Question of the Day: How Could This Shooter Improve?

With a bit of luck,  won’t remove this video of his gal pal practicing her shooting. Hopefully, karlie herself will make the electronic journey here to TTAG to learn a thing or two about firearms fundamentals. Such as . . .

comments

  1. avatar Van says:

    Well, without seeing where her rounds are landing on the paper, it appears she is anticipating the recoil and flinching during each shot.

    This may not be a big deal, as Mel Gibson was able to draw a smiley face on a target while doing the same thing.

  2. avatar Silver says:

    Wear a shirt that goes up to the neck, hehe.

  3. avatar ankle says:

    Different duds. Hot brass down the shirt hurts.

  4. avatar mikeb302000 says:

    What about some exercise to get that upper arm in shape. She’d need that for proper control when shooting anything heavier.

    1. avatar tdiinva says:

      Mike:

      You must be built like Arnold Swartzenegger. Tell you what, next time you area in the DC area we can go coon hunting. Nothing like a 5-10 mile run through the brambles chasing after the hounds in the middle of the night carrying your trusty 22.

      1. avatar mikeb302000 says:

        Sorry, man, is there a joke in there somewhere?

  5. avatar sdog says:

    she is flinching for starters

  6. avatar Mike says:

    Heck, she isn’t doing half bad. Flinching? Seems to be keeping the muzzle down range pretty well between shots. I realize massively muscled arms (colloquial ‘guns’) are a plus (and not just for shooting), but common!

  7. avatar ExurbanKevin says:

    She’s flinching, and if she has someone mix in a few snap-caps with the live rounds in the mag, she should be able to see what that means and how to correct it.

    One thing I’ve found with nearly every woman I’ve taught is their stance usually needs improvement. Most women (and quite a few men) lean their upper body away from the gun, making it an unstable shooting platform. If that happens, I ask them to set the gun down and show them how the recoil impulse travels down there arms into the body and knocks them off-target, then ask them to shuffle their feet a bit and set up as if they had to stop someone from running into them. A good stance goes a long way to controlling recoil.

  8. avatar Magoo says:

    back isn’t straight/shoulders are forward
    both arms are locked
    she is anticipating the recoil
    she needs to be wearing a proper shirt.

    All but the last can be fixed by standing her straight up and bending her weak arm at the elbow.

    1. avatar Patrick Carrube says:

      Standing up straight and bending the weak elbow? Perhaps we should trade in that P22 for a Colt Detective, her blouse for a blue suit, and ear muffs for a nice fadora, b/c you just described the perfect 1950’s “Hollywood Detective” stance! A modern (and effective) shooting stance (for pistols) has a slight to moderate forward lean (at the hips, not shoulders like she is doing), putting pressure on the balls of your feet. Both arms need to be slightly bent at the elbow (never lock ANY joint during shooting, sports, etc). Standing straight up and down means recoil is absorbed by your spine instead of your shoulders, arms, and upper body. Aside from “leaning at the shoulders”, the other reason this P22 is “recoiling” so bad is because she brought the pistol sights “up” to her eyes, instead of her eyes down to the natural arm/hand/pistol/bore plane. Many first-time shooters do this and it is extremely common.

      She also needs proper safety glasses, and a shirt with a tighter fitting collar may suit her better.

      1. avatar Rebecca says:

        the other reason this P22 is “recoiling” so bad is because she brought the pistol sights “up” to her eyes, instead of her eyes down to the natural arm/hand/pistol/bore plane.

        Can you provide a link or two to a picture of someone properly holding the pistol like you’re describing above? I think I might be doing the same thing, and would like to do it properly.

        1. avatar Magoo says:

          This link pictures a woman employing three popular basic stances (scroll down). I am describing Weaver or modified Weaver aka Chapman — best for women, many say — while Carrube is describing something more like isosceles. But in any case, you want your shoulders to feel loose, straight, natural, not hunched or “turtled.” If so, then your sighting plane should be good.

          http://www.prismnet.com/~cortese/firearms/index.html

        2. avatar Patrick Carrube says:

          Magoo – Good link for explanation and although I think Janis is well-intentioned, she is a bit misinforming in some areas…

          Rebecca – the Weaver or Modified Weaver is an old stance that has managed to maintain a small following still today. Saying that it is still popular is like saying a wood stove is popular in inner-city dwellings!

          Some say they can handle recoil better in a Weaver stance, but it is usually from being more comfortable (i.e. that’s all they have done in the past) and not necessarily from them actually being able to shoot and get back to target quickly and reliably. Many argue that the Weaver is more accurate than an isosceles, and to this I do agree. When shooting big-bore revolvers at longer distances (50+ yards), I use a Weaver stance as I can steady the pistol better.

          I have a friend who is all “Weaver’ed” and although I’ve offered some modern advice and he does shoots better with an isosceles, he is more comfortable with his Weaver. The same friend also wonders why he limp-wrists a .45 1911 like a geriatric grandmother shooting a 44-Magnum, but that’s a different story!

          Watch some Training/IDPA/IPSC videos on YouTube (professionals please), and you’ll see what I mean. Their arms are naturally extended from the body and are usually perfectly parallel to the ground. The shooters bring their head to the sights, and not the sights up to their eyes (i.e. not perfectly parallel with the ground). Getting “off parallel” usually requires cocking or bending of the wrists, and some rotation of the shoulders. Since these joints are angled, recoil cannot come straight back into the shoulders and upper torso. Instead, these angles are where the force of the recoil gets absorbed/dissipated first, causing larger than necessary recoil movements. In this video, the woman has her wrists higher than her shoulders, making that dinky P22 recoil like a person of comparable size shooting a 9mm or higher. By lowering her hands and bringing her head down to the sights, more recoil would come through her arms and into her shoulders and she would experience less “flipping” in her wrists/hands/grip.

          I still can’t believe we’re talking about controlling recoil on a .22LR!

        3. avatar Magoo says:

          Rather than proselytize for any particular religion, I like to show a variety of stances and methods and let people try them.

  9. avatar Walrusleather says:

    Agree to the flinching, slight limp wrist and anticipation of a P22 and it’s limited recoil above plus one comment.

    It has taken thousands of rounds for my wife to loose the hot brass flinch. I want her to be able to deal with it without losing target sight or fear that it would cause damage. Small singe on the skin or down the shirt is worth it to not be afraid of a minor distraction. Standing at my wife’s shoulder coaching her grip and breath control, I catch brass to the face and head frequently (oh yeah that’s why we wear eyes) so much so that It does not even faze me.

    1. avatar Margaret says:

      Brass bouncing off your face is a little different than it going in your cleavage and sticking there. Just sayin’.

      1. avatar Rebecca says:

        + ouch

    2. avatar HSR47 says:

      It took me awhile to stop flinching at the sound of firearms going off — it was never really a noticeable issue until I got into louder rifle calibers, at which point I gradually learned to deal with it.

      If the flinching is that much of an issue, I’d recommend getting her shooting something much louder, and having her around for others shooting it too; I find that the louder the report, the more noticeable the flinching. As she probably doesn’t notice it herself with the .22, making it more obvious will better equip her to deal with it in general.

      The first step to solving a problem is knowing that you have a problem.

  10. avatar Coyote Gray says:

    Well, she is wearing prescription glasses, and not shooting glasses.

    Even if her prescirption glasses are as shatter proof as shooting glasses, proper shooting glasses provide larger coverage area to prevent eye injury from hot gasses, or hot brass landing between the brow and your lens.

    1. avatar Rebecca says:

      I thought my prescription glasses were enough on the range. When a hot shell landed behind my glasses and burned my cheek just below the eye, I started wearing safety glasses. OUCH.

      1. avatar Robert Farago says:

        Tip: wear a baseball cap.

        1. avatar HSR47 says:

          Agreed. Not only does it help keep brass away, but it often helps sighting through scopes and/or electronic sights.

  11. avatar Hunter S. says:

    Once the brass hit her face and she reached back to bat at it she should have taken her finger off the trigger… could have been an ND.

    And I don’t think she is anticipating the recoil like everyone else is saying… Proper clothes is a must… Same goes with footwear. Whenever I see some fool wearing flip flops at the range or in the weight room I just shake my head.

  12. avatar sdog says:

    shots 1-7 or 8, look at her eyes, that’s all I’m saying she is flinching, but that is from the brass and not the recoil. she has ok grip and her trigger finger is good with the exception of keeping her finger on the trigger when she got hit with the brass.

    as for footwear, hunter S is right on the money, where i live you can’t even get intot he range without proper shoes. even with a proper shirt you can still get burn my brass, i have a mark on the inside of my elbow from my g17 last week.

    1. avatar Giao Nguyen says:

      I burned myself a few weeks ago from a piece of brass that went over my head and came down the back of my neck. The proper clothing helps but it isn’t fool-proof.

  13. avatar Travis Leibold says:

    Without seeing her target its hard to say for sure.
    Probably a bit of anticpation as you can see the muzzle dive a bit as it returns from recoil. Also it is recoiling at different amplitudes indicating changing grip pressure. (unless this is due to frame rate fo the video)

    Really not too bad though.
    Hips back/shoulders forward in the stance.
    Watch/See the front sight during the entire trigger pull/press. Keep it aligned.
    Try to take 2 seconds to break the shot (as a beginner). one thousand one- placing finger on trigger, getting it set, taking up slack. one thousand two- steadily adding pressure while keeping your sights aligned and on target until the shot breaks. Repeat.
    Left hand stuffed under trigger guard rather than just placed over right hand.
    Rigid and Firm Grip.

    Overall though, a good start. Nothing too hard to adjust…

  14. avatar Buuurr says:

    She needs to be turned a little to the side. She needs ‘proper’ eye protection, glasses don’t cut it as far as I can see. She is closing her eyes. If she is closing her eyes she is flinching. If she is flinching her breathing is messed up. She needs better ears or to be not afraid of the gun. She is shooting though. She will be fine in time.

  15. avatar MikeSilver says:

    Get safety glass to go over her glasses. I had a friend who burned his eye when a piece of hot brass got caught between his Rx Glasses and his eye. Ouch.

    She is doing very well. Have her move her right foot back a little and lean forward. It will help a little with speed and comfort. BUT, she’s doing great!

    1. avatar HSR47 says:

      Glasses over glasses don’t work. Period.

      The next time I get my eyes examined, I’ll likely purchase a pair of prescription safety glasses, but until then I will continue to use my standard prescription eyewear when I shoot.

      As far as I’m concerned, life is full of risks, and it is up to us to do our best to minimize them; As far as I’m concerned, my eyewear (especially combined with my hat) do more than enough to cover me, and are far safer than the alternatives of trying to double up or go sans-prescription eyewear (neither of which is safe, as both obstruct my ability to see what I’m shooting at, which is what gun safety is all about).

      Until you have 20/200 or worse vision in both eyes, or know what it’s like to wear goggles over prescription eyewear, don’t judge those of us who do not do so.

  16. avatar Patrick from Texas says:

    Okay, was my post deleted because I disagreed with “armchair quarterbacking” a new shooter’s technique or because I used profanity?

    1. avatar Robert Farago says:

      Is that a trick question?

      Profanity. And our commenting policy: no flaming the website, its authors or fellow commentators. And my personal preference to discuss editorial matters off-line, to keep the comments on-subject.

      Ping me at guntruth@me.com

  17. avatar moe says:

    What about the slide engagement at the start of the video? I seem to remember a discussion about whether or not to use the slide lock for it’s intended purpose at TTAG a while ago.

  18. avatar Sean says:

    I’ve learned 3 ways to release the slide.

    1. pistol hand thumb
    2. support hand thumb
    3. over the top/overhand

    I trained using #1 for years. Can do it with in my sleep.

    Tried #2 for 3 months and could not get it to work consistently/reliably enough for ME.

    Currently working with #3. Still not reflex, but I’ve decided to stay with it.
    Works best with gloves, most reliable, and seems to work with all different types of handguns.

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