To me, firearms fall into three categories. First come work guns, which protect your life or feed your family. Next are fun guns, which are fun to shoot or you can use for competitions. Then there are curiosities, which you own for no other reason than to say that you own one. Guns can fall into more than one category, but it’s rare. The Saiga 12, for me, falls squarely in the curiosity category, mainly because it was so godawful at doing anything else. Let’s take a couple minutes and examine my $500 mistake.
I had just come back from the Tiger Valley Team 3-Gun match in Waco, Texas, where our team had our asses handed to us thanks to our lack of semi-auto shotguns (among other things) — a team running Saiga 12 shotguns wiped the floor with the competition. These guys, actually. Here’s a video of them running the absolute worst stage of the event. Keep in mind it was about 34 degrees, the ground was soaked, and it was extremely windy. Everyone was miserable, but it was the best misery of my life.
After we got back home and dried out we were looking around the local gun show for a nice cheap semi-auto 12 gauge when we spied a dealer with a pair of Saiga 12s sitting on his table with a $499 price tag on them. Brand new, never opened boxes. Paychecks fresh in our pockets we decided to relieve the dealer of his excess metallic gubbins and were the proud owners of new Saiga 12 shotguns.
On paper these things are ideal for 3-gun competitions. The magazine feeding system means that you don’t have to stand there and reload each round by hand into a tube — just slap a new magazine on and you’ve got 12 more tasty treats ready to go. The side accessory rail (for optics) and semi-automatic operation are just the icing on the cake.
In theory, the reliability of a Saiga 12 should be somewhere close to the AK-47 it’s modeled after. All the parts are there, and on the outside the gun looks like a standard AK. But on the inside the gun operates more like an M1 Carbine.
On an AK style rifle, the gas piston is directly pushed backwards by the expanding gases bled off from the barrel. There’s not a lot of moving parts involved, which is one of the reasons why it’s so reliable. On the Saiga 12, the expanding gases don’t push directly on the piston but rather on a “puck” near the front of the gas tube. The puck moves back rapidly, knocking the gas piston backwards and letting momentum do the rest. This system minimizes the loss of gas pressure, but it means the gas system isn’t quite as reliable as a standard AK.
We quickly realized that was going to be a problem.
The gun needed some TLC to get it running.
I was talking to SinistralRifleman (one of the badass dudes in that first video) a few months ago about the issues he was having with his Saigas, and he said that something along the lines of 3/4 of the Saiga shotguns he bought needed major work to get them to run reliably. Last I heard he was selling off some of his Saigas in favor of tube fed shotguns simply to have something that worked reliably.
Luckily all we needed to do was replace the major components of the gas system and the guns started running just fine. As an added bonus, since the new parts were Made in the USA the gun was now 922r compliant and legal to use with the larger capacity magazines.
When they run, the Saiga 12 is an okay shotgun. Like any AK pattern weapon it’s a little rough on the edges, both literally and figuratively. The trigger is square and rough to the touch, the action slides like oiled sandpaper, and the actual trigger pull feels gritty. The gun comes with iron sights (IRON SIGHTS!), but they’re so small that it’s hard to use. Adding insult to injury the sights are a good inch above the top of the bore, meaning that trying to hit anything closer than 25 yards is a bit of a challenge. The entire shooting experience in general is awful.
All of those things I could forgive if it worked as advertised, but in reality the gun was neither useful nor convenient.
Like the AK-47 the bolt doesn’t lock to the rear when the magazine is empty, meaning that the fastest way to reload is on a closed bolt, which is somewhat difficult. The tension on the spring in a loaded magazine pushes the shotgun rounds up forcefully enough to keep the magazine from seating properly. With the use of near excessive force the task can be accomplished, but in the middle of a competition and under the clock it gets very tricky.
The other option is to manually open the bolt and use the “bolt hold open” catch at the back of the receiver. This little silver protrusion works the same way the bolt hold open on an M1 Carbine works, except horrible. Normally a small spring in the receiver will move the bolt hold open catch out of the way once the forward pressure is released, thus allowing the bolt to move forward. I have fond memories of the time that that very spring slipped out in the middle of a stage, stranding me with an inoperable gun and targets still on the field. Even better was the fact that, since the bolt was stuck to the rear, there was no way to disassemble the gun and fix the spring. Three hours and some dental floss later I fixed it, but the shine was off the apple.
It was shortly before that, when racking the action, that my Saiga 12 took a nice chunk of flesh out of my hand.
Ignoring the mechanical issues, the gun wasn’t even good for the original purpose I purchased it. I wanted a nice, slick semi-auto for 3-gun shooting, but what I got was something that dumped me in the same division as all the other people who spent way too much money on their guns. “Outlaw Open” they called it, where every kind of speedloader and gimmick you can think of is allowed. I’m pretty sure even machine guns are cool. For someone who was just starting out it wasn’t the right place — the learning curve was way too steep. I needed to step back into Tac Optics and I’ve been happily in that division ever since.
I tried it in one “real” competition before giving up. Here’s a little gem from that day. Note how I’m having trouble with the elevation thanks to the raised iron sights (and ignore the bit where my half blind teammate runs smack into a table and DQs himself).
Here’s another video from that match showing the elevation issues a little more clearly. Note how I keep shooting above that last plate on the right — I was holding my irons center of mass instead of compensating for the high sight radius and short distance. I knew better, but the second that buzzer goes off sometimes your training goes right out the window. The important bits start at 1:42.
That reminds me of another complaint I had about this gun. Magazine retention was a bit of an issue, as the magazines were approximately six miles long. They didn’t fit in any of my magazine pouches and dropped out if I tried to use a pants pocket. I tried using some plastic belt clips a couple times, but even then moving around with those things was very uncomfortable. Very. Uncomfortable.
There was precisely one day where I was happy I bought this gun, and that was the day I sold it. I paid $500 for it brand new, and sold it for $1,000 at the height of the Saiga 12 scare (when the ATF was allegedly about to make them illegal). Other than that, in my experience Saiga 12 shotguns are about as useful as a solar powered flashlight; good in theory, but sucky in practice. It’s a design with promise, but in its factory configuration it wasn’t the gun for me.
Man, I really did lose a lot of weight since last year… I’m sorry, what were we talking about?
Saiga 12 Gauge Semi-Automatic Shotgun
Specifications
Caliber: 12 Gauge
Barrel: 23″ threaded for a choke
Size: 45.1″ overall length
Weight: 7 lbs. 5 oz.
Operation: Semi-automatic short stroke recoil
Finish: Manganese Phosphate
Capacity: Ships with 1×4 round magazine
Price: $700 MSRP
Ratings (Out of Five Stars)
Ratings are relative to other similar firearms. Final score does not reflect the “average” of the categories but instead the overall feelings of the reviewer.
Accuracy: * * * *
The sights take some getting used to, but once you’re dialed in it’s not that bad in terms of accuracy. Then again, it is a shotgun.
Ergonomics: *
The magazine release is awkward, the trigger position is a bit awkward as well, the safety is actively looking for ways to cut you, the stock feels flimsy, and loading in general takes some major adjustment to the normal manual of arms. Terrible. Just terrible.
Ergonomics Firing: * * *
The trigger sucks, the stock is uncomfortable, and the checkering is too aggressive to fire this for extended periods without some sort of gloves.
Reliability: *
Heh. Hah! HAHA! That’s a good one. Yeah, no. If the failures were predictable (high round counts, crappy ammo, etc.) I would understand, but it seems to jam for no reason whatsoever and often at the most inopportune moments. That’s not just me saying it either, there’s a good number of people who have experienced the exact same issues. Plus that whole thing with the bolt hold open catch was annoying.
Customization: * *
There’s plenty of places that will turn your “sporting” Saiga 12 into whatever tactical monstrosity you can imagine (Red Jacket and Tromix immediately come to mind), but there’s not a lot you can do without some metal working tools. A Mossberg 930, for comparison, will let the shooter swap out just about everything on the gun with a punch and a screwdriver. Two star rating for any significant alteration needing a machine shop.
Overall Rating: * *
Avoid this like the plague. Even with the cash I got out of it as an investment I still wish someone had told me that before I bought mine. In terms of being a useful firearm it’s awful. But if you like it because it’s an interesting curiosity then more power to ya.
But if there’s one anecdote that sums up this gun perfectly it’s this: My buddy and I bought ours at the exact same time. We ran them for a while, then didn’t talk for a few months. The next time we saw each other we had sold our Saigas and bought “normal” semi-auto shotguns. We both came to the exact same conclusion about the same time with no input from each other. In my business that’s pretty close to something we call “independent verification.”
I really hope no one makes any decisions on buying or not buying based on this article. You really should do some research on the gun youre using before doing a write up. No informed Saiga owner would compete with a Saiga 12 before converting it. Google “saiga 12 conversion” so you can follow me properly. But of course you didnt put up that much effort before writing this utter ignorant bull, so I dont expect you will now.
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I recommend learning how to properly use the gun prior to writing a review on it. Please visit http://firearms.atactv.com/ for help on how to properly use the gun and load on a closed bolt. It is about technique, not force. I would think someone writing for a website designed to help people would know something as simple as this.
Also, doing some research prior to purchasing would help you in regards to problems you had. As others have said, the gun is designed much differently than how you were trying to use it. I think a pump or other tube fed gun would be better suited for someone not willing to give their firearm the time it needs.
So you bought a gun for 500 dollers, while the people at the competition probably had their Saiga’s pimped out, and theirs cost up to 2500 dollers?
Wow. Glad I bought mine before I read this dribble. Would have been pissed to not purchase something so badass because of something reported by a person who doesnt have a clue about the platform.
Why do you think you got your ass handed to you by a team with Saigas?
Pingback: Gun Review: Saiga 12 Gauge Semi-Automatic Shotgun | Hold Your Future
This review is a joke. I really hope you don’t get paid for your reviews, because my 12 year old son just converted a saiga 12 and only has 900 dollars total in the gun.
The best thing I can compare an S-12 to is a pinewood derby car. If you want to race the block of wood “as is” you can, but that’s not the point, and certainly not any fun. All the fun takes place in the shop, carving, honing, and customizing a boring block of wood into a cub scout version of a Delorean, or Batmobile, or whatever. And that’s the point. In fact with just a dremel tool you can make an S-12 an entirely different animal, albeit an animal with the smoothest internals you’ve ever seen.
My S-12 was my first gun, and I have to say, I was very disappointed that I couldn’t take all my firearms into the “chop shop” to make them all they could be. The path less traveled has many rewards, and the sky is the limit with configurations and abilities (not to mention dependability).
Yah, this is a terribly written article; you NEVER even shoot a gun, much less buy one and compete with it, without first doing research on it. Before I bought my Saiga I scoured the Saiga-12 forum for half a month. After that I bought one and had it converted to include only parts that fit me perfectly.
Even on regular pump shotguns you’ll have to get shell pouches, heat shields, better stocks, tritium beads, slings, shell saddles, and you’ll have to practice on tactical speed loading based on the specific model.
I have owned guns for years. The only thing i want them to do is work when i call on it. Then again a gun is only as good as the person that takes care of it and the amo that is shot through it,no big secret. I will say this about the 12 gauge….long range shot
remington 1100………pump shotgun have something to hide behind……….saiga ……if you want total destruction of a fairly close target. I would use them all in these applications.
Converting is fun. Yes. But a product should work out of the box too. Maybe it should be called the saiga base/kit sold seperately, or maybe they should call it a pine wood derby gun?????? unbelieveable
Carpenter, you probably don’t have an S-12 so your probably not familiar with the nature of it. In order for it to be allowed into the US the S-12 is neutered to “sporting configuration”. This is sort of like putting the wheels on a Ford Explorer on a Corvette. Will it work in the stock configuration? No question, mine worked flawlessly, and I would imagine the most problems with the stock firearm are due to user error.
Converting an S-12 is nothing like putting add-ons on your AR, you shouldn’t think of it that way. When we convert an S-12 we’re actually transforming it back to the animal it was designed to be… and then some.
Exactly. To say the “as imported” configuration is the “stock” configuration betrays an ignorance of the true as-designed configuration. The Saiga 12 is a “12ga AK-47″. We don’t convert it into something new. We convert it back to what it was originally before the silly import restrictions.
As far as reliability, it’s a Kalashnikov. Everybody I know who has one (several) have no reliability issues, period. Mine functions flawlessly with any ammo I feed it from powder-puff target loads to bone-crushing 3″ magnums.
I’m surprised that you had malfunctions, but I can say with assurance that your problems were the exception, and would certainly have been curable.
I don’t know what the problem is besides incorrect expectations from Nick. The 24″ bbl. Saiga IZ-107 I purchased worked well out of the box. I added a poly-choke and light, replaced the gas knob and forearm, and now it performs even better under differing circumstances. I use it for trap, plinking, and hunting.
christian?… I ( had) 3 saigas and have 4 ARs all Colts. Ill take my Benelli any day over the saiga, Its cheap plastic shotgun shooting for the beginner with no money. The ghetto gun store in my area carries only those. Thanks for the lesson and the new acronyms. interesting.
No one cares how many Colt AR’s you have, the only reason they have the original design is because they bought it from Armalite for military contracts. And Christian only used 3 acronyms: “US,” “AR,” and “S-12.” I’m glad to hear you now know what all of those are now.
Thanks for the support Jake, but I learned when it comes to arguments on the internet you’re better off not wasting your time (even among our gun community). And Mr. Carpenter seems to be someone who doesn’t learn quickly… having owned 3 Saigas before realizing it was a “cheap plastic shotgun” that “does not work” for “beginners who are in the ghetto”. Most people would only make that mistake once, however Mr. Carpenter has a different kind of “discernment”.
I have a Saiga 12…I have not done a thing to it. When I first got it right out of the box didn’t have one single fail to feed. I saw the videos above and saw the fail to feeds, and obviously can’t say anything about that, but with mine it works flawlessly no matter what ammo I put through it. As for how much I shoot, let me say this, I don’t have to pack the car and go to the range. My range is right out my back door so I shoot alot.
FLAME DELETED Within an hour of purchasing mine I was at the range burning through shells whith no problems. Only thing I found with my is shooting low brass it would sometimes not eject the shell, but that was before doing the conversion. The Saiga is built on the AK frame which is one of the most dependable and most rugged frames ever designed, why do you think the AK47 was in production for so long as a military standard. I have a few more mods in plan for mine but first I will be purchasing a drum, actually will be getting it this weekend. The author talks like a modded gun is tabbo! Very few of my firearms are still in their stock form, whats the fun of leaving one stock? The author says the checkering is to aggresive and hurts his hands! Toughen up dude! Not everyone has tender hands and has to wear gloves. All I can say is before you decide not to buy a Saiga FLAME DELETED find someone who has one and give it a try, talk to them, do some research on your own. FLAME DELETED
I can’t believe this article. Someone who has so many problems with a Saiga 12 has no business owning or shooting a gun. This article reminds me of the poorly paid actors on infomercials that struggle to use everyday products. The Saiga 12 is one of my favorite shotguns. I have had 3 Saiga 12′s in various configurations (as well as many other shotguns) from stock to fully customized and the only problem with any of them was an occasional FTE using crappy Winchester target loads. Many of my friends have Saiga 12′s and none of them has had any problems. The author obviously has very womanly hands to have a chunk of flesh taking off and getting hurt by the checkering of all things. I prefer one of my Benellis but the Saiga is a badass fun to work on gun that has been nothing but reliable for me. Not bad for $500. The people who knock it for sometimes needing some adjustments out of the box are the kind of people who have no knowledge of guns and no mechanical abilities. They have girly hands like the author. They’ve probably never even cleaned a gun and just pay to have a gunsmith do it.
You can usually tell the weakness of a position by the vitriol in which it is defended. Why not respect Nick’s opinion? We all have opinions. Some believe Saigas are cheap pieces of junk, period. Seems that others like them. Neither will ever agree. He didn’t like the gun. That seems to have hurt some feelings. Get over it.
The Saiga 12 is a fine weapon if it’s not put into the hands of
these Fudds. Improper technique on reloads, a total lack of
understanding on the use of cover, and the timed shooting games
like these make this article laughable. Haha he even complains that
the checkering hurts his hands. Not to mention this weapon was not
even restored back to proper military fashion.
benelli is not used by the US military it’s mossberg. michael I don’t know where you get your information but trust me it’s a mossberg 500 that the US military uses as it’s standard shotgun. The M500 is said shotgun. benelli did the m2 or m3 is what they call there shotgun. the military uses the m500 made by mossberg. it’s a pump action shotgun.
Not sure where your get your info from. But the military is using the benelli m4 and the Remington 870′s sorry to blow up your I’m so angry behind a keyboard bit but your wrong pal. Also I agree with this guy why buy I shotgun for 700 bucks then not be able to shoot it for what it is until I bring it somewhere to spend more money on it to shoot correctly!!!!! That just doesn’t make sense! AT ALLLL!!!!!! If you buy a gun brand new and have to upgrade immediately to work IT’S JUNK!!!!!!!!!!!!! My m4 out of the box 20,000 rounds without a jam. Well worth the money!!!
Actually you are both wrong. The Benelli M4 is a recent addition to the USMC. The Mossberg 590-A1 is what the US Army uses. By far the Mossberg 590-A1 is the most common pump-action shotgun in current use by the US military. The Benelli M4 is by default the most common semi-auto shotgun used by the USMC. If im correct the Mossberg 500 was used during Veitnam and through the Cold War, only to be phased out by the better 590-A1. And as far a the Saiga goes, i seemed to notice a trend from the upset owners on this thread. seems to me they are so defensive because of the money they had to put into a weapon just to get it in “working condition”. And before you go bashing me on that statment, i am fully aware of the miles of red-tape our government has put on the Saiga line of weapons. Im also aware that the angry saiga owners would probably sware by their weapons. (only after proper modification no doubt). That being said, id rather have a 590-A1 over a fully modified saiga any day of the week. why do you ask? its actually due to several great reasons… First, when i by a weapon the only ugrades that i should have to do it, are guide-rod/recoil spring (pistols) and Tritium Sights. Perhaps some stock/ammo saddle options for a shotty. And second, To Hell with Russia. and wile im at FU** China…
FLAME DELETED
That’s funny. I remember working as a small arms repairman in the mid 1980′s while in the Army and the Marines were using Remington 870′s and the US Army was using Winchester 1100′s.