Life Imitates Art: Trayvon Martin Shooting is Bonfire of the Vanities Redux

Remember Tom Wolfe’s 80′s novel Bonfire of the Vanities? Henry Lamb was the hit-and-run victim of a callous investment banker’s mistress. Maria Ruskin struck Lamb with money man Sherman McCoy’s Mercedes when the pair missed a highway onramp and ended-up lost in the South Bronx. The serialized story of money, power, greed, politics and the media captured the tenor of the times. And now we have life imitating art in the Trayvon Martin shooting. The parallels are unmistakable . . .

As a story, the Martin shooting is only really just getting going. But before this little passion play is played out, it will be cast with a stomach-churning assortment of mau-mauing “community organizers,” callow politicians, opportunistic anti-gun activists and the too-willing media, pleased as punch to present the whole nauseating hot mess in just the right light. To paraphrase Margo Channing, fasten your seat belts because it’s going to be one hell of a bumpy ride.

Sound familiar?

If you haven’t read Bonfire of the Vanities—don’t bother with the uniquely awful movie—a simple traffic accident triggers a feeding frenzy of self-promotion and ass-covering. No one would mistake George Zimmerman (no relation) for a wealthy, WASPy Master of the Universe. If press reports are relied on, some of his actions may have been questionable at best. But casting him as a racist wannabe cop just lookin’ for someone to shoot seems just a little too pat. Yes, the Sanford, Florida shooting has all the hallmarks of Wolfe’s literary sensation.

- An African American “victim” – In Bonfire, Lamb was revealed to be something less than an entirely blameless casualty. We’ve yet to hear the full story surrounding Trayvon Martin’s actions in Zimmerman’s gated community, but his media portrayal paints an eerily similar picture to Lamb’s coverage.

- A media feeding frenzy – In Bonfire, a dissolute British journalist takes a relatively local story and blows it up into a national cause celebre. As befits our time, social media agitators are performing the same function.

- A race-baiting African-American Reverend – The Bonfire’s Reverend Bacon was based on Reverend Al Sharpton’s race-based extortion and self-promotion. In the Martin case, Al Sharpton plays the roll of Al Sharpton.

- Carefully orchestrated public protests – In Bonfire, Bacon organizes pubic protests to call attention to the supposed inaction and racial prejudice of the New York justice system. Tonight, organizers have created the Million Hoodie March, wherein literally dozens of New Yorkers will march for “justice” for Martin while wearing hoodies. And thousands more will pose with hoodies on their Facebook page.

No one came out of the Vanities meat grinder blameless or unscathed. And so shall it be in this real-life Sunshine State version. This sad death—one for which hard facts and conclusive evidence don’t seem to exist—is tailor-made for anyone with an agenda and sharp enough elbows to seize the spotlight, make a name for himself and advance an agenda.

138 Responses to Life Imitates Art: Trayvon Martin Shooting is Bonfire of the Vanities Redux

  1. avatarDon says:

    The authorities in the county had almost a month to get out in front of this legal and public relations train wreck but they sat on their hands.
    Anyone not born yesterday could have seen this coming a mile away but these guys didn’t. So are they the best ones to determine the truth in this case, if anyone can at this late date?

    • avatartravis m. says:

      I have to agree with this, this wouldn’t be a scandal if it weren’t for the lazy police reaction. It seems that they didn’t want to do any investigations of any sort, which is why there is so little information out there and why a court case is probably doomed. Reasonable doubt was created by police apathy, as well as the public humiliation and condemnation of Mr. Martin. So what we get is another sad story and the cops trying to cover their ass. The only question is if they manage to cover their ass or not.

      • avatarMichael B. says:

        A teenager was shot to death by an idiot with a concealed weapons permit. Even if they had arrested him and then released him, there likely would’ve been controversy.

        • avatarrosignol says:

          Yeah.

          I don’t think it was apathy or laziness. I think every cop who got near this case recognized it as a blender full of poo, and they couldn’t find the lid.

  2. avatarTed Swinson says:

    It’s convenient how the pro-Zimmerman posts can dismiss all of the facts that have been reported so far in this case as a product of a biased media and therefore untrustworthy. We seem willing to trust news reports for the countless other posts where we find fault with shooters.

    I believe that if this case was not receiving national attention, TTAG would have covered it as an irresponsible gun owner of the day issue. The only thing Zimmerman did right was to STFU. He never should have got out of the car in the first place.

    “We’ve yet to hear the full story surrounding Trayvon Martin’s appearance inside Zimmerman’s gated community”

    According to everything I’ve read, Martin was staying with his Father and his father’s girlfriend, who lived inside the gated community. He didn’t “appear,” he was walking home from the 7-11 talking on the phone with his girlfriend. Zimmerman lives with his dad. Zimmerman is 28. Zimmerman has enough time on his hands to sit around in an SUV “protecting” the neighborhood and calling the cops when he sees guys like Martin.

    Given the reported facts, putting “victim” in quotes when referring to a dead kid is a jerk move. The “Bonfire of the Vanities” analogy is just about as witty as the “Look out for media firestorm if you have a legitimate DGU” angle taken last week.

    Is there really nobody who writes for TTAG who can look at what happened (reportedly of course) and say that Zimmerman appears to be in the wrong? Defending him publicly just makes pro-carry folks look bad.

    • avatarRalph says:

      Okay, Zimmerman appears to be in the wrong. And the media are ghouls who are exploiting the death of a young man to advance their own agendas.

      But saying that Zimmerman appears to be in the wrong is not the same as lynching him, which is what it seems that many would prefer. Maybe even you.

      • avatarLotus503 says:

        I agree with you Ralph and the article to a point.

        The media and every anti gun lobby in America are going to use this to further their own agenda. In most cases I would say its bullshit. However the Media attention is the only thing driving this right now and may be the only way the Martin’s end up with some justice. Had the police done their job it may have neve rmade headlines but the mishandling of the case became a big part of the story.

        This particular line “If press reports are relied on, some of his actions may have been questionable at best.”

        Shreds any ability you have to pretend no bias. It should read

        “If press reports are relied on, his actions Were horrific ending in the murder of an unarmed teenager.”

        I am all for letting this play out in the justice system, but from the 911 tapes to the known facts its pretty obvious this guys a killer.

        Just because the guy is hispanic doesnt mean it wasnt racially motivated, at best he profiled him at worst he did kill him because he was black.

        I as a middleaged white male take no solice in the fact Zimmerman wasnt %100 causcasion.

        • avatarRalph says:

          How about this: “If press reports could be relied on, they wouldn’t be press reports.

        • avatarMike OFWG says:

          I was watching Martin’s attorney (the woman) on TV, she said the 911 recording she received from the police did not contain the slurs that were on the recording she obtained from the TV station. Something is going on there.

    • avatarVigilantis says:

      I don’t write for the site, I just post comments on it regularly. I will say that Zimmerman appears to be the sort who wears his ass for a hat. The 911 operator told him not to follow the kid. He followed the kid anyway. I’d overlook ignoring the 911 operator if the kid had a weapon IN HAND and was following somebody, but by all accounts, it appears all he had in hand was a cell phone.

      Ass for a hat.

      • avatarRalph says:

        “Press reports” say that Zimmerman was bloody (his own blood) and had been on his back on the ground.

        And if mistaking a cell phone for a gun was a crime, a hundred cops would be in jail right now.

        I don’t know what happened, but I do know what’s happening. Guilty or not, Zimmerman is going down. If he’s guilty, he goddam well deserves it. If he’s not guilty, gee, that’s too bad.

        • avatarNCG says:

          “And if mistaking a cell phone for a gun was a crime, a hundred cops would be in jail right now. ”

          But that’s just the point, isn’t it? Zimmerman is not a cop. He chose to have the confrontation, whatever may have happened after that point. I think the cops get away with murder on a regular basis, as well, and I’m not okay with that, but I don’t want to extend that indemnity to every crazy guy with a gun.

  3. avatarTed Swinson says:

    “hard facts and conclusive evidence don’t seem to exist”

    This site is literally littered with stories where news accounts of incidents are given the benefit of the doubt. When you don’t like any of the facts that have been presented, they’re suddenly invalid? How did that happen?

    • avatarMichael B. says:

      Most of the DGU stories posted on here are clean cut cases of self-defense that are backed up by police investigation. The Trayvon story isn’t. We don’t have all the facts yet and the investigation’s not over.

      • avatarirock350 says:

        Why should not having the “all” of the facts stop anyone from TTAG for casting blame onto the guy with the gun? Since when has not having all of the facts of a situation stopped RF, Dan, Brad or anyone else who writes or comments on the site from casting blame in a firey editorial. I mean there is an entire 134+ part series where blame and doubt are cast with allegations of a national cover-up, and yet in this case where a man shoots an unarmed teenager after leaving his vehicle to start the confrontation, noone wants to say the guy is at fault. I have seen DGU stories on this site where the author’s blame the shooter for taking action becuase the shooter did so in a hasty way, and yet the same doesnt apply to this case? Come ‘on I smell some BS, all becuase Mr. wanna be rent-a-cop has a CHL.

        • avatarLotus503 says:

          I agree, folks posting here think my opinions need to be held to the same standard as presumption of innocence. I guess OJ didnt kill Nicole either. I dont owe the murdering bastard Zimmerman a damn thing, I am not involved with the case and can use what I know to form an opinion.

          and with all the 911 tapes, some of the known facts and some common sense its pretty clear he murdered him.

          Maybe there is some secret evidence I dont know about, if and when its presented I will use it and adjust my opinion accordingly, However if I was the police holding something back that justified my handling of the case and the crime I sure as hell would have put it out there by now.

  4. avatarSilver says:

    You’re just adding to the frenzy and hype by posting articles like this. No one wants to discuss this, they just want to argue. Everyone is set in their ways; just like most other media frenzies out there, this all has nothing to do with the actual case and everything to do with people projecting their own agendas onto it. You’ve got the blood-dancers, the race-baiters, the useful idiots, the white-guilters, the hypocrites, and in that barely visible sliver on the graph, the logical people…who also happen to be the most demonized, because they’re the killjoys who ask that everyone approach the situation from a calm, rational perspective rather than diving into their own insecurities and hypocrisy.

    • avatarihatetrees says:

      Well stated.
      Rationally discussing this story with those who have their agenda set is like trying to teach Calculus to a dog.

      • avatarRopingdown says:

        I’d rather take the “teach calculus to a dog” so long as the dog has a good background in algebra.

        • avatarRalph says:

          Integral calculus or differential calculus? I found integral calculus much more difficult to teach to my dogs. But with a little patience and some Hartz Mountain pet treats, they were able to master it.

        • avatarRopingdown says:

          A good dog can certainly differentiate at high speed. Integrate? I guess that’s where the treats come in. They know how much food they’re eating over the interval, sure. They just don’t care, so long as there’s anything left in the bowl. I miss my Chocolate Lab Nell, a junior hunter, great duck fetcher, taken by bone cancer. Best chum I ever had. Looking for another.

    • avatarCarlosT says:

      Agreed.

      Dan, this isn’t helpful. What has come out so far seems to point towards this not being a case of self defense, and that Zimmerman should be charged with some form of criminal homicide. But let’s see what comes out of the grand jury, why don’t we? They’ll have actual investigators with subpoena powers who’ll look at the actual evidence and make that call in accordance with the law.

      • avatarRalph says:

        Actually, CarlosT, it’s not helpful or unhelpful. Nothing that we say here is going to have any effect whatsoever on this case. It’s just us kicking the can.

        • avatarLotus503 says:

          Its not ambiguous people read the site and the comments, while they won’t impact the case, they will impact the people who read whats written.

          I get a demographic pulse by reading whats written here, almost like a poll I am sure I am not the only one. So people are forming opinions about you, the site operator, Guns, Guns rights by reading the words you type. You arent the ideal ambassadors either.

        • avatarRopingdown says:

          Indeed, he’s not even an actual ambassador, let alone ideal. On the other hand he often lightens the mood when people get a little too intense or miserable. I’ve decided he’s a sharp-witted curmudgeon with a peace-making angle, not an ambassador.

        • avatarRalph says:

          If you’re talking about me, all I can say is that being called a curmudgeon is the nicest thing anyone has said about me in years. Grazie mille.

        • avatarmatt says:

          Oh noes, you’ll take away our gun rights because we have a different opinion from you! I’m guessing your not a gun owner. FLAME DELETED

        • avatarLotus503 says:

          I am a gun owner and I am a 2nd amerdment advocate, try somereading comprehension.

        • avatarRalph says:

          Lotus, I’m not an ambassador and don’t want to be. As a lawyer for over thirty years, I legally tortured people until they paid me money to just go away. And in that time, I made more things change — for the good, I think — than a thousand ambassadors could change in a thousand years.

          I’m no Alan Gura, but he’s not an ambassador either. That’s the way it is. Change isn’t made by ambassadors. All they can do is perpetuate the status quo. Confrontation makes change, and nothing else.

          So I thank you for stating that I’m not an ambassador. If you had called me an ambassador, I would have been insulted.

        • avatarNCG says:

          Can we just stick with “A Gentleman and a Scholar?”

        • avatarkarlb says:

          I will give a nod to Adlai Stevens in the UN: he seemed to do pretty well for the US in the Cuban Missle Crisis.

  5. avatarJosh says:

    Treyvon Martin is no Henry Lamb. In that case, the hit and run was accidental. By everyone’s account, Mr. Zimmerman pulled the trigger on purpose. This was either justifiable self-defense or murder. We don’t know. But the non-ambiguous and violent nature of this takes it out of the realm of Bonfire of the Vanities.
    One other thing… this is real. Henry Lamb was a character dreamed up by Tom Wolfe. Martin was a living breathing human, who will never grow up, never drive, never have kids of his own… He’s gone. He can’t come back. No matter what sins he may have committed that night, its very doubtful that any of them deserved the death penalty he received. Zimmerman’s questionable judgement, in terms of his reckless disregard for the higher standards of behavior of the armed citizen, are a far cry from McCoy’s wrong turn off the freeway.
    Zimmerman will at least get the chance Treyvon didn’t. Media circus or not, he’ll get a pretty fair trial, if he even gets tried.

    • avatarRalph says:

      No, he will not get a fair trial. I’m not saying he didn’t do wrong. What I am saying is that sacrifices must be made to preserve the peace, whether he’s guilty or not.

      • avatarMichael B. says:

        I hope you’re wrong, because that’s not justice. Everyone deserves a fair trial. If the state decides to prosecute I hope his lawyer tells him to go for a bench trial because I don’t think they can find impartial jurors.

        Sad.

  6. avatarihatetrees says:

    The tone of this piece, that this incident will be a tragic mess all around, is spot on.

    The reporting levels are poor, at best, even for the degenerate anti-gun media. Overwrought emotionalism devoid of logic seems to be order of the day. Yes, Trayvon Martin was killed by Zimmerman. But “Zimmerman = Racist Executioner” as the standard theme is horribly simplistic.

    Procedural errors by cops at the scene helped blow this up to what it is. It should have been handled better. Although what info they could have got from Zimmerman, who seems to have Lawyer’ed and STF’ed Up immediately – and was injured at the time, is speculative.

    With the Feds involved, it’ll get more interesting. I think cops at the scene are being VERY careful about what they say to the feds and/or the press. Many cops consider both to be vile sub-species, so in addition to CYA incentives (for possible mistakes) they will assume investigators / reporters are not acting in good faith.

    As far as what really happened that night, we’ll probably never know. My non-lawyer, layman GUESS is that, eventually, Zimmerman will do time, with a manslaughter type conviction & sentence. I thought the same thing regarding the Diallo case in NYC – but was wrong.

    • avatarcounihan says:

      You are echoing my thoughts on the matter. This is an unfortunate tragedy, anytime a child dies it is a tragedy. As to the truth, there is only one man who knows it. And he isn’t talking. The local LEO’s should have served more diligence. Whatever the reasoning behind their lack of follow through it has lead to national spectacle, something I’m sure their CO and city officials are less than pleased about. Now Zimmerman may never get a fair shake at the judicial system. Finding an impartial jury in a racially charged case garnering national attention will be next to impossible.
      I have been avoiding commenting on these articles as they have been gathering a massive amount of outside attention. At first I thought this to be a negative due to some of the comments. Now, I think it is a positive. Generally the writing here is of an above average level, especially for an online editorial. If this site is all that the general (non-shooting) public sees as a representation of the 2A movement and the shooting sports, then I couldn’t think of a better site for them to be exposed to.

  7. avatarpair-o-dee says:

    This is going to be fun to watch. I’ll make some popcorn.

    • avatarRopingdown says:

      If you enjoy this sort of thing, like the original trial of the Rodney King cops, only worse, then this is the sort of thing you’ll enjoy. There is a chance he’ll be acquitted of the most serious charge if it goes to trial. Then you’ll get to enjoy riots, too, I suppose.

      • avatarRopingdown says:

        Still, your guess that maybe people ‘are backing the wrong horse’ may yet prove correct. I was shocked that so many called in to 911, perhaps twenty-five feet from the ongoing fight, but no one grabbed a flashlight? No one started yelling at them to stop. It actually disgusts me what I heard on the last three tapes, the self-involved pathetic cowardice, “but I wanted to help”…I just didn’t, not in any way. Call me odd.

  8. avatarmatt says:

    lol @ the million man march. If you read the article is says “So far, Maree says more than 1,000 people are planning to participate”. They have a petition on change.org too, with yet another 10 year old photo of the deceased, and the first comment is from Bettina Owens, the Aunt of the deceased:

    “trayvon was my little cousin. he was killed for no reason if it was your family you would do the same. i dont want to turn this into a black or white thing but im calling it how i see it. my family needs justice for trayvon death”

    Besides the lack of grammar, capitalization and punctuation, you can see that the family is engaged in race baiting even though Zimmerman isnt white. It gets better if you read Bettina’s profile

    “…TRAYVON MARTIN WHO WAS KILLED BY A SECURITY GUARD FOR NO REASON… THIS GUY SHOT MY COUSIN AND HAD THE NERVE TO SAY IT WAS SELF DEFENSE…NOW IF IT WAS THE OTHER WAY AROUND IF TRAYVON SHOT ZIMMERMAN HE WOULDVE BEEN IN JAIL FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE BECAUSE TRAYVON IS BLACK AND ZIMMERMAN IS WHITE.”

    And the best part
    “TELL ME HOW A BLACK KID LOOKS SUSPICIOUS?”
    lol

    And in case you want to see a current photo of Trayvon, they do exist even though the media and family would have us believe otherwise.
    http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/2012/03/17/00/08/a4DIG.St.56.jpg

    • avatarLotus503 says:

      I agree its a bit race baiting, however when you look at how the case has been handled I get why they feel that way.

      As far as pointing out Punctuation, Grammar and the like, thats something people with weak arguments do.

      • avatarmatt says:

        Regarding the grammar comment, if your calling for the POTUS to intervene and imprison a citizen for the rest of his life without due process, I would think you could put some effort in to it. This woman obviously didnt get far in school, she isnt aware of the 5th, and likely recognizes Ebonics as a real language.

        • avatarLotus503 says:

          So because she lacks education she doesnt have the right to petition for what she feels is justice?

          I agree her words defy logic, but accept its coming from an emotional place.

          I mean you have a right to point it out, but because you are intelligent and articulate, it makes you look bad when you focus on the grammar spelling and puncuation.

          I mean there was enough there without attacking her intelligence and lack of eduction.

        • avatarpair-o-dee says:

          Well said. There is good content on this site, but you have to be careful to step around the piles of cracker.

        • avatarmatt says:

          “So because she lacks education she doesnt have the right to petition for what she feels is justice?”
          She isnt calling for justice, she is calling for the POTUS to violate a citizens rights. There is a thing called due process, the POTUS isnt involved in that process.

          “I agree her words defy logic, but accept its coming from an emotional place.”
          I had my father killed due to the states negligence and my family never did anything even remotely close to what the black community is doing with this case. Look at change.org, almost 1 million people think Zimmerman is guilty and doesnt need a trial.

          “I mean there was enough there without attacking her intelligence and lack of eduction.”
          I’m still a step above her, whats worse race baiting or being a grammar nazi?

        • avatarLotus503 says:

          You dont live in reality.

          “I’m still a step above her, whats worse race baiting or being a grammar nazi?”

          thats narcissism

          Sorry aboutyour dad

        • avatarjkp says:

          “Regarding the grammar comment, if your calling for the POTUS to intervene and imprison a citizen for the rest of his life without due process, I would think you could put some effort in to it. ”

          *Cough*

          I believe you meant to say: “you’re”.

        • avatarmatt says:

          And yet a troll on a gun board making off the cuff comments puts more effort in to his work than a woman twice his age, who is petitioning the POTUS to execute/indefinitely imprison without trial, a US citizen.

        • avatarLotus503 says:

          The point is if you are going to point out peoples spelling grammar mistakes you shouldn’t make them yourself when you do it.

          Its pretty damn funny really.

  9. avatarAharon says:

    Let’s move on. I think TTAG is overdo to feature a post about knives. I miss those articles.

    • avatarCarlosT says:

      Totally. Or grilling. Or soup.

      • avatarAharon says:

        Sticky Balsamic Ribs
        Adapted from Gourmet magazine, July 2009
        Serves 4-5

        8 cloves garlic
        2 tablespoons finely chopped fresh rosemary
        1/4 cup plus 2 tablespoons packed dark brown sugar {divided}
        1/2 cup plus 2 tablespoons balsamic vinegar {divided}
        1 teaspoon cayenne pepper
        4 racks baby back pork ribs
        1 1/2 cups water {divided}

        Go to the site below for detailed instructions and pics.

        http://www.theparsleythief.com/2010/04/sticky-balsamic-ribs.html

      • avatarRalph says:

        Totally. Or grilling. Or soup.

        I have a recipe for grilled soup that you can cut with a knife.

        • avatarDon says:

          I’d (seriously) enjoy an article on making deer or elk jerky. Like what kind of dehydrator is best? How fancy do you need to get with the spices? I don’t want to spend a ton on a dehydrator. I’m not too into the kind where you have to grind everything up and squirt it out as a paste either. Like the kind of jerky that is made from cut strips is what I’m shooting for!

          -D

  10. avatarTom says:

    I really do not like that recent photos of Martin are not being used for propaganda purposes, all of the race baiting making this a White versus Black incident, not having picures of a Latino looking Zimmerman, not having reports of an injured Zimmerman, not stating that a string of break ins was accomplished by Blacks prior to the incident, stating that Zimmerman was only reporting Black Suspicous actions in a vacuum, that Zimmerman was a self appointed Vigilante Chief, having more Federal investigations due to the overwhelming petitions by Liberal Organizations.
    This is a hollow media event with only partial facts and a lot of spin propaganda pronouncing Zimmerman guilty without any real research.

    • avatarmatt says:

      But a witch hunt is so much fun.

    • avatarLotus503 says:

      What makes this appear to have racial overtones is how the police handled it. Had they arrested the guy pending investigation the race card couldnt have been played to the entent it is now. I personally think this was murder, some racial bias by the police, and profiling by Zimmerman whether or not he was killed because he was black is another issue altogether, one we will never know most likely.

      • avatarmatt says:

        The race card would still be played so the deceased relatives could profit from the event. If you look on change.org, this is the #1 petition. Is this really the most fucked up thing going on in this country right now, or is a astroturf campaign going on? Remember yesterday’s post that had 200+ comments, from people claiming to be mothers and threatening to boycott TTAG? Who the hell were those people, and if they’re real TTAG readers, why arent they in this post?

      • avatarmatt says:

        The race card would still be played so the deceased relatives could profit from the event. If you look on change.org, this is the #1 petition. Is this really the most fcuked up thing going on in this country right now, or is a astroturf campaign going on? Remember yesterday’s post that had 200+ comments, from people claiming to be mothers and threatening to boycott TTAG? Who the hell were those people, and if they’re real TTAG readers, why arent they in this post?

        • avatarLotus503 says:

          “The race card would still be played so the deceased relatives could profit from the event.”

          I have more evidence Zimmerman murdered Trayvon than you have that the race card is being played by the familiy for profit.

          In fact its disgusting to suggest it when they are grieving the loss of child.

          Unless of course you have anything other than your wild assumption thats what they are up to.

          I mean get to posting some evidence about it for the rest of us, if your going to take such an odd positon.

          On the TTAG thing I have no idea about that, I just showed up here today when I googled for some news and saw the top post.

          I agree there are people looking to profit and futher agendas because of the issue, but to suggest his family is playing the race card for money is just stupid, they just lost their child.

          Sadly we will never know if it would have been played because the cops screwed the case up from the start, brining the race element ino the mix.

        • avatarmatt says:

          “I have more evidence Zimmerman murdered Trayvon than you have that the race card is being played by the familiy for profit.”

          You have zero evidence that Zimmerman murdered Trayvon. The only people who could possibly have that evidence are the police and they havent released it. Whereas the family has acknowledged they hired an attorny (who blocked the school records), and openly stated multiple times on change.org that this was a white on black hate crime even though there isnt a white guy involved.

          “In fact its disgusting to suggest it when they are grieving the loss of child.”
          They arent grieving, they are window shopping, planning on how they’ll spend all the money from the civil suit.

          “Unless of course you have anything other than your wild assumption thats what they are up to. I mean get to posting some evidence about it for the rest of us, if your going to take such an odd positon.”
          What wild assumptions have I made. Your the one to claim to have evidence, even though the police havent released anything. Pot, kettle, black.

          “On the TTAG thing I have no idea about that, I just showed up here today when I googled for some news and saw the top post.”
          Astroturfer. Do you even own a gun?

          “I agree there are people looking to profit and futher agendas because of the issue, but to suggest his family is playing the race card for money is just stupid, they just lost their child.”
          Then why did they hire an attorney? Just wait, the civil suit will come, read up on the old articles here Mr Astroturfer.

          “Sadly we will never know if it would have been played because the cops screwed the case up from the start, brining the race element ino the mix.”
          As you can see from the change.org comments, the family was the one who brought race in to this, they’re still saying hes white even though its been proven hes latino.

        • avatarLotus503 says:

          “they hired an attorny (who blocked the school records)”

          Show some proof.

          I have Zimmerman disobeying the 911 operator, I have zimmerman getting out of his car and following the kid, I have a dead kid with skittles and tea. I have other 911 callers that say they heard the kid screming for help.

          All that is factual and really cant be disputed.

          You have your wild assumption they are trying to profit froma civil suit yet to be filed. False statements about their attorney blocking access to school records.

          He is half white half latino, so the family is half right.

          I have no idea I dont hang out on change.org

          The police and how they handled it made it a race issue.

          FLAME DELETED

  11. avatarCode Thr3 says:

    This is interesting:

    On March 16th, the Sanford police department released new details to the Orlando Sentinel. Once again, these details have been ignored or changed by the media.

    The witness reports that George Zimmerman was on the ground and Trayvon is on top of him punching him.
    The witness says that George Zimmerman was screaming and yelling for help.
    Police arrive and find Zimmerman bleeding on his face and the back of his head. He also has had grass stains on his back. All this confirms the story told by Zimmerman and the witness.
    Police play the 911 tape for Trayvon Martin’s father, who tells police that the voice screaming is not the voice of his son.

    The neighborhood this took place in has seen a lot of crime. Would you be surprised to learn that there were eight burglaries, nine thefts, and a shooting just in the past year? In fact, the local homeowners’ association reports that George Zimmerman actually caught one thief and aided in the apprehension of other criminals. The Miami Herald wrote about this on March 17th. None of the thousands of articles and cable news segments that came after thought this was important.

    In fact the Miami Herald goes on to interview neighbor Ibrahim Rashada, who is black. Rashada ​confirms that there has been a lot of crime in the neighborhood and indicates to the reporter that the perpetrators are usually black.

    The media also characterizes Trayvon as a “model student.” In fact, he was under a five day suspension when the shooting took place. That is why he was staying at a house so far from his school on a school night. A lawyer for Trayvon’s family has blocked access to his school records. However, you have to do something pretty bad to get suspended for five days.

    • avatarRalph says:

      It doesn’t matter. Right or wrong, Zimmerman is going to be sacrificed. It’s just easier that way.

      • avatarRopingdown says:

        At the retrial, perhaps. I think people forget that we’re beginning the long climb to the general election. Pieces must be moved into place. It’s tough stuff, this getting elected bit.

    • avatarLotus503 says:

      “The witness reports that George Zimmerman was on the ground and Trayvon is on top of him punching him.”

      When I googled that I got a bunch of posts from RW websites and a bunch from Stormfront.org

      Not one credible source, just a bunch of nonsesne that the media is now lying and covering up witnesses etc.

      Conspiracy theories,

      then theres this, the same person who said he was on suspension for tardiness, said all the following about him too.

      “”He was extremely creative,” said Michelle Kypriss, Trayvon’s English teacher at Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School in Miami. “He just loved building things. He really was intrigued by how things worked.”

      She described Trayvon, a junior, as an A and B student who majored in cheerfulness.

      Trayvon was under a five-day suspension when he was shot that Sunday night, but Kypriss said it was due to tardiness and not misbehavior”

      then
      “That is why he was staying at a house so far from his school on a school night. A lawyer for Trayvon’s family has blocked access to his school records.”

      Complete rubbish, how do you or anyone know either of those statements?

      I know to ignore yours posts now.

    • avatarRoger says:

      This is an excellent point.

      I have always felt that people who have a lower GPA than me should be dead, or that I should be able to shoot them.

      (above comment, of course, is sarcasm.)

    • avatarJosh says:

      He was suspended for being tardy too much to class. Its actually a typical punishment these days. He was still an A and B student with NO record of violence at all. I actually had the same problem myself growing up… I got good grades but was bored silly by my classes, so would take a little extra time in the halls. That doesn’t mean I deserve to be shot to death.
      I like how you are trying to portray the victim as a legitimate target… even if he had been a rotten kid who stole candy from babies, tagged cars with graffiti, and peed on gravestones, there was no reason for Zimmerman to pursue him like he did. Zimmerman’s aggression and bad judgement led to the confrontation in the first place, not the boy’s behavior.

  12. avatartdiinva says:

    Until now I have refrained from posting on this topic but on further reflextion I have some thoughts I would like to share. This is tough case for a prosecutor to proceed on. We only have one side of the story but here are a few observations.

    1. Zimmerman’s injuries point to a scuffle.
    2. He had polymer pistol with a full mag and empty chamber.
    3. Polymer pistols are know to have FTF when shot limp wristed.
    4. Zimmerman left his vehicle against the orders of the 911 operator.
    5.Zimmerman cannot benefit from Florida’s stand you ground law because he initiated the confrontation.

    So what could have happened?

    1. Martin sees a Hispanic looking man approach him and sees a gun. He assumes that he is being mugged and defends himself. Zimmerman now assumes he is being attacked and a struggle ensues with both Martin and Zimmerman in fear for lives. Zimmerman wins the struggle and shoots Martin.

    2. Zimmerman is telling the truth and Martin attacked him. Same story as above.

    There is no way to discern which of these scenarios actually happened. (I go with scenario 1.)

    If I were Zimmerman’s attorney I would make sure the jury is packed with as many Hispanics as possible and play this as a case of anti-Hispanic bigotry by both the white and black establishments.

    My guess is the DA will indict Zimmerman on some lesser charge and then plea bargain. If it goes to trial and the jury is properly instructed Zimmerman will be acquitted.

    Zimmerman bears the responsibility for the tragedy. He should have stayed in his vehicle and waited for the police. He learned that the first rule of a gunfight is don’t get into a gunfight.

    • avatarRalph says:

      I can agree with most of your comment except for point five. All we know is that Zimmerman followed Martin. We don’t know who initiated what.

      • avatarLotus503 says:

        Ralph I guess I take issue with that, Zimmerman getting out of the car and following Martin is in fact the intiation. He was asked not to by 911, he did it anyway and now an unarmed boy was killed.

        • avatarRalph says:

          Keeping eyes on the kid and initiating a confrontation are two very different matters. Unless you were there, you don’t know what happened any more than I do. I think that’s Dan’s point. However, unlike Dan I’m perfectly willing to sacrifice Zimmerman for the common good. Burn him.

        • avatarRopingdown says:

          It is, contrary to my ‘instincts’, entirely possible that Zimmerman followed Martin, insisted on continuing to ask him why he was in the neighborhood. Martin could well have run ahead of him in the dark and hid under a deck. Zimmerman did tell the police he’d given up on finding Martin and had turned to walk back to his car. At that point Martin could well have jumped him in fearful confusion and started beating the c__p out of him (witness the injuries). At that point, in the law, Zimmerman would not be wrong to draw and shoot in desperation. I’m not recommending this scenario as truth. I’m just saying that no one in these days of dialogue can prove or even credibly assert that this is not what happened. It IS what the police believed happened, after speaking with witnesses, hearing Zimmerman, listening to the tapes, and examining Z’s wounds, beginning with the deep wound on Zimmerman’s head. Who knows? Marchers go home. Let a Grand Jury sift the evidence. Let the FBI kibitz. I’m personally sick of the race-baiting and the racism, both. If I was god I’d make everyone look, copying Toynbee, like a WASP who’d just come back from two weeks in the Bahamas… and leave it at that. Tyvärr! I’m not god.

      • avatarpearlite says:

        Point 5 is ALL that matters here. It’s the reason Zimmerman killed a human being and the reason Martin is dead. Who did what after that fateful decision doesn’t really matter because we will never really know.

      • avatarJosh says:

        What about Martin’s right to self-defense? I think the SYG law is all about having the last word because the other guy is dead. The law is in bad need of revision and clarification when you have gang members using it to get off..

    • avatarmatt says:

      Your assuming Zimmerman brandished his weapon before firing. If you take in to account DoJ racial crime statistics, it is more likely that Martin initiated violence.

      • avatarLotus503 says:

        I am assuming based ont he 911 tapes and witness testimony.

        Zimmerman was looking for a confrontation and shot an unarmed kid. Pretty clear actually.

        DOJ crime stats? vs. Zimmermans own voice and the voice of the other 911 callers.

        You simply dont live in the same reality I live in.

      • avatarkarlb says:

        Is this mean as an ironic or satirical comment?

      • avatarJosh says:

        Yes, lets determine Trayvon’s actions that night by his skin color not his own history, personality, grades, etc that all show him to be a nice, non-violent kid. We aren’t talking about car insurance here, we’re talking about a kid’s life. Its pretty sad that you view the world through such a racial lens. I grew up attending majority black schools and have some scars to show for it, but I never, ever held the actions of a few against the entire group… Its just too unfair, and plain irrational. Stereotyping isn’t just morally wrong, its lazy thinking plain and simple.

    • avatarDon says:

      Bingo.

      And it doesn’t even matter who threw the first punch because up to the point of the encounter Martin would easily have justifiable reason to be scared and fear for his life. A strange man approaching you as if you are being hunted. (By Zimmerman’s own admission to 911, Trayvon was being hunted.)

      The media would rather talk about race, and not the unfortunate (for anti-gun agenda) reality that in this case stand your ground laws are on Trayvon’s side, and they should be. Zimmerman was the predator by his own admission during his 911 call, Trayvon was his prey.

      Race bla bla bla, Media bla bla bla, Gun Laws bla bla bla… These are all other issues which everyone wants to pile on to suit their own prejudices (some of these comments are as self serving in this regard as the media’s). Zimmerman is on tape telling a 911 operator that he is adopting the role of a predator and declaring Trayvon his prey. Stand your ground laws don’t apply to him, they apply to Trayvon.

      Alternate Endings?
      Even if Trayvon managed to disarm and kill Zimmerman, he was still the prey, Zimmerman was still the predator, and it would still be self-defense (protected by stand your ground).

      If Trayvon threw the first punch (from his screams in one of the 911 calls he was scared shi+less…) He was prey defending himself against a predator. (again, protected by stand your ground laws)

      If Trayvon pulled a weapon against Zimmerman, he’s still prey defending himself against a predator. So it’s still self-defense.

      -D

    • avatartdiinva says:

      A friend just showed me a story that said the Martin was talking to his girlfriend on his cell and told her someone was following him. Sounds like he thought he was being stalked and tried to defend himself. Of course, Zimmerman interpreted this as an attack — in other words scenario 1.
      I don’t see how you can prosecute this given that a witness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him.

  13. avatarReal Person says:

    These words cannot fully express my disappointment with TTAG over Mr. Zimmerman’s article. Until now I have been an avid, daily reader of the quality content from Robert Farago, Nick Leghorn, the Rabbi and others. Here is my brief good bye.
    As an American citizen, Trayvon Martin has the right to justice regardless of his color. It now seems clear that the youth was killed in his own family’s neighborhood. It will come out in court whether Zimmerman was acting in self defense. Right now it appears that he pursued the youth and accosted him — this based on his own 911 call. His poor judgement is evidenced in the disregard of the dispatcher’s guidance. Did his poor judgement, perhaps emboldened by being armed, lead him to start the fight with Trayvon Martin?

    It’s one thing to be pro-carry. Mr. Zimmerman comes across as pro-CRAZY.

    And just so you know the demographic of one who is no longer your reader — I happen to be a rather conservative, middle-aged, reasonably affluent, white man. Life-long hunter, shooter and NRA supporter.

    • avatarRalph says:

      We’re on your side and insist that Zimmerman be executed immediately.

      • avatarLotus503 says:

        Ridiculous, thats not what he said at all.

        • avatarmatt says:

          it is, he is on a witch hunt and decided Zimmerman is guilty without knowing any fact other than the black kid is dead.

        • avatarLotus503 says:

          You and I didnt read the same post evidently. Whats below is hardly a witch hunt.

          “It will come out in court whether Zimmerman was acting in self defense. Right now it appears that he pursued the youth and accosted him — this based on his own 911 call. His poor judgement is evidenced in the disregard of the dispatcher’s guidance. Did his poor judgement, perhaps emboldened by being armed, lead him to start the fight with Trayvon Martin?”

        • avatarRalph says:

          Does it matter what really happened? Zimmerman is an inconvenience now and he has to go away.

        • avatarNCG says:

          Pragmatically speaking, Ralph, you’re right, it doesn’t matter. But it does matter. It sucks that no matter what happens, nothing like justice will occur, or can occur. I guess your years of lawyering make you cynical, and you’re probably right, but for us pleebes, the whole thing is sort of a bummer.

    • avatarLotus503 says:

      well said!

  14. avatarJames says:

    Reprinted from Examiner.com:
    Last weekend in the city of Chicago alone, gangbangers slaughtered ten people and wounded another forty. The youngest fatality is only six years old. The youngest person wounded is only one-year-old. Many of the victim were pedestrians sprayed with bullets in drive by shootings. The national news has said nothing about this.

    So why does one shooting in Florida warrant weeks of national news? Why has there been thousands of articles a day, for the last four days, about one single shooting?

    Almost all of the news items about George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin contains a combination of false statements, opinions presented as facts, transparent distortions, and a complete absence of some of the most relevant details. Almost all news items are written soley from the point of view of the grieving family. The media also fills their articles with outdated baby-faced pictures of Trayvon. Very few include that he was a towering 6’2” football player. Is the media really reporting the news, or is this classic agitation/propaganda to advance a political agenda.

    Literally thousands of articles contain at least one false statement in the first couple of lines. They usually read “George ZImmerman, a white man,” or “shoot by a white man.” Zimmerman is described by family as a multiracial Hispanic. His appearance is clearly that of a Latino/Mestizo individual. However, the media wants him to be white because that better fits the political narrative they are trying to artificially create. Many news articles have also claimed the neighborhood is “mostly white.” This is also a lie. The neighborhood is only 49% white. It is over half non-white.

    All the way back on February 27th, the local Orlando Fox station interviewed the witness who dialed 911. Almost none of the thousands of articles since have mentioned any of the details described by the witness. Some, however, have attributed false statements to this witness. On March 16th, the Sanford police department released new details to the Orlando Sentinel. Once again, these details have been ignored or changed by the media.

    The witness reports that George Zimmerman was on the ground and Trayvon is on top of him punching him.
    The witness says that George Zimmerman was screaming and yelling for help.
    Police arrive and find Zimmerman bleeding on his face and the back of his head. He also has had grass stains on his back. All this confirms the story told by Zimmerman and the witness.
    Police play the 911 tape for Trayvon Martin’s father, who tells police that the voice screaming is not the voice of his son.

    The neighborhood this took place in has seen a lot of crime. Would you be surprised to learn that there were eight burglaries, nine thefts, and a shooting just in the past year? In fact, the local homeowners’ association reports that George Zimmerman actually caught one thief and aided in the apprehension of other criminals. The Miami Herald wrote about this on March 17th. None of the thousands of articles and cable news segments that came after, thought this was important.

    In fact the Miami Herald goes on to interview neighbor, Ibrahim Rashada, who is black. Rashada ​confirms that there has been a lot of crime in the neighborhood and indicates to the reporter that the perpetrators are usually black.

    The media also characterizes Trayvon as a “model student.” In fact, he under a five day suspension when the shooting took place. That is why he was staying at a house so far from his school on a school night. A laywer for Trayvon’s family has blocked access to his school records. However, you have to do something pretty bad to get suspended for five days.

    Now that you know the suppressed facts of the case, you can for form a better more balanced opinion. Maybe you still think Zimmerman was wrong to pull the trigger. However, I think you will come to the conclusion that the “mainstream” clearly is pushing an agenda. Even when they have to grossly alter and adjust a story to fit that agenda.

    • avatarmatt says:

      I disregard your facts and substitute my own. Burn the witch!

      • avatarLotus503 says:

        His post has some facts most of which are not contained int he last half, which are actual mistruths and outright lies.

        Media suppression my ass, those leeches dont care which way this goes as long as they get to cover it. Suppresion HAHAHAHA

    • avatarLotus503 says:

      Your quoted statements debunked above, already been posted already showed its garbage.

      I do agree media and others are using this to further agendas, however we still have the 911 calls he was still an 17 year old unarmed teenager.

      The cops still botched the thing starting the media frenzy. In Chi town they arent claiming some systemic injustice as awful as it was. So its just more homicides. This case gained attention because of the police mishandling.

  15. avatarTTACFTW says:

    FLAME DELETEd

    The defense so many people here (but not all, I admit) are giving the mall ninja fruitcake is beyond comprehension, it really is. I support gun ownership, but frankly many here are poster children for why they should be banned.

    The VERY best case I can see for the mall ninja was that he got in way over his head (despite MANY opportunities not to engage in confrontation) and he was getting his ass kicked so hard he had to shoot to defend himself. The point is though that HE was the one who initiated this whole situation at every. single. point. All that child did to initiate his own homicide was walk home to his house while black. Honestly, the only whackjob justification left to be covered by Zimmerman’s supporters here is that the child got so hopped up on skittles he went crazy, Reefer Madness style – and I fully expect somebody to postulate that in the next day or two.

    Maybe, and I mean maybe, if the jury is full of generosity Zimmerman could get away with the murder charge but he needs to go away for a very long time even then.

    FLAME DELETED (please ping guntruth@me.com to discuss TTAG’s editorial stance or style)

    • avatarRalph says:

      I’m stunned to find that I worship police. Listen, fella — I’m a lawyer. Lawyers and cops get along like cobras and mongoose. Or mongeese. I’m ot sure of what the plural of mongoose might be. FLAME DELETED

      • avatarTTACFTW says:

        Wow, I must have missed the part where I put “Dear Ralph, I am writing this post about you”.

        Oh no, I didn’t miss it, because it wasn’t there.

        But hey, feel free to dismiss everything I wrote and personally insult me, that’s fine. Also feel free to sit at home fondling yourself while you wonder whether 2 or 3 backup weapons are necessary for tactical television viewing at home behind locked doors and barred windows in your upscale gated community!

        • avatarRopingdown says:

          Everything you wrote, to be fair, consisted of this: You don’t approve of a site that allows people to express diverse views on whether or not it was an error for the PD to not arrest Zimmerman. I have generally taken the view that a more thorough forensic study should have been conducted, because, if nothing else, of the visuals. About three pages above this comment I made one beginning “it is, against my ‘instincts’…” That is the other side from what you may strongly conclude, and what my ‘gut’ tells me, but which is a view not without merit based on the source of the first injury and the interviews with witnesses. It is what the PD came to believe that night. The site has every sort of gun-interested person (and some not so interested). I have spent years arranging RE and trust litigation in various countries. As a PA attorney I neither love nor hate police. (I can say the same of journalists. It depends which ones.) RF provides, in his way, a mix of interesting reviews of “stuff” and controversial posts to draw out dialogue. Sometimes that dialogue is heated, occasionally even offensive. Your last few lines would fall into that category, no? Nothing is won or lost on this site. It is simply a place for discussion. A number of those submitting comments are policemen. A number despise or distrust policemen. They talk. You should be able to handle that. Presume nothing about the people who wrote particular comments. Just say your piece. Fair?

        • avatarMatt in FL says:

          Ropingdown: You are far too reasonable, and your comments are not welcome here.

        • avatarRopingdown says:

          Laugh. But I am sincere.

        • avatarTTACFTW says:

          I specifically went out of my way not to tar everybody with the same brush, but you only have to look down the page a little to see “matt”‘s reply to my post for an example of what I’m talking about. I don’t know if that is the same as “Matt from FL” who also replied, but that is not the sig I am talking about, just “matt”.

          You seem like a reasonable man, so do several others here. But I’ve read all the comments and there are a great many who are not. I appreciate this is a free forum, and you know what – credit to them for allowing un-moderated posts with no log in. But like they say…if you gaze too long into the abyss. Stormfront probably has a free forum too (“matt” can probably correct me on that), but it doesn’t mean I want to spend time there or agree with what’s being said.

          I have been lurking here for months, been following Farago since the TTAC days, and I have enjoyed a lot of the content – I have recently moved to an area where I can own a gun and will soon be purchasing my first. I appreciate the reviews, and most of the commentary. When threads like some of the recent ones are allowed to run unchecked (and are actively baited IMO) though, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Just saying.

        • avatarMatt in FL says:

          Different people, I assure you.

        • avatarRopingdown says:

          I can understand that. I have my differences with people. (Matt and Matt in Fl are different people.) I would even agree that there is some baiting permitted, though you only have to read my responses to MikeB302000 back a few pages (“Mike Says I’m a Gun Nut” Post or whatever) to see that my patience with that is not great. It is VERY true that, as Nietzsche said “If you stare long enough into the abyss, beware. The abyss will stare into you.” On a lighter note, the same is true of a Ferrari Enzo, and it can ruin you if it happens. Enjoy learning to use your gun accurately, safely, and safely. Laugh. The laws obviously matter, and should be read. Depending on your state, they’re usually available on the internet. Don’t kid yourself about safe storage. Just do it. Once you settle habits with a defensive gun, you don’t need to make it a hobby. I agree with Churchill: “A gentleman very rarely needs a pistol. But when he needs one, he needs it very very badly.” We have to settle our own perspective on defensives, which depend on our actual life, yes? The lives of people here vary a great deal, and so opinions do as well, and the extent of their involvement. Fine. “Live long and prosper.”

    • avatarmatt says:

      ‘The defense so many people here (but not all, I admit) are giving the mall ninja fruitcake is beyond comprehension…”
      We don’t need any due process, burn the witch!

      “I support gun ownership, but frankly many here are poster children for why they should be banned.”
      You don’t agree with someones political views, so you think they shouldn’t be allowed to own arms. I don’t think MikeB uses sock puppets, so you must be new here.

      “[Zimmerman] was getting his ass kicked so hard he had to shoot to defend himself… All that child did to initiate his own homicide was walk home to his house while black…”
      So blacks get to assault anyone they want? Initiating violence wouldnt give another cause to defend themselves? Zimmerman had a gun and was alone, it isnt likely he would have started a fist fight. If Zimmerman was trying to initiate violence, it is likely he would have drawn his gun, and unless Martin is retarded, he wouldnt have tried to win a gunfight with fists.

      “I now return you to your regular programming of… policeman worship.”
      You really must be new here if you think TTAG engages in police worship.

      • avatarTTACFTW says:

        So much wrong in one post it’s hard to know where to start.

        “We don’t need any due process, burn the witch!”

        Do you mean due process like when you’ve just killed a CHILD you are taken in for questioning, given toxicology/blood tests, and the scene is carefully documented and recorded? Or do you mean due process where the good ol’ boy PD turn up, see another n**ger dead, take you at your word that it was self defence and let you walk away?

        “You don’t agree with someones political views, so you think they shouldn’t be allowed to own arms”

        I never said that. Try reading what I actually wrote, rather than making a strawman.

        “So blacks get to assault anyone they want?”

        Again, WTF? Where on earth did you get the idea I am saying that? You say more about your own insecurities and bias with that reply than anything else.

        But let’s run with this anyway – if somebody much bigger than you, at night, is stalking you in his SUV, then approaches you, armed, and starts aggressively getting in your face, blocking your path and being generally threatening without showing you a badge what would you do? Turn over and ask for a tummy rub?

        • avatarmatt says:

          “I never said that. Try reading what I actually wrote, rather than making a strawman.”
          Read your own comments, I quoted them for your convenience. FLAME DELETED

          “Again, WTF? Where on earth did you get the idea I am saying that? You say more about your own insecurities and bias with that reply than anything else.”
          Again, read the quotes I provide. You said Martin did nothing to initate the fight, even though you acknowledged that Martin was assaulting Zimmerman. In case you forgot, read the quotes I provided in the previous post.

          “But let’s run with this anyway – if somebody much bigger than you…”
          Martin was reported in the media as being 6’3″, unless Zimmerman is a giant, he isnt “much bigger than [Martin]“.

          “is stalking you in his SUV,”
          You mean in a SUV on private property.

          “then approaches you, armed,”
          his weapon was concealed, Martin didnt know Zimmerman was armed

          “and starts aggressively getting in your face, blocking your path and being generally threatening without showing you a badge what would you do?”
          Martin was on private property, property owners have a right to do that, especially in Florida. And you seem to be think for some reason that “questioning” is synonymous with “threatening”, I can assure you that whatever your Ebonics teacher taught you is wrong.

          “Turn over and ask for a tummy rub?”
          You tell them who your there to see, and explain why your jumping fences and in general acting suspicious.

          But then again, fcuk due process, lets burn a witch!

        • avatarTTACFTW says:

          “Would you prefer I write it in Ebonics?”

          Wow. Just wow.

          “You said Martin did nothing to initate the fight, even though you acknowledged that Martin was assaulting Zimmerman”

          Um, you do realize that Martin could have done nothing to initiate the fight and still at one point be assaulting Zimmerman, right? They aren’t mutually exclusive. In fact, in would be what’s known as “self defense” if Zimmerman initiated the fight.

          “Martin was on private property, property owners have a right to do that, especially in Florida.”

          Except he didn’t own the property, did he? He was a self appointed community Rambo, unsanctioned by either the community or the

          FLAME DELETED

        • avatarRopingdown says:

          TTACWTF: You’ll note that Martin did not know Zimmerman was armed as he asked the questions. I’ve written elsewhere on this site that if someone behaved in my neighborhood as Zimmerman did, I’d actually have my hand on my pistol (or pepper spray, depends) and tell him to back off. Here we ask questions FROM the car. We don’t hop out. Period. But you must understand that behind some of the fog of what you have read here, that there was an interval of time between the conversation (as reported by the girlfriend who was on the cell with Martin) and the fight which broke out behind the townhouses. There are still testimonial ambiguities which suggest that Martin resumed the conflict. We don’t know which. I agree with your point that forensics should have been much more thoroughly conducted that night, and the area much more thoroughly searched. Zimmerman should have been asked to voluntarily provide blood, if nothing else. These questions will come up, and presumably there will be a competent attorney assisting the Martin family, Zimmerman, and one leading the grand jury. If you would, try to see the fear that relentless crime has instilled in many people. It is not baseless, though it may not be expressed with the eloquence or filter of taboo that you would wish. We have all been failed not only, perhaps, by the police, but above all by the residents who cowed in fear, rather than going onto their deck with their cell phone camera or a flashlight and taking a small risk to bear witness, whatever was happening. Just my take on life.

  16. avatarChase says:

    Story is manufactured by the MSM.

    Dude isn’t even white. He quite obviously is Hispanic.

    • avatarNCG says:

      And goodness knows, there is no racism among hispanics targeted at blacks. Or vice versa. Or from any race to any other. Golly gee, no.

      • avatarDerek says:

        Apparently not according to the media. The moment it was acknowledged he wasn’t white, the racism/hate crime schtick was dropped like a sack of potatoes.

        • avatarDerek says:

          Apparently only whites are capable of racism. In fact I remember some talking head, on w/e show comes on before Kelly, saying something along the lines of “well it came out that he’s Hispanic and comes from a line of minorities so obviously it’s not racially motivated…”

        • avatarAharon says:

          Derek,

          The loonies used to say (probably still do) that reverse-discrimination (minority against majority) is impossible in a white heterosexual male dominated culture.

  17. avatarRoger says:

    So how is it ‘race baiting’ in this case to bring up the race issue, when Zimmerman _himself_ brought up race? His 911 call included the statement “these people get away with everything.”

    These people? Most likely this means someone of Trayvon’s particular race.

    The only other groups that he could have assigned Trayvon to were teenagers (apparently a debatable point, according to all of the young Trayvon vs ‘scary adult looking Trayvon’ picture posts above), people who wear hoodies, or people who carry bags of Skittles.

    So doesn’t that suggest that zimmerman’s actions were racially motivated?

    This seems more plausible to me than the story that Zimmerman felt threatened by a Skittles- wielding teenager.

    And this is not even considering the evidence that Zimmerman can be heard using a racial epithet on the 911 recording to describe Trayvon.

    • avatarmatt says:

      Its race baiting if you read what the family says on change.org. Zimmerman is hispanic, but his family keeps on bringing this up as a white on black hate crime. Bettina Owens, the aunt (or cousin, she says both) of the deceased said this on their petition:

      “trayvon was my little cousin. he was killed for no reason if it was your family you would do the same. i dont want to turn this into a black or white thing but im calling it how i see it. my family needs justice for trayvon death”
      http://www.change.org/petitions/prosecute-the-killer-of-our-son-17-year-old-trayvon-martin

      And in her profile:
      “NOW IF IT WAS THE OTHER WAY AROUND IF TRAYVON SHOT ZIMMERMAN HE WOULDVE BEEN IN JAIL FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE BECAUSE TRAYVON IS BLACK AND ZIMMERMAN IS WHITE.”
      http://www.change.org/members/13061001

      And it doesnt sound like “coons”, it sounds like “punks”.
      http://z6mag.com/featured/trayvon-martin-case-fueled-by-uncensored-911-call-audio-release-listen-166700.html

      • avatarLotus503 says:

        He is half white half hispanic, His familysays he self identifies as hispanic.

        I dont see the issue as one of race really, I see it as RentACop Murders unarmed teen.

        With how the police handled the case I can see how the Family sees it as race playing a part.

      • avatarRoger says:

        Going back to my original point.

        Also, going back in time:

        before Trayvon’s family made any inflammatory statements on any websites that you,I , or Zimmerman could read, Zimmerman himself made an assumption about “these people” that resulted in him trailing an unarmed teenager and that unarmed teenager’s subsequent death.

        So, again, what did he mean by ” these people”?

        And although you are sure he did not use an epithet, the FBI apparently is not.

  18. avatarAharon says:

    I’m Not taking sides on the question of who is right and wrong, and who did what and did not do xyz. I have no idea. As imperfect, unknowing, and unbalanced related posts and comments are here at TTAG about this story, I do appreciate that this site is more neutral than the Marxist mass media and yet not going near to the far rightwing sites.

    As a Men’s Rights Activist (MRA), I do recall how the mass media, academia, the anti-white male groups, the feminists, and others immediately and for a long time called the Duke University Rugby Players guilty when accused of raping Crsytal Magnum the black stripper. As an MRA, I am aware of far too many false accusations which have been pre-tried in the Public Media Courtroom only to later turn out otherwise. BTW, Crystal who was never charged for filing a false report, murdered her boyfriend about a year ago.

    • avatarNCG says:

      Please define Marxism, and tell me how that relates to the mass media. Best I can tell, they’re all about the money. I don’t like them either, but I’m not getting the Marxist complaint.

      The Duke thing is a case where the system worked. A woman accused drunken macho frat boy types of sexual assault at a party, sounds pretty plausible. Investigation ensued, turned out it wasn’t true, boys exonerated, though they suffered a fair ammount, for sure, and maybe she should have been charged with something.

      Some black (and white, but mostly not) guys accused of rape/murders have been exonerated by DNA evidence, often after decades in prison.

      Most women who are raped or assaulted don’t report it, because there are seldom witnesses, and it comes down to a he said, she said, always a loser in court, and the woman is put on trial. I know at least a couple of women who have been violently sexually assaulted, and chose not to report it. One of those women is my mother, who was sexually assaulted by Houston Police officers back in the early 80s when she was pulled over for no reason. She got away unscathed, but who would she report it too?

      The number of rapes that go uninvestigated/unprosecuted far, far exceed the number of false rape convictions. Rape is a very hard crime to prove, again because there are usually no witnesses.

      Strangely, with the Zimmerman/Martin case, we have a similar scenario.

      • avatarAharon says:

        NCG,

        I used Marxism in a general sense and it wasn’t a perfect or good fit. IMO, the mass media is about profits yet they also still preach, embellish, and subjectively report their stories. I often find the mass media very PC and to have a progressive political agenda. The terms ‘corporatism’ or ‘fascism’ are probably more accurate to define the mass media. Possibly ‘mercantilism’ might be applied also to some degree.

        Sounds plausible to you. Not me. Maybe she should have been charged for filing a false rape report that almost sent the innocent men to prison for possibly decades? I do not agree. Equality is also about holding both sexes to the same standards of legal accountability. If she had been in prison her now dead boyfriend would be alive. The young Duke men suffered tremendously in reputation, stress/emotionally, and financially. Many people believe an accusation of rape means guilt and that the Duke men beat the system.

        Women report rapes even when no rape has occurred or could have occurred (the man had been out of the country for months, the place where it occurred had been flooded under several feet of water for weeks, etc). Sometimes, not being personally involved, the stories are so farfetched that they are almost funny. There is no way of knowing how many women do not report rape. Unlike say fifty years ago, now the attitude is often that a man accused is guilty until proven innocent. Not having witnesses these days is no longer some steel wall to prevent the reporting of a rape. Some accusers seem to relish the attention they get from people after making their report. Police, like others who are politically connected and/or super rich are often protected by the establishment when accused of rape. Sorry to learn about your mom.

        What study or factual evidence are you basing the claim on “that the number of rapes that go uninvestigated/unprosecuted far, far exceed the number of false rape convictions”? Over the decades the definition of rape has changed and continues to do so. You’ve probably read my earlier comments at this site how now the CDC defines a rape if the woman and man (even married) are both drunk and she can’t give “consent” even if she suggested the sex.

        Despite our political and sociological ideological differences which are vast, I think you’re an honorable man and wish you well.

  19. avatarNCG says:

    Dan, as I recall, that was a great book. It’s never simple.

    • Which was kinda my point.

    • avatarpearlite says:

      Everyone is missing the point here. It is very simple. No literary comparisons should be drawn unless the you want to muddy the water even further than it already is and will be by the media and media whores. None of which really matters. Zimmerman left his car (armed with a 9mm) and someone ended up dead. He Broke the #1 rule. To the “armed intelligentsia” that should be the only thing that matters. If you want to stay out of jail, anyways.

  20. avatarLeo Atrox says:

    I AM SO ANGRY. EVERYONE IS STUPID. CAN’T THEY SEE THE TRUTH? I’M NOT POSTING HERE ANYMORE!!! THERE IS A BOY DEAD, AND A MAN SHOT HIM! IT IS CLEARLY … Man, I just can’t go on. All this yelling is hurting my fingers. I tried to join in to y’all’s ongoing “discussion,” but it makes my head hurt and just isn’t that interesting. I know, the kid is dead. The guy who killed him is an idiot. Maybe he’s criminally stupid; maybe not. I’m not paying attention to media reports, because–and I don’t mean to belittle Trayvon here–it just dosn’t matter that much. It’s a drop in the bucket. A blip on the radar. A candle in the wind. It’s here now and everyone is fired up, but it’s going to be forgotten next month. Moving on!

    • avatarLeo Atrox says:

      And I really don’t mean to belittle Trayvon. It’s just that there are so many bigger issues to spend my brain cells thinking about; and so many more personal issues. I’m not going to get lost in this Martin/Zimmerman mess. There are a slew of government agencies that are going to straighten it out, and maybe get some justice for one of the two, or both. This just isn’t worth my emotional investment.

  21. avatarMatt in FL says:

    Just a little update from my neck of the woods…

    Last night 3 of 5 Sanford City Commissioners voted “no confidence” against Police Chief Billy Lee, with one demanding for his resignation outright. The two who did not cast no confidence votes said they thought the vote was a knee-jerk reaction to the situation. It’s now up to the city manager to decide whether to let Lee go.

    The Rabblerouser, oops, I mean Reverend Al Sharpton will be holding a rally tonight; the venue has been moved from a local church to a local city park, “due to an overwhelming response, according to a tweet from Al Sharpton.”

    Sanford’s mayor said he is expecting as many as 20,000 people to gather at the park to rally for justice in the death of Martin.

    However, an organizer of the event said he’s not expecting a crowd that large.

    “We were anticipating initially that 2,000 people would roughly be in attendance,” said Dr. L. Ronald Durham.

    More than 200 people, including an Atlanta city council member, are on their way from a church in southeast Atlanta to attend.

    Source 1
    Source 2

  22. avatargordon burkholder says:

    Dan, we don’t need any more flames here.

    The kid is a victim until proven otherwise, just like Zimmerman is innocent until proven otherwise. To call the dead teenager a “victim”, in quotations, is insulting.

    A teenager is pursued by a guy who is packing heat and has a criminal record. The shooter was advised to not pursue to teenager. Shooter had called 911 a few DOZEN times in the previous calendar year. Shooter claims self-defense. Shooter was not arrested. Shooter had injuries – but perhaps because the teenager was freaked out by the guy who was FOLLOWING him. Duh.

    Apparently that’s Florida law. I’m not saying that the cops didn’t follow the law – I’m just saying that’s a pretty freaky law if they can’t arrest a guy after a fatal shooting.

    Here in Philly, if you are SEEN with a weapon, you will be questioned and probably arrested.

    The idea that someone can go free after KILLING someone is ludicrous. I’m protesting the law.

    You know better, Dan. As someone who has a 9mm on my hip, shame on you for posting this on a gun blog.

    • avatarAshram says:

      “Apparently that’s Florida law. I’m not saying that the cops didn’t follow the law – I’m just saying that’s a pretty freaky law if they can’t arrest a guy after a fatal shooting.”

      So, if a homeowner were to shoot and kill an intruder in the middle of the night, the homeowner should be arrested?

      As for Mr. Zimmerman, he was likely not taken into custody because the crime scene initially did not reveal anything beyond a self-defense shooting, correlating to Mr. Zimmerman’s claims. On top of that, there were no witnesses that could firmly establish wrongdoing. If it seems apparent that no law was broken, the police have no authority to arrest anyone.

      However, let the evidence be gathered and processed by the authorities and, if the DA believes there is a case for prosecution, such as the 911 recording and transcripts of the incident as it unfolded, then a warrant will be made and Mr. Zimmerman will be arrested and put on trial.

      If the evidence indicates that Mr. Zimmerman acted as the aggressor, including pursuring and killing a person who was in retreat, then “stand your ground” will not be any kind of defense because it would be established that Mr. Zimmerman was not reasonable in his assumption that his life was in danger, so his use of lethal force would most likely be found as unlawful.

      He would most likely be charged with manslaughter at the least, 2nd degree murder at the most (1st degree is premeditated murder, which this killing does not appear to be; if Mr. Zimmerman killed unlawfully, it was under passion rather than planned with malice aforethought).

      The purpose of “stand your ground” is that, if it’s been established that your use of lethal force was legally justified according to the legal system and, thus, free of criminal liability, your decision cannot be second-guessed in a civil suit.

  23. avatarErnest Gibson says:

    As a democrat who also believes in the second amendment and the rule of law I find Dan Zimmerman’s analysis a wholly biased, ignorant and as inflammatory as those he cites community activist as creating in the public sphere. First until proven otherwise the victim a 17 yr old kid walking through a neighborhood is dead. Second he is dead because an over zealous individual decided to take the law into his own hands. Had the shooter performed the duties of a neighborhood watch person san the weapon he had and sans the belief voice by him on tape that “they always get away” and let the cops come and do thier job the incident would probably not have occured. His actions if anything led up to this tragedy because he took it upon himself to do a job he is neither trained to do. We unfortunatly will not be able to get the whole story as of the two who were involved one is dead. No one however should be so quick as to pass judgement as DZ appears to be on a VICTIM who it has been reported had no criminal history violent or otherwise. I wish the same could be said for the shooter, who gives everyone of us who believe in the right to bear arms and self protection a bad name.

  24. avatarJB says:

    Not trying to justify the shooting at all… but… just what WAS Martin doing inside the gated community if he didn’t live there??? I know in the gated communities near where I live, if you don’t have the entry sticker, you don’t get in unless the person you’re going to see tells the guards they’re expecting you.

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