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Loads of armed Americans load-up their home defense shotgun with less-lethal buckshot. More than a few owners of the shotshell firing Taurus Judge and Smith & Wesson Governor revolvers do likewise—at least for the first chamber or two. Wrong answer. There’s only one reason to shoot someone: if they pose a credible, imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm to you or another innocent life. If it’s do or die, you want to stop a threat as quickly, efficiently and completely as possible. Shooting a bad guy with less lethal rounds (or aiming lethal rounds at extremities) to “just wound” an attacker is a dangerously naive plan. Actually, it’s so stupid it’s not really a plan at all . . .
Gun enthusiasts have a standard slam against people carrying small rounds (e.g. .22 caliber) for self-defense: “It’ll just make them angry.” While I don’t suffer from bullet envy—much—it’s no joke, really. There’s nothing makes a homicidal attacker really homicidal like getting shot.
Even if you shoot a perp straight through the heart with a fairly large caliber honest-to-God bullet it can take as much as 30 seconds for them to “bleed out.” Your average bad guy can do a lot of damage, including murder, in that time. Why give them the chance?
Again, you’re not shooting to kill. You’re shooting to stop a deadly threat and, thus, make it possible to GTFO. Wherever possible. A beanbag round ain’t gonna get it done. Not reliably. In fact, one wonders why anyone would even own a beanbag round, never mind confuse it with “proper” shotgun ammo.
There is a potential exception: a TASER. Shoot a bad guy with a TASER and he’s going down. Unless you miss. Or the barbs don’t make it through a heavy jacket. Or you don’t have your slimline C2 in situ or immediate access to the bulkier but more badass X26C or M26c.
Of course, a TASER creates a temporary pause in the action. After the effect wears off, what then? The company readily admits that their ECD units are no substitute for a “proper” firearm.
By the same token, less-lethal rounds are no substitute for lethal rounds. If you use a gun for self-defense, don’t use it until you are within your legal right to do so. If you are, when you do, make it count. The life you save may be your own.
I’ve always wanted to try one of those bean bag rounds for my shotgun, I dont think I’ve ever heard of LTL buckshot
sounds sorta like an oxymorn type thing
Hmm…will stick with ak for HD
You can get rubber buckshot. I certainly wouldn’t want to get hit with it, but also wouldn’t use it for anything serious…
Instead of loading up with non-lethal rounds, just train to miss. Intentionally missing the target with regular ammo is way cheaper than shooting non-lethal ammo at the target and makes just as much sense.
I don’t think it’s fair to compare a .22 to a “less than lethal” round. I’ve seen .22 hollowpoints fired into ballistics gel. They’re pretty devastating. I would imagine four or five of those from a 10/22 will discourage most attackers.
Nobody wants to get shot, and the theory that getting shot will just enrage someone seems a bit fantastic.
The critical phrase in your comment is “most attackers.” If I ever need DGU, G-d forbid, I am aiming for “99.999+% of all attackers.”
[.357 revolver, .40 semi, #2 magnum shotgun]
Good enough for government work is why we are where we are today. My life deserves six sigmas.
Is the standard the Miami Shootout? Those two absorbed lethal hits from 9mm Silvertips, .38 Specials, and I believe 12 gauge buckshot—and kept coming.
Ideally one would have a 12 gauge shotgun or battle rifle in .30 caliber—but a .22 is better than a poke with a sharp stick. I would not feel outgunned with a 10/22 loaded with CCI Stingers.
the miami shootout and the north hollywood bank battle are not typical self defense cases. both cases had well armed badguys with a “will not be taken alive” attitude. fortunately for us this type of badguy is rare in this country.
The problem is the drugged-up perps. The concept of “pain” and “don’t want to be shot” may not apply.
And I agree. A .22 is not a thrown pillow, but in extremis, if that’s all I had, I would even use the latter.
The question is, what should my defensive-gun be as a first choice? And “most attackers” is not the standard I use.
The Miami and LA shooters recognized that they were in a no run-away situation. It was a duel to the death. Unless you are the target of a contract killer or SPETNAZ your attacker is going to want to beat feat as fast as possible confident that you will not pursue. Just don’t shoot him in the legs so he cannot safely retreat.
Parole violators and two strikers are exactly the kind of people who will run away when faced with armed resistance. If they get shot they get caught. The drug addled threat may or may not depart the scene. It all depends on what kind of drug they are on.
Six S&W Sigmas would do the trick, if you can stand the cement trigger.
Can’t run away would include drug-addled home invaders, but more importantly, parole violators and two-time losers in three-strike states.
i must have gotten lucky with my sigma. it’s about the same as a k frame double action. for a self defense weapon that’s good enough for me.
But as soon as you shoot at them, from their perspective, they are now fighting for their life. They can’t read minds any more than you can. Don’t assume they value their lives any less than you value yours.
Exactly. Self preservation is top priority of almost everyone, including most druggies. They don’t want to die, they want to score some cash for another hit. I tend to avoid places where druggies hang out anyway.
I approve this message… the ONLY goal of self-defense is to remove the will of the attacker to continue the attack.
Oh, and no one wants to get poked in the eye with a stick. However, I do not recommend using a pointy stick for self defense.
I’d rather have a .22 than nothing. Or even a baseball bat or machete. A .22 gives me distance. Yes, I suppose a the rare crazed, juiced up lunatic can brush off multiple rounds of .22 LR, but for the most part, nobody is willing to be shot even once if they can possibly avoid it. I can empty a full magazine from a Ruger 10/22 into someone in about 2 seconds. When you’re in a hail of bullets, your instinct is to escape the hail, not head into it.
I doubt the use of “deadly physical force”, in any state, distinguishes less-than-lethal ammunition.
I think the problems arise if it comes to a trial, and an out of control prosecuting attorney convinces a jury that the mere use of less than lethal rounds proves that you were not afraid for your life. Like if you were you’d run the action a few times to clear out the less lethal rounds to get to the good stuff.
A story about two morons whose lives are ruined.
Really? I’m mad and will win this argument by shooting you with been bag ammo.
Wait, this should really be a IGOTD award.
Recommended basic reading on self-defense: Massad Ayoob’s book, “In the Gravest Extreme”. He put this in writing 30 years ago, and it is still the basic principle on legal self-defense:
A firearm is LETHAL FORCE. You are legally justified in the use of lethal force only when you, or an innocent third party, are in the immediate danger of death or grave bodily harm. IMMEDIATE danger of DEATH or GBH.
You are not a police officer. It is not your job to subdue and capture a criminal or a rioter, which is what the less-than-lethal ammo is designed to do. If you use the LTL rounds, the question for the courts is now “if your life/health was not in immediate danger, why did you use a firearm (which represents lethal force) in the first place?”
And if your LTL round hits the perp in an eye, or does any other kind of permanent damage, you are going to be sued into poverty.
If you have to shoot someone to save your life or prevent GBH, shoot them with a real gun and real bullets. Otherwise, if you are not in immediate danger, do not shoot them at all.
Yes. Well said and accurate.
we get wrapped up in the debate of hi-cap mags, which is better caliber, rifle vs. shotgun etc. regardless of what you’re using you cannot be sure you will get more than 1 shot at your attacker. you may, but that’s not a promise. don’t waste your 1 chance on a ltl round or a warning shot. in my case i’m protecting a house full of females. i will only fire if i have no other choice. when i fire it’s going to be the most lethal shot i can take.
“in my case i’m protecting a house full of females”
In my twenties, I liked living in California with a home full of single females. These days, that would drive me nuts.
consider me driven nuts. the females are my wife, daufgter and two granddaughters. i stand a better chance of winning an argument with a crackhead than this bunch.
I don’t like tasers for three reasons:
(1) If you miss, you are screwed.
(2) If two or more people attack you, you are screwed.
(3) If your battery corrodes or fails, you are screwed.
On top of that you better carry handcuffs with your taser so you can prevent the attacker from attacking with his hands after the taser wears off. Of course handcuffs don’t stop the attacker from kicking you brutally. You might as well use pepper spray — which is equally ineffective against a determined attacker or gang of attackers.
Non-lethal rounds (like beanbag rounds) for shotguns are “compliance” rounds. Their purpose is to make a person’s job a little safer when the job is getting a person or group of people to go home. They make sense if you are facing a protestor, have additional people backing you up, and you and your backup have firearms with real ammunition ready. In other words a citizen should not use non-lethal rounds.
I really have never met anyone else who owns a judge or raging judge aside from me but I like to keep my 1st round a 255gr. coppertop .45LC hollowpoint, followed by a flat top all lead nosed 250gr. .45LC round.
The 3rd round will be a 3″ PDX1 .410 shotshell just in case I need the spread of the four .40 copper discs & 17 BB’s. (after shooting a few dozen of these rounds I have proven to myself they will hold a 5″ pattern up to 50′ everytime.)
The next two are the same hollowpoint/lead nose with the last round being a 454 casull hollowpoint @ 300gr so I know without a doubt the last round has been fired.
my wife wants a judge but we can’t get 1 in ca. ain’t that a stupid rule?
Sure you can – all you need is a lot of money and you can probably buy most judges in Ca.
Oh wait, you meant the revolver, not the twit in the black robe.
As others have said, ordinary citizens aren’t cops. It’s not our job to go around subduing bad guys or dispersing a riot. For us, any weapon–be it a baseball bat, a knife, a gun, or whatever–can be used only when we’re faced with the threat of immediate death or serious injury. In a situation like that, I’m not playing games. I’m in the fight to survive.
BINGO!! The civilian who is defending himself is totally different than law enforcement who’s job it is to get the bad guy into court for a conviction. Thats the law enforcements job. Your interest is to survive a possible deadly situation.
Your not in it for an arrest. Your personal interest is survival. Your not paid to get an arrest or to detain. If law enforcement is present, let them determine if less than lethal is warranted. You protect yourself the best way possible, PERIOD!
A month ago, there was a good post here about the statistical stopping power of the .22 caliber. It works. Bottom line: less than lethal rounds may not be enough to stop the attacker and too powerful rounds may over-penetrate endangering others and might also make a self-defense shooter hesitate concerned with the upcoming recoil.
Does anyone know of any real-world cases where people used LTL rounds and ended up being subsequently overrun by their attacker?
didn’t i see somewhere that the border patrol agent that was murdered by one of holders f&f guns had bean bag rounds in his shotgun when he was killed? or was that a completely unrelated case.
If & that’s a very faint if, I was faced with a threat that to me necessitated using a firearm, then I’d want the most effective ammunition available & preferably in 9mm & upwards.
Heck, if the threat is potentially lethal I want to stop it there & then & with little or no chance of it recurring.
To that end Tasers, bean bags & rubber bucks are utterly inappropriate because I have no desire to have the bugger(s) get up & have another go.
I’ll play the devil’s advocate. One reason I can offer in support of buckshot is that one does not have to worry about overpenetration much.
You can never be sure the first round will hit the bad guy while some people can argue that even a missed shotgun shot can deter an attacker. So one buckshot round has reasonably high chance of stopping an attack (or at least giving you time for a second shot) *and* lower probability of seriously hurting innocents.
After all, one of the things many people do not want to happen is the shots they have fired paying a visit to their neighbors. Try telling someone “Uh, I’m sorry for killing your little girl, it was dark outside and I missed that drug junkie and I had no idea she was behind that bush.”
I like the idea (ive never been in a situation to know first hand) of LTL ammo as it reduces the risk of fatal collateral damage. In close quarters situations a stray bean bag won’t drive itself, and deadly high velocity debris, through walls and floors. Rubber bullet could, but with far less risk than non-exotic ammo.
It seems to me that, unless my attacker is in an open space, still, and I’m clearheaded and calm, shooting conventional ammo inside my home is as dangerouse for my family as the attacker. Just my $0.02. I’m not very experienced with guns or violence though, and so don’t claim to be more knowledgable than anyone else here.
Just to be clear, the LTL ‘buckshot’ discussed here is made of rubber? Not, say, #3 buck from a 20 ga?