Dayton CCW Holder Defends Himself, Forgets to STFU

Adam Fox is damned lucky. Despite poor situational awareness and not having his gun on his hip, he was able to successfully defend himself against two BGs who attacked him at a Dayton gas station. Then he decided to get on line…

Watch the video. Fox was first approached by a random crackhead inside the gas station. He was then followed out to his car. From the video, he appears – to me – too nonchalant. He turns his back on the BG a number of times, no doubt hoping he’ll get the message and buzz off. No such luck.

Fox had gotten back in his car and was still engaged in conversation with the scumbag (um, why?) when he was attacked. Once Zippy the Crackhead started throwing haymakers, a friend materialized and joined in.

The gun was in his center console. If Fox had been attacked outside of the car, things probably would have turned out much worse for him. Fearing for his life, the driver used his legally carried pistol to defend himself. So it’s all good, right?

Not so much. It turns out Fox is also a member of the Ohioans for Concealed Carry Intertube forum. And four days after the incident, he went on line to tell his buddies what happened.

Fox wrote that he’d been told that the police had decided not to file charges. Also that he’d been in contact with his lawyer the entire time. My guess is that the attorney didn’t know he’d be recording his thoughts and description of events on line for everyone to see. One wrong word or turn of phrase and that decision not to prosecute can turn on a dime. All you need is a hyperactive district attorney.

As TTAG AI member Aaron Josie has put it so eloquently, if  the worst happens and you have to defend yourself with your gun, STFU. And not just with the media, but on line, too. All this guy’s done is memorialize a fair amount of additional evidence that – to borrow a phrase – may be used against him in a court of law.

So let this be a lesson to our devoted Armed Intelligentsia. We hope you never have to defend yourself as Fox did. But if you do, have your gun on your hip. And don’t tell us about it, mkay?

comments

  1. avatar Waggoneer says:

    When it comes to self-defense it’s, Shoot – Shovel – Shut up. You don’t need to be tweeting it or tagging the bodies in your Facebook pictures.

    1. avatar oldvet53 says:

      very good advice, and if you have a CHL have the firearm on your person. having it in the car and being outside of the car does you no good but make you a sitting duck.

  2. avatar Ralph says:

    I’m sure that Adam’s comments were not vetted by his lawyer — I’m glad he didn’t say anything too stupid. Adam’s case also has everything going for it. It was two on one, he was attacked in his car (Castle Doctrine applicability), he called 911 right away, and the whole deal was “caught on tape.” The fact remains, however, that no matter the circumstances, STFU.

  3. avatar Chris Dumm says:

    DZ is right: generations of Americans fought and died for your right to shut the f*ck up. Don’t disrespect their sacrifice by blabbing about your self-defense nightmare to all your FB friends.

    If your story has to go public, let your attorney do it for you! His or her words can’t be used against you if the DA changes his or her mind and files charges.

    1. avatar Raph84 says:

      Chris,

      A big +1 to that. “Generations of Americans fought and died for your right to shut the f*ck up” is totally my quote of the day

      1. avatar Martin Albright says:

        Trying to remember what movie the line was from that goes: “He has the right to remain silent. What he lacks is the ability.”

        1. avatar Patrick B. says:

          Shrek: Donkey, you HAVE the right to remain silent. What you lack is the capacity.

        2. avatar Bob H says:

          Patrick B is correct on the movie quote. Ron White also does a routine where he says “I had the right to remain silent. What I lacked was the ability.”
          Did you conflate the two?

  4. About a year ago, I had an online debate with an attorney who thought it was a good idea to create an online “support group” for individuals who had used guns in self-defense (scroll down for our exchange in the comments):

    http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2010/06/08/a-support-group-for-individuals-who-have-used-a-gun-in-self-defense/

    As an attorney myself, I let him know it was a terrible idea. Unfortunately, he is still running the forum, although there appears to have been no activity.

  5. avatar Todd says:

    While I make no comments about whether or not the shooter should have talked, if you haven’t looked at the Ohio CCW website, go to page 7 of the forum and see where the other attacker tells his FB friends that he’s going to get revenge… one seriously gummed-up douche nozzle.

    http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53502

  6. avatar CUJO THE DOG OF WAR says:

    Crazy. It’s even more crazy that you can be told you were in the right, only to have it changed. I’d like to see the justification for that one. I wonder if they’ll be as energetic in catching the 2nd suspect, who admitted being there.

  7. avatar HAVE1911 says:

    I find it incredible that someone would go online about such an experience. On other forums I been criticized for beyond handing identification and acknowledging the obvious,
    STFU.
    It is really not smart to pay a lawyer hundreds of dollars an hour then represent yourself.

  8. avatar Chase says:

    Daniel. Do you know you are the most unbelievably self righteous person here and unfortunately for you, you aren’t on a horse, you are on a donkey.

    The only person that should of shut up, and Daniel Zimmerman being on his donkey looking down at all us uneducated gun owners, is the criminal, the 2nd guy is on Facebook rambling about revenge.

    1. avatar Buuurr says:

      “Chase says:

      June 24, 2011 at 4:29 PM

      Daniel. Do you know you are the most unbelievably self righteous person here and unfortunately for you, you aren’t on a horse, you are on a donkey.

      The only person that should of shut up, and Daniel Zimmerman being on his donkey looking down at all us uneducated gun owners, is the criminal, the 2nd guy is on Facebook rambling about revenge.”

      Thanks, Dude. I needed the laugh.

  9. avatar Magoo says:

    To me, the man’s behavior in the gas station and his behavior on the Internet afterward indicate that here is someone who likes to generate drama around his person. He willfully placed himself in the mess and he’s damn lucky he didn’t foment a situation leading to his felony prosecution. This is one more example of a gun creating trouble for its owner.

    1. avatar Daniel Zimmerman says:

      Sorry Magoo, but I don’t follow. First, how did he he create drama? He appeared to try to ignore the attacker, then put him off verbally but with no luck.

      Then he got in his car intending to leave. Now he probably should have rolled the window up and laid a patch, but how did he “willfully place himself in a mess?”

      Finally, in what way did the gun create the trouble here? If he had not had the gun, he probably would have taken a helluva beating – or a lot worse – at the hands of two jacked up attackers.

      1. avatar Todd AF Vet says:

        Now Daniel, remember in Magoo’s world it is all the fault of the guy with the gun. Those two upstanding young men where only preaching to weary travelers. And the gun-loon attacked them for their troubles. See, like Magoo says, if there was no gun the two street preachers would have taken their tithe and been on their way to make this world a better place.

        1. avatar Magoo says:

          I don’t need a gun to protect myself against a skinny crackhead. A gun is a hindrance. I can pop you three times in the nose before you can draw a handgun. While you have one or both hands down reaching for your weapon, I’m pounding on your face. This is not a special skill. Any healthy man can learn it.

          So don’t be confused here, Todd. I’m not a pansy. With all due respect, maybe you are. You seem to think you need a gun just to go put gas in your car.

          This guy made several crucial errors in this confrontation because a) he is half looking for trouble to begin with and b) he is counting on his gun to save his ass when his mouth runs out of steam. Oh look, he’s having a battle of wits with a crackhead in a gas station. How brilliant is that. Come on, people. Use your heads.

        2. avatar Buuurr says:


          Magoo says:
          June 25, 2011 at 8:02 PM
          I don’t need a gun to protect myself against a skinny crackhead. A gun is a hindrance. I can pop you three times in the nose before you can draw a handgun. While you have one or both hands down reaching for your weapon, I’m pounding on your face. This is not a special skill. Any healthy man can learn it.

          So don’t be confused here, Todd. I’m not a pansy. With all due respect, maybe you are. You seem to think you need a gun just to go put gas in your car.

          This guy made several crucial errors in this confrontation because a) he is half looking for trouble to begin with and b) he is counting on his gun to save his ass when his mouth runs out of steam. Oh look, he’s having a battle of wits with a crackhead in a gas station. How brilliant is that. Come on, people. Use your heads.”

          None of what you are talking about actually happened, Magoo. A dude paid for gas, he was accosted, he soundly defended himself. In your world this happened but the camera states different.

  10. avatar racer88 says:

    No comments about the victim driving off after shooting the BG?

    1. avatar Buuurr says:

      You are supposed to retreat in self defense situations. You are afteral trying to defend yourself and remove yourself from deadly danger. To do anything else is to incite the thought that you wanted a gun fight and to kill people. He was in his car and in Ohio that does constitute as a castle doctrine shooting so he did do the right thing.

      1. avatar racer88 says:

        Agreed. Plus there was the guy who may have returned to re-attack.

    2. avatar Gerard says:

      Yeah, just because one guy is down doesn’t mean the place is safe. Did the second attacker have a gun? Is there a third guy who will show up? Call 911, drive a couple blocks and tell the cops exactly where you are. Your going to a place a safety not fleeing a crime.

      If questioned about leaving say nothing anyway.

  11. avatar Homobangbangamus says:

    “All you need is a hyperactive district attorney.”

    You of course meant, ” S*hthead district attorney ” or perhaps, ” ” S*hthead, Marxist district attorney.”

    1. avatar Mickey says:

      And we know there aren’t any of those in Dayton. (/sarcasm)

  12. avatar Homobangbangamus says:

    Free speech? Only if you don’t know that it doesn’t exist anymore! That’s what these as*wipes have done to us, among other things and we just smile and agree with them!

  13. avatar TSgt B says:

    Magoo: As usual, you just had to add an inflammatory, asinine statement to try to rile the righteous. You need to seek some serious help, dude.

  14. avatar Magoo says:

    I’d like people to take special note of something here. Very often, robberies and assaults are not cold calls. The potential perp will first approach you with some pretense — asking for a dollar, for directions, for a ride, etc. This person is some combination of desperate, mentally disturbed, and criminal, and in these first few moments he’s deciding whether he might rob you, or whether or not you are Satan, or that maybe he’d like to kick your ass for the hell of it.

    This is how many people get robbed by criminals/attacked by crazy people / both. The victim thinks he is merely trying to extract himself from an awkward social situation, not realizing until it’s too late that the confrontation is about to turn violent. In fact, these first moments are crucial. First, never engage or argue with these people. Make it totally clear with your voice, actions, and body language that you want no conversation or contact and that you are not a suitable victim. Understanding who you are dealing with will get you out of more situations than a gun ever will.

    1. avatar Raph84 says:

      Magoo,

      This is what I don’t get about you. While your above advice makes perfect sense it flies in the face of things you have said here before. You have indicated very recently that all gun loons treat everyone like a threat. What you said above however is whenever someone asks you for a bit of spare change, or for the time we should treat it like it might become a life and death encounter (and start the verbal judo).

      Like I said it makes good sense to be aware of your surroundings and not talk to strange men at gas stations in the middle of the night….but it doesn’t fit with your past advice.

      Ps as to punching them 3 times etc. doesn’t matter how many times you punch the first guy if the second guy gets you in a choke hold (while you are busy getting your 3 punches in) you are pretty much done. 2 on 1 are bad odds unless you have an equalizer

      1. avatar CUJO THE DOG OF WAR says:

        I gave up on understanding him, brother. He briefly acknowledges kinesics and totally misses proxemics, both are academy 101 for defensive interaction with a suspect-giving body signals and keeping your distance. He must have found a new book at Barnes and Noble.

        1. avatar Buuurr says:

          True words, Cujo.

  15. avatar Magoo says:

    TSgt B says: “Magoo: As usual, you just had to add an inflammatory, asinine statement to try to rile the righteous. You need to seek some serious help, dude.”

    I don’t need any help. As long as we are offering each other advice, you need to go find some pie for your piehole. There was never a need for a gun in the above situation. The shooter is very lucky he’s not going to prison for a long stretch.

  16. avatar adam fox says:

    i would like to say fuck you daniel you are not about shit hence your time to blog all day. i wasnt charged with shit i will talk about whatever the fuck i want
    wherever the fuck i want. quit trying to get some shine off my situation

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