FBI Chainsaw Oops

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TTAG’s been highlighting the militarization of the post 9/11 law enforcement community. The argument for assault cops: if you haven’t done anything wrong you have nothing to fear. The argument against assault cops: if you haven’t done anything wrong you have something to fear. The number of mistaken raids on innocent citizens may be relatively small, but it’s absolutely a problem if they come no-knocking on your door. Yes you. As a group, TTAG readers are armed against home invasions. Individually, we stand no chance against a local, state or federal SWAT team. Bring a gun to this gunfight and you’re a dead man suing. Good luck with that; if you and yours survive the special oops attack, what chance do you have getting the government out of the business of raiding first and asking questions later? Here’s hoping the debt crisis does what voters won’t: roll back America’s silent march towards a police state.

comments

  1. avatar Morseus says:

    Splendid. Gross stupidity in the line of duty, and all the lady gets is a “oops, sorry.”

  2. avatar JS III says:

    Did anyone else think “Brazil” when they first read the chainsaw story ? Incompitent cops , bloated ineffective government, failing society? Breaking into the wrong peoples homes in commando style raids? Just like the movie brazil.

    1. avatar Gabba says:

      is it stamped? i’m sorry we can’t give you a new door until you get it stamped.

  3. avatar Jawbow says:

    What happens if I was home carrying and I was getting raided by mistake?

    How would I know if it was a legit threat (“BG”) or SWAT?

    I would assume a chainsaw is a threat and at that point I’d consider that forceful entry.

    Raid team in masks; (“BG”) in masks.

    In the video, they never said if the FBI announced entry.

    1. avatar HSR47 says:

      You get shot, and the media acts like you’re the asshole.

      1. avatar Moonshine7102 says:

        Precisely. Remember, some animals are more equal than others.

    2. avatar HSR47 says:

      You get shot, and the media acts like you’re the problem.

    3. avatar Jeff says:

      What happens? Same thing that happened to Jose Guerena in Phoenix after he got back from Iraq.

      http://reason.com/blog/2011/05/16/marine-survives-two-tours-in-i

  4. avatar bontai Joe says:

    She should be “thankful” it was the FBI, because the ATF would have definitely killed the dog. I don’t know why, but ATF seems to always kill the dog.

    1. avatar Robert Farago says:

      I know, right? Ralph in 5 4 3 2 1 . . .

      1. avatar Ralph says:

        Sorry for the delay. I was feeding the cats.

  5. avatar Gerard says:

    I protest this Timberization of policing.

  6. avatar Mr. Lion says:

    Cuts? In non-military government? Maybe in a year or so…

  7. avatar Henry Bowman says:

    This is a very dangerous trend, both for us and them. As an upstanding, “law-abiding” person, there is absolutely no reason for the police to conduct a raid on my home. With that in mind, I would automatically assume that anyone breaking in is not the police. Factor in the physiological effects of stress and adrenaline leading to tunnel vision and auditory exclusion, there’s not guarantee that identifying themselves as “Police” will even be heard or their badges seen. Very dangerous, indeed.

    Given the circumstances of the story, how would any of us expect to react?

  8. avatar cz82mak says:

    No f’n excuse for this nonsense. Chainsaw coming in through the door could have resulted in a volley of slugs going out through the door. They got lucky.

    What kind of discipline will these idiots face? Any at all?

    1. avatar Jim Barrett says:

      The problem is that if they are doing a drug bust and expect the bad guy to be armed and dangerous, they are ready for some bullets to come their way. The issue is that they will then happily return fire and they are both better armed and better armored than the average citizen.

      A few years ago, I had the opportunity to observe the Boston F.B.I. team demonstrating a house clearing drill. Believe me when I tell you that there are no weapons or ammunition available to us “normal” people that would have made for an effective defense. Machismo aside, if you started shooting at the team, you and probably everyone within the same room would be dead.

      1. avatar Totenglocke says:

        I dunno, I think a Garand with AP rounds might be fairly effective, at least until you couldn’t reload fast enough.

      2. avatar Gabba says:

        gasoline waterbaloons.

        1. avatar Chris says:

          I demand to see footage of “gasoline waterballoons”

  9. avatar JS III says:

    Look at Ruby Ridge, one of the worst run LE operations until perhaps fast and furious. Besides a few slaps on the wrist nothing happened, all because some federal officers wanted to play commando. One LEO dead, one young boy dead and one innocent woman dead. All totally avoidable. The FBI, ATF and to a lesser extent DEA all have a history of poorly planned, poorley executed operations that needlessly get innocent people and LEO’s killed.

    1. avatar Aharon says:

      At Ruby Ridge, didn’t the FBI also murder an infant that was being held in the mother’s arms?

      1. avatar Ralph says:

        Yes, the FBI and ATF killed an infant along with the mom, son and, as always, the family dog.

        There was an attempt to prosecute Lon Horiuchi, the FBI murderer sniper who murdered shot Vicky Weaver and her baby, but Horiuchi had immunity.

  10. avatar Totenglocke says:

    Guys, we’ve been over this – it’s post 9/11 or 9-11. Post-911 makes it sound like the FBI attacked a person after they called for help.

    1. avatar Robert Farago says:

      My bad. Text amended.

    2. avatar Jim Barrett says:

      Who says that wouldn’t possibly happen with the armed thugs some of the police forces seem to have working for them?

  11. avatar Aharon says:

    It would be funny to have several cross bars made of steel horizontal on the inside of the door so that a chain saw from outside would catch on them. Ok, joking aside, it isn’t a great idea since the ATF err I mean local militarized fast reaction force cops will then be convinced you are a real danger.

    1. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

      Here’s what you want: Go down to the local Fastenal or Grainger store and ask for “drill rod.” This will come in various diameters, but usually three foot lengths.

      As for the “A-2” variant. This is “air quenching” drill rod. 1/4″ diameter should do it.

      As it is sold, it is soft enough to cut with a hacksaw, any hacksaw. Cut to the width of your door in the as-sold state. But if you heat it to bright red with an oxy-acetylene torch and then allow it to cool in the air, it becomes quite hard – like hard enough to dull a hacksaw and a file will skate right off it. For those who are metalheads, the Rockwell C hardness will be 58+ for A2 without tempering.

      Get an aircraft twist drill. Drill horizontal holes through your door. Insert hardened drill rod, coated with epoxy or other waterproof glue. Space them about 6″ apart, vertically.

      Unless the chainsaw has carbide-tipped teeth, the chain will be toast in the first 20 seconds of so of gnawing on that drill rod.

  12. avatar Tim McNabb says:

    Jeebus.

    If I heard a chainsaw coming through my door, I imagine I would have set up to shoot the first thing through. Then the feds would light my ass up and my widow would bury whatever is left.

    Can I put up a “no guns allowed” sign on my door?

  13. avatar Joe says:

    Chain saw? Dang. Getting the door bashed in in the wee hours is bad enough. But add a chain saw and I’m gonna have flashbacks to some crappy horror movies I saw in my younger stupider days.

    If anyone has a good answer about what to do in a situation like this, I’d love to hear it. I can’t come up with anything.

    1. avatar Jeff says:

      My answer? Retreat to your safe room the second you sense some hanky panky going on outside. Bar the door, call the cops and inform them that you’re going to blast anyone who comes through unless they confirm that they’re cops. If the dispatcher plays the silent game, you can’t be held accountable for what happens next.

      1. avatar Tom says:

        You might blow away a couple of them, but they would eventually fill you full of holes.
        The only answer I can come up with is; ” Today is a good day to die!”

  14. avatar Henry Bowman says:

    Another thing to consider is that free-lance thugs have been known to imitate the home invasion tactics of state-sanctioned thugs, thus quelling any potential resistance.

    Just google: “home invasion pose as police” or something to that effect.

  15. avatar OldLawman says:

    As a 15 year veteran of LEO, starting in 1981, I am just appalled by the current trends in law enforcement. I’m a gun guy, and certainly would have liked the flexibility to carry what I wanted, as opposed to the mandated .357 mag revolver. I like rifles in patrol cars, etc. But in this age of on-line data bases for utilities/property records/etc., there is no excuse for busting in the wrong door.
    I know if a chainsaw was buzzing through my front door, it would be met with multiple rounds of 7.62 from one of my FALs. Morons, pure and simple.

    1. avatar Tom says:

      If I had a chainsaw going through my door and I did not know who it was, I can say I probably would be a little upset and send some rounds throught the door and window before entry was gained.
      I suppose if the Cops were doing this, they probably would be successful in eventually killing the homeowner, but they might loose a couple of officers in the process.

  16. avatar Steve says:

    Yikes. How long before the Federal Alphabet-Soup kicks down the wrong-Wrong door and ends up on the receiving end of some serious firepower.

    There is SO much risk involved with a No-Knock raid that these folks should really question if it is worth it to confiscate some drugs. Those kind of things really risk an all-out gunfight with a terrified homeowner who thinks criminals are cutting their door down.

    Idiots.
    Idiot tactics,
    Idiot polices and Idiot actions.

    The only thing they did right is that they didnt shoot the dog (actually puppy).

    1. avatar Jim Barrett says:

      Unless you happen to be a gun runner yourself, it’s unlikely that you are going to have anything in the realm of “serious firepower” above and beyond what the Police are already expecting and are prepared for. If they think that you are an average Joe, they are not going to chainsaw your door. They only do that when they expect to meet stiff resistance. Give them that and you end up dead. Simple as that.

      As a society, we need to force our elected leaders to write better laws to prevent this sort of stupidity in the first place and failing that, revoke immunity for cops too stupid or too lazy to verify that they are kicking in the right door. The fact is that there are these kinds of raids every day in this country and only a very small percentage turn out like this one did. This suggests that most cops are smart enough to get it right and only a small number screw up this royally. You punish the morons and pass laws that make it very difficult to launch raids like this in the first place.

      Shooting it out is a non-starter. In any of the recent conflicts of citizen versus government, the government has always been the victor and the citizen, often the corpse.

      1. avatar TTACer says:

        Any semi auto in 7.62 (Russian or NATO) is serious firepower. A shield might stop it but a vest will not. Aside from wrongfully killing innocent people these guys are going to get themselves hurt.

      2. avatar bontai Joe says:

        Yep, the first thing I thought of was Ruby Ridge, David Coresh in Waco TX, the African MOVE group in Philly. All 3 situations where resistance was met with MUCH superior firepower. The government rolled tanks in at Waco. The police burned down an entire city block in Philly making dozens of families homeless, losing all their possessions. Sad as it is, the best thing to probably do in this situation is lay flat on the floor with your hands in plain sight and tie the family pets to your belt on a short leash. Or maybe even better……… squat in a corner with your head between your knees and kiss you own ass goodbye. Because with the feds, if there is no resistance, you have a decent chance of staying alive. With some of the local yokel LEO’s you may get shot just because you twitched wrong when the flash bangs explode next to you.

  17. avatar BeninMA says:

    Ending the War on Drugs would also make most of these raids go away.

    1. avatar Jim Barrett says:

      don’t kid yourself. All of these SWAT teams need work, so if you end the war on drugs, they just find other things to use the teams on. They’ll start with things like gun running and terrorism, but if necessary, you’ll eventually see SWAT being used to enforce unpaid parking tickets and expired dog licenses.

      1. avatar thatoneguy says:

        Or confiscating trans-fat containing snack foods.

      2. avatar BeninMA says:

        Fair point — people have already had guns drawn on them for selling raw milk. But the vast majority of these raids are justified by the War on Drugs… and the current pace of SWAT raids will continue as long as vice is criminalized, because it’s far easier to justify them when going after drug dealers than it is when going after the vendor at your local farmers’ market.

    2. avatar Tom says:

      Ending the War on Drugs would at least be a start to curtail the Police State.

  18. avatar Ralph says:

    Okay, I can understand that the SWAT pansies are afraid of dogs, but what the hell do they have against doors?

    1. avatar Jim Barrett says:

      Somebody bought a chainsaw to cut down a tree in their yard and charged it to their government account. Obviously, the accounting department must have questioned it, so it was necessary to employ it in the next raid to demonstrate that it was indeed a “business expense”

      1. avatar Ralph says:

        Jim, that makes sense. I once did the same thing with a raincoat.

  19. avatar NR says:

    So, if someone breaks through your door, it might be a good idea to yell, “I’m calling the cops!” rather than “I’m armed!”.

    Might do you some good… might not.

  20. avatar cz82mak says:

    Not sure how to send you guys tips but here’s something awful.

    Dad shot in front of kids, cuz the cop thought a dad picking up his kids was suspicious:

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/02/marine-shot-.html

  21. avatar Accur81 says:

    Well, the lady in the story complied with her orders, misguided as they were, and ended up unharmed – a strategy that certainly worked in this situation.

    I’m hoping this would work for those who are legally armed, but I’m having a hard time being optimistic about it.

    Large caliber rounds, be they 7.62 (or better yet, .50 Beowulf) will definitely stop intruders of all sorts. The government variety has much bigger guns than that, though. Plus tear gas and all sorts of other toys. And they will always have you outnumbered.

    It’s disturbing to think that this could happen to us. Perhaps the members of the armed inteligista could notify a few trusted friends that they will not respond kindly to their door being broken down in the middle of the night. That way there would be a few voices left after the gunfire clears to set the record straight.

    I’m having trouble sleeping anyways after all that Starbucks!

  22. avatar sdog says:

    i am AMAZED they didn’t shoot that cute little pitt, good thing it was so little. this is the first I’ve heard of using a chainsaw in a raid tho.

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