I’ve been experimenting with a Bladetech 5.11 retention holster for our T&E (Testing and Evaluation) Gen4 Glock 19. When I told Eddie at AFS that I was carrying the Mass-compliant 10-round 9mm G19 in the new holster, he freaked me right the f’ out. “Robert do me a favor,” he said. “Will all your guns to me. You’re gonna use the 19 and you’re gonna get yourself killed.” First, I was startled to hear that it’s only a matter of time before I use my gun to defend my life. Second, I thought it was all about shot placement. Nine millimeter vs. 45; is it really that big a deal? I called the rabbi. He went all empirical on me. “Here’s what you do . . .”
“Shoot both guns as fast as you can. To the point where you’re not running the gun; the gun’s running you. Then compare the groups.”
I ran a MA-compliant mag through both Glocks at five yards as fast as I possibly could, sight picture be damned. In my defense (so to speak), I haven’t been to the range in well over a week. And the light was bad. And . . . I missed the paper with BOTH guns two times out of ten.
Shooting the 9mm G19, I hollowed-out a 6.5″ group. Shooting the .45-caliber G30SF, I perforated the paper with a 6.5″ group. As the Brits would say, it was six of one, half a dozen of the other. In terms of accuracy, there was nothing in it.
Which means I might as well carry the .45-caliber G30SF to gain the advantages of larger bullet size (bigger holes) and lack of penetration (slower bullet). Remembering that the Bay State restricts me to 10-round magazines (anything more instantly makes me a dangerous criminal), so I can’t use/carry/think about the G19′s 15-round mag.
Obviously, your mileage may vary. But it’s well worth considering moving up to a .45 if there’s no trade-off in combat (i.e. Minute of Bad Guy) accuracy. Meanwhile, it’s back to the range. Two rounds off-target at five yards is two too many for me, even when firing as if I’d forgotten everything I learned about slowing down and aiming.
After reading this test, I just went into the range and did it myself.
My results were NOT the same as that at all. I can group a lot better with my GLOCK 17 than I can with the ranges sample GLOCK 21.
And to everyone who preaches the idea that “You wont need more than 3 (Or what ever) shots, the rest dont count” let me ask you a question. Why dont you just go ahead and carry 4 rounds in your magazine? You never know. Ammo can be really usefull.
Awesome! Glad to see the drill was useful. Now you know that the 17 is better for you!
No one who has been in a gunfight has ever commented that they wished they had less ammo!
Good. You now know that you are carrying what is most likely the best pistol for you. That, and the skills to use it, are more important than the number printed on the casing.
Once upon a time, I was at the range, refreshing my CCW skills, I got some unsolicited “advice” about how my little Ruger LCR loaded with .38 Spl +P Gold Dot was all but going to bouce off the crack head I might use it against. It was put upon me that “real men” carry .45′s, and that a Glock 21 was was I needed. So after about 5 min of being told that I was practically unarmed. I quietly replied “well, I find the size of my penis to be adequate, and so feel completely comfortable defending myself with a .38.” This guy flipped the fudge out, to the point where the range master tossed him out, less he tried to shoot me.
Big +1 for saying what alot of us were thinking when we had a caliber queen give us the spiel…
I have never heart the term “caliber queen” before but I like it!
So you equate firearm caliber with penis size. Fascinating.
“Which means I might as well carry the .45-caliber G30SF to gain the advantages of larger bullet size (bigger holes) and lack of penetration (slower bullet).”
Except that isn’t the extent of it. 9mm is cheaper. Cheaper ammo = more practice time. More practice time (assuming you’re practicing the right things, of course,) means better shot placement.
(Leastways, that’s my mileage on this. Yours may not be the same.)
True, but things my life depend on are not areas that I like to cut cost on. To your point, maybe a .40 caliber and also a 9mm barrel for range time would be a good compromise for someone who wants more than a 9mm, but is on a tight budget. That way you are still practicing with the same gun.
I prefer to practice as I play. And I haven’t had many volunteers to stand at the business end of a 9mm or .40 cal. pistol. Again, YMMV.
Whoa. It looks like Robert unloaded ten shots from the 9mm but only nine shots from the .45. So his hit ratio was actually better with the .45 (8/9) than with the 9mm (8/10).
I don’t have a stopwatch so I couldn’t time the sequences.
He also shoots the G30SF all the time.
Hand timed at 2.5sec for 10 shots on the G19 (0.25sec/shot), and 2.27sec for 9 shots on the G30 (0.25 sec/shot). Call it a draw. I am decently impressed by both the speed and control on the G30. Must be his massively developed forearms!
Who knew we’d micro-analyze the video. It is a very interesting experiment and thanks to Rabbi for suggesting it.
Now try a 29. You know, for science.
+1
One upon a time, I was at the range doing some CCW practice with my Ruger LCR. Just then, the tacticool gentlemen next to me butted in with some unsolicited advice. I was told at great length why my LCR was worthless, my .38 Spl +P would all but bounce off the crack heat I might use them against, and how “real men” use a .45 ACP. It was pressed upon me that I could solve all that was wrong with my obviously flawed character if I just bought and carried a Glock 21. After a solid 5 min of this particular nonsense, I quietly and calmly replied with: “I feel the size of my penis is entirely adequate and therefore have no problem defending myself with a .38.” The tacticool gentleman proceeded to flip the fudge out, and pitched such a hissy fit, he was tossed off the range before he up and shot someone.
I was just going to read these posts for their entertainment and educational value, and then “ST” had to push my button.
This response is in no way meant to offend, nor is it a judgement of one’s skill, but….
I no longer shoot competitively, but the knowledge and learning methods are still intact.
If you want to learn how to shoot fast, you have to practice shooting fast.
Slow fire practice won’t translate into faster fire when you want to.
Simply if you want to play in the “Big Leagues” you can’t practice “T-ball”.
I was being mentored by a friend that’s an ISPC Grand Master, and if you haven’t seen one of these guys shoot, you won’t believe how good they are.
He would shoot sub-seven second, 10 shot groups, that were well under 2″ @ 25 yards as AIMED FIRE.
In 2005 I shot 32,000 practice rounds, and 25% of that was almost as fast as I could pull the trigger. My aimed fire became 10 – 12 seconds for a 10 shot string, and was about as good as I could shoot.
That was 200 – 300 rounds at a time, 3 or 4 times a week.
If you practice slow, speeding up will only make you miss faster.
High round count practice is exactly how you learn to shoot fast.
Good article. Good advice. Crappy state.
I’ve personally found the Glock 36 (single stack version of the 30) to be very soft shooting for a .45 ACP. Maybe not quite 9mm soft, but almost. So I’m not surprised by the outcome of the experiment in this article.
You are crazy. I’m not recoil shy at all, but the G36 is like a jackhammer in hand when firing. The G30 is way more manageable.
Questions concerning what is manageable carry little value in this debate. Shooters are of different physical and hand size, strength, and all have different hand/ eye characteristics. What is difficult for one may be comfortable and appropriate for another. Any other approach is merely for the sake of having an unproductive argument. This is particularly true when discussing consealability.
The best argument I’ve ever heard in the .45 vs. 9mm debate came from a grizzled TMCM (Master Chief Torpedoman for you wing-wipers): In a safety lecture someone asked him about 9 v. .45 and his (I *hope* joking) reply was: “The .45 is better.” When pressed for more detail he said “Because I’ve been shot with both and the .45 hurts more.”
How far away were the targets?
Five yards.
I like to carry the Glock 20SF-it absorbs the 10mm recoil very effectively.
There are 15 round and 10 round mags available-I carry interstate under HR218 and while HR218 credential holders are exempt from mag capacity and”restricted”ammo laws I’d as soon avoid problems with LEO’s who haven’t received proper training.
I figure with 10+1 rounds of 10mm,I have enough to deal with whatever comes up.
I carry either Winchester 175 gr Silvertips or Hornady 180′s.
As I shoot twice weekly going through an average of 100 rnds per session I have actually found the PERFECT firearm for me. It is compact, easily controlled at rapid fire, fits easily into my hand, and I have confidence in my skills, so that I know I will stop any attack that comes my way.
Now before I tell you learned gentlemen what it is, I will tell what it is not. Not Glock O:(, not S&W O:(, Ruger O:( (?), nope. One is a Colt, the other a Sig Sauer.
Not .45 nor 9mm O:(. What oh what could it be? Drum roll please, it is, (Are you ready for this?) the big bad .380. Thats right all you bad a_ _es! A little .380!
It is controllable in rapid fire, it fits right into my hand, I can carry extra mags discreetly, in a mini-mag light pouch, without drawing undue attention in public.
And yes it will take at least 3 rounds to put the bad guy down, but I will be on target, putting my rounds where I want them, and I can carry two of them if I want. The Sig p238, and the Colt Govt. Model are like shooting .22′s. Virtually no recoil! Unlike All the rest of the web biters out there in that caliber. They don’t kick like Walthers, Bersa, et al. Light weight, easily carried, and on target.
As I must shoot one handed they, for me, are the perfect carry piece.
Now try out the next logical step, the Glock 29sf, 10mm power with the exact same size, capacity and just .7 ounces heavier.
Likely 115gr 9mm, fast but little ‘dwell’ inside the target because of it.
Switching to 147gr 9mm (slower bullet, more dwell time) will likely provide more ‘impact’ on a selected target.
I’ve shot both of these too, though not in a deliberate test as here.
I found it took appreciably longer to get the 30 back on target & that the recoil was much sharper than that from a 1911 or the Glock 19.
I’ll admit I didn’t like the 19 either, as the Glock grip angle is all wrong for my natural point of aim.
I struggle with this decision as well. 15 rounds just sounds attractive, but there is a big controlability deference between all Glock 9mm pistols. The 17 is the best as I was surprised at the increased felt recoil of the G19 which was disappointing. The 26? FORGET IT!!!
The G30 on the other hand has almost no difference in felt recoil when comparing it to the G21. I only wish that the G30′s grip extended further like the G19. The G30 is also in a category of it’s own by being the most unique Glock; it is like a hybrid of a baby Glock and medium sized (G19/ 23), while it is definatley a medium size, with a tad more gurth, but has a baby Glock grip design. Still, even with my large hands my pinky has a good place to rest and shooting is a pleasure!
Another thing to consider as far as the 9 vs. 45 debate is that the 9mm is literally like the 357 magnum of its class compared with its 9mm predecessor variants. The 9mm parabellum is a high pressure round. It is the most popular cartridge used amongst criminals. People do die from 9mm bullets all the time.
That being said, I’m not sure whether to feed into the idea of speed and energy into a target (hydrostatic shock). Supposedly hydrostatic shock happens when a certain speed is reached when a bullet hits a target. However by not believing this one would have to forget about the 357 magnum and stick with 9mm for every purpose.
It is equally annoying to hear people emphasize “slower” when talking about the speed of a 45acp. I’m sorry but 850 feet per second is pretty fast. I wonder how much that is in miles per hour? I also wonder what would hurt more; a 90 mph baseball, or a non-fatal hit from a 45acp traveling at 850 fps that is burning hot?
Supposedly the .45 was created for a reason (Philippines), but from what I understand it wasn’t to gain performance from the 9mm, but rather a .38 caliber round. Then I think about German ingenuity and design; it just seems like they have always had a reason for what they do while also producing successful products that work well. I think the careless design and introduction of the m-16 in Vietnam is a testament to how America introduces products (it’s flawed/ not ready for use, but I can influence someone to push my idea through). Granted the m-16 family of rifles have undergone reliability overhauls year after year since its introduction (as well as a day late and a dollar short), but this one example doesn’t leave me very trusting to why things are introduced within the U.S. Anyways, the 9mm works and works well as I am sure it has had the necessary testing. It became a favorite of most of the world probably without NATO.
Having both the G30 and G19, I can tell you without any hesitation that I can hit more accurately with greater speed with the G19. Same when comparing SIGs–I’m faster and more accurate with the P229 than the P220. Granted, I like the .45 Auto better than the 9mm but when it comes to my own abilities there’s no getting around The Way Things Are. The icing on the cake is that I don’t have to comply with an ill-conceived magazine capacity limit at home.
see potsynolls above…
If you want to figure how fast a bullet is traveling you multiply it’s speed in feet per second, (fps) by 3600. to get miles per second, and divide by 5280 to get miles per hour, (mph).
During the Moro rebellion of the Philippine-American war in the early 1900′s, it was found that the issued pistols in .38 caliber were requiring multiple hits to stop the Moro warriors, and were proving to be not enough to prevent the killing of the targeted officers.
The older .45LC “Single Action Army” pistols that had been decommissioned were tried and were found to provide the “1 shot stop” that the military was looking for at that time.
The U.S. Military was looking for a replacement cartridge and through prior experience and testing on cadavers and animal remains in the Chicago stockyards, resulting in a finding that the .45 was the most effective pistol caliber.
Colt was working on a semi-auto pistol / cartridge for U.S. Military trials in .41 caliber at that time. Requests were made to develop a cartridge in .45 caliber. That cartridge became the .45ACP, (Automatic Colt Pistol).
The .45ACP was to provide a more modern cartridge that would stop a man, literally in his tracks”, at a time when suicidal attackers proved that with determination, focus, and a few seconds, they were highly effective at killing officers, often in broad daylight.
It is still well documented and respected that
1.) An average attacker at 21′, with a knife, can stab you before you draw your weapon.
2.) A .38 caliber isn’t a decisive fight stopper, and often requires multiple “center mass” hits to affect the attacker.
Note:
The .38 Special measure .357″ across and usually weigh about 158 gr and has approx. 770 fps and 208 ft/lbs of energy .
The 9mm Parabellum measures .355″ across, and usually weighs about 124 gr., and has approx. 1200 fps and 382 ft/lbs of energy.
The .45ACP measures .452″ across, weighs about 230 gr. and travels at approx. 835 fps. for 356 ft/lbs. of energy.
The M-16 was / is a better than “fairly decent” rifle, but was never designed to be shot dirty.
In their wisdom, the “old school” powers within the U.S. Military decided to make use of several hundred tons of surplus or reclaimed machine-gun powder and have it made into the standard issue ammunition distributed to the troops in Vietnam.
The M-16 was issued without cleaning or lubricating supplies, either of which would cause fouling stoppages in short order.
After perhaps tens of thousands of injuries and deaths, of soldiers with fouled, non-functioning weapons, did anyone see the light and correct those problems.
More of someone with more authority that knowledge, making decisions that cost someone else dearly.
If operated within design parameters, it works well. It just wasn’t ever designed to kill, but to wound. We don’t leave our fallen or injured behind, many of our enemies do even today.