would not be in prison.

    • The fact that someone I know was sued for shooting someone the broke into his home he only hit him in the arm I live in the same town served 20 year’s in the army I was home with my family between deployments when someone tried to rob my house they were getting to close to my kids room I fired three round burst killing the intruder and I was never second guessed by my local law enforcement I don’t care what people say non lethal rounds are not an option for me if someone is a threat to my family my response is to use deadly force

  25. There is no lance M. only a Charles M

    My reply was misdirected, it was supposed to be in response to both your’s and Charles M’s post’s. charles post seemed to be directed at me, and your response to his comment was also part of my reply.

    • Hi Lance, my comment was not directed at you, just in general to the whole discussion. I wouldn’t have engaged the robber in your particular scenario with lethal ammo, but if I was in your scenario with LLA ammo I would have probably done the same.

      I’d like to think though that I would have been able to get the drop on him (you said his hands were in pocket) and hope that I can get him on the floor with his hands above his head, without having to shoot anything at him.

      Anyway, I wrote my comment earlier mostly because it irritates me that some people think once you pull your carry on someone, you either have to shoot or go to jail regardless. There’s many more unreported cases of BGs running away from CCW holders than there are reported killings (justified) or trials for assault with deadly weapon (unjustified).

  26. A situation has cropped up in my area (fairly small suburb town in Southern CA). Lately there are groups of 8-10 thugs robbing people at gunpoint on the local bike path. It’s a beautiful stretch of path that is separate from the highway making it safe to ride away from cars but not safe from gang bangers from the city. I was considering aTaser X2 for hiking/biking. Would be great for 1 or 2 attackers, or a rabid dog or crazed mountain lion. But what do I do with the other 6 attackers in this case?? Are we to carry concealed handguns to defend ourselves these days even though it’s not legal? I know a lot of people do this but if I blow away 8 gang bangers on the bike path in my upper middle class hood, my guess is I would probably do jail time? Bottom line is I don’t want a gang of thieves to point guns at me while I’m trying to get some exercise at night which is the only time I have to ride. I suppose I could take the Charles M. approach and drop my $2000 bike and run but I don’t want to do that either. Any suggestions?

    • My recommendation is to leave your gun restrictive state. you aren’t going to take out 6 banger’s with a single 10 round magazine anyways.. can you open carry in CA, if so that’s your better bet. Sometimes I forget about how privileged i am to live in Vermont and be free of the gun control police.

  27. Adding to my comment. I believe an intruder, who is still outside, is gonna run like crazy, the second a gun goes off.
    Lots of places to rob, why continue with one where you just heard a gun go off?
    I’m not in the middle of big city drug operators, just in a suburb of a small city- 15,000 population. I need to stop the person, not kill him. Be my luck it will be some old guy with Altzimers.

    • Your belief is based on how a rational person acts.
      Criminals aren’t known for making rational judgements, up to & including confronting an obviously armed & prepared person.

  28. It seems that we are discussing two different situations. Here on Long Island there are no CC permits.So that part of the discussion is not relevant to me.
    There have been numerous home invasions here lately. The majority are to obtain drug money. The perps don’t even care if you are home. They actually hope you are home, ring the doorbell and assault you as you open the door. Not much you can do there unless you carry a gun every time the doorbell rings.
    I own a revolver and a shotgun and would prefer the shotgun if surprised during the night. I also have an alarm set so I will have some time to be ready. If someone is still coming in after the alarm goes off I don’t want to have rubber bullets because this person is serious.

  29. I’ve been in law enforcement long enough to know that LTL rounds are valid in most situations. Reason i say that is because Cops are nothing but glorified bar bouncers. It’s always drugs, except for the 1% of the time it involves some underage kids or someone with serious intent (bank robbers). My take is that i’ve got 15 rounds or rubber bullets to drop into someone with a knife or crowbar if they refuse to drop it. I’ve then got the skill and training to put in another clip with defensive ammo if it escalates. Most pigs are trigger happy Rambo’s who have no common street sense. We’ve had 2 senseless killings here in Billings already due to one such pig, but a few hero moves from other officers as well. It all boils down to training street sense. Just realize that most people breaking into your house will be young kids and there’s no need to kill them and wreck a lot of lives when there’s a better alternative. Is your house worth more than someone’s life? Granted, there is that 1% serious threat of a serial killer like they show in the movies, but i’ll take my chances with rubber bullets to an axe murders face and genitals because i can always prop him up kill him later. To just kill first and ask questions later is to live in fear. God expects us to defend our families but to do so by over reacting is stupid and childish. Why not just sleep in body armor, have the whole house alarmed with motion sensors, and guard dogs with pulse dectors, inside your barb wire fence? Stun guns are great for drunks, but not so much for self defense. Bear spray works will only at close range. Maybe someday someone will invent a gun that has a stun gun attached, but everyone should work with a Cop for a week to see that in the end, Cops do nothing but work for all the bars and casinos that makes millions while the rest of us just clean up the mess. Great business for lawyers, hospitals, and law enforcement, but it’s really not necessary to kill everyone who poses a threat because you can. Rubber bullets at home, and light armor piercing rounds for concealed carry while driving or at stores in sheep dog mode, where there actually might be a shootout. Even then i’d propably hit him in the arm if i had the chance and determined he was just drugged up. Again, training is the key but i still believe that the shooter has a responsibility to not be a indiscriminate murderer…after all, that’s what Goverments are for!

    • I think you’ve been watching too many movies.

      “Even then i’d propably hit him in the arm if i had the chance and determined he was just drugged up.”

      You would eh?

      Must be some kind of steel nerved Jerry Miculek with the ability to read minds thrown in.

    • Sam,
      Read some Newspapers from where I live. These are not kids committing very violent home invasions. Here on Long Island prescription drugs have become a major problem. Doctors being part of the problem. Perhaps you heard of the Pharmacy murders that occurred not too far from my house? It was about drugs and he killed four people indiscriminately.
      My house was broken into (we were not home) by repeat offenders. They caught three of them. One had a rap sheet with 18 priors. How do I know?
      A friend was a Correction officer and he DEALT with them, if you know what I mean.
      The scum from around here that commit these violent crimes don’t belong on this earth as far as I’m concerned.
      As I said if someone still enters my house at night after the alarm goes off I have to assume the worst and shooting someone with rubber bullets while he may have a stolen 45 makes no sense.

      • BTW I failed to mention that the Pharmacy killer did this in broad daylight with a legally registered firearm. His wife was in the getaway car in the parking lot. They only lived a few blocks away. He is ex Army and both were drugged up making them totally irrational. He killed the Pharmacist and three customers. If someone had a firearm (not allowed here) maybe he could have been stopped.

    • less lethal ammunition is used to gain compliance from a person when lethal force is not required but is justified, that is why you should always have backup that has lethal ammunition. If the officer is alone they should never use less lethal ammo, It is called less lethal not non lethal for a reason it is still considered deadly force.

      BTW Taser and Pepper spray are considered non lethal, Batons are in a gray area

      Sam as a fellow law enforcement professional i suggest that you get out of the business as soon as possible because if that is your view of what you do then you shouldn’t be allowed to carry the badge

  30. i hate to say it but if im faced with a “life or death” situation the attacker will be leaving with only part of his neurological section “head” considering i have a mosberg 500 tactical with a rifled barrel and the only thing i am running through that is 1oz 3″ magnum slugs… so in my case i honestly feel bad for the poor bastard for even trying because i can tell you now he ain’t winning any time soon and my instictive point of aim is right between the eyes so i guess if it be a home invasion i best be breaking out the swiffer to clean brain matter from my walls and ceiling and i dont think he will be coming after me much more than falling flat on the ground after one of those. and since i live in a small highly spaced out country town and the way my home is set up i do not believe i have to worry about over penetration… just whether or not i have to replace some brick on my home

  31. I see a lot of ‘lethal ammo only’ comments that don’t seem to consider ALL of the consequences, which is part of responsible gun ownership and using a gun.

    Sure, its easy to say, ‘He came in our house and I felt threatened so I shot him’ and think that’s the end of it. Hell no, WHATEVER ammo you use, you’re in a world of legal nightmare(s) once you pull that trigger, to think anything else is just ignorant and irresponsible no only to the law, but also to your family if you have one. No matter what, you’re going to spend a lot of time and money defending your actions, either in a legal court, and/or in a civil suit.

    If someone comes into your home, unarmed with just the intent to steal something, and you shoot them, you’re f*cked. Sure, you didn’t know their intentions, but the problem is their family will make up their intentions (they’ll say ‘He had no violent criminal past, just some minor stuff’….look at Mike Brown/Ferguson). And if that really is the case, simply turning on the lights and pointing a gun at someone will scare off most punk ass burglars who are just cowards anyway. This probably consists of what….95% of all home invasions/break-ins? No lethal force necessary, just the show of force. ‘Peace, through superior fire power.’

    Now, lets say someone breaks into your home with intent to just steal, but they’re actually brandishing a weapon of some sort. Anything other than a gun (knife, bat, crowbar, etc) and your firearm automatically trumps them, and if you just open fire, you’re f*cked, because the court/family will just say that they never intended to use it and if they have knife, but you have a gun, how can you be ‘afraid for your life’ if they’re 10 feet away?. [now, I don’t AGREE with this, but its not what you agree/believe in/say, its what is said in COURT, and this is what you have to contemplate before shooting someone] If you have a gun and they have a knife, you practically have to let them stab you first before you can ‘cleanly’ shoot-to-kill in self defense, in the eyes of the court.

    This is where I personally believe LTL ammo comes into play. You can shoot first and explain later on an intruder with a knife….this is a common sense story in court. The story would go like this…”I walked in on him steaing my TV, he brandished a knife and threatened me, I shot 1-2 LTL rounds because I feared for my life, but he still kept coming, so my next shot was because I knew he would kill me if he got closer” And ballistics would prove everything you said, putting together a very good ‘story’ for the jury to get behind. If you shot him at point blank range (after shooting 1-2 times across the living room/whatever) that PROVES that he charged you with intent to do lethal bodily harm.

    That makes up 4%. The last 1% is a legit home invasion where the intruder really intends to do you harm, not just take your stuff, but is there to do violence and has a screw loose, in which case all bets are off and ANY weapon is better than nothing, but you’re in trouble if someone targets you like that. But lets also be realistic, because people on here are planning some kind of hollywood-esque shootout with “my firs 3 rounds are X, and my next 3 rounds are Y, and then I’m going to jump over my couch where I have my tactical shotgun mounted underneath with 7 rounds of exploding blah blah blah” Come on….how many foiled home robberies have actually happened like that? Even in liquor store robberies where a CCW citizen stopped it, MAYBE they get 1-2 rounds off before the bad guys take off or hit the floor. Rarely is there any kind of shoot out in a situation like that.

    The most important thing is to understand your state’s ‘stand your ground’ laws, and what the state courts really consider ‘fear for my life’ scenarios. I know in CA, if someone pulls a knife, and you pull a gun and shoot them, you’re f*cked. (again, I don’t agree, but as a responsible gun owner, I’ve researched this and other scenarios and its not as cut and dry as we’d like to think, at least in CA). Other states, maybe not, but its your responsibility to know. Hell, some states would consider these forums evidence, and if you’re online spouting ‘If anyone breaks into my house I”ll really enjoy putting one in his chest with my new tactical XYZ with armor piercing bullets’…well, that WILL be used against you and you’ll look like you were looking for an excuse and enjoyed shooting someone. There’s theoretical, there’s real life, and then there’s COURT.

    • You quite plainly have NO IDEA what you’re talking about: If someone is ten feet away & armed with a knife, then they’re close enough to cut you before you can react unless you have your finger on the trigger & your sights on target. Your two LTL rounds aren’t going to stop them & you aren’t going to have time for a lethal shot. If you think shooting them is wrong, then get rid of your guns because you’ll make a gift of them to whoever confronts you.
      Have you SEEN what one cut with a knife can do?

      http://www.johnrstanczak.com/content/subject-he-only-had-knife

      Well guess what: I’m not letting it happen to me by playing damn’ silly games with ineffective ammunition.

      “I know in CA, if someone pulls a knife, and you pull a gun and shoot them, you’re f*cked.”

      No you don’t & no you’re not; a knife is a lethal weapon, as is a bat, hammer, steel rod…..

      • You are an idiot giving unsubstantiated claims. If you are so slow with your trigger pull and weapon control that you can’t get off a magazine in less the time it takes for someone to come at you with a knife from 10 feet, then you need to start hitting the range. Today. Ever been shot by a rubber bullet? Ever taken compressed powder to the face? Then on what basis can you rationally conclude that it would not incapacitate? I’ve witnessed wanring shots and non-lethals stop eminent threats in war, against junkies hopped up on opium. What’s your experience? The internet? You’re a couch potato with a ccw. Put your gun away before you hurt someone.

        • Firstly you failed to read what I wrote.
          Secondly I’m not trusting MY life to LTL against a possibly hopped up home invader.
          Thirdly, I’d like to see you “empty a magazine” in less than a second, which is the time it takes for someone to lunge ten feet.
          Your ignorance as to the effects, handling & using of firearms is plain to see & your pronouncements as to the effectiveness of LTL ammunition pure fantasy.

      • 1) the fact that you can’t have a basic discussion w/o insulting someone simply negates anything you say, but I’ll continue anyways for the benefit of the discussion and anyone ELSE reading. I’ve already told you I don’t actually disagree with you (you clearly didn’t read MY post entirely). All I said was, there’s serious consequences to shooting first and asking questions later.

        2) You don’t know me and I don’t know you, so please don’t presume to know how quick I am, or am not with the weapons I own. You have no idea of my training (or lack of), speed, accuracy, and tactics, so why even have that discussion? Plus, for anyone with SOME training, putting 1-2 LTL rounds (or ANY rounds, for that matter) on target at 10 feet in 1 second isn’t difficult, Jason’s comment was dead on for you.

        2) w/o getting into a huge legal analysis, this is a pretty good summation from an article:
        http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/self-defense-laws-explicit-in-california/Content?oid=2530039

        I’ve **stared** where I want to make my point

        The answer is there is no statutory Stand Your Ground law in California. There are sections of the penal code, case law and a criminal jury instructions that outline elements of a self-defense defense. First, if you are in your home and someone breaks in, Penal Code Section 198.5 states:
        “Any person using **force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury**
        within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.”
        [-My point here is that person has to show force….so just breaking into your home isn’t enough. Walking in and shooting someone doens’t give them the opportunity ‘show force’, even if they have a knife, if they drop it right away, or just stand in the corner, trying to figure out what to do, they haven’t shown force (yet) and if you can’t prove they lunged at you, you’re in trouble. ]

        If you are not in your home, the law is less clear and, in essence, the law looks to see if you acted reasonably in your assessment of the situation. Deadly force can only be used in situations where: 1) the defendant reasonably believed that he, or someone else, was in imminent danger of being killed or suffering great bodily injury; 2) the defendant reasonably believed that the immediate use of deadly force was necessary to defend against that danger; and 3) the defendant used no more force than was reasonably necessary to defend against that danger. Belief in future harm is not sufficient, no matter how great or how likely the harm is believed to be. **If the defendant used more force than was reasonable, the killing was not justified.**
        [-Last sentance is a HUGE ‘What if’ in court, right or wrong the parents/family of whoever you killed, in a civil suit, will make your life a living hell saying that ‘he was a good boy and didn’t deserve to die’]

        • I suggest you tell Jason to give up on the abuse, as it was he not I who initiated the ad hominems.

          So you’re happy to use up the less than a second you have to fire LTL rounds as someone lunges at you with a knife.
          Fine by me but I’ll take a jury over a knife in the guts.

          If coming at you with a knife isn’t considered to be **force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury** in California, then I suggest California isn’t the place for any rational person to live.
          DO please try harder.

        • Former Marine and also Army. Just a comment. Had a JAG (Judge Advocate General) lawyer once tell me a thing I’ve always kept in mind. “There is the Real World and the Legal World; seldom the ‘twain meet!”
          The chat about “If this, then that.” is entertaining yet let’s face it folks, IF you feel the NEED to pull and shoot, then it’s Your NEED, Your Decision, and I and you pray you are correct and a Life is saved as a Life is ended. The conversation about what happens in that split moment when there is no time to discuss it… well, that’s entertainment and a mute point.
          I will say this, though. The responsibility is solely yours if you go armed, so training, training, and training goes with it. Do not rely on past training, no training, occasional 3 times a yr moments at the Range. Take the Responsibility ‘Gravely’. Muscle Memory will then pull and shoot. Hesitate and you or someone else is Lost. Do not hesitate, and a 12 yr old with a play gun is Lost. Duck and cover always good, if given a moment to do so. Also gives one time to help analyze a situation. Jus’ sayin’! …. and the lawyers circle

  32. This article is a farce, and probably written by someone who has never, and will (hopefully) never train a weapon on someone with intent. You can pre-game quaterback it all you want, taking someone’s life is much more of a serious matter than this clown would lead you to believe. I’m all for guns, and I’m all for recreational shooting. I have no problem with gun lobbying groups, and I agree with the scholars which say that the 2nd amdt indicates an individual’s right, not necessarily a state militia. I also believe in the responsible, lawful use of a weapon, and hang my head every time a bunch of idiots open carry in their local wal mart just to attract attention. This guy must be one of those morons. People like this don’t understand that the action of taking someone’s life does not end at the trigger pull, there are consequences and you as the trigger finger do not get to decide what those consequences are. Spewing garbage to the effect of “I will take another’s life if I feel threatened” shows indiscrimination to a high degree. This should be “I am prepared to take another’s life if need be.” I saw this kind of crap in the Marines and it made me sick. Marines who would have no problem pulling the trigger on an unarmed civilian, woman, child, etc. under the guise of feeling threatened. Bunch of fcking bullsht. Still makes me sick. Same immoral biggots that burned a family’s cash crop just becase they didn’t understand what was being asked of them…same fine young men who rolled up household family members so they could jack any cash they had. Yes, I equate this author and those Marines.

    I bet the author never considered this scenario – what if you live in an apt building, duplex, or densely populated area where your spent round could easily go through a wall or window and into the next guy’s house? Ever consider what lies beyond your target? I don’t care what you’re hopped up on, one round of compressed powder to the face will stop you. Getting pelted with rubber bullets in the chest will stop you. A few bean bags to the stomach will stop you. I have yet to witness a situation, foriegn or domestic, wherein non lethal rounds in whatever form failed to stop a charging individual or crowd. Hell, a water cannon can put someone on the ground. I’ve got a little kid in my house, and my neighbors have them too, on a cul-de-sac with houses in all directions; I’m not about to, even potentially, send a round into someone’s house, believe it or not stray lead has no intelligence and no matter how trained you are, or how good you think you are, when it comes time to train a weapon on someone, you have no clue how you will react. Epinephrine does funny things to your senses, and unless you are DEVGRU or CAG, then chances are your might be lucky to keep half of your rounds on target.

  33. Mike, I can’t directly reply to your last comment so just starting on more new thread on this and then I’m out:

    you said, “If coming at you with a knife isn’t considered to be **force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury** in California”

    and I’m saying YES…..coming at you with a knife IS considered ‘force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury”

    HOWEVER, you will have to prove that in court…and if you can’t, and the ballistics show he was just standing there, and NOT actually moving towards you, then you’re going to be in trouble. From a court stand point, [unfortunately] its better to have a dead burglar and a knife wound to your gut, than just a dead burglar.

      • Not at all a case in point. The guy wasn’t defending himself or his property; he set a trap so he could shoot someone.
        He told his hair stylists he was going to do it.

        • And that’s exactly my point….that guy has his side of the story, the DA has their side of the story. The jury believed the DA’s story and that’s all that matters.

          We don’t know sh1t about what really happened, but you read the article and even you believed their story.

          If you shoot someone, the DA is going to make up a similar story, I hope yours is better than theirs.

          Interesting that the article doesn’t even mention what the hell the kid was doing in his garage in the first place at that time. Set a trap? What’d he do, leave a trail of twinkies from the street? Was that the same person that had broken into his house before?

        • You can’t even be bothered to read the article you linked to, can you?
          I read the original report on this shooting when it happened, as well as the various follow-ups.
          From the moment the hair stylists’ testimony was given, it became plain there was no way this was a righteous shooting.

  34. I did read the article, and you obviously didn’t…if you did, you know that the article didn’t mention his ‘hair stylist’ at all.

    whatever report you read, it wasn’t referenced in the article, so I don’t know what you’re talking about; when you said, ‘he told his hair stylist’, I thought you were making a joke/exaggeration.

    BUT, MY POINT isn’t even whether he’s right or wrong…MY POINT is that if you KILL someone (justified or not), you better believe who ever you kill, their family is going to go after you no matter how ‘right’ (or ‘wrong’) you are. And if YOUR STORY, isn’t better than THEIR STORY, you’re going to jail. Even if this kid DID have a weapon, that guy would still be going to jail, because the kid’s lawyer’s story was better than his lawyer’s story. And that’s my point.

    If he put 2-3 LTL rounds into the kid’s chest, the kid wouldn’t be dead, and the guy wouldn’t be spending the next 10+ years in jail.

    99% of the time its going to be some stupid kid, making a stupid decision, breaking into your house. And his parents will NEVER say….”Oh, you killed my son who was trying to steal your TV? yeah, he deserved it.”

    End of story.

    • Actually it did; note the use of the word “correction” in the new title.
      NOW it says his girlfriend admitted he was setting a trap.

      Elsewhere the original story stands:

      “MISSOULA, Mont. (AP) — Just days before he shot to death a 17-year-old German exchange student, Markus Kaarma told hair stylists he had been waiting up to shoot some kids who were burglarizing homes.”

      The rest of your rant is fantasy based conjecture.

      PS Writing “End of Story” is the little kid at school yelling his last riposte in an argument then yelling “I won, I won” when plainly he didn’t.

  35. I use rubber javelin rounds. Tell the government to make this country not be a stupid retard backward ass thirdworld shithole being the only in the world for its idiotic shit than people will feel fine to use real rounds.

  36. There’s one thing that I’ve always wondered about. I pretty much know better but for as long as I can remember guys have always told me that if someone breaks into your house and you shoot them with buckshot and let’s face it, most likely kill them, unless God is watching over them, that you could be arrested for premeditated murder. They said that by using buckshot that you knew that you would most likely kill someone. I can only hope that if someone breaks into my home then the law won’t be worrying about what you shot them with. Any comments??

    • You could be arrested but it’s highly unlikely you will be charged with with anything, as defending yourself in your own home is a basic right.
      It doesn’t matter what firearm you use, be it a shotgun, handgun or rifle – you are using deadly force because you fear that the intruder is intent on doing you or your family great harm, or quite probably intent on killing you.

  37. I’m looking for something to run off my neighbor’s dogs during hunting season. They chase deer and generally piss me off. I don’t want to kill them so maybe getting hit hard with rubber balls wil teach them to stay home

  38. Where can you get those high-tech flying orbs like from the movie Phantasm ? (fire and forget)

  39. i am not sure about LTL buck, but a 12 gauge beanbag to the chest will break damn near every one of your ribs, take all the air out of your lungs, and drop you to the ground, incapacitating you for a good long time, as opposed to a 9mm, which hurt like hell, but will not immediately stop a charging homicidal maniac. I have been shot by both, and i was much less capable of causing harm to anyone after the bean bag. That being said, standard 12 gauge buckshot straight to the chest will drop anyone, and they won’t get back up no matter how crazy. If you are looking for home defense that is less than lethal, i definitely suggest bean bag, it is tested and proven, and will drop just about anyone (unless they are on PCP, that stuff does crazy thing) instantly. However i do agree with the author, if a gun is needed, lethal is the only sure thing to stop someone, and real buckshot is the best way to drop someone right there

  40. The author makes a few good points, however is obviously ignorant about what happens if someone is shot. Idgaf how lethal or non, large or small the rou.d is; or armored or not the person being shot is. I was shot a few times serving in the army, mostly with .762 ak-47 rounds; one of which was armour peircing and thank jeebus for a fluke catch by sapi-plates. It ALWAYS hurts like a bitch. If you really think a .22 in the shoulder isn’t enough to stop an assailant, or a beanbag to the chest won’t stop someone dead in their tracks I’d love to see the video where you prove me wrong. Stop doling out garbage to push your pro-gun propaganda. Mines loaded with .45 rubber bullets, always loaded, in the nightstand. If you just think they’re cool that’s fine; but don’t pretend to be an expert on self defense with a fire arm when it sounds like you got your “knowledge & expertise” from a John Woo flick.

    • Yeah, right.
      For a start it’s 7.62, not .762.
      Next up I’d rather be hit with AP than any hunting or self defence projectile.
      If you think a .22 to the shoulder is going to stop any & all assailants, then you don’t know anything whatsoever & there are multiple examples out there to refute your assertion. Google North Hollywood Shootout for one example of multiple hits not incapacitating & I’m not talking about hits on their armour.
      I don’t think you actually own a firearm.

  41. As someone who is active duty and has also been hit with rubbers, you do not get back up. That shit hurts and if you take it in the chest, it takes the wind out of you and leaves you gasping for air on the ground. That is, if it doesn’t break a rib and punctures a lung.

  42. Here is how I see it, I don’t want to kill anyone unless there is no other option under the law. I value my butt hole too much to be a quick draw and lose in court. What is wrong with loading the first two rounds with LTL and conventional 45 cal rounds behind it if necessary? With all the shootings in Chicago recently, it seems like a white male shooter is already 1/2 guilty unless wounded by the perp first.

  43. I just saw a video where the muslims in europe were blocking roads and such. I figure that in such a situation, you don’t want to kill them but you want them to go away from you, you being in relative safety in your car.
    Otherwise, yeah, don’t shoot somebody with rubber who is endangering your life.

  44. Who wrote this article?? You have seen way too many movies bro. Bean bag rounds at close range from a shotgun is practically lethal dude lol
    If the intruder is on PCP meth or combo of both then yah they’re not going down easy but guess what, a taster is the last thing that will work lol take a class man

  45. Many people do not believe that anyone and everyone who might invade the home should be or needs to be attacked with lethal force. There’s a moral obligation to make every reasonable effort to determine whose life you’re probably about to take. Say some unarmed punk kid breaks in. For the homeowner type I describe, it seems the option of LTL rounds takes the adrenaline-skewed, split-second decision of “is this kid armed and dangerous or just a young dumbass who’s in over his head here” out of the equation. When in doubt, shoot and incapacitate. To me, this LTL ammo option adds clarity and leads to quicker, more decisive action when split seconds count. All this being relevant only if you’re the kind of person who finds all life valuable and believes putting someone at risk of serious bodily harm or death a thing to be avoided at almost any cost.

  46. I hate to be the arguer for the side of less lethal force, but just to play devil’s advocate… you ever been shot with a “rubber bullet”? Those fucker hurt. A lot. And they can easily break bones, especially in the hands of anyone trained by any branch of armed government forces (police, military, etc), where they teach you to double or even triple tap your target.

    I’m sorry, but you put three rubber bullets in a perp’s chest, sodding bastard ain’t going nowhere, much less murdering you. Not through broken ribs and potentially punctured lungs. A triple tap to the chest with a 9mm loaded up with rubber bullets, there’s less damage from a 2.5 pound sledge to the ribs.

  47. Rexzero1 says:
    March 27, 2016 at 17:05
    “It’s not a matter of if it will or can stop the threat its the fact that you knowingly fired non lethal munitions at the threat. A lawyer can easily make the jury believe you did not fear for your life and your use of force was not justified under self-defense laws.”

    This seems like a bogus argument, unless you load your magazine *after* the threat appears. To the contrary, having a mag with one or two LTL rounds at the beginning in fact indicates that you are not looking for an excuse to murder someone (like the two-to-the-body-and-one-to-the-head guy above).

    It is true that you take a ding to your self-defense capability. That is a personal choice, and no way of knowing if it is smart or stupid until after the fact for a given attack. I, for one, believe a case is to be made for balancing things so that you can survive both the attack and then the TWO YEARS OF HELL IN THE LEGAL SYSTEM AFTERWARDS. The reality, is that often it is going to be the smart play–in our dysfunctional legal system–to let yourself get beat up and injured rather than defending yourself with lethal force. (Better have a witness and video and have some sort of injury to show police…I know, we are the only animal on the planet that in any way has our God-given right to self-defense hamstrung.)

  48. Who are you to say if someone lives or dies. And most people who do home invasions have no intention in hurting the people in the home and are likely very desperate. And anyone who says non lethals wont stop someone yoy have never been hit by a bean bag round. And if someone is 10 feet away with a knife or any melee weapon u better be able to rack ur gun and get them with a bean bag before they get you. And if you do have lethal ammunition shoot them in the damn kneecap. Ive yet to meet someone who continues to attack after their kneecap is demolished. Seems like those of you who are prepared to kill someone that quick shld be reevaluated for mental health issues and probably shldnt have a gun. If ur gunna kill someone for simply tresspassing or stealing than your a souless individual. Give them a chance. Rack your gun and hit them with a non lethal if they still dont run. I guarantee they will be incapacitated long enough to rack ur gun again and demand them to stop being a dumbass. Dont get all high and mighty, everyone has a bad day granted not everyone robs a home you still shldnt take their life until yoy know they are prepared to take yours. Because murder is worse than home invasion.

    • Shoot em in the knee cap. Hahahaha, you live in fantasy land. These people don’t think like you. These are people who have been victimized their whole life and when forced into a life of crime feel they are victimized by the society that you represent. 10 feet? Google the 21 foot rule, but let say he’s 10′ away, you got your 36″ shot gun up on your shoulder, so now you only have 7 feet. He already knows you don’t have the balls to shoot. He plays possum, you’re the big man with the gun, he gives up, but do you really think he’s going back to jail when he just spent the last 10 years there pumping iron? A duck and a weave and he’s under your 3 foot shot gun, and it’s all over for you.

      It’s not that we (I) am so eager to kill, it’s that they are. Was it your post or someone else’s that said most people who break in aren’t there to do you harm? They’re just desperate. While he’s quietly sitting at your table waiting for the police to arrive, you should probably make him a ham sandwich and throw him a couple Hamilton’s so he buy some snacks at the jail canteen tomorrow.

      This entire page is filled with victim after victim.

      To the person who invited me to take a rubber bullet to the chest. I’ve fired rubber bullets and bean bags at people, no thank you. But let me invite you to a few murder scenes. Particularly a prostitute murder for some reason murders just love to take their time killing prostitutes. Let me introduce you to the victims families, who will be your family members. They’re destroyed for life, as your family will be. You don’t just owe it to yourself to survive, you owe it to your friends and family to survive.

      I wish I could live in your bubble, but once you pop the bubble and leave, there is not going back. You can’t unsee what you’ve seen, you can’t unknow what you know.

      You have empathy, chances are your perp is a sociopath or on drugs and does not have ANY empathy for you. Trust me. We’re not talking about someone on the street, we’re talking about someone IN YOUR HOUSE. Sociopaths are smooth talkers, they’ll get your guard down, because as children they had no empathy, they had to study what makes them different from you and I. Eventually they understand it, but they’ve spent their whole lives studying us. They know just what to say, they know just how to act and trust me they’re not going back to jail because some pampered socialite is holding a 3 foot long gun 7 feet away from them, You’re such an easy mark for guys like this.

  49. I use less lethals as my first shot simply to disable an intruder. Reason being if the intruder is in between my children’s bedroom door and the objective end of my HD 12ga I can stun him enough, at the very least, to get in position to send a more fatal round in the bad guys center mass. Then clear the house, join the family then call the authorities. So I’ve partially disabled the assailant with a less lethal and fully disabled with a hot rnd. All the while I had a little more piece of mind while sending the first blast towards my kids rooms. An unfortunate situation in any case but with LL rnds mixed in with the “real deal” there’s less chance of stray pellets making their way into innocent bodies.

  50. It was interesting reading the views and ideas regarding the use of LTL. I have also kicked the idea of loading one of my home defense shotguns with non lethal rubber bullets.
    My contribution to this discussion is my inference only, not going to quote stats,news reports etc.

    Many of us own a firearm for home or self defense, most do not want to shoot unless it is necessary for several reasons, liability, legal ramifications and now we have to be aware of the social climate if you shoot a person of a race different than yous. It’s good that responsible gun owners debate, but just as it is a choice of which firearm you buy, it is your choice of what ever works for you. Unfortunately, I live in N.California were the law makers use “gun violence” for a political platform while ignoring the reasons why we feel the need to arm ourselves. So if you have to use deadly force, you better be within all parameters of the law. D.A.’s attitude towards self defense can vary from county to county here. So keep up on the changing laws and political attitudes, and decide what level of force works for you before you have to use the weapon. In a crises, you wont have the time to think about anything but where your going to place the first shot.
    For myself, I have already made my decision I hope I never have to use lethal force. But my life and my family come first. Also seek out an attorney who specializes in self defense shooting charges. Better to know one ahead of time, just in case you need one. And finally, do not use a public defender, they are hired by the DA and most will have very little to no experience in this field.

    Be safe and smart.

  51. Anyone writing negative reviews of rubber, non-lethal shotgun rounds for home defense. Would you please let me shoot you with a non-lethal round @ room distances BEFORE you write a review?

    • What difference does it make the guy is in your house. Suppose he runs out of the house after being hit by the rubber bullet. you going to shoot him in the back as he’s running away? You going to jail.

      Run, run away, he’ll be back another day. Next week, next month, next year. Your life will never be the same.

  52. I’m a total gun nut. I’ve got guns coming out of my ears, there’s so many. I don’t shoot very much any more because if you shoot ’em, you’ve got to clean ’em. I’m not so much into the cleaning part anymore. I’ve recently bought a Taser Pulse. Once fired into the attacker it will jolt them for thirty seconds. After it stops I can pull the trigger again and give them another thirty second jolt. You can keep them down long enough for the police to arrive. I’ve recently been looking into getting rubber 9mm rounds for my LC9s, my carry gun. I have seen (pictures on Google) the injury these things can cause. It doesn’t look pleasant. Of course I would need to test fire this type of ammo to make sure they cycled properly. I’ve always tested any new gun before relying on it in a critical situation. It only makes sense to do it with this ammo too. The reason I’ve been considering these less than lethal alternatives is because the idea of killing anyone has become increasingly abhorrent to me, even if they are a bad guy. The idea of knowing I’m using something that is less likely to kill someone, I think, is making it easier for my own peace of mind. If you kill someone, you have to live with it, even if the law says it was justifiable. There is another less than lethal weapon that I’ve been looking at lately. Defenzia. Of course in a total SHTF scenario, you better have all the real firepower you can get your hands own.

  53. If an individual, a Citizen, not a subject, pre-loads a firearm with a less than lethal round with the intention toward safety in the case of an accidental firing, then s/he is not intentionally firing a non-lethal round at a life’s threat, other than to clear the way for the next round, should it be necessary. The firearm might not even be owned with the mind toward self-defense. It could be strictly for target practice. It’s use as a defensive implement, if warranted by the force necessary theory, is not precluded. Neither is the use of a Q-tip for the same reasons.
    There is no obligation to keep firing, nor an obligation to stop firing if the threat to life remains.
    “Whether or not you can or will be prosecuted for use of a deadly weapon, or sued by the criminal perpetrator that forced you to defend yourself, is a secondary after the fact issue beyond your control.”
    But, loading a non-lethal round is not going to lead to your prosecution in the case where a lethal round would not have resulted in the same. And, a jury is likely to be sympathetic, if they ever will, to your evidenced preference not to kill another human were a choice to exist.

  54. You don’t shoot to kill. You don’t shoot to disable or wound. You shoot to stop the threat. Any thing else is excessive.

  55. Any time you shoot it’s gonna.be a case. Your justification in shooting will be judged. There are more than a few things to do to stop the threat and justify your having to shoot. But trying to justify two in the chest and one in the head ain’t going to be easy. It may come to that but you better be able to justify it. Bottom line is you have to be alive to get sued. For me…If I’m having a Break in and I rack a shotgun round that’s warning nr 1, When I shout a warning thats.nr 2, If I’m threatened with a weapon and I pop him in the chest with a bean bag thats nr 3, If he’s still coming he’s one dumb SOB. Might have to go to nr 4 or 5. But I’ve demonstrated that I’ve progressed from the least amount of force which justifies my self defence. I did what I had to do to save my life. At least I’m alive to tell my story.

    • Oh, he’ll run. Run, run away, he’ll be back another day.

      Your wife will want to move, she’ll live in fear, she’ll think you’re a coward, she might not say it, but every time she hears a squeeky floorboard she’ll think it. You and your family if he gets away will be under constant paranoia. Who was it, will he come back, is he going to get your wife or kids while your at work? What was he after? Money? Rape? Kidnap your kid? What was the motive? You’ll never know. Your life will be over.

      The guy is probably tweeking, and so high your Hollywood tactics don’t impress him and he could be on you before you get that 2nd shot off. Google the 21 foot rule. You got 21 foot bedrooms? 21 foot hallways? You’re mistaking this guy in your house as someone who thinks like yourself. Even if he’s not tweeking with super human strength and super human stupidity. What if he’s a hardened criminal that thrived on being gassed by Correction Officers and never gave up the struggle until he was 4 pointed and naked on a stainless steal bed? Just like the Terminator, I’ve seen guys endure incredible pain, and never give up. You ever play football or basketball? I don’t care how good you are, there is always someone who can duck and weave and get past you, that means they can get under your gun around your waist. You sooo under estimate the criminal mind. Do yourself a favor and grow a set of balls or sell your intimidatior. I’ll give you a 20/80 chance of you over powering him and living, because if he’s around your waist he’s determined and you’re disoriented, but you can identify him now. Your gun is flailing your wife and kids are in the room now watching, you don’t dare fire off a round now, with your family there. He’s inside the length of the barrel anyway, it won’t do any good. It’s time you all become good victim and do what the sociopath tells you.

      I can see the guy getting hit by the rubber bullet and the dumb bastard keeps coming at you. He is just wounded by your second real shot. In court he’s going to be sitting his his wheel chair telling the jury he gave up after the 1st shot, but you kept on shooting.

      True story: B&E in the night time, the guy comes out of his bedroom with a gun and REAL bullets. The perp immediately surrenders and becomes submissive. The homeowner is caught off guard and the perp charges him, take his gun away, fucks him in the ass, ties him up and walks out with his tv and his gun.

      These people don’t think like you! This isn’t Hollywood, and you’re not Cool Hand Luke.

  56. The term is “Less Lethal” not “Less than lethal” Less lethal means it can still be lethal. Less than lethal means it’s not lethal. Makes a difference. I.e. If some one is shot in the head with a less lethal round he’s probably dead. Get it?

  57. The arguments about being in court I suppose have some merit, that you didn’t actually fear for your life. But I have seen many juries, and few are that gullible. For everyone, I recommend USCCA, so you can have competent counsel on tap.

    • USCCA much like other non-profit legal organizations can only handle a small percentage of the cases submitted to them. You’re much more likely to be left with a public defender if you cannot afford counsel.

  58. This is such a poorly thought out article. The reason for leading with less lethal rounds isn’t just to avoid killing someone; It’s also to help your court case if you must kill someone. Owning a gun is like having a black-belt. Just because you can kill someone who is attacking you doesn’t mean you are allowed to. The smart thing to do is to avoid committing a murder, justified or not, because YOU don’t decide whether it was justified. The DA does, and then 12 random assholes decide whether it was self defense. Oh and guess what else: if you can’t make bail, you sit in jail until you are acquitted, which could take up to a year. Innocent or not, that means you lose your house, your job, and on and on. There are consequences to using lethal force on someone, even in self defense. A lot of people go to prison for a murder that they committed while defending their own lives. Also, a beanbag to the chest at close range will disable any person not wearing a flak vest, if not knock them fully unconsious. People die from getting hit by bean bags. That’s why they are called “less lethal” instead of “non-lethal”. If the writer doubts this: I suggest he purchase a bean bag round, and allow a friend to shoot him from 10-15′ away.

    • Seriously? Someone is in your house and you are worried about the court system?

      When the police arrive, you tell them; He was an unknown intruder, you were in fear for your life, there is a dead man in my house, I’m sure you can grasp the gravity of these circumstances, I’d prefer not to say or forfeit any of my Constitutional Rights until I consult with an attorney, I know you as a police officer can appreciate that considering the politics that surround incidences like these. You are welcome to investigate any physical evidence. I am going to fully cooperate with the investigation short of giving up my rights.”

      Didn’t some girl in NYC die from a pepper spray paint ball bouncing off the ground and hitting her in the eye some time ago? Maybe you’ll hit this guy in the throat with a bean bag round and crush is esophagus. The paramedics arrive in time to save his life, but oxygen has been cut off to his brain so long, he’s a drooling retard who claims he was just drunk and accidentally walked into the wrong house. Worse than prison were you’ll get fed 3 meals a day, you’ll be on the street and he’ll be living in your house!

  59. I have to agree with you about not shooting less than lethal rounds, but to call buck shot and .22 less than lethal is just not only non-sense, it tells everyone exactly where you are in your evolutionary education about guns & ammo.

    Buckshot: Ummmm, kills bucks as in deer. As far as shooting it out of a 2.5″ barrel, waking up half asleep at 3am by an intruder. You’re going to get a 10″ circle hit at 3-5 yards. Inside a house, I’m pretty sure that would be a fair estimate of the distances you’re going to be firing. So each 2.5″ .410 shell has 3 or 4 – 36 caliber pellets. Yeah, you’re not going to get the muzzle velocity of an 18″ barrel but you’ve got 3-4 deadly rounds in a 10″ pattern as opposed to one shot that you have to hit dead on. It’s the middle of the night, you’re sleepy, confused, for at least a few seconds. 10″ radius? I’ll take it! #4 shot has up to 8, 24 caliber pellets in it. Same akward shot, you’ve got double the amount of pellets in those 10 inches, so if you only hit the perp with 2, 36 caliber rounds, it’s safe to say you’re going to hit him with 4, 24 caliber rounds. If you’re going to hit him center mass with a single bullet, you’re probably going to hit him with the same center mass shot with 3-8 rounds with a Governor or a Judge, and while the muzzle velocity of the G&J might be miserable in the high 800’s Your’re hitting him with potentially 18 – 48 rounds of ammunition!

    .22 ballistically speaking is almost a perfect round with regard to gun powder to bullet weight. I’d take a 40 grain round nose .22 over a .25, a .32, a .38 or even a 380. The muzzle velocities are miserable in these rounds.

    Every one wants to talk about knock down power. Well round placement is sooooo much more important! Even a 9mm is only slightly better than a .22, that is why Law enforcement went from a 9mm to a .40.
    so if you want to put a .22 up against some real fire power ie; .357 and up then you have a point.

    So lets talk about the second shot.
    The recoil on both the 410 pistols (because of the shear weight of the gun and the low muzzle velocity) and the .22 are going to be a lot less than a .357 and higher, so you’re going to be able to get back on target much faster.

    By far the .410 pistol in my opinion is the ultimate home defense weapon, and if you’re going to tell me a .22 is just going to make a perp angry I invite you to stand in front of one.

    .22’s are soooo much easier to carry than a large caliber pistol, so there is a trade off. I carry every day. It’s usually either my .357 revolver or my 9mm because of the capacity of rounds it carries and with my carry set up I can actually carry 3 extra magazines, but if I had it over to do I’d have gotten the .40 there are those occasions like jogging or hanging out at the pool or I’m making a quick trip somewhere and I don’t feel like strapping up, all I take is a N.A.A. Mini .22 revolver, a fantastically engineered gun.

    This get a real gun mentality when it comes to a .22 sucks. Not that it’s just for women, but I always recommend .22’s to women because they’re more apt to carry one and the constant criticism is quit frankly b.s. The two .22’s I would currently highly recommend would be either the Ruger SR22 w a 10 shot magazine or the Ruger .22 LCR 8 shot. Two very different guns. Depending on the woman if she likes the option of single action and isn’t intimidated by a semi auto the SR22 might be a great option. On the other hand the LCR is simpler, you’re less likely to waste bullets, there is no hammer to get caught up on clothing, they are shorter, lighter easier to conceal easier to retrieve less complex, less intimidating for the novice shooter. Unless you’ve got an enthusiastic young woman shooter,I’d recommend the LCR.

    I have little use for anything between a .25 and a .38, and if you’re not already invested in a 9mm, I’d say go with the .40, but to constantly ridicule the .22 is a huge disservice to the gun community.

    I’ll leave you with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUM1r_444CY&t=279s

    • It has been my experience to have a 5% failure rate with 22lr in my Smith and Wesson. To use a 22 as a self defense weapon is foolish.

      • Foolish is using anything smaller than a .357 or a .40 except for a .22.
        Women and small people in general are NOT going to go around carrying large guns, you’re alienating and entire group of people with your ignorance and prejudice against the .22

        The 40 grain round nose .22 is a near perfect round with up to an 1800 ft/sec muzzle velocity. I went into great detail explaining this and you come back with .22 for self defense is just foolish. What do you suggest for an inexperienced 105 lbs woman, or an elderly person? You can’t handle a big gun, so just be a victim?

        Put a little effort into your response or send a video of you putting a .22 to your temple and showing us how ineffective they are.

        • My point was there is a lot of crappy rimfire ammo out there. Said no my experience, I have 5% FAILURE rate with my 22, Or one fail to fire every two magazines.

          I have nothing against a 22, but I can’t trust it to fire. Period.

          All of my other guns fire every time I pull the trigger.

        • My Dad once said that sometimes the primer material can come out from the rim and you can have a dead spot or two on the rim fire cartridge. It could happen even more often on old ammo, or ammo not stored correctly. You can usually turn a misfired .22 cartridge and get it to fire. However, that’s no good in a pinch.

        • My findings aren’t scientific, the rate might be 2.5% or 5 fail to fire of 200 Rounds. I’m not naming names of ammo without facts. Every non fired round had a good rim dent or notch in it and every round fired the second time. The ammo is less than two years old and stored in a dorm fridge with a box of desiccant. The fridge isn’t plugged in. All of the suspect ammo is of the same manufacturer. This is my first 22 gun and I’m not sure what to expect from rimfire ammo.

        • I personally would not use .22 as a defensive round. Mainly because of the increased chance of misfire as compared to center fire cartridges. .22 is a great little round for small game. The smallest carry gun I’ve ever used is .380 with Hydra-Shok.

      • 5% failure rate with .22LR?
        Bring your gun into get fixed and if that is not the problem, there can be only one other factor.
        5% failure rate. OMG
        In all my shooting, I’ve had one bad primer in a 12g shot gun, talk about scary removing a 12g round with a dimpled primer.
        I’ve had countless stove pipes on mini 14’s and AR15’s. I’ve never had a jam in my .22 AR7, but I’ve only put a few hundred rounds through it. I have NEVER had my Remington .22 rifle jam and I’ve been shooting it since I was 10 yrs old. I’ve NEVER had a revolver of any kind malfunction.
        I’ve never had any of my semi-auto pistols jam including my 22’s. You people who get all these jams are doing something wrong or you just want to exaggerate how much experience you have. I was in the military and then spent 11 years on a swat team. I have put guns through hell, and have had to use guns that have been put through hell.

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